Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

[Koiba]

IT'S LITERALLY THE SAME THING AS UPPERDASH. Constant use of it will get you baited, son. Dash and Shock have th exact same frame data.

I think what he's trying to point out that us Dank Pit mains shouldn't be too reckless with our side bs


Because when it comes to killing and general usage Upper<<<<<Electro

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fair is.....ok off an AC. Anyone with a good dash grab can attempt to catch it. Like Ryu. Ftilt is DEF not safe. -14 on block?!?! Atrocious. Bair is better for sure. Also when I played Chompy I noticed I was able to duck alot of SH aerials from Pit then whiff punish. Def something to consider in the match.

If Pit is limited to AC aerials with meh hitboxes (cept Bair) that drives my point home that Ryu CAN challenge at that range and be rewarded. And a miscalculation in that zone from either char is bad, but Ryu will def get more out of an error on Pits part then vice versa.

Not that it even matters. Pit should be running away. Engaging in footsies is not how Pit goes about playing this match. Or any char vs Ryu for that matter.

 

[MKchouy]

I think what he's trying to point out that us Dank Pit mains shouldn't be too reckless with our side bs


Because when it comes to killing and general usage Upper<<<<<Electro

Exactly what Koiba said, I'm saying side B is extremely risky vs Ryu so I'd rather just not use it as much and have arrows instead with pit. .

Also like EmblemLord said, f tilt is NOT safe on shield lol, and fair is okay here and there for spacing. Bair on shield is safe and full hop dair is safe.

 

[MKchouy]

Exactly what Koiba said, I'm saying side B is extremely risky vs Ryu so I'd rather just not use it as much and have arrows instead with pit. .

Also like EmblemLord said, f tilt is NOT safe on shield lol, and fair is okay here and there for spacing but is certainly punishable. Bair on shield is safe and full hop dair is safe.

We do a pretty good job juggling Ryu and forcing him to the ledge. The pits can also survive things like his up tilt to dair at the ledge to percents that almost every other character dies to. I think the MU is completely even until it comes time to kill, where really nothing kills midstage besides upsmash and rogue f smash which is extremely punishable. No tilts or aerials kill midstage until 150 at least (and front hit of down smash) so unlike other characters, we have to deal with rage Ryu more often than characters who have killing aerials/tilts/kill confirms/dangerous projectiles.


I only give Ryu the slight edge because it is very common for us to deal with rage Ryu.

Edit: Oops, didn't mean to double post, was supposed to just be an edit... dunno if I'm blind or what but I don't see where to delete the first post

 

[Sensane]

MKchouy
1. You're adding nothing to the discussion by repeating what's already been stated; please don't repeat other people.
2. Don't worry about the double post; it's not possible to get in a lo of trouble for doing so as long as it isn't excessive.

 

[MKchouy]

I only added alternatives to the misinformation you spread about f tilt and fair being safe on shield such as full hop dairing.


Additionally I just wanted to clarify our strengths since I originally made it sound like the MU was pretty awful when really it comes down to who takes the first stock.

 

[Sensane]

Yeah yeah, but everyone else made it pretty clear. Don't take it to close to heart though. People repeating themselves (and especially other people) is my number one pet peeve.

Edit: I just now realized that he meant that the side b isn't worth it because of lag and I must've thought that he meant that the lag is different from upperdash. IDK where I got that misconception.

 

[CHOMPY]

Seeing as this thread has been dead for 2 weeks, I feel its time to move onto different characters.

Tell me what you guys think before we move onto discussing different characters.

Here's the MU ratio.

-1
+0
+1

 

[Sensane]

I am not going down like this; I've got a couple more things to say:

Here's how one should properly orbitar gimp ike's aether:
1. Hop above sword
2. Immediately orbitar

No short hop nairing ryu; use short hop dairs. Frame 9 aint bad for an aerial.

Edit: Also, I'd say that Ryu is more even and that Megaman and Ike's mu score should be switched.

 

[NoahZark]

Personally, I agree with these matchup ratios.
While I don't have much trouble against Ryu, -1 is still a pretty even mu, and Ryu does have the advantage in kill power by far.
Megaman would be the only one I'd object to, because I have always had trouble against good megaman players, but it seems like everyone else agrees with +0 or thinks it's easier, so maybe I'm just being a scrub.
As for the Ike matchup, I definitely agree with it being a +1, because Ike is pretty easy to combo and juggle, and we edgeguard him better than he edgeguards us. Plus, I also think we have the advantage in neutral too.

 

[CHOMPY]

Here are the three characters we will be discussing as of today.

 

[Sensane]

Donkey is easily a 60:40 DK favor. His limbs outrange us and we can't reliably get a kill on him until around 180 or so. Also helps that it's likely he'll kill us before we kill him.

 

[NoahZark]

Donkey is easily a 60:40 DK favor. His limbs outrange us and we can't reliably get a kill on him until around 180 or so. Also helps that it's likely he'll kill us before we kill him.

Keep in mind that though DK has these advantages, arrows can force the ape to approach (and his approach is ok, but not great), and that once we get in (preferably with a grab to d-throw), we can juggle DK for days.

 

[Sensane]

I know, I know, but you can't just say that arrows always work as a tool to force an opponent to approach. If that was the case, then we would have so many advantages.

 

[NoahZark]

In many cases, yes, arrows aren't great to force approaches, but DK doesn't have a projectile, so it is much more effective in this mu. By the way, I agree with Sensane saying DK wins, but I was kinda saying that as advice to people who didn't know how to deal with DK
I should have made that clear before, though.

 

[krazySyko]

I think it's a stretch to say DK wins 60:40. Yes he outranges us and we have trouble killing him, but he also has a hard time landing against us, is combo food, and his frontal options if he's in the air aren't too great since he won't have access to bair. While I don't know the specifics too well, I've seen it said a bit that DK has one of the hardest times of any character getting off the ledge, so if we can abuse his bad landing and potentially force him to go to the ledge and keep him there as long as we can I can see it being a bit better. Isn't his recovery supposed to be decently exploitable as well?

 

[Sensane]

I think it's a stretch to say DK wins 60:40. Yes he outranges us and we have trouble killing him, but he also has a hard time landing against us, is combo food, and his frontal options if he's in the air aren't too great since he won't have access to bair. While I don't know the specifics too well, I've seen it said a bit that DK has one of the hardest times of any character getting off the ledge, so if we can abuse his bad landing and potentially force him to go to the ledge and keep him there as long as we can I can see it being a bit better. Isn't his recovery supposed to be decently exploitable as well?

Landing isn't as big of an issue as you'd think. DK does have trouble landing, but he can surprise us with a nair or even dair or aerial down b. Being combo food isn't much of an importance either since even cloud is debatably combo food in some situations. Also, he has more aerial tools than just bair. He has nair, which is just as fast and has quite a bit of priority.
His recovery also isn't as exploitable as it seems since the best way anyone can kill it is with either a semi spike or flat out going for a spike offstage, with the latter being a big risk anyways. And plot twist, we have o ly one semi spike that likely won't even hit if poorly spaced and a frame one spike hitbox on our dair which is a risky aerial to use to begin with.
Even if these factors weren't so bad to begin with it'd still be at least a slight disadvantage because when a single character's design exploits one of your biggest weaknesses (bad kill power) then it is not a matchup that you're gonna have an easy time with. Doesn't help that he can normally kill you before you can get him to higher percents.

 

[NoahZark]

Just labbed the DK mu a little and found something out: a way to edgeguard DK is with side-b (electroshock is preferable, obviously). It beats out DK's up-b when spaced correctly, and is easier to use than fair imo.

 

[krazySyko]

I actually brought the MU up to the discord and the consensus seemed to be that it was even. General reasons being again that DK has a lot of trouble landing and can't really do so without taking a big risk (dair and down-b are slow and I believe unsafe, and nair doesn't necessarily have the best coverage for landing), and that he has a huge problem resetting to neutral when he's at disadvantage. We can also cover his ledge options extremely well.

Ding-dong is the obvious biggest thing to watch out for, but I could see him actually having some trouble killing, at least safely, if you can live past the percents where it works. Bair edgeguards are definitely scary though. Overall I could definitely see it being even or maybe slight disadvantage if that.

Anyways, anyone got any opinions on Samus/Shulk?

 

[Sensane]

I actually brought the MU up to the discord and the consensus seemed to be that it was even. General reasons being again that DK has a lot of trouble landing and can't really do so without taking a big risk (dair and down-b are slow and I believe unsafe, and nair doesn't necessarily have the best coverage for landing), and that he has a huge problem resetting to neutral when he's at disadvantage. We can also cover his ledge options extremely well.

Ding-dong is the obvious biggest thing to watch out for, but I could see him actually having some trouble killing, at least safely, if you can live past the percents where it works. Bair edgeguards are definitely scary though. Overall I could definitely see it being even or maybe slight disadvantage if that.

Anyways, anyone got any opinions on Samus/Shulk?

Did I not clear up his landing issue? Eh, no one listens to me anyways .

Samus I know is a win, but not by how much. IDK about shulk.

 

[krazySyko]

You're right that he has options to try to land, but in my opinion you downplayed how much of a problem it can be. The key thing being that his options either don't have the best coverage for landing or are slow and unsafe, so he can't do it safely.

Anyways, with shulk I kinda get the feeling that whoever can get a notable lead at first is at a big advantage, since he can camp and survive with shield/speed/jump and force us to chase him down if he gets lead, but he's in trouble if he has to approach since his frame data is lacking. I might be wrong on that but it's the impression I've gotten from playing with a shulk at my locals. I'm curious how well we can edgeguard him too, since I haven't practiced it much.

 

[NoahZark]

You know, after playing the DK matchup, I see it now as a even matchup (tbh, I could even see Pit winning). But we've said enough about that, so I'm not gonna waste you time with that. I have some experience in the Samus matchup though, so I'll share it with you all.

Pit(s) definitely win this matchup. Probably +1, but you could stretch it to a +2 potentially. Missiles are easy to get around, Samus's tilts are not that great for stopping ground approaches, and our fair beats hers (because hers starts at a weird angle), so even though we don't have a great approach, getting in is pretty easy in this mu. Once we do get in, Samus is surprisingly easy to juggle. If you stay below her, you can react to airdodge or dair. As for bombs, they do help her mix up her recovery, but you can also react to them- they don't resent neutral, even if she gets to the ground safely, she will probably be close to Pit, and that puts Pit at the advantage. You can't really edgeguard Samus, but that's not an issue if you just keep winning neutral (I also get a lot of kills from bait airdodge up-smash, just an idea.)
Samus has few good tools. She can edgeguard Pit fairly well with dair and fair, but if you mixup your recovery, you should be fine, and Pit wins neutral anyways, so she should be offstage way more than Pit. Charge shot is also scary, but if you do get the read (or even react to it, but that's kinda hard because orbiters have crap startup and the charge shot is pretty fast), it's pretty much goodbye Samus(and it feels great to do that). Shielding the charge shot works fine though, but watch out for shield break.
A note is though: Samus does have arguably the best shield break setups in the game, so those are something to keep in mind.

 

[Sensane]

Nah, I'm not downplaying anything. If anything, you're overplaying it. Yes, he can't land, but I'm considering everything in a matchup. How is it fighting him ontage? How is it gimping him? Who wins the neutral game? Are we safe when recovering? Is he safe while recovering? What options should we consider going over? What options should he consider going over? And remember I also said that we can't get the kill on him reliably until around really high percents like 170/180. I don't think that pit generally has as bad as a time as I thought he does (it's more or less dark pit that has a -1 as his arm is less effective than pit's inthis case), but if you don't think it's a cautious matchup solely because of the fact that he can't land then you really have a somewhat shallow understanding of advantages and disadvantages. I'm not saying this to be rude, I'm saying this because you yourself kinda admit it.

 

[krazySyko]

I never said it was ONLY because of that or that you didn't have to be cautious, I brought up landing again because you said nobody listened to you so I went into more detail on why I thought it was a somewhat bigger deal than you thought. Doesn't mean it's the only thing I ever considered.

I also brought up a number of other things like dk having a lot of trouble resetting neutral and getting out of disadvantage, us ledge trapping him very well and being able to punish him very well due to his size when we do get in, among other things.

You brought up a lot of the disadvantages we have and they are definitely relevant and reason to be cautious, but I didn't think it was enough to make it 60:40 and after seeing what people said on discord too I said I thought it was closer to even or just a slight disadvantage. You even said you don't think it's as bad as you initially thought too, so really not much more point in continuing this anyways.

 

[Sensane]

You do know that I was joking when I said no one listened to me, right? You do know that I said Dark Pit still has a hard time with this mu, right?

Eh, still, I see what you're saying, hon. I just always consider the possibility that we guess wrong in how a character is going to land. Nothing wrong with what you're saying at all.

 

[NoahZark]

I'll try a little with the Shulk matchup now.
To me it seems even, or with Pit having a +1. My main experience in this matchup has been from YouTube (shoutouts to a match that featured CHOMPY that was helpful), so its not first-hand, but I think I got the general idea.
In neutral, I think Pit wins. Shulk has ok approaches, but I think that Pits are better. Shulk's main anit-ground move is dtilt, which isn't safe on shield if you're close enough, so running up shielding is effective, it either just puts you closer to Shulk, or you can potentially get a grab on Shulk (and if he ftilts, you can definitely get a grab). All Shulk's safe approaches are from the air, and we have two counters to that: shield or challenge with an aerial. If Shulk lands with an aerial too close to Pit (when Pit's shielding), we can get a grab, or he can make it safe on shield, but they are also pretty easy to powershield, because of high startup (and after powershielding, it's a simple punish). Challenging with an aerial also works well because the frame data of aerials is definitively in Pit's favor. Other notes about the neutral is that arrows aren't great(Shulk can get around them well), and that Shulk's approach gets better with buster, jump, and speed (because of increased damage and better mobility), and gets worse with shield and smash (decreased damage means less shield pressure and less mobility).
As for the offstage game, it's even. Shulk can edgeguard Pit pretty well, but his edgeguarding is kinda predictable, especially without jump mode. Shulk does have tools to make him hard to edgeguard (up-b's large hitbox can be especially tricky), but without a jump he becomes much easier to edgeguard.
Overall, I do think this is pretty even, with Pit having a slight advantage. Though I also wouldn't worry about it too much. For Shulk apparently having so much potential, people rarely pull out anything hugely surprising, so as long as you keep your cool, you should be fine.

 

[Y2Kay]

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...ark-pit-9-11-9-18.438657/page-2#post-21442114

C'mon ole friends, do me a solid! Come participate!

 

[Sensane]

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...ark-pit-9-11-9-18.438657/page-2#post-21442114

C'mon ole friends, do me a solid! Come participate!

Wish I could, but I don't have that much to say aside from that Greni's SH nair can easily be beaten by PP utilt from us. Also whoever can combo the other person first wins the neutral.

 

[Sensane]

CHOMPY I think I killed the pit boards again.

Can we all just agree that the dk mu is 40:60 DK favor? Or at the very least 45:55 dong favor? And don't say "he can't land". If you really think about, who can actually land safely in this game? Even orbitars can be tricky to land with if used predictably. And before you ask, yes, I'm playing the matchup correctly; I'm keeping him in the air for as long as possible; I'm camping him; I'm prevening him from approaching......and I still have trouble when dk gets in and is still living at like 180.......while he kills me with a back throw at 100 by the ledge. Or a ding dong at 65.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Mmmm as an advid dk AND pit player I figure I'd throw in my 2 cents. Pits biggest issue with this MU is how volatile it is to play. With ding-dong, giant punch, and Bair we have to play very consistently. At any moment during the match DK could get a randy kill at 50%. At the same time though pit should be in advantage state more often than dk and as profusely stated can catch dk's landings with relative ease.

I would honestly rather be the dk in this match just because of the ease of killing. You have options at the ledge like beefy up B to get % on pit even if it does mean eating a dash attack. And ya pit will inevitably rack up damage faster than you get damage on him, but your heavy and his killing options don't really scare dk that much. What I'm saying is, you have time to find a kill before he gets you to a worrysome percent. Slight advantage for Dk in my opinion.

 

[CHOMPY]

Can we agree that the MU for is 40:60 DK's favor?

We can still continue discussing and


In replace of discussing DK, we can discuss Corrin.

 

[Sensane]

Can we agree that the MU for is 40:60 DK's favor?

We can still continue discussing and


In replace of discussing DK, we can discuss Corrin.

YES THANK YOU!!! SOMEONE THAT UNDERSTANDS MY SIDE FOR ONCE!!!

Samus I've finally gotten some actual experience for, so yall know what that means:

• Play a rushdown playstyle and prevent her from charging her charge shot.
• Don't challenge her dash attack unless if it's spaced incorrectly, in which case just grab.
• Make sure that samus wants to grab you by playing around in shield a lot so you can get accustomed to baiting grabs. I know this sounds unconventional, but trust me, it works wonders.
• I know it's tempting, but do not make her take her clothes off, otherwise you will die to this: and everyone knows that this is one of if not our worst matchup.
• Though in a sense play her like you would play the zss matchup (though why would you playing pit in a matchup where he gets destroyed?)
• If samus does get a charge shot, unlike with mewtwo, it's okay to reflect a charge shot. At worst she blocks it and at best we can score a free kill.
• Avoid duck hunt.....just don't go there.
• If you go bf or dl, be wary of her uair strings and screwattack oos.
• Be cautious because of SA OOS in general.
• Screwattack is an alright channel, but I can only recommend watching death battle because it's their only remotely interesting show imo (even if they get some fights completely wrong (tracer vs scout).)
• Don't fret so much if she's harrasing you with homing missiles. Just full hop reflect them and move on
• Don't arrow camp.
• Just know that samus may bait a shield with a bomb and try to break it with a charge shot bomb combination. Try to jab out of it cause she has to land before shooting you and the bomb won't go off until about 2 seconds.

Shulk I still think is underrated for no real reason, but it is still more in our favor, though.

Ugh, not that dragon cosplaying tryhard that butchered Cam Clarke's natural talent (though thank you mods for allowing me to make this: http://gamebanana.com/sounds/32266). For one, it's either even or slightly in Kamui's favor imo (do not make me say his localized name, it is terrible and you know it) and another thing, notes:

• When Kamui is retreating with side b, chase him down and punish with dash attacks.
• Full hop dair can safely avoid counter.
• Always reflect dragon shot; whether or not he tries to follow it up with something the shot will hit him back. Run up and followup with something afterwards.
• Kamui can be footstool-daired.
• I live in Indiana and I still don't like corn that much. MD/VA colleges and/or colleges outside of this open space with little in it please accept me. I will never take any answer that isn't "hey you are accepted into our college" or something along those lines.
• Uair is one of Kamui's most potent kill moves. Orbitar land.
• Arrows either trade or beat dragon shot.
• What's with all the dragons in his moveset anyway? Friggin edgy tryhard.
• Although sometimes moves can bypass orbitars if they have enough range, for some reason kamui's fsmash will never beat orbitars, even when spaced.
• Seriously though, check out my sound hack for him? It's pretty schmexy imo.
• Don't challenge his up b when recovering; your edgeguards will just get beaten out by it. If you're gonna go for anything, space a bair stage spike.

 

[Sensane]

M88888 bring bring this thread back to laifu!

 

[CHOMPY]

Against Samus

The things you want to bait her to do are using the Screw Attack OoS. Force a reaction when you fox trot towards her, while she's charging her beam. A lot of Samus like to do a drop down fair off the ledge, so fox trot away and punish that with a rising bair. Don't bother doing the dash and shield because you will get conditioned to getting shield grabbed. Whats worse is Samus might see that and she can pull off the shield break with the bomb and fully charged plasma beam. Mix that up by either jumping back, or rolling back to see what kind of reaction you get. You can force her to come to you by doing a full hop arrow. Be wary of her falling uair, so counter it by pivot grabbing, or just hold shield until she lands and punish accordingly.

 

[Sensane]

So in other words foxtrot everywhere? Kk. That's all I'm good at anyway :,(

You really shouldn't be worrying about bombs too much if you're already in your shield because the bomb takes a few seconds to go off. Also it's one of the few times where rolling behind samus will actually work properly.

Also I recently found out that a spaced dair spike can beat kamui's up b, but the timing is REEEEEAAAALLLLLYYYY strict (and our spike is barely out of marth tier in terms of how bad the spike hitbox is), so a spaced bair stage spike is better to go for. And at low percents sometimes the player will think that they could go into a tech situation and then they'll end up air dodging and fall to their doom.

 

[Mini_Mac]

Can anyone share some insight on how to fight a campy Pit as Cloud? I have trouble with this one because charging Limit doesn't work as an "approach forcing" option here because Pit can angle his bow's anywhere unlike moves like Fox and Falco's laser and the range on the bow is incredible. No matter where I am, I almost always get stuck with the annoying bows when trying to charge Limit.

Now keep in mind, in this MU and all the others, I always menuver around the stage and have some interaction (attack) with my opponent somehow since staying in the same place and just mindlessly moving from the left side of the stage to the right side or platform to platform is straight up predictable and no where in my favor (and it's scrub).

When I try to approach Pit, I can never seem to land the correct spacing for me to go in for a punish after a perfect shielded bow. Even at high percents, sometimes I don't even want to approach him because his smash attacks come out extremely fast.

So yeah. Any tips in this MU?

 

[Sensane]

*random dude posts something in this thread*

*wakes up*

*reads post to find it not worth my time*

*goes back to sleep*