Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

NoahZark

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So no one has said much about the Villager matchup yet, so I'll take a stab at the subject.
The matchup against Villager is disadvantageous for Pit. In my opinion, I'd call it a -1. Villager can out-camp Pit pretty easily using his rocket, and fair/bair. Let's face it, reflecting the rocket is often not the best decision, because the Villager can punish Pit for that, making one of Pits best anti-camping moves not as useful. Also, Villager edgeguards the crap out of Pit. His fair/bair/nair/even dair all hit Pit out of his recovery, making it very unsafe for Pit to go offstage.
Really, the only redeeming qualities about this matchup is that you can reflect bowling ball/tree for pretty early kills, you could potentially snipe villagers baloons with arrows, and with Villagers up+b not having a hitbox, Pit can harass his recovery and try to go for a stage spike.

Overall, I find this matchup difficult and annoying (though not unwinnable).
 

xfateful

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In my opinion, the Pit/Villager match-up is even. Villager shuts down aerial approaches very well with his zoning tools. However, Pit does not need to approach with aerials because his ground game is amazing. Shield is very strong for Pit since Villager needs to commit quite a bit in order to grab. This in turn allows Pit to shield Villager's projectiles and shield grab while remaining relatively safe. On top of that, most of Pit's aerials beat out Villager's f-air and b-air which mitigates Villager's zoning options against Pit if you do try to approach in the air. Therefore, I believe Pit wins the neutral game in this match-up. And the key to beating Villager is to beat Villager in the neutral as it is very rare to net an early stock from edge-guarding or spiking Villager (especially with our pretty weak spike).

Of course Villager has advantages over Pit. Most notably, Villager's edge-guarding tools are extremely powerful against Pit due his linear recovery options. A charged f-smash from the ledge while Pit recovering under the ledge can kill Pit at extremely low percents as shown here: https://youtu.be/I0MN3CzxmuA?t=661

Thus, it is vital to mix-up Pit's recovery. In my opinion, using side-b to recover is safer than up-b due to its super armor and hitbox. Being able to tech consistently is very important as stage spikes can and will likely happen a lot. Villager also has a lot of ledge tricks he can do but knowing which moves cover which ledge option can help the Pit player avoid a couple of his setups. Recovering fast is also good so that Villager does not have the time to set up.

This is a match-up is seen a lot in the Japanese scene, most notably through Earth and Ranai. Despite the fact that Ranai is the best player in Japan and possesses strength equivalent to top players like ZeRo, Nairo, and Dabuz (after all, he almost beat ZeRo and Dabuz against abysmal match-ups), Earth is one of the only players in Japan that has a relatively even set count against Ranai. For example, Earth won Pre-KVO by double eliminating Ranai.
Winners set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIuoSwWQrho
Grand finals set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhQbLOER0Y

As a player, winning the neutral game is pivotal to Earth's game play; therefore, it is not surprising that he has taken many sets off of Ranai's Villager. Meanwhile, Paseriman, another Japanese Pit, has trouble against Ranai because he is not consistently winning the neutral and ends up getting edge-guarded as shown in this set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b8Wejc-qqI

All in all, I think it's even. Pit has the advantage in neutral and Villager has the advantage when edge-guarding. While Pit is not rewarded in the neutral as much as Villager is rewarded when edge-guarding, Villager has to beat Pit in neutral, a place where Pit has the advantage in, just to get Pit into an edge-guarding position. Therefore, the outcome of the battle will largely depend on who can get the reads and outplay the player.
 

CHOMPY

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Villager :4villager:

Neutral:

Dash shield is a very effective strategy aganst Villager because it can block the slingshots, plus you'll have a much easier time getting in their face. When you see the Lloy Rocket come out, you can grab Villager and not get hit from the Lloy Rocket, due to Pit's slippery dash grab speed. Remember, the Lloyd Rocket's hitbox doesn't activate until it launches, so you can also go for a dash attack if you want (if Villager is grounded). All of Villagers attacks on the ground are slow and easy to dodge, except for his jab. When Villager does jab, roll right through him and go for either a jab or grab.

When you go for a grab, your better off going for either a uair, fair, and a RAR bair as your follow up. Villagers nair can break out of Pit's dair to nair combo, since it comes out so quick (as long as Villager can react quickly).

Landing:

The best way to land safely if he chases you in the air is to simply use the orbitars. Don't use the orbitars too much. Otherwise, your basically asking to get grabbed. If Villager tried to hit you use a bowling ball, you can use the orbitar and it will kill Villager as early as 30% (I wanna say).

Offstage:

Villager's recovery is very godlike, so don't bother going offstage against him. If you do, you'll be losing stage control and ultimately let Villager take over the the stage before you come back and land safely. Shooting your arrows can bait Villager to pocket. However at the last second of his pocket move, you can fire off the arrow and hit him for free. The way you bait Villager to pocket is moving your arrow up and down before firing. Pit's dair won't do you any good, since Villager can come back on stage freely anyway.

Villager can't gimp Pit, thanks to Pit's godlike up B recovery. Therefore, moves like Villagers nair, turnips (that sends players at a awkward angle), slingshots, etc. are of no use to Pit in terms of gimping him, but would be used more for racking up damage.

Recovering:

The hardest part about the whole matchup is dodging the bowling ball. Pit can be so far ahead in percentage that one bowling ball can simply turn the whole match around (similar to Little Mac's KO punch).

There are three ways you can dodge the bowling ball.

1) Airdodge the bowling ball, and then immediately up B to hug the stage.

2) Use Wings of Icarus to fly over the bowling ball (although I don't reccomend using it that much)

3) Instead of using the up B right under the stage, try going at an angle to possibly dodge it.


Overall, Villager should be a fairly easy matchup for Pit, as long as you know the matchup and play it patiently. As long as you don't challenge Villager offstage and follow Villagers landing patterns, you should be alright. Don't get hasty when Villager is trying to camp you with slingshots. Take your time and go in when you feel its right.

I would like to say its a +1 in :4pit::4darkpit: favor

:4villager: (60:40) Pit's favor
 

CHOMPY

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Seeing as though the character discussions has died out. I'm going to say we should move onto talking about different characters

:4pit:vs.

:4palutena:+1
:4villager:+1
:rosalina:+0

:4darkpit:vs.

:4palutena:+1
:4villager:+1
:rosalina:+1
 
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Wintropy

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Just want to say, if you're using the ratios I posted on these matchups to determine the final score, I've changed my opinion on it. I talked to @DialNouns about it and we both think it's -1 for Pit and 0 for Dark Pit.

Don't know if others agree or disagree on that, but that's my opinion.
 

CHOMPY

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Just want to say, if you're using the ratios I posted on these matchups to determine the final score, I've changed my opinion on it. I talked to @DialNouns about it and we both think it's -1 for Pit and 0 for Dark Pit.

Don't know if others agree or disagree on that, but that's my opinion.
If you don't mind putting the matchup ratios up on the front page, go for it.

For now, lets talk about what characters we should discuss and then begin the discussion for tomorrow.
 

CHOMPY

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I combined the votes, and added a character of my choice.

Lets begin discussing these characters!

Luigi :4luigi:

Jigglypuff :4jigglypuff:

Lucas :4lucas:
 

Wintropy

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:4luigi:

I've played this match many times both in and out of bracket, so I think I have a decent amount of experience with it. Just gonna jot down my thoughts real quick:

I think Pit has an advantage in this matchup, but not a very big one. I'd say it's +1, though there's a case to be made for it being more even than that. Pit has a few assets in this matchup: his superior neutral game (better mobility enables him to play good footsies, plus he has disjoints and a solid grab game that rivals Luigi's) and edgeguarding (arrow sniping and disjoints can hinder Luigi's relatively predictable recovery), I think, ensure he just about outdoes Luigi in this matchup.

On the flip side, Luigi has his own strengths that can't be ignored: notably, his grab game is still very effective despite being heavily nerfed and he still gets great mileage out of d-throw thanks to his air game's speed and combo potential (though b-throw is also a kill throw at high percents). Making a mistake in neutral can be costly, since Luigi can kill or do heavy damage with his fast and powerful smashes and sweetspot up-b. Even boxing with him can be difficult due to his jab (note that jab 2 can confirm into grab if you don't intercept it or DI) and n-air (both frame 3). This if offset by his poor mobility and weak approach options outside of fireball, so if you can wall him out, there's not much he can do - this is the crux of the matchup and what keeps him from dominating it. What you want to do, then, is optimise spacing him out in neutral and avoiding situations that can be punished.

I think Pit has to play very patiently, Luigi's fireballs can be surprisingly frustrating and Pit wants to stay the hell away from that grab if he can help it. You want to try and powershield the fireballs if you can, but don't feel compelled to rush in and punish, Luigi thrives on baiting you out and then reading your approach. Luigi can really get in good damage with his grab and absurdly fast aerial combos, and he can be a demon in his own space and if he gets momentum going, but he's held back by how close-ranged he is since he has poor air mobility and no (notable) disjoints. It's not too difficult to box out Luigi in neutral, since Pit has better mobility and good disjoints, but Luigi can punish mistakes very effectively with 'nado, smashes or sweetspot up-b. That and Luigi's n-air can make it difficult to force the advantage, since it can break combos and kill if there's even a tiny opening. Go for grab followups if you get the opportunity, but don't try to force the followups: not only can his n-air break the combos, as mentioned, but his floatiness can make it easy for him to DI out of combos in the first place.

Off-stage, Pit should have the advantage too. Luigi has a few ways of recovering (up-b, side-b and down-b), but it's not difficult to read their trajectory and punish accordingly, and arrow sniping can mess him up if he has to recover from a distance. His 'nado and b-air can punish Pit similarly to how Mario and Doc's can, but it shouldn't be difficult to keep him out with disjoints and mix up your recovery so he can't get the punish. He can't really afford to go deep off-stage in the way that Pit can, so he's going to primarily fight and get his kills on-stage.

Pit should have the upper hand if he keeps his cool and plays to his strengths, essentially just denying Luigi the opportunity to get close and do heavy damage. I think it's in Pit's favour if optimally played, but you need to be cognisant of Luigi's options the entire time. Even a small mistake can be punished heavily, and Luigi is great at pressing home for big damage when he finds an opening.

Gonna tag my good buddy M0$$Y M0$$Y to offer his own two cents, just in case there's anything he wants to say.

As for :4jigglypuff:...

I have to say I don't have much experience in this matchup, but just based on observation, it shouldn't be difficult for Pit. Puff has better air mobility and prides herself on being an aerial wall, but Pit's disjoints trade well with her aerials and she doesn't have the damage output or kill power to really threaten Pit if he plays patiently. You don't want to rush in throw out things sporadically, you want to bait her into the open and challenge her with disjoints and get in damage wherever you can. Puff can stall for days if she wants to, so don't feel compelled to chase her: she wants to duck and weave to make her more difficult to hit, then jump in to punish when she can. Take it easy and play patiently. She will have to challenge you eventually. She shouldn't be a problem off-stage either, since it's mostly an extension of her neutral game: weaving and throwing out aerials to pressure and provoke you into doing something silly.

I won't offer a final score, since I'm just going mostly by observation and a bit of theory, but I think it's a very doable matchup if you're patient and can challenge her in the air. I think Koiba Koiba knows more about this matchup than I do, so I'm going to tag her and see what she says.

EDIT: Fixed typos and stuff.
 
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M0$$Y

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Pit
Pros:

Disjoint can beat out most of Luigi’s aerials and approach options
Arrows force Luigi to approach
Can punish Luigi’s poor aerial mobility with Usmash and aerials
Can gimp early with arrows. Can also go off stage due to multiple jumps and good distance on his recovery.

Cons:
Dies relatively early to Luigi’s strong smash attacks
Pit’s height makes him vulnerable to being combed by Luigi
Luigi can nair out of many combos
Luigi has better frame data on certain aerials which can make it difficult for Pit to get rid of him once he gets in.

Imo Pit wants to play defensively in neutral by forcing Luigi to approach with arrows and not giving Luigi any openings to get a grab and begin his combo strings. Luigi can struggle to get in vs characters with disjoints and although Pit doesn’t have a huge disjoint on his aerials it is enough to make things difficult if the Luigi player is impatient. Nair OoS is a good option for Pit should he find himself stuck in shield as nair will clank with fireballs. When landing be cautious of Luigi’s UpSmash as it has deceptive range over and behind Luigi’s head.Luigi's landing is also rather punishable due his poor air mobility, Pit's up smash will beat out any move Luigi can throw out beneath him and side b can also be useful. Getting Luigi off stage at any percent puts Pit in an advantageous position as Pit’s arrows and aerials can make it very difficult for Luigi to get back to the stage. Forcing Luigi to recover low can make him vulnerable to Pit’s dair or being stage spiked via bair. Likewise Luigi also has options for intercepting Pit’s upB with dair (which has a potent spikebox around the shoes) or nair which has a relatively longlasting hitbox (frame 3 to 31 faik). Fireballs are one of Luigi’s safer tools in neutral and can intercept arrows or force Pit into shield. Luigi’s fireballs come out 3 frames faster but do not have the reach of Pit’s arrows.
 

Koiba

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:4luigi:

I've played this match many times both in and out of bracket, so I think I have a decent amount of experience with it. Just gonna jot down my thoughts real quick:

I think Pit has an advantage in this matchup, but not a very big one. I'd say it's +1, though there's a case to be made for it being more even than that. Pit has a few assets in this matchup: his superior neutral game (better mobility enables him to play good footsies, plus he has disjoints and a solid grab game that rivals Luigi's) and edgeguarding (arrow sniping and disjoints can hinder Luigi's relatively predictable recovery), I think, ensure he just about outdoes Luigi in this matchup.

On the flip side, Luigi has his own strengths that can't be ignored: notably, his grab game is still very effective despite being heavily nerfed and he still gets great mileage out of d-throw thanks to his air game's speed and combo potential (though b-throw is also a kill throw at high percents). Making a mistake in neutral can be costly, since Luigi can kill or do heavy damage with his fast and powerful smashes and sweetspot up-b. Even boxing with him can be difficult due to his jab (note that jab 2 can confirm into grab if you don't intercept it or DI) and n-air (both frame 3). This if offset by his poor mobility and weak approach options outside of fireball, so if you can wall him out, there's not much he can do - this is the crux of the matchup and what keeps him from dominating it. What you want to do, then, is optimise spacing him out in neutral and avoiding situations that can be punished.

I think Pit has to play very patiently, Luigi's fireballs can be surprisingly frustrating and Pit wants to stay the hell away from that grab if he can help it. You want to try and powershield the fireballs if you can, but don't feel compelled to rush in and punish, Luigi thrives on baiting you out and then reading your approach. Luigi can really get in good damage with his grab and absurdly fast aerial combos, and he can be a demon in his own space and if he gets momentum going, but he's held back by how close-ranged he is since he has poor air mobility and no (notable) disjoints. It's not too difficult to box out Luigi in neutral, since Pit has better mobility and good disjoints, but Luigi can punish mistakes very effectively with 'nado, smashes or sweetspot up-b. That and Luigi's n-air can make it difficult to force the advantage, since it can break combos and kill if there's even a tiny opening. Go for grab followups if you get the opportunity, but don't try to force the followups: not only can his n-air break the combos, as mentioned, but his floatiness can make it easy for him to DI out of combos in the first place.

Off-stage, Pit should have the advantage too. Luigi has a few ways of recovering (up-b, side-b and down-b), but it's not difficult to read their trajectory and punish accordingly, and arrow sniping can mess him up if he has to recover from a distance. His 'nado and b-air can punish Pit similarly to how Mario and Doc's can, but it shouldn't be difficult to keep him out with disjoints and mix up your recovery so he can't get the punish. He can't really afford to go deep off-stage in the way that Pit can, so he's going to primarily fight and get his kills on-stage.

Pit should have the upper hand if he keeps his cool and plays to his strengths, essentially just denying Luigi the opportunity to get close and do heavy damage. I think it's in Pit's favour if optimally played, but you need to be cognisant of Luigi's options the entire time. Even a small mistake can be punished heavily, and Luigi is great at pressing home for big damage when he finds an opening.

Gonna tag my good buddy M0$$Y M0$$Y to offer his own two cents, just in case there's anything he wants to say.

As for :4jigglypuff:...

I have to say I don't have much experience in this matchup, but just based on observation, it shouldn't be difficult for Pit. Puff has better air mobility and prides herself on being an aerial wall, but Pit's disjoints trade well with her aerials and she doesn't have the damage output or kill power to really threaten Pit if he plays patiently. You don't want to rush in throw out things sporadically, you want to bait her into the open and challenge her with disjoints and get in damage wherever you can. Puff can stall for days if she wants to, so don't feel compelled to chase her: she wants to duck and weave to make her more difficult to hit, then jump in to punish when she can. Take it easy and play patiently. She will have to challenge you eventually. She shouldn't be a problem off-stage either, since it's mostly an extension of her neutral game: weaving and throwing out aerials to pressure and provoke you into doing something silly.

I won't offer a final score, since I'm just going mostly by observation and a bit of theory, but I think it's a very doable matchup if you're patient and can challenge her in the air. I think Koiba Koiba knows more about this matchup than I do, so I'm going to tag her and see what she says.

EDIT: Fixed typos and stuff.
Yeah, I think puff struggles quite a bit, especially if you spacing you disjoints really well. Puff's playstyle is just weaving back and out with aerials like you said lol.

But I don't know it TOO well so sed. Might make some points later if I remember
Just don't do any laggy moves when you're at 50% 'kay? :secretkpop:

And her nair is pretty deadly offstage
 
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NoahZark

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On the :4jigglypuff:matchup:

Not very hard for Pit. Probably a +2.
In neutral: Pit has the advantage. Ftilt stops any short-hop aerials from Jigglypuff, and her aerials aren't too hard to shield anyways, so no problems there. It's a good strategy to pretty much stay in one place and let the Jigglypuff come to you, because you can just out range all of her approaches with Pits disjoint and rack up damage that way. Grab combos don't really work on Jigglypuff, so if you do grab, get a couple pummels, and a throw to put some damage in her.
On killing: Jigglypuff is easy to kill. She's super light and should die before 100% every time. All you really need is a good side-b or side-smash read. Though, if you are having trouble, what I try to pull of is an up throw then try to force the Jigglypuff to airdodge or somehow read her landing and get an upsmash in.

On the tools Jigglypuff has: Jigglypuff can give Pit some trouble landing with up-air, but thats not too difficult to avoid. Also, she can edgeguard Pit decently, though in my experience Pit can usually find a way back to stage without dying or taking too much damage. Overall, the only thing you really need to watch out for is rest. Just don't land on top of Jigglypuff with an aerial, and don't use your smashes/side-b (though down smash can be hard for a Jigglypuff to punish with a rest) unless you're sure they're going to hit.
 

Sensane

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Some notes on the Lucas MU:
:4lucas:
  • Orbitars can hurt Lucas's air game similar to Peach, though not as effective.
  • Orbitars reflect PK fire pretty reliably. Otherwise just shield.
  • Dank Pit is better for this MU because gimping Lucas with arrows isn't as effective against Lucas. Plus it's common sense not to ise arrows in neutral against Lucas so much anyways.
  • Do not take Lucas to Dreamland as for some reason he can gain stage control very easily on that stage (likely due to the platform layouts).
  • Lucas's n-air can be SDI'd out of, so be wary of that.
  • Taking Lucas to FD can weaken Lucas's camping ability since his ground game isn't as good as his air game.
  • Town and City is doable since characters can die to electroshock very early on that stage.
  • Lucas can be tricky to combo at times due to his floatiness.
  • Lucas players will often tether to the stage for recovery thanks to Lucas's far reaching z-air.
  • Z-air is a very good zoning and baiting tool.
  • Like with Ness, Lucas's up b can be orbitar gimped and screw it over significantly.
  • Try not to get grabbed thanks to Lucas's stupidly fast grab.
  • For some reason his name is Ridley on the kurogane hammer website. Someone tell me why.
  • Lucas's b-air can give us a hard time recovering horizontally, so recover diagonally or below the stage, but obviously mix it up.
I'd say that this is a pretty even matchup at this point.
 

Wintropy

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Just to say, because I forgot to mention it, I think both Pits have their strengths in the Luigi matchup. Pit is definitely a solid choice because arrows can really mess with The Green Man's recovery options if he has to recovery from a distance, but otherwise you shouldn't be afraid to challenge him off-stage the old-fashioned way. Aside from 'nado endlag or a dodgy landing, I don't think you'll find much safe opportunities to get the Electroshock kill, but it has the added benefit of potentially putting Luigi in a disadvantaged position off-stage. Go with whatever you're comfortable with in this matchup!

Pre-patch matchups, but these videos are worth watching - Boss doesn't rely on grab cheese in either, so there's good display of fundamental from both sides. It's not easy to find high-level examples of this matchup, but these should suffice.

Nairo vs Boss

Pink Fresh vs Boss
 
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CHOMPY

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:4lucas:

Lucas is an interesting one. Lucas is all about playing a good spacing game, he can wall you with wave bounce PK Fire, zair to shut down Pit's ground game approach at times, nair > ftilt, and retreating fair. In the neutral, Lucas can cross up shields with his Nair and then wall you with ftilt to prevent Pit from dash attacking. The best way to get around Lucas's Z-air is by dash shielding and then punish it with a dash attack. Usually when Lucas lands, they throw out their fastest tilts to ensure safety. The best way to force Lucas to approach is throwing out fairs, nairs, full hop arrows. What will happen is Lucas will start to approach and thats where Pit can shine and take over the stage control.

In terms of offstage game, you can still gimp Lucas the same way you can gimp Ness with the guardian orbitars, as long as Lucas is about two characters length away from the ledge. However, Lucas can tether grab, so be wary of that and go for the dair spike if your going to predict he will tether grab the ledge. Also, Lucas can't really bair spike Pit, thanks to Pit's up B recovery that denies the spike.

Don't shield too much because that's exactly what Lucas wants you to do and he can combo Pit to oblivion. Once your in Lucas's face, there isn't much Lucas can do to fight back. When your in kill range, watch out for his dthrow to uair, as it can kill early at around 110%. If you get grabbed, just DI away from Lucas, making his job a little harder. Generally, Lucas is a character that needs a lot of space to move around, so if you take him to smaller stages like battlefield or dreamland, he can't space as wall and the platforms can really hinder him at times.

Fun fact:

-After the first energy blast from Lucas's dsmash, you can drop your shield and punish Lucas without taking a hit. Meaning there is no hitbox after the first hit from the dsmash.

70:30 (Pit's Favor)


:4jigglypuff:

Puff is one of those strange matchups where you have to play patiently, but not panic. If you panic, such as consistent sidedoge/rolling, your going to get bopped by her rest move and it ain't pretty dying at 40%. Similar to how you fight against Little Mac, you can far ahead in percent lead, but Puff's rest and bair can turn the tides around real quick. Good Puff players will stay grounded because they realize that their range is no match for Pit's blades. The hardest part about the matchup is you can't combo Puff, due to how floaty she can be, so your going to have to play the matchup slowly. Fortunately, she is a light character, so Pit's usmash can kill as early as 90%. If you get too hasty with your dash grabs, upperdash arm (for the kill), or dash attacks, your asking to get punished. Take your time and the opportunity will be there. Arrows won't be of much use, due to her aerials outprioritizing our arrows. Puff has one of the best aerial mobility in the game, so I would not recommend challenging her air speed by any means, let her come to you and you should be fine. Puff has a really bad ground game as well, so if you empty short hop back and throw out a jab, that can shut down her ground game approach, forcing her to come at you in the air, which is what Pit is looking for in the matchup.

40:60 (Puffs Favor) if Puff is playing a grounded game.
70:30 (Pits favor) if she is playing an air game
 

G. Stache

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While my experience with Pit is quite limited, I'll try to give it a go (just be sure to correct me if I'm wrong on some points about the Pits).

I've never actually been scared by this MU at all. I find it quite even. You see, with a projectile able to clank with arrows and with a very workable foxtrot, Luigi can be quite slippery on ground to the point where it's frustrating. Luigi NEVER wants to rushdown on an opponent like Pit. Rather, he wants to bait an apporach with very patient play. Both want to play a similar game, in a sense. Except Pit trades reward for a better/safer neutral while Luigi trades safety for more reward. Both edge guard each other very well. Disjoints always give Luigi disdain when he's trying to recover. On the other hand, while I don't think Pit's up b is necessarily crap, it's cyclone gimping bait. Pit's side b is confusing with its super armor frames, so I personally don't try to challenge it (probably a mistake on my part, however). Other than that, mobility gives Pit the edge in footsies, along with more range and disjoint. Luigi should be especially cautious in his approach, but the reward is worth it. If Luigi catches Pit making a mistake, he's getting in. His combos hurt, and he doesn't get off of you easily. (Just a question, does pit have any reliable GTFO me moves that reliably shake Luigi off? Again, my experience is rather limited about Pit, so answers to this question would be nice). Other than that, Pit's disadvantage state seems rather lackluster, though I may be underrating the whole multiple jumps thing. Luigi's disadvantage...isn't bad in the sense that you can't be reaching too much during your combos in fear of Luigi's fast aerials. At the same time, Luigi can be prone to getting juggled, since his airspeed is terrible and his range pales in comparison to any disjoint. So, that's a rather sloppy explanation of why I think the way I do. Sorry it wasn't well written, drama practice is a thing and our show is on Friday. The crunch time is real :p. if you have any specific questions, don't be afraid to ask. I'll get to them later

After writing all of this: I, personally, think Pit has a slight advantage while Dark Pit has a slight disadvantage. Pit's arrows are especially useful for edge guarding while Dark Pit's side B relies on a mistake from Luigi (a Luigi should never try cyclone or any laggier attack unless he's VERY confident he's going to land it) and D Pit's arrows are much less of a hassle in general. So D Pit's essentially getting tools taken away for a potential punishing tool (should he whiff, should get Luigi's up b punish in return)
 
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Wintropy

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While my experience with Pit is quite limited, I'll try to give it a go (just be sure to correct me if I'm wrong on some points about the Pits).
Really good post overall, I think you hit the nail on the head with your observations, but I want to ask something on the subject of Dark Pit:

Shouldn't he be able to catch Luigi's landings with Electroshock? It's not really a game-changer, but it's something I want to get your opinion on.
 

SkippyJ

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As a former puff main (moved on to villager) i can say with confidence that you guys win the MU by a fair margin. 60:40 dark pits favor, maybe even more so. Think about puffs strengths.. She has high aerial mobility, allowing her to weave in and out nicely, shes hard to combo and.. thats about it. Playing against an aerial puff your aerials outspace her to the point that you can challange nearly everything she does. Just watch her mobility patterns, how she weaves in and out, as soon as you see your opponent about to commit do an in place or retreating forward air. There is no need for you to play aggressive, because she has to come to you. Another thing puffs love to do is gimp peoples recoveries, but because you have multiple jumps you can make this very difficult. Dont be afraid to jump around waiting for an oppening to return to stage, puffs do eventually run out of jumps, and when they do they have no Up B to save them. This leads into my next point: count your opponent's jumps. They count them, and so should you. Puff might be able to jump around a lot but her movement options are fairly linear, so you should be able to spot a puffs landing and punish, if you are paying attention.

Honestly the only hope a puff has against you is to get the rest, which is why its important not to play too aggressive. You dont want to be playing right on top of a good puff. Keep the pressure on, but dont over extend yourself. Space your moves smartly and the win is practically in the bag
 

G. Stache

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Really good post overall, I think you hit the nail on the head with your observations, but I want to ask something on the subject of Dark Pit:

Shouldn't he be able to catch Luigi's landings with Electroshock? It's not really a game-changer, but it's something I want to get your opinion on.
Well, if the Luigi sees it coming, then I'd imagine that he could Cyclone away and avoid it. Other than that, Electroshock could potentially be a potent surprise for the Luigi. But, while this is more of a player thing, unless you can consistently force the Luigi into an unfavorable position, the player is going to adapt. in a sense, it reminds me of Luigi's own jab into up b set up. A very potent set up for that one kill, but unless you can force your opponent to fall into another up b, good luck hitting it again on a skilled player.

Luigi doesn't seem to have much to directly combat it, however. Best three options besides a retreating cyclone I can really think of are using your double jump to bait out the side b, challenging from above with a Dair (assuming that side b doesn't score a hit on us even then, of course), and fast fall into shield.
 

Wintropy

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Well, if the Luigi sees it coming, then I'd imagine that he could Cyclone away and avoid it. Other than that, Electroshock could potentially be a potent surprise for the Luigi. But, while this is more of a player thing, unless you can consistently force the Luigi into an unfavorable position, the player is going to adapt. in a sense, it reminds me of Luigi's own jab into up b set up. A very potent set up for that one kill, but unless you can force your opponent to fall into another up b, good luck hitting it again on a skilled player.

Luigi doesn't seem to have much to directly combat it, however. Best three options besides a retreating cyclone I can really think of are using your double jump to bait out the side b, challenging from above with a Dair (assuming that side b doesn't score a hit on us even then, of course), and fast fall into shield.
That makes sense. I will bear that in mind in future! ;3
 

CHOVI

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Jigglypuff has trouble approaching both pits. Arrows don't do too much to us, but Pit's aerials outrange us; a big problem for a character that is mostly airborne. On the ground, things aren't much better. Jigglypuff has to play really safe due to Pit's powerful moves that can take an early stock.
To play this MU, Puff has to play very safely, consistently baiting and punishing, never overextending, and spacing both fair and bair correctly because Pits are fast and can punish unsafe approaches well.
With the new buff, Dark Pit's side-b kills us at a ridiculously low percent. So does uncharged fsmash.
Now let's talk about Jiggly's advantages. Most of Pit's combos don't work on us, at least at higher percents. As I said, arrows are easy to just dodge and you can't hit us with strings of aerials as easily. We're pretty much ungimpable. Your dair is too slow to hit us and we can easily evade your footstools. If anything, Jigglypuff can gimp Pit in certain situations.
Also, a whiffed side B can sometimes be punished with a rest so watch out.
Overall, I'd say the MU is in Pit's favor due to Jigglypuff having trouble approaching and Pit's range/speed/punishes.
It's not unwinnable but certainly unpleasant.
I'd say it's 70-30 :4pit:
and like 73-27 :4darkpit: due to side b
 
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Would it be possible to update the Match up summaries/discussion portions. Its really hard to search through all the pages to find the Match up I'm looking for. If that's not possible I would suggest posting a link of where those discussions start in the thread in place of those.
 

Wintropy

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Would it be possible to update the Match up summaries/discussion portions. Its really hard to search through all the pages to find the Match up I'm looking for. If that's not possible I would suggest posting a link of where those discussions start in the thread in place of those.
I'll get on it as soon as possible. :3
 

Koiba

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I faced a Peach player today and I realized how much the orbitars can hurt her. Peach is pretty reliant on her air game and the orbitars are very pushy against characters with air games, with Peach probably being the weakest against them (either her or Jiggs). I can't help but say that we have the advantage. Not only that, but we can kill her with relative ease. Due to her trouble landing, u-smash is also really dangerous against her. The best tool she has against us is her comboing (which again is still weak against orbitars outside of grabs and if she has a turnip) and her platform utility. Her recovery is also easy for us to edgeguard with arrows, orbitars, or aerials. This may sound like a bunch of simplifications but I can't help but say we have the advantage in this MU. Obviously her combo game is still something to be feared and turnips can be a nuisance at times, but aside from that there's not much she can do against us.

:4pit::4darkpit:(65:35):4peach:
I played the peach MU the other day and find it annoying actually. Her float really disrupts my strings and juggles. And that fair hurts so much.

I haven't used orbies on her tho.

:150:
So I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here on these 3 matchups.

Peach is a definite +1 matchup for Pit, in my opinion. Peach has a hard time landing against Pit, because Pits uair beats out Peach's dair. The combo game is also in Pits favor, because Peach's floatiness makes her pretty easy to combo, and Pit can jump out of most of Peach's combos easily. The main thing is to watch out for Peach's fair and any potential jank from her turnip pulls.
Before we close out the matchups, does anyone have an objection on these matchup ratios below?
:4peach: +1





Now let's move on to the matchup discussion at hand. I have a little experience with the R.O.B. matchup. I've struggled with it for a while but after getting the hang of it I'd say it's +1 for us. This is why: :4rob:is a bit faster than us frame data-wise but can't do much damage to us up close so he will favor camping with projectiles. :4rob: has a great projectile game with top and laser the latter of which can be angled in pretty much any direction. He will use his projectiles to rack up damage and then come in with his smashes to finish the job or just keep camping and kill with a fully charged laser. ROBs generally start with the top so they can keep you away while they charge their laser. You want to be aware of this and keep your distance at first and try to bait out the top. When the top comes out you have 2 options: pick up the top or continue the projectile game. If you go for the top, you can throw it back at him and use it as and use it as an oppertunity to apply preassure up close. This is :4rob:'s fatal flaw is that he is big and pretty heavy(10th heaviest in the game) so he's combo food. If we can get him in the air we have a greater advantage because :4rob:'s aerials are really slow except for his fair but our nair comes out faster so it's perfectly fine. Back to the top, if you go for it enough, the :4rob: player will catch on and immediately fire a laser angled at the ground. Unfortunately we can't reflect it because it's angled so it won't hit :4rob: but what we can do is keep our distance so if :4rob: angles the laser at the ground it will miss us since it will bounce upward. However, you have to be careful in case he fires the laser straight in which case you have to reflect. Try pretending to go for the top giving :4rob:an incentive to angle the laser and then spot dodging or power shielding once it comes out. You don't want to roll away because if :4rob:is close enough it will give him time to regrab the top. An extended dash dance might work but Pit's isn't that great so I wouldn't recommend it. You could also stay back and camp with arrows giving rob an incentive not to angle his laser and then reflect it. All of that said once you've avoided the laser simply grab the top and get in close just like before. Always keep in mind though that :4rob: has a frame 3 jab and down tilt and might use it when you get in close but if you can predict when he'll use it you're fine.

Edge guarding is pretty straight forward. :4rob:'s up B has no hit box so you're gonna want to go for an off stage aerial

Another thing you can do is camp with arrows to bait out a side b from :4rob:. It reflects but has terrible end lag so it's easy to punish. I hope all this helps
It's pretty inconsistent when flying diagonally. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Otherwise you'd have to sweetspot the ledge, which can be pretty difficult to do since there is a very precise window. And remember, the gyro can really hurt our recovery depending on where we are on the stage. Though if we roll onto the stage, the gyro won't pressure us as much.
The orbitars are surprisingly effective against ROB's u-air.
I have a couple things to say about the ROB mu:

Placing a gyro at the ledge of the stage might not be as threatening as it looks. I've rolled onto the ledge with no issue. Of course rolling onto the ledge may get us punished with a f-smash from ROB, but then again how deadly are any of his punishes are in this scenario? The most he could do is launch us a good distance away, but it won't really do much. Maybe jumping from the ledge and then [maybe] using orbitars would work. Speaking of orbitars, you can use them to land against ROB's u-air since his u-air will just flail when hitting our orbitars and we'll land safely afterwards. Also something else I noticed about orbitars in general is that you can move around in the air with them. They're very good against ROB since none of his aerials autocancel reliably, so landing without a gyro will be difficult for him. Just a couple notes I've taken in the MU. I remember playing against a ROB player at an Anther's Ladder tourney a few weeks ago and my pits did well against him. I switched to Pit assuming the MU would go better since he rekt my Sonic in the first match and sent me to losers. But then he got kicked down to losers and in the losers finals I switched to Pit and Dark Pit simultaneously and won the set. They were some really good games in the tourney.
Well, ROB can easily upsmash you if you roll, and that kills... a lot.
Actually unless if his timing is perfect we should have just enough time to shield his u-smash. If not then he may be too early and the u-smash will whiff and miss.
Then you're probably to impatient with rolling from the ledge. Also, have you tried jumping from the ledge? I clearly stated that that's another viable option against a gyro.
You get hit when jumping. I find the best to drop jump and press grab to get the gyro and inmediately throw it. If you airdodge you land with lag.
Before we close out the matchups, does anyone have an objection on these matchup ratios below?
:4rob: -1
I don't quite agree with ROB being a -1. Orbitars can help against the u-airs, but then again they can easily bait you into sending them out and punishing, but I say that it's an even MU since we can combo him hard.
Hi guys, looks like I've been summoned. I used to beat Chompy in this match up often until recently when I was 2-0'd I used to think that ROB wins the match up solidly but I think it's even. I think Pit can combo and frame trap ROB at any %. I still think ROB outcamps him but if you're good at power shielding (which you should be) it gets really difficult for ROB to keep Pit away and stop him from grabbing him.
So I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here on these 3 matchups.

I believe that the ROB matchup is a +1 in Pits favor. ROB is combo phodder, and is pretty easy to edgeguard. And something to keep in mind is that his gyro on the ledge is just as effective on every other character as it is on Pit, so if it was an unbeatable strategy, he'd be considered top tier or at least much better. My advice in the matchup is to keep the pressure on ROB as much as possible and try to keep ROB in the air (I wouldn't take this too seriously, because I have very, very little experience in this matchup).

Out of these 3, Game and Watch is probably the worst matchup for Pit. That being said, I still think it's a +/-0. G&Ws edgeguarding skills are effective against Pit and he is almost impossible to edgeguard. Also, Pit is comboed pretty heavily by G&W, and he has a lot of trouble landing. That being said, Pit does have a couple positive tools in this matchup. Pit is much faster than G&W, which make a rush-down playstyle effective. And if you don't feel confident about that, Pit's footsies in neutral are better than G&W, because his tilts are faster and have more range. Also, G&W is light. Like, really light. Pit has no trouble killing in this matchup (I've even killed a G&W at 80% before). And early kills like that can really shift the tide of a match on your favor.

My recommendation in the matchup against all these characters is to just play aggressive, keep the opponent in the air, and then try to read an air dodge to get a kill.
Nada






I played a GnW today. That dash attack and Up smash is annoying! Makes it kinda hard to land.

:150:
We've been discussing Peach and Rob a lot but does anyone know anything about the game and watch matchup? To be honest. I haven't played a decent G&W since I stoped playing for glory regularly but I'd give us a solid +1 on the matchup. I never had much trouble with him. You just have to be careful not to camp so much with arrows.
Yeah not sure why people wanted G&W at first; really only GimR plays him consistently and Anther's Ladder is certainly not helping me with the MU since no one there plays him.

In theory we could use uncharged arrows as bait and come in with a punish due to the end lag of the bucket, plus the oil spill really isn't going to kill us anyway.
I find the gaw mu -1 or even. His dash attack, upsmash, dtilt and bucket are really good moves; and the fact that he combos us hard but we can't combo him because his floaty makes it really hard.
We actually don't have trouble with comboing him at all, and have you ever tried baiting his bucket? It has a ton of end lag which gives us an opportunity to punish. His dash attack can get annoying but is really not a bother and it's the same with d-tilt, only that move is unsafe on shield. We can also kill him very easily due to his weight, especially with a smash attack. Also, his bucket isn't that fatal against us at all since our arrows make the oil spill a fairly weak attack.
Game & Watch is an interesting character to fight against. Try to sweet spot the ledge. Otherwise, you could get stage spiked by Game & Watch's dash attack (similar to how Marios dash attack functions). When it comes to G&W's uair, respect it and land safely as far away from G&W as possible. Airdodging won't really help you out, since the uair comes out quick and they can still stall you in the air. Once G&W stalls you in the air, respect it until your getting closer to the ground. Watch out for his key (dair), as it can potentially spike you (if sweetspotted) on the stage. Of course, G&W has his dthrow combos, so be wary of that as well. What the matchup comes right down to is a spacing game. If you can out space G&W and bait out his attacks, you should be able to win the match. Don't bother pressuring G&W offstage with arrows, thanks to the bucket. Most of the time, your going to want to stay grouded because G&W has a terrible ground game, but in the air, G&W is far superior due to having a ton of range and excellent air speed. Carefully look at their movement patterns and you should be able to catch their landings with your usmash, or uair/fairs. When recovering, mix it up by grabbing the ledge diagonally, so Game&Watch can't drop down and stage spike you with the turtle (bair). Also, I reccomend going under the line of the ledge with the side B to avoid the nasty range G&W's fsmash has.

As Viridi would say, "Watch out for the #9, Pit". ;)

After playing with some of the G&W players in my region, I want to say the MU is 55:45 Pit's favor.

:4gaw: 55:45
Before we close out the matchups, does anyone have an objection on these matchup ratios below?

:4gaw: +1
So I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here on these 3 matchups.

Out of these 3, Game and Watch is probably the worst matchup for Pit. That being said, I still think it's a +/-0. G&Ws edgeguarding skills are effective against Pit and he is almost impossible to edgeguard. Also, Pit is comboed pretty heavily by G&W, and he has a lot of trouble landing. That being said, Pit does have a couple positive tools in this matchup. Pit is much faster than G&W, which make a rush-down playstyle effective. And if you don't feel confident about that, Pit's footsies in neutral are better than G&W, because his tilts are faster and have more range. Also, G&W is light. Like, really light. Pit has no trouble killing in this matchup (I've even killed a G&W at 80% before). And early kills like that can really shift the tide of a match on your favor.

My recommendation in the matchup against all these characters is to just play aggressive, keep the opponent in the air, and then try to read an air dodge to get a kill.
Well said I agree with all of this. One question I would like to ask not to you specifically but to everyone. Should we consider giving Dark Pit the +1 in the Game and Watch matchup because of the extra kill power? With the buff Electro shock can kill G&W as early as 50%(assuming rage, freshness and no/poor di) with consistent kills most likely at 75% and above. Pit's arrows won't be too helpful vs G&W because of the bucket so for once I think Dark Pit has the advantage.
No.

1. Because for the hundredth time the bucket has enough end lag for us to bait it and punish and even so, THE ARROWS IN THE BUCKET AREN'T STRONG ENOUGH FOR US TO DIE FROM THE OIL SPILL!!!!!! I am so tired of having to say this with no one understanding the world's simplest concept of bait and punish, and Pit is good at that against G&W. One thing to do is maneuver the arrows around G&W at close range which will force him to deploy the bucket; it takes nearly a second and a half for him to put the bucket away, and it takes longer on the ground.

2. Upperdash is still a viable kill option, not as early as Dark Pit, but still in general.
Nada

Good choices. Can't say much for Villager, but I know a few Rosalinas and dabble in Palutena, so here's what I think:

:4palutena:

- Palutena's neutral is straightforward but reasonably effective. She will try to space and poke with f-air, b-air and dash attack, occasionally throwing in jab as a mixup. She has good run speed and burst options out of dash (b-air and dash grab especially). She wants to get the grab, as that is the crux of her gameplan: she will turtle if she needs to and respond to pressure with invincible b-air and dash attack, then jab or grab at openings to catch us.

- Jab confirms into grab if it connects. Jab is f8, not the fastest, but it's disjointed and is an effective mixup if she has conditioned you to approach carefully in neutral. Multi-jab is good for catching rolls and spotdodges, but does not confirm into grab.

- Grab, dash grab and pivot grab are all effective options in neutral. She will often punish with grab in neutral if she can. She doesn't have the fastest grabs, but they have good range and set up for a variety of followups.

- She can use just about any aerial out of d-throw, depending on percentage, rage and DI. B-air and u-air can both kill, so try to avoid those with DI if possible. If you have to get hit by something (and you quite often will), try to DI away from her so she can only use f-air or n-air: it will do some damage, but it won't kill you. If she reads that you will DI away or airdodge immediately after d-throw, she can followup with (running) u-smash - this is very rare, but possible if you don't mix up your reaction to d-throw.

- Try to avoid getting grabbed wherever possible, but understand that it's a fundamental part of her gameplan and a good Palutena will know how to read and condition you to get the grab whenever it's a viable option.

- Her edgeguarding is decent too, with n-air and b-air both potentially setting up for wall spikes, u-air trading with most options and d-air having a spike hitbox (albeit for one frame). She can't go too deep to edgeguard, but her disjointed moves and intangible recovery mean she isn't at too much of a risk if she tries to intercept Pit's easily-traced recovery.

- If you're off-stage and especially if you're trying to recover, watch out for her ledge-cancel: it can set up for a d-air spike or other shenanigans and is an effective mixup option on stages with platforms.

- Her options in neutral are quite fast and can be pressuring, so don't try to force anything you're not comfortable with. Most of her grounded moves have good startup but noticeable endlag, so don't be afraid to punish with dash attack or other quick, non-committal moves to make things difficult for her. Try to use safer moves so you don't get baited and punished (dash attack, d-tilt, autocanceled aerials, etc) and mix it up so she can't respond effectively every time. Side-b is a good mixup option if she is being too aggressive or unsafe, but otherwise I would save it as a Hail Mary or for catching landings and punishing smashes.

- Beyond her neutral game, she doesn't have much to threaten us. Her advantage is so-so at best, with only a handful of moves really being effective to pressure or kill (b-air and u-air especially, the latter can make it difficult to land with Pit's poor airspeed), and she otherwise struggles to get the kill: with no reliable confirms except a possible d-throw followup in b-air or u-air and laggy, punishable smashes, she will have to work hard to seal the stock. The options she does have (smashes, dash attack, b-air and u-air in neutral / advantage) are very powerful and shouldn't be disregarded entirely, but you should never feel helpless against them either: not having good confirms means she only so many options to really threaten your stock, everything else is avoidable with patience and effective play.

- She doesn't have much options to reset to neutral, except for her invincible f8 b-air and possibly Warp, so don't be afraid to press home the advantage if you can. She should not try to land safely, because that can be punished with Pit's u-smash, and will instead either try to push you back with her aerials or Warp to safety. If she can Warp onto a platform, she can ledge-cancel to quickly reset.

- Edeguarding is a bit trickier, since she can just Warp back to the edge if she gets an opportunity, but pushing her out can make it difficult or impossible for her to recover. Again, b-air and u-air, but Orbitars may be useful in this matchup if she tries to pressure you right back and has the potential to push her out where she can't recover.

- Play a steady game and don't get too hungry for the kill: while Palutena doesn't have the best kill options or setups, she is good at punishing mistakes and can play a good defensive game if you let her. Try to keep the pressure on her without getting too aggressive and remember that our punish options are just as good as hers. Winning neutral should not be too difficult if we make use of our own disjoints and footsies options, and you can effectively pressure her in advantage and reset to neutral if you understand what she can do and don't get baited into falling into her trap.

I think this is a +1 or possibly a +2 matchup for Pit. Palutena does have options and she can be tricky to fight in neutral, but patient play and understanding how and when to press the advantage can make it very manageable, and Pit has more than enough tools to deal with her divine shenanigans.
Seeing as though the character discussions has died out. I'm going to say we should move onto talking about different characters

:4pit:vs.

:4palutena:+1

:4darkpit:vs.

:4palutena:+1
Nada. Are customs even relevant anymore?


:rosalina:

- First off: Dark Pit is objectively superior in this matchup. If you have to fight Rosie, you should seriously consider using Dark Pit, even if you'd otherwise play Pit. Electroshock makes this matchup significantly more bearable and arrows will seldom be useful in the first place, so he has a noticeable advantage over Pit in this matchup. That said, I'm going to presume (unless otherwise stated) you're playing Dark Pit. I will make a brief point about their respective options at the end, just in case you do decide to go Pit.

- Dark Pit's Electroshock is great in this matchup. It's one of the best guaranteed Luma killers you could hope for and makes things much more even. Your first priority, therefore, should be to kill Luma: irrespective of Rosie's percentage, Electroshock can knock Luma off-stage and send it into a fatal tumble animation from just past the mid-point of most stages. Try to aim for the side that Rosie is closest to and get rid of it as quickly and efficiently as possible. If you're facing the right direction and are in any way close to the edge, Electroshock should knock Luma off-stage in one hit. That gives you about 12 seconds of one-on-one time with Rosie to press home the advantage. Use it wisely, and don't be afraid to go for Electroshock again whenever you need to: just be careful that you don't get too aggressive with it and try to use it as a crossup or mixup.

- You will probably get punished for using Electroshock, at least at low percents. This is something that you will have to deal with, and it's really not a heavy price to pay for negating Rosie's main weapon: if Rosie is shielding, she can grab or punish with an OOS aerial or u-smash, neither of which will really have a noticeable impact at low percents, or she can punish with a dash attack or possibly a smash of her choice if Luma is disconnected from her and she can rush in on time to get the punish. Remember that shielding will not defend Luma, so don't be afraid to eat an OOS punish if that's what it takes. When you get to higher percents, and if Rosie decides to be more careful with how she uses Luma, you will want to weigh up your options and decide if it's best to risk potential punishment to weaken Rosie. You don't have to kill Luma, it's often better to just play the neutral and go for Electroshock without making it a priority, but keep an eye out for opportunities and decide when it's safest to use it. It really does make a difference in this matchup, and the two are much more evenly matched when they're on their own.

- Rosie is no pushover without Luma, remember that! She's still got a ton of disjointed options, reasonably strong smashes and a decent neutral game to keep you on your toes. It's not uncommon for neutral with SoRo to become a patient game of playing careful footsies and trading disjoints, but remember that she is still weakened in this state and you should not be afraid to pressure her with whatever you've got. Space her out with autocanceled aerials and pivots, going for the grab if possible, and don't let yourself get punished. Rosie's still fast and strong even by herself and she is more than capable of punishing you if she gets the chance, so find a good balance between offensive play and patient poking to get her defenses down.

- She may decide to play more defensively and stall the clock if she's by herself, so don't be afraid to pressure her and make her respect your neutral game if she doesn't want to commit to the fight. While she can punish you consistently if she gets the chance, remember that this is your time, so make the best of it!

- Grab is an effective option as always, but Rosie's gravity makes it trickier to get most of our best followups our of throws: d-throw -> u-smash stops working very quickly due to her floatiness, so it may be best to go for d-throw -> u-air instead if you can, and it can be difficult to keep her in combo strings that would work on faster-falling characters. Go for the grab if you can, just remember to mixup your followups to compensate for her stature.

- If possible, don't position yourself directly above her: u-air will make it difficult to land if you're trying to get down from overhead, and especially if she has the advantage, she can keep pressuring you with u-air and potentially take your stock with it. If she gets you overhead and you have to reset, don't airdodge - she will read it and punish you for it, and that can be fatal if you're at high percents or on a stage with a low ceiling. Pittoo's airspeed isn't great either, making it difficult to jump out of the way, so your best bet is to either read her u-air and airdodge at the right time or use Orbitars to descend safely.

- By the same token, it can be difficult to pressure Rosie from beneath (with u-smash or u-air, for example), since d-air is a relatively safe disjoint and can interrupt our punishes. Don't get too hungry for the punish right away, instead try to bait her into committing to something and then punish that instead.

- She has an easier time edgeguarding Pittoo than he has edgeguarding her, since her recovery is about as effective as his and she has bigger disjoints in u-air and d-air. If she gets you off-stage, don't bother trying to fight back: just get back to the stage as efficiently as you can and priorities avoiding unnecessary damage. If you get her off-stage, and because her best aerial disjoints only hit overhead and beneath her, you can trade with her nair and f-air with our own f-air. Don't bother trying to d-air spike her off-stage, her u-air makes it too risky an option. Both her recovery and Pittoo's can be easily traced and intercepted: try to recover in a way that helps you return safely when you're off-stage, and when she's off-stage, cover the ledge to keep her from recovering safely (n-air is a good option, since it has a wide, lingering hitbox that can catch her when she travels). The main crux of this fight will be on-stage, so don't feel too pressured to challenge her off-stage if you're not comfortable with it - just remember that she can stall off-stage to wait for Luma to regenerate, so be ready to challenge her if you have to.

- When Luma is in play, you're going to need to be more defensive and patient until you can find a good time to knock it out. Don't rush in or try to force anything, you'll just get blindsided by Rosie's sentient stonewall: instead, bide your time and pressure from a safe distance, poking with aerials and throwing out arrows to soften it up. Rosie can't commit to much either, since the threat of Electroshock is ever-present, so the neutral can become something of a stalemate where both try to force the other into making the first move. If you're feeling pressured or have a good lead in percentage, it may be pragmatic to just go for the Electroshock kill and force Rosie into disadvantage. Both Rosie and Pittoo have to respect the other in neutral, since they both have a secret weapon that can really threaten the other and potentially neutralise their best options: being able to break through that wall of respect and go for the kill may well be the best thing to do in certain situations, and if you're confident that you can take whatever punishment you may receive for it, Electroshock will be your best friend and the defining trait of your gameplan in this matchup.

- Pit isn't nearly as good a choice in this matchup, since the only notable advantages her has are his arrows and the sweetspot on f-tilt: while f-tilt can be a decent and relatively safe kill option in its own right, it may well have to go through Luma to be effective and it doesn't make up for the option to negate a good deal of Rosie's options whenever the opportunity presents itself. Arrows can be useful for sniping Rosie and racking up damage, due to her tall hitbox and the fact that they can dodge Luma if they're directed well, but Gravitational Pull will absorb most of them if Rosie gets the chance, and again, it's not a worthwhile trade. Upperdash isn't a bad option by any means, and it's still a strong kill option in neutral, but the fact that it sends Luma straight upwards means it won't kill it as effectively as Electroshock and it's about as good as Electroshock is for killing Rosie. There's no reason why you should pick Pit over Pittoo in this matchup if you want to be more effective, Pittoo is easily the better choice.

This is one of the few matchups where there's a significant difference between the two Pits and where you will want to use one over the other in just about every way. For that reason, I think this matchup is 0 for Pit and +1 for Dark Pit.
When a Pitoo user plays well, Luma is never around, meaning rosa has to deal with a disjoint without her meatshield.
Pit lacks the ability to level the playing field in this way.
Dark Pit is absolutely more effective in this matchup. I'd hesitate to say he "beats" rosa, but it's probably even.
Seeing as though the character discussions has died out. I'm going to say we should move onto talking about different characters

:4pit:vs.


:rosalina:+0


:4darkpit:vs.

:rosalina:+1
Just want to say, if you're using the ratios I posted on these matchups to determine the final score, I've changed my opinion on it. I talked to @DialNouns about it and we both think it's -1 for Pit and 0 for Dark Pit.

Don't know if others agree or disagree on that, but that's my opinion.
Click on the little Luma for more details!


So no one has said much about the Villager matchup yet, so I'll take a stab at the subject.
The matchup against Villager is disadvantageous for Pit. In my opinion, I'd call it a -1. Villager can out-camp Pit pretty easily using his rocket, and fair/bair. Let's face it, reflecting the rocket is often not the best decision, because the Villager can punish Pit for that, making one of Pits best anti-camping moves not as useful. Also, Villager edgeguards the crap out of Pit. His fair/bair/nair/even dair all hit Pit out of his recovery, making it very unsafe for Pit to go offstage.
Really, the only redeeming qualities about this matchup is that you can reflect bowling ball/tree for pretty early kills, you could potentially snipe villagers baloons with arrows, and with Villagers up+b not having a hitbox, Pit can harass his recovery and try to go for a stage spike.

Overall, I find this matchup difficult and annoying (though not unwinnable).
In my opinion, the Pit/Villager match-up is even. Villager shuts down aerial approaches very well with his zoning tools. However, Pit does not need to approach with aerials because his ground game is amazing. Shield is very strong for Pit since Villager needs to commit quite a bit in order to grab. This in turn allows Pit to shield Villager's projectiles and shield grab while remaining relatively safe. On top of that, most of Pit's aerials beat out Villager's f-air and b-air which mitigates Villager's zoning options against Pit if you do try to approach in the air. Therefore, I believe Pit wins the neutral game in this match-up. And the key to beating Villager is to beat Villager in the neutral as it is very rare to net an early stock from edge-guarding or spiking Villager (especially with our pretty weak spike).

Of course Villager has advantages over Pit. Most notably, Villager's edge-guarding tools are extremely powerful against Pit due his linear recovery options. A charged f-smash from the ledge while Pit recovering under the ledge can kill Pit at extremely low percents as shown here: https://youtu.be/I0MN3CzxmuA?t=661

Thus, it is vital to mix-up Pit's recovery. In my opinion, using side-b to recover is safer than up-b due to its super armor and hitbox. Being able to tech consistently is very important as stage spikes can and will likely happen a lot. Villager also has a lot of ledge tricks he can do but knowing which moves cover which ledge option can help the Pit player avoid a couple of his setups. Recovering fast is also good so that Villager does not have the time to set up.

This is a match-up is seen a lot in the Japanese scene, most notably through Earth and Ranai. Despite the fact that Ranai is the best player in Japan and possesses strength equivalent to top players like ZeRo, Nairo, and Dabuz (after all, he almost beat ZeRo and Dabuz against abysmal match-ups), Earth is one of the only players in Japan that has a relatively even set count against Ranai. For example, Earth won Pre-KVO by double eliminating Ranai.
Winners set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIuoSwWQrho
Grand finals set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhQbLOER0Y

As a player, winning the neutral game is pivotal to Earth's game play; therefore, it is not surprising that he has taken many sets off of Ranai's Villager. Meanwhile, Paseriman, another Japanese Pit, has trouble against Ranai because he is not consistently winning the neutral and ends up getting edge-guarded as shown in this set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b8Wejc-qqI

All in all, I think it's even. Pit has the advantage in neutral and Villager has the advantage when edge-guarding. While Pit is not rewarded in the neutral as much as Villager is rewarded when edge-guarding, Villager has to beat Pit in neutral, a place where Pit has the advantage in, just to get Pit into an edge-guarding position. Therefore, the outcome of the battle will largely depend on who can get the reads and outplay the player.
Seeing as though the character discussions has died out. I'm going to say we should move onto talking about different characters

:4pit:vs.

:4villager:+1



:4darkpit:vs.

:4villager:+1







And to just make everyone's lives a little easier~ Wintropy Wintropy it's be great if you slapped this on the first post :3



ROUND 1

:4sheik::4pikachu::4zss:


http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...glypuff-and-lucas.414936/page-4#post-20223311


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


ROUND 2

:4littlemac::4mario::4charizard::4fox::4metaknight::4bowserjr::4diddy::rosalina::4falcon:


http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...glypuff-and-lucas.414936/page-7#post-20587440


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


ROUND 3

:4peach::4rob::4gaw::4palutena::rosalina:*part 2*:4villager:


http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...lypuff-and-lucas.414936/page-10#post-20836149



lmao the Peach discussion was super dry
 
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Wintropy

Peace and love and all that jazzmatazz~! <3
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Koiba Koiba , quotes don't show up when the main post is quoted, so I can't copy-paste the entirety of what you just sent. It just shows up with blank spaces where the quotes should be. Can you be a dear and send me the full version in raw code instead?

In other words, just frame it with [ CODE ] [ /CODE ], e.g.:

Code:
This message is in raw code. The spoilers and quotation codes can be copy-pasted straight to the OP.

[QUOTE]An example of what a quoted post looks like in code.[/QUOTE]
One more thing, can you be even more of a dear and send me the rest of the matchup notes you've compiled in one mega-post? Then I can put the whole thing in the OP in one go.
 

Sensane

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We're pretty much ungimpable.
*plays against a puff player on AL*
*picks sonic knowing the mu*
*knocks puff offstage*
*watches puff go for the ledge*
*hits puff with spring*
*knocks puff a good distance away*
*puff recovers high using rising pound*
*hits puff with f-air*
*puff uses last jump*
*puff falls to her untimely death*
*stands there doing nothing to let the moment sink in*
*puts on shades*
*tells the world that puff is gimpable*
 

CHOVI

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*plays against a puff player on AL*
*picks sonic knowing the mu*
*knocks puff offstage*
*watches puff go for the ledge*
*hits puff with spring*
*knocks puff a good distance away*
*puff recovers high using rising pound*
*hits puff with f-air*
*puff uses last jump*
*puff falls to her untimely death*
*stands there doing nothing to let the moment sink in*
*puts on shades*
*tells the world that puff is gimpable*
umm just because you played a Jigglypuff that didn't know how to recover well doesn't mean she's easy to gimp .______.
(I mean I get your point, of course she's not LITERALLY ungimpable, just really hard to gimp)
 
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TriTails

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Really good post overall, I think you hit the nail on the head with your observations, but I want to ask something on the subject of Dark Pit:

Shouldn't he be able to catch Luigi's landings with Electroshock? It's not really a game-changer, but it's something I want to get your opinion on.
Luigi should be going for a ledge reset everytime he is being juggled. His landing options are horrible enough he does not want to risk it. See: U-air and U-smash beating everything.

Personally, the Pits don't scare me... like, at all. They don't kill me with five hits or consistently put me in serious disadvantage onstage. The result of this matchup relies almost entirely on the players' fundamentals IMO. Luigi shouldn't be going in but neither should Pit because none of their projectiles are threathening or they have a (good) reflector (Well, Pit has Arm and Orbitars but you're commiting hard in that case). Pit's disjoints is hard for Luigi to get through if he doesn't know what he is doing. A trick I like to do is to bait those move out while not getting hit by the attack itself. Then I throw out a Fireball or go in depending on the move's recovery. IMO, this is Luigi's answer to disjoints aside from PS. He doesn't shield nor tank, he avoids it then strike.

When Luigi gets in, he doesn't do as much damage as he would want to as Pit has multiple jumps and nice enough D-air to cover his landings from U-smash (But getting grabbed still means great reward for Luigi, and aerials can be baited). But Pit IIRC doesn't either. Both can have trouble killing, but I would say Luigi has the edge due to his lagless smashes and SHFF B-air (Which trades and kills well). Pit's U-smash misses a lot of times from my experience and F-smash is very risky at kill percents.

I would give the advantage to Pit in this MU, however, because offstage. Onstage, both characters are mostly even against each other. But offstage, Luigi suffers. PoF is easy to predict, but Arm is completely different thing. You can't just go out your way and JC gimp or D-air spike as you would with PoF.

Luigi should never use his Missile offstage. He instead must recover low or high to mix things up with Cyclone, because Missile is laughably pathetic vs Pit. Actually, there isn't much of a time where Missile is actually good offstage in just about every matchups except for Mac, but that's a different story.

I would give 55:45 Pit. Maybe others can rectify things I missed, because I haven't played Pit seriously for a long time.
 
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