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Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

Organization XIII

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The DK series has already been long-represented in Smash and Geno, while beloved by a lot of people, is ultimately just a one-off character who made one appearance in a spinoff game. Neither of them are really as necessary for Smash as people like to think.

Banjo however is not only a part of Nintendo’s history with zero representation in Smash, but you could definitely argue that they are iconic. Just because they aren’t really relevant today doesn’t take away how important they were to Nintendo during their time. Ending their decade-long hiatus by finally bringing them to Smash would be huge and unexpected in and of itself. And the fact that they brought back Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas in Smash 4 as dlc shows that they do care about fan requests. That’s something they didn’t have to do, but they did.
It's funny how you minimized two other popular requests and then proceeded to talk about the exact reasons you can do the exact same about Banjo and yet somehow act like he's in a better place.
 
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It's funny how you minimized two other popular requests and then proceeded to talk about the exact reasons you can do the exact same about Banjo and yet somehow act like he's in a better place.
The thing that people don’t seem to understand is that Dixie and Geno aren’t on the same level as Banjo at all. Banjo is a full-fledged franchise that was once one of the faces of Nintendo and yet has never been represented in Smash. Can you say the same thing about Dixie or Geno? No, you can’t, no matter how you try to spin it. Banjo is a much bigger deal than either of them
 

Swop

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Banjo-Kazooie themed ride? Let them go all the way and have them create "Witchy World", Who wouldn't want to go to a jacked up theme park with life threatening rides, sketchy employees and unsanitary fast food?

Disney World be damned.
you have no idea how badly I would want to visit a Real life Witchyworld, the "Dark, Sketchy Carnival at night" Aesthetic is oddly enough super Comfortable imo, Before I even Enter Witchyworld in B-T, I always get a good look around the entrance to the level, the Flume of Doom, the rusty Iron Gate walls and the Trees over in the hilltop above the lake, theres just something about it that gets me super excited and willing to put myself into peril for just the hell of it.

Whoever did the skyboxes and Textures for the Banjo Series is a God among men.
 

Organization XIII

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The thing that people don’t seem to understand is that Dixie and Geno aren’t on the same level as Banjo at all. Banjo is a full-fledged franchise that was once one of the faces of Nintendo and yet has never been represented in Smash. Can you say the same thing about Dixie or Geno? No, you can’t, no matter how you try to spin it. Banjo is a much bigger deal than either of them
That's great but he isn't a first party anymore. If he was your argument would hold merit but he's third party. He's going to against the likes of much bigger characters then he is so he's got the exact same problem as Geno. Which is he just has popularity in a series where that's not the most important quality.
 

ChunkySlugger72

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It's funny how you minimized two other popular requests and then proceeded to talk about the exact reasons you can do the exact same about Banjo and yet somehow act like he's in a better place.
I don't want to act like Banjo-Kazooie is untouchable and no one can criticize it ,But one could could argue that Banjo-Kazooie played a major role during the N64 era and is a main character of their franchise while Dixie Kong is the 4th most important character in the DK franchise and is pretty much Diddy's sidekick, DK (Main Protagonist) Diddy Kong (Sidekick) King K. Rool (Main Antagonist)

While Geno has his fans, At the end of the day he is a "Side Character" in a one time spinoff "Mario" game, This is Mario RPG not Geno RPG, Mario is the main character and it's his game.

While Banjo-Kazooie's time with Nintendo was short they definitely left their mark during that era, front cover of Nintendo Power, food commercials, VHS tape promotion, plushies, various types of advertisements, Nintendo was marketing them as the "Next Big IP/New Kids on the block.

I like Dixie Kong and wouldn't mind seeing her Smash, I could care less about Geno ,But if Banjo-Kazooie, Dixie Kong and Geno had the exact same amount of votes on a ballot and level of support, Banjo-Kazooie hands down is the bigger name and had a bigger impact.

Main characters bring more hype than secondary characters.

Dixie does have the edge by being 1st Party though.
 
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That's great but he isn't a first party anymore. If he was your argument would hold merit but he's third party. He's going to against the likes of much bigger characters then he is so he's got the exact same problem as Geno. Which is he just has popularity in a series where that's not the most important quality.
This argument is irrelevant too. There are plenty of much bigger characters than Joker that we could’ve got but yet we got Joker. They’re gonna add whoever they want whether they’re third party or not. And again, Geno is not on the same level as Banjo, third party or not. Geno continues to not be in Smash not because he’s third party, but because he’s just flat out not that important. He’s a spinoff character from a spinoff Mario game. That’s literally the extent of his history. Banjo is not only the face of his series which has numerous games, but the BK games on the N64 were the top 10-15 N64 games of all time. I swear people just tend to jumble Banjo in with the other fan requests and put them all on the same level without considering their actual history and credentials and how it would apply to Smash
 

EricTheGamerman

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I don't want to act like Banjo-Kazooie is untouchable and no one can criticize it ,But one could could argue that Banjo-Kazooie played a major role during the N64 era and is a main character of their franchise while Dixie Kong is the 4th most important character in the DK franchise and is pretty much Diddy's sidekick, DK (Main Protagonist) Diddy Kong (Sidekick) King K. Rool (Main Antagonist)

While Geno has his fans, At the end of the day he is a "Side Character" in a one time spinoff "Mario" game, This is Mario RPG not Geno RPG, Mario is the main character and it's his game.

While Banjo-Kazooie's time with Nintendo was short they definitely left their mark during that era, front cover of Nintendo Power, food commercials, VHS tape promotion, plushies, various types of advertisements, Nintendo was marketing them as the "Next Big IP/New Kids on the block.

I like Dixie Kong and wouldn't mind seeing her Smash, I could care less about Geno ,But if Banjo-Kazooie, Dixie Kong and Geno had the exact same amount of votes on a ballot and level of support, Banjo-Kazooie hands down is the bigger name and had a bigger impact.

Main characters bring more hype than secondary characters.

Dixie does have the edge by being 1st Party though.
I think Dixie deserves a little more credit than that. She's been in as the sidekick (DKC 2) and protagonist (DKC 3) before while being one of the handful of Donkey Kong characters to actually appear in the modern era and not actively forgotten. She's got a recency on her with Tropical Freeze that makes her more reasonable, particularly because she is a First Party character.

More than Banjo? Probably not, but she's not really all that far removed from Banjo in terms of recognition either. And she also basically has no red tape in comparison to Banjo or really any other third party character. That hasn't helped other notable first party absentees though like Toad, Bandanna Dee, and Waluigi (And certainly hasn't helped other notable first party fan requests with less recognition like Isaac).

She's in a bit of a weird spot, but she's also had a much better recent history than Banjo has and would conceivably be super easy to implement since Diddy Kong can be used to create her around. Hell, I think she's got a real shot at being an extra semi-clone outside of the Fighter's Pass if we get more DLC fighters.
 
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I think Dixie deserves a little more credit than that. She's been in as the sidekick (DKC 2) and protagonist (DKC 3) before while being one of the handful of Donkey Kong characters to actually appear in the modern era and not actively forgotten. She's got a recency on her with Tropical Freeze that makes her more reasonable, particularly because she is a First Party character.

More than Banjo? Probably not, but she's not really all that far removed from Banjo in terms of recognition either. And she also basically has no red tape in comparison to Banjo or really any other third party character. That hasn't helped other notable first party absentees though like Toad, Bandanna Dee, and Waluigi (And certainly hasn't helped other notable first party fan requests with less recognition like Isaac).

She's in a bit of a weird spot, but she's also had a much better recent history than Banjo has and would conceivably be super easy to implement since Diddy Kong can be used to create her around. Hell, I think she's got a real shot at being an extra semi-clone outside of the Fighter's Pass if we get more DLC fighters.
I think Dixie’s main problem is just that Sakurai seems to be content with the DK representation in Smash. It took him long enough to finally even add K. Rool. It’s sort of like Bandana Waddle Dee. People always clamor for him, but at the end of the day the Kirby series isn’t really in need of any more representation. But at the same time I guess you could’ve said the same thing a long time ago about Fire Emblem. But anyway that’s just my two cents
 
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Organization XIII

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This argument is irrelevant too. There are plenty of much bigger characters than Joker that we could’ve got but yet we got Joker. They’re gonna add whoever they want whether they’re third party or not. And again, Geno is not on the same level as Banjo, third party or not. Geno continues to not be in Smash not because he’s third party, but because he’s just flat out not that important. He’s a spinoff character from a spinoff Mario game. That’s literally the extent of his history. Banjo is not only the face of his series which has numerous games, but the BK games on the N64 were the top 10-15 N64 games of all time. I swear people just tend to jumble Banjo in with the other fan requests and put them all on the same level without considering their actual history and credentials and how it would apply to Smash
How do you not understand? Banjo's time has past. The only people who care about his history are us the fans who have given him his popularity. He was on his way to being an icon and a stand out series for sure but he was cut down due to the buyout. We are in the exact situation as Geno. A hasbeen character who should belong to Nintendo but doesn't and is only kept around by the fans. We can brandy around how much he meant during the N64 era but if you haven't noticed we aren't in the late 90's and early 2000's anymore. Showing why Geno isn't a viable choice hurts us too. We want more characters like Geno because it helps cement popularity as mattering. Banjo could have been important to gaming but right now he's more of a fun fact whereas the rest of Microsoft still has Steve and Master Chief under their belt for potential characters if they are even approached for Smash at all. We are still in a weak position and saying crap like other characters don't matter as much due being a "side character" or whatever just highlights how Smash doesn't emphasize popularity our one saving grace for Banjo.
Oh, and Persona did lower the bar for entry for sure but Joker is still the most notable Atlus character around and wasn't a popular request.

I don't want to act like Banjo-Kazooie is untouchable and no one can criticize it ,But one could could argue that Banjo-Kazooie played a major role during the N64 era and is a main character of their franchise while Dixie Kong is the 4th most important character in the DK franchise and is pretty much Diddy's sidekick, DK (Main Protagonist) Diddy Kong (Sidekick) King K. Rool (Main Antagonist)

While Geno has his fans, At the end of the day he is a "Side Character" in a one time spinoff "Mario" game, This is Mario RPG not Geno RPG, Mario is the main character and it's his game.

While Banjo-Kazooie's time with Nintendo was short they definitely left their mark during that era, front cover of Nintendo Power, food commercials, VHS tape promotion, plushies, various types of advertisements, Nintendo was marketing them as the "Next Big IP/New Kids on the block.

I like Dixie Kong and wouldn't mind seeing her Smash, I could care less about Geno ,But if Banjo-Kazooie, Dixie Kong and Geno had the exact same amount of votes on a ballot and level of support, Banjo-Kazooie hands down is the bigger name and had a bigger impact.

Main characters bring more hype than secondary characters.

Dixie does have the edge by being 1st Party though.
Same as above.
 
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EricTheGamerman

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How do you not understand? Banjo's time has past. The only people who care about his history are us the fans who have given him his popularity. He was on his way to being an icon and a stand out series for sure but he was cut down due to the buyout. We are in the exact situation as Geno. A hasbeen character who should belong to Nintendo but doesn't and is only kept around by the fans. We can brandy around how much he meant during the N64 era but if you haven't noticed we aren't in the late 90's and early 2000's anymore. Showing why Geno isn't a viable choice hurts us too. We want more characters like Geno because it helps cement popularity as mattering. Banjo could have been important to gaming but right now he's more of a fun fact whereas the rest of Microsoft still has Steve and Master Chief under their belt for potential characters if they are even approached for Smash at all. We are still in a weak position and saying crap like other characters don't matter as much due being a "side character" or whatever just highlights how Smash doesn't emphasize popularity our one saving grace for Banjo.
Oh, and Persona did lower the bar for entry for sure but Joker is still the most notable Atlus character around and wasn't a popular request.



Same as above.
Here's the issue though, Geno was never on his way to being an icon of any sort. Super Mario RPG as a whole is a bit isolated because of how soon Square fell out with Nintendo after its release and it was such a late title on the SNES. A beloved one by many for sure, but a title that suffered from its timing. Not to mention, Geno himself has never been a guaranteed takeaway from Super Mario RPG. He's usually loved by many of those same fans, but there's a lot to Super Mario RPG. There's no guarantee that people who play the game will achieve any sort of bond with him just playing the game, the whole Mario RPG element might be what they choose to enjoy the most. Similarly, Super Mario RPG did influence future Mario RPGs, but Geno himself isn't really a part of that legacy beyond being a part of Super Mario RPG. You can argue "endearing side characters" and I'll give a little bit of credit to that, but that's the entire game and again not just Geno.

I understand why you're saying that we shouldn't discredit a character's chances and that we all only gain when popular characters make it into Smash. I generally agree with that ideology, but I also have to point out that Banjo Kazooie has some inherent claim to fame and legacy that Geno unfortunately doesn't really have going for him. Their big difference is that Geno relies completely on fan demand, whereas at least Banjo Kazooie has a more specific legacy as N64 icons to fall back upon and Banjo Kazooie have at least made notable appearances since their first appearance. They appeared in Banjo Tooie, Banjo Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge, Banjo Pilot, and Banjo: Nuts and Bolts. They also had guest appearances with Banjo in Diddy Kong Racing and the duo in Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing Transformed. They have a legacy that genuinely extends outside of just a Smash fandom.

I love Geno and I absolutely want him in, I'll never back down from that. But he's also the most popular character in just the absolute worst situation and he relies entirely on fan demand to even be a topic of discussion, let alone get into the game. I still think he has a shot because of that fan demand and potentially a little bit of Sakurai bias and love helping us out (Plus we've already got Square Enix on board for content in Smash), but ignoring the realities of his situation get us nowhere. Especially when we're actively discussing the chances of characters and their merits.

Edit: It IS worth backing you up that Geno isn't so much a side-character as a party-member, and those are generally considered main characters of their respective games, so "side-character" doesn't really fit him.
 
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TheCJBrine

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I like Geno, but I don't see Banjo-Kazooie on the same level as him, or how they could be seen as so.

B-K has their own series, has had recent merchandise, and Rare continues to acknowledge them whether through fan-recognition or by referencing them in their games, like Sea of Thieves. When Nintendo had them, Banjo-Kazooie was basically one of their mascot franchises.

With recent info and Phil Spencer's words, that also makes B-K look big, at least in terms of their chances for Smash, even if their last game was in 2008. They're not obscure or niche, they're relatively well-known, including outside the Smash bubble.
 
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andree123

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Hey, if Banjo has the Breegull Blaster as a special move, Kazooie becomes a item that can be used by others, if she is outside of Banjo's backpack while in a item state, most of Kazooie's moves are replaced by Banjo's moves. (PLUS! She will instantly respawn back into Banjo's backpack if she (while in a item state) is destroyed or she reaches into the Blast lines.)
 

pupNapoleon

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Here's another reason why I have no hopes for good DLC:

https://twitter.com/SykinSG/status/1119380981515988993

This is really sad.
It is.
The guy who posted it specifically says:
"a lot of his moves are borrowed(in concept, not animation, like some people are interpreting.)"
And that's ridiculous.
In animation, the moves are similar. That's the exact point of the slow motion animation comparison.
Conceptually- ... a swing forward, or up? Across fifteen characters? That's... borrowed?

I'd give him the argument for animations. Which still does not matter to me for human characters.
But to argue the concepts are similar? He loses the argument.
 

SpectreJordan

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I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here and say that Banjo's chances feel wonky to me. Yea, you have Phil's comments, you have the radio silence from the parties involved regarding Banjo, etc. At the same time, there's something fishy with how things have transpired thus far. And not just in B-K's favor, but also against their chances. If I had to hazard another guess, it's because any revival of Banjo's going to have to be with gusto.
Not just a Smash appearance in my eyes - if you ask me, the Smash appearance increases interest in the character which is best served by being followed up. Take :4megaman:'s example, where his appearance came just as Capcom just had a string of PR disasters and several questions about the company's future. The appearance lead to the Classic Collections within two years, and X Collections as well as 11 arriving within four - helping to turn Capcom's fortunes around. Likewise, if Banjo gets in then it would be a shame to only have them in Smash within the next 4-5 years; I'd much rather have Microsoft follow up with Kazooie / Tooie remakes and / or a new Banjo game within 2-4 years of the Smash appearance.

That's where I hit a roadblock mentally, since Microsoft probably wants a competent team behind a Banjo-Threeie. But they're also likely focusing on the Nextbox as well as Halo Infinite (Halo Youtuber HiddenXperia posted a video where he believed a nuts rumor with a grain of salt: Infinite's budget being $500 Million. No. Joke.). Of course, Microsoft's a huge company - what I'm saying is that if they plan on remaking Kazooie / Tooie or making a new Banjo game they are probably going to tread really carefully with that. So the new Banjo game won't release around (and be completely overshadowed by) Infinite. No matter how Infinite's recieved.
Microsoft’s new goal when it comes to gaming is to boost Game Pass. It’s definitely one of the main reasons they’ve bought so many developers recently.

You boost Game Pass subs by having a constant stream of games that you can only get on Game Pass. So I don’t think Halo: Infinite would be a problem when it comes to a new Banjo happening.

In fact, Game Pass could really help a new Banjo game’s chances. They’ll need some diversity when it comes to exclusive content on Game Pass, a 3D platformer would be just that especially if they can get it to be as good as the originals or Mario Odyssey.
 

N3ON

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Dunno if it counts a shoddy theory, but outside of what Phil said about Banjo, the fact that 3rd party DLC Mii Costumes have made a return pretty much guarantees that IF we get Minecraft content at all, it’ll be relegated to that. But not only that, if MC content has indeed been leaked, that that only further elevates Banjo’s chances.

I mean, c’mon, you can’t look at this and not tell me it wouldn’t be the perfect way to do it.

View attachment 210535
Far be it from me to say Steve or some other square **** wouldn't make sense as a Mii costume. I just don't think that comes at not also making sense as a character.

How do you not understand? Banjo's time has past. The only people who care about his history are us the fans who have given him his popularity. He was on his way to being an icon and a stand out series for sure but he was cut down due to the buyout. We are in the exact situation as Geno. A hasbeen character who should belong to Nintendo but doesn't and is only kept around by the fans. We can brandy around how much he meant during the N64 era but if you haven't noticed we aren't in the late 90's and early 2000's anymore. Showing why Geno isn't a viable choice hurts us too. We want more characters like Geno because it helps cement popularity as mattering. Banjo could have been important to gaming but right now he's more of a fun fact whereas the rest of Microsoft still has Steve and Master Chief under their belt for potential characters if they are even approached for Smash at all. We are still in a weak position and saying crap like other characters don't matter as much due being a "side character" or whatever just highlights how Smash doesn't emphasize popularity our one saving grace for Banjo.
Twenty years later and you're still going to have a lot more people recognize Banjo than Geno due to one being the titular protagonist of a successful series with multiple titles and the other being a supporting one-off in a spin-off during a console's twilight years that didn't release globally.

Sure the long bout of nothing will fade those stars, but given Banjo's shone so much brighter to begin with, he's still left with more.
 

MonkeyDLenny

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Microsoft’s new goal when it comes to gaming is to boost Game Pass. It’s definitely one of the main reasons they’ve bought so many developers recently.

You boost Game Pass subs by having a constant stream of games that you can only get on Game Pass. So I don’t think Halo: Infinite would be a problem when it comes to a new Banjo happening.

In fact, Game Pass could really help a new Banjo game’s chances. They’ll need some diversity when it comes to exclusive content on Game Pass, a 3D platformer would be just that especially if they can get it to be as good as the originals or Mario Odyssey.
Game Pass really has a great selection of games, but honestly the idea that I'm basically just 'renting' these games and not outright owning them if I stop paying the monthly fee puts me off. My own reservations aside this would be monumental if it came to the Switch
 

N3ON

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Game Pass really has a great selection of games, but honestly the idea that I'm basically just 'renting' these games and not outright owning them if I stop paying the monthly fee puts me off. My own reservations aside this would be monumental if it came to the Switch
Are you holding out on Netflix too?
 

MonkeyDLenny

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Are you holding out on Netflix too?
Netflix is a little different, to me anyway. Movies/TV shows are something you watch at least once and then you don't come back to it for a good long while. Video Games are something that you basically continuously come back to

On Netflix I stream a show I like and that's it, I'm done with it. I might go back and watch it again at some point but I'm basically finished.
With Game Pass, I would have to actually download say, Sea of Thieves and play it. If I cancel the subscription I basically have software on my computer that's now pay-walled if I want to play it again, or I delete it and lose everything.

I mean I get it, it's not like you can just pay for one month and pillage the catalog for games and then cancel and essentially get free stuff. But I feel like if I'm gonna get paywalled for my games I might as well buy them outright.

I don't know if that explanation makes sense; Netflix just feels different than Game Pass to me at least and that's the best way I can put it into words.
 

TheAnvil

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Dixie fans made the same argument. So did Geno fans. The whole "older fans love this character" only gets so much traction. To my knowledge only a small collection of characters were picked purely because of fan request. Most of the time characters are picked because they are either:

1. Huge gaming icons
2. Currently new and popular
3. Offer some sort of unique and unexpected surprise.

I think Sakurai prioritizes those things over fan demand. Especially with paid DLC where in order to make the best profit they should try to get as many people to buy it as possible. The old school fans of the N64 era make up a small portion compared to those who'd buy a gaming icon or a contemporary hero.

Now that doesn't mean Banjo won't happen. The five DLC characters might try to appeal to different audiences. Joker would appeal to the contemporary. Erdrick would be the classic gaming icon. Banjo could be the fan requested character. Who knows? I certainly don't.
The Geno and Banjo comparisons are baffling. The only thing they have in common is that they're both requested for Smash.

Geno is a one-shot character from a Mario spinoff, he was never used or seen again (apart from a small cameo) around 25 years ago. He wasn't even the main character, he was a side character.

Banjo originated in a Donkey Kong spinoff, and then went on to define the 3D platforming genre. He had 6 starring roles in games spanning the N64, Xbox 360 and Gameboy Advance. He arguably even came back into prominence as the face of Rare Replay in 2015.
 

N3ON

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Netflix is a little different, to me anyway. Movies/TV shows are something you watch at least once and then you don't come back to it for a good long while. Video Games are something that you basically continuously come back to
That's a bit of a generalization, wouldn't you say? I've personally spent a lot longer getting through some tv series than games.

On Netflix I stream a show I like and that's it, I'm done with it. I might go back and watch it again at some point but I'm basically finished.
With Game Pass, I would have to actually download say, Sea of Thieves and play it. If I cancel the subscription I basically have software on my computer that's now pay-walled if I want to play it again, or I delete it and lose everything.

I mean I get it, it's not like you can just pay for one month and pillage the catalog for games and then cancel and essentially get free stuff. But I feel like if I'm gonna get paywalled for my games I might as well buy them outright.
Right... and if you cancelled your Netflix subscription halfway through watching a series or you wanted to rewatch something but no longer had an active subscription it'd be the same deal. The only difference is one leaves you with a reminder. Functionally to the user, they're basically the same.

I don't know if that explanation makes sense; Netflix just feels different than Game Pass to me at least and that's the best way I can put it into words.
Hey, your feelings and your feelings, and there is a difference between the mediums, so I get that it feels different. But tbh I think that's mostly because one has been normalized and the other hasn't... yet. I remember a similar sentiment about paid music streaming services, but now they're pretty widely embraced.
 
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Speaking of Banjo Kazooie merch, here is another piece:

A Banjo Kazooie Fun Pack, an exercise book with various activities and resources included:

http://instagr.am/p/Bi1svYdl0Bl/

Interesting how the book, which was licensed in Melbourne, Australia, uses the pre release/promotional BK text and logo.

Shows you the reach the BK brand had(and to an extent still has) was far and wide!

I've got that Game Boy Camera booklet lying around in a draw somewhere.
 
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ChunkySlugger72

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How do you not understand? Banjo's time has past. The only people who care about his history are us the fans who have given him his popularity. He was on his way to being an icon and a stand out series for sure but he was cut down due to the buyout. We are in the exact situation as Geno. A hasbeen character who should belong to Nintendo but doesn't and is only kept around by the fans. We can brandy around how much he meant during the N64 era but if you haven't noticed we aren't in the late 90's and early 2000's anymore. Showing why Geno isn't a viable choice hurts us too. We want more characters like Geno because it helps cement popularity as mattering. Banjo could have been important to gaming but right now he's more of a fun fact whereas the rest of Microsoft still has Steve and Master Chief under their belt for potential characters if they are even approached for Smash at all. We are still in a weak position and saying crap like other characters don't matter as much due being a "side character" or whatever just highlights how Smash doesn't emphasize popularity our one saving grace for Banjo.
Oh, and Persona did lower the bar for entry for sure but Joker is still the most notable Atlus character around and wasn't a popular request.



Same as above.
Your making it seem like Banjo-Kazooie's "Legacy" doesn't and shouldn't matter and that the only reason they and other newcomers should be considered for Smash is because of "Popularity" regardless of background.

Banjo-Kazooie didn't just appear in Diddy Kong Racing as a one off character and fade into obscurity only to develop a "Cult Following" to show for his reasons for Smash like Geno, Banjo-Kazooie was built and brought up to be a franchise in mind with starting roles in major games and spinoffs and that's how they got their "Popularity", They freaking earned it by building their legacy even if it was somewhat short-lived.

The only major thing they have in common with Geno is that they are popular among the Smash community and it helps that he's tied to a Mario game, But BK has something that all 3rd Party Characters have in Smash that Geno doesn't and that's "Franchise Legacy".
 
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Megadoomer

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I feel like the idea of a character making it in or not because of how relevant they currently are died when K. Rool made it into Smash Ultimate, at the absolute latest. (you could also argue that applied for Mega Man, Pit, any retro characters, or the Castlevania cast)
 
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SKX31

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This argument is irrelevant too. There are plenty of much bigger characters than Joker that we could’ve got but yet we got Joker. They’re gonna add whoever they want whether they’re third party or not. And again, Geno is not on the same level as Banjo, third party or not. Geno continues to not be in Smash not because he’s third party, but because he’s just flat out not that important. He’s a spinoff character from a spinoff Mario game. That’s literally the extent of his history. Banjo is not only the face of his series which has numerous games, but the BK games on the N64 were the top 10-15 N64 games of all time. I swear people just tend to jumble Banjo in with the other fan requests and put them all on the same level without considering their actual history and credentials and how it would apply to Smash
That said, we're getting to a point where the N64 era was 18-20 years ago at the very latest. Soon, there'll be legal adults younger than Banjo-Tooie. Since Tooie, B-K has struggled outside of rereleases and Microsoft has seen the PR disaster (N&B, regardless of how one views the game's quality, was a PR disaster*) that can result from mishandling the IP. Shifting B-K to another genre is likely to be viewed as HERESY because of the scar that said PR disaster left. In short, B-K's both seen success (Kazooie sold 3.5 million, Tooie 1,5) and financial disaster. There's major risk.

In short, I'm again reiterating that Microsoft probably wants to be sure that they can leverage the hype that a B-K Smash appearance would give into something more. Yes, B-K has a decently strong continuing presence on Youtube etc. Yes, there's active interest as seen in the Yooka-Laylee Kickstarter. The problem is? Yooka-Laylee didn't become a smash success exactly - "only" a decent success. I could see Microsoft having noticed that and deciding against developing another Banjo game at the time when Rare's busy with Sea of Thieves and ex-Banjo devs left and formed Playtonic.

In short, B-K's currently in a very, very precarious position. As I mentioned in one of my latest posts here, a Banjo Smash appearance could wind up being the only thing that happens to the duo within the next 4-5 years. I'm pretty sure most here (including me) would dread that scenario. Wanting is better than having.

That's why I've been harping on a competent dev team as a remedy to the problem. Much easier said than done - but look at Sonic Mania and Crash N-Sane / Spyro Reignited. Spyro Reignited is very much like the route I want to see B-K take: Focus on getting a HD remake of Kazooie / Tooie going, and you're free to add the other Banjo games (Yes, N&B included. Otherwise you're liable to start an ugly flame war) as bonuses. Make sure that the dev team have the time, budget and the space needed to get used to how things work. If Microsoft wants to go the extra mile, they could go for a 4K option too for the remasters. They already have the One X capable of doing that, and the Nextbox is likely to be built with that in mind.

Of course, the timing right now is rather awkward for B-K remasters / new game, with the Nextbox and Halo Infinite likely being Microsoft's top console priorities at the moment. I do agree with SpectreJordan SpectreJordan that Game Pass could be one of the ways to go, just need to make sure any remaster or new project doesn't release within a month of Infinite's likely massive gravitational pull.

As for how a Banjo-Threeie would play? Great question. Open world games have seen an explosion in the last 18-20 years, so a Banjo-Threeie might borrow mechanics from GTA, AC, Minecraft, whatever (I don't expect the weapons, natch :p ). But I don't think the people here can agree on how much it should borrow from outside sources, and how much they should stick to the old course. Yooka-Laylee could play a role here as inspiration, but a possible Threeie's going to be a real tight balancing act either way.

(*Mind, L.O.G. was an intentional hate sink, a character one's supposed to hate, Gone Horribly Right)
 
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Mr. Stagg

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I feel like the idea of a character making it in or not because of how relevant they currently are died when K. Rool made it into Smash Ultimate, at the absolute latest. (you could also argue that applied for Mega Man, Pit, any retro characters, or the Castlevania cast)
You'd think people would learn to let go of those annoying Strawmen. We can sit here and dance around it all day but it always boils down to the fact that most of these characters were not used or seen for a significant amount of time.
 

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I... Honestly think the Geno and BK comparaison isn't necessary.

Their only common points are :
-Popular within the Smash fandom
-Created by another company but Nintendo should have their rights , since their companies don't use them much and are more fitting as Nintendo characters. (Microsoft at least did try a game and ported Kazooie/Tooie + some merchandise. Square didn't do **** with Geno , beside the remixes of Forest Maze and Goodbye Geno in the "Mémoria !" album.)

People love Geno because he represent the potential the Mario RPGs had , character and story wise. (same for Mallow , and the other original characters) There's also the fact that he was present within a lot of people's childhood and that his "possessed star warrior puppet" is just cool as heck for youngers players.
But as we all know , SE kept their rights and didn't used them because they didn't had any opportunities to do so. They need Nintendo and the Mario franchise to do something big with them. (I could argue that they can be used as summons in Final Fantasy , but SE never took the opportunity)

Also , I think that it's harsh to call him a secondary character.
He's a main character , otherwise other party members such as Peach and Bowser would be considered secondary characters and... The main characters would be Mario and Exor/Smithy ?
Geno is a main character , but he's not the protagonist , that title go to Mario.

A side character would be someone like Gaz , Frogfucius , Booster , Valentina , ect...

And yeah... Banjo and Kazooie have a legacy that still live on today. If people are still talking about the duo , their games , and creating fan content for them , that's when a character have a real legacy for me.
That's a very important point for me : They're not at their best right now , but still have a ton of spotlight.

People still do let's plays of their games ! The point is , there is a ton of fan-content made for the duo and their franchise , so this show that a return and a new game would be GREATLY APPRECIATED.

And before people say "but average joe/jane won't know them !"... Who ****ing care ? Yes , familiarty is good for selling DLCs , but Banjo and Kazooie character's design alongside their moveset is far more than enough to sell them in my opinion.
Make them look cool and people will buy them ! THAT'S WHAT MATTER MOST TO MOST PEOPLE , THE CHARACTER NEED TO BE FUN TO PLAY AS !

I know they were veterans back in Sm4sh... But let's be serious for one second :
How many people unlocked :roymelee: back in Melee ?
Heck , how many people unlocked someone past :jigglypuffmelee: and :drmario:?

Yeah , not a lot of people compared to how many copies of Melee were sold.

Despise that , the reception to Roy beeing Sm4sh DLC was positive , and he sold pretty well because... He looked cool to play as ! And Roy's game wasn't even officialy released outside of Japan , FE6 has not been localized to this day !

But still , I could understand why Microsoft would feel skeptical about them to some extent. They have other big/or popular names that could completely work for Smash. (Steve , Master Chief , Cuphead/Mugman , ect...)
There is a risk by putting them in Smash , instead of another character that would push sales of actual games available of a franchise , and future games of thus said franchise.

However , remakes of Kazooie/Tooie would sell immensely well with BK in Smash. As long as they don't overprice these remakes , they have the perfect target audience (Nintendo's playerbase) and the perfect system for collect-a-thon (Switch , allow for short and long sessions.) , and a big nostalgia factor.
And these kind of games (especially with BK's designs) have an easier time finding an audience on Nintendo's consoles , than on their consoles. (There's bound to be more kids owning a Switch over a XBOX ONE because of the price and the Nintendo exclusives)
Also talking about Microsoft collect-a-thon on XBOX ONE... Lucky Tale on Switch when ?

The thing is , Banjo and Kazooie are the perfect candidate if they want a bridge to completely join Nintendo.
I'm no sales expert , but from what Iv'e seen the XBOX ONE isn't... Doing very well. Especially compared to the success of the XBOX 360.

Heck , besides Cuphead last year , I can't name a single XBOX ONE exclusive.

Of course , going from making consoles to only making video games is a big changment... But their situation remind me of the one SEGA had with the Dreamcast honestly. Not one to one , but there is definitely some big similarities.

So , to be simple ;

Banjo and Kazooie are the perfect character for a new start with Nintendo. They are loved , their games completely fit in with Nintendo's library and playerbase , they have potential for more games. (compared to Steve , once you buy Minecraft... That's it. Yeah they are others games , but they are spin-off. Steve will only sell Minecraft copies , where BK could sell Kazooie/Tooie/Nuts and Bolt/Threeie/Grunty's revenge copies , and more !)
Of course you could make an argument for Minecraft merchandise... But BK can easily have a ton more of merchandise with a potential return.

So this is my opinion on the matter , any criticism to make ?
 

Nazyrus

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I feel like the idea of a character making it in or not because of how relevant they currently are died when K. Rool made it into Smash Ultimate, at the absolute latest. (you could also argue that applied for Mega Man, Pit, any retro characters, or the Castlevania cast)
That is 100% true. People trying to bring "relevancy" as a counter strike for a character, are just trying too hard to deny their chances in vain. Not a valid argument at all anymore.
 

Dinoman96

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That is 100% true. People trying to bring "relevancy" as a counter strike for a character, are just trying too hard to deny their chances in vain. Not a valid argument at all anymore.
I sure do love playing as Geno and Isaac in Smash
 

TheAnvil

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I sure do love playing as Geno and Isaac in Smash
Geno has a lot of hangups, only catering to a very small number of people who even remember the character.

Isaac's support never reached the heights of the most requested characters like K. Rool and Ridley no matter how much his fans want that to be true.
 

Mr. Stagg

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I sure do love playing as Geno and Isaac in Smash
No need to take that tone. Geno and Issac dont have their owners publicly stating how much they want them to be in Smash. We get what you are saying, but no need to be sarcastic about it.
 

Nazyrus

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I sure do love playing as Geno and Isaac in Smash
You're implying the reason they didn't get picked was based on relevancy? Then you're already failing here, massively, if you are pretending to know what the criteria Sakurai truly has for picking characters. You don't work for them nor has any connection towards the creator to know such thing.
 

pupNapoleon

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Man this thread is getting nasty.

In short, B-K's currently in a very, very precarious position. As I mentioned in one of my latest posts here, a Banjo Smash appearance could wind up being the only thing that happens to the duo within the next 4-5 years. I'm pretty sure most here (including me) would dread that scenario. Wanting is better than having.
What on Earth are you talking about? I'm here because I want to HAVE Banjo and Kazooie in Smash, not because I want to want them. Another game would be great, fine, but I'm on a thread for him to be in Smash Bros. This paragraph is not out of context- the post just doesnt make sense.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You're implying the reason they didn't get picked was based on relevancy? Then you're already failing here, massively, if you are pretending to know what the criteria Sakurai truly has for picking characters. You don't work for them nor has any connection towards the creator to know such thing.
It does apply for Isaac, though. The game series has been on hiatus for quite a while. It thankfully got a ton of content after barely existing in 4, but its lack of relevancy is an important factor for Sakurai. He even outright said that relevancy can play a role in deciding a character choice. At least Castlevania as a series was active, same with MegaMan, and Donkey Kong, so that certainly helped make them easier to add characters for. It's not the entire decision, but it does play a role that should not be ignored.

Whereas all those examples like K. Rool are from game series that kept relevant. The character might not be, but the series was. So the comparisons fall flat. Right now, the only thing keep B-K relevant is the merchandise, which is still more than Golden Sun has, actually. I mean, Rare Replay too, but VC type stuff isn't nearly as big as new games or full re-releases. Or even major material from the actual franchise(it seems like toys don't mean too much? A lot still think B-K isn't relevant despite being clearly used by Microsoft lately).
 

Dinoman96

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You're implying the reason they didn't get picked was based on relevancy? Then you're already failing here, massively, if you are pretending to know what the criteria Sakurai truly has for picking characters. You don't work for them nor has any connection towards the creator to know such thing.
I mean, you're in Polarpanda's discord, aren't you? Shouldn't you know that her Nintendo ambassador fellow who knew about the Link's Awakening remake also said that Sakurai shot down Isaac regardless of his popularity on the ballot because of his irrelevancy?

isaacsakurai.png


And Sakurai said he rarely chooses characters without a future, right here.
 
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pupNapoleon

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(it seems like toys don't mean too much? A lot still think B-K isn't relevant despite being clearly used by Microsoft lately).
Toys matter a bunch. Notice how even huge events like movies, such as Avengers: Endgame, still force sales of their merchandise through toys.
Merchandise makes brands.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Toys matter a bunch. Notice how even huge events like movies, such as Avengers: Endgame, still force sales of their merchandise through toys.
Merchandise makes brands.
They might not matter for games. They do for stuff like Movies/Animations/Cartoons/Anime, but games are a whole different thing. They're completely different kinds of works. Might help for comics/manga too, but I'm not sure on comics alone. I think what mattered for Transformers' toys was the various cartoons/anime. The comics did fine otherwise.
 

pupNapoleon

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They might not matter for games. They do for stuff like Movies/Animations/Cartoons/Anime, but games are a whole different thing. They're completely different kinds of works. Might help for comics/manga too, but I'm not sure on comics alone. I think what mattered for Transformers' toys was the various cartoons/anime. The comics did fine otherwise.
They matter in building a franchise- it's not just about money, it's about getting your product in consumers faces. In marketing economics, an individual needs to see a brand roughly seven times before they even begin to recognize what it is. Merchandise is not only extreme amounts of money in the pocket, but it builds the brand for those who buy, and those who see those purchases (ie- kids playing).
 

Nazyrus

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I mean, you're in Polarpanda's discord, aren't you? Shouldn't you know that her Nintendo ambassador fellow who knew about the Link's Awakening remake also said that Sakurai shot down Isaac regardless of his popularity on the ballot because of his irrelevancy?

View attachment 210821

And Sakurai said he rarely chooses characters without a future, right here.
and you're concluding the same for Geno becaaaause…?
And again, K rool, you have "relevancy" against your own argument here. You can't apply it to every case to come either.
 
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Brothanigus

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And Sakurai said he rarely chooses characters without a future, right here.

He says this, yet ROB, G&W, Pit, Dark Pit, Palutena, Duck Hunt Duo, WII Fit trainer, Ness, Lucas, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, & Lil Mac are characters...so this reasoning is BS.

He's a hypocrite. I'm very certain his reasoning is "I don't like that franchise/character so it's not getting a rep, but here's SOMETHING so shut it."

Watch him add another irrelevant future-less character into the fighterpass. Just watch.
 
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