Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[fleshdude.gov]

I’m just speaking hypothetically if somehow we knew Banjo-Kazooie was going to be represented in Smash. “Promise” may be a stretch sure, but I’m still sticking with my TV dinner analogy.

Your analogy only works on the assumption that we know the content of the fighter’s pass - but we don’t.

A far more apt analogy would be being promised a meal you don’t know the contents of and then being upset when it’s a TV dinner steak. Sure, it’s reasonable to be disappointed, but you were never promised any sort of quality in the first place. Be glad it wasn’t a fried shoe.

 

[N3ON]

I’m just speaking hypothetically if somehow we knew Banjo-Kazooie was going to be represented in Smash. “Promise” may be a stretch sure, but I’m still sticking with my TV dinner analogy.

You say it's hypothetical, but the analogy shows that's not how you're treating it.

Though to be fair, it's kind of hard not to do that in some cases for lesser series. But I'm not sure if I'm doing that for my Quest support? I always worry it's too shoehorned in, even when the example makes some sense. Anyway, I agree. Rationale or bust. It's probably due to my "I try my damnest to be very honest" flaw/feature.

I'm mostly speaking to the practices I've seen in this thread. And the support doesn't always have to be in favour of something.

Yeah. I hate the shoving bias part the most. You were right. Cool. Bragging about it reflects poorly on you. No need to do so. I mean, slightly mentioning it if it comes might be fine sometimes(like I sometimes mention that I was damn sure Isabelle wouldn't be an echo if it's literally brought up why Sakurai didn't make her one), but beyond that is kind of uncalled for. Being happy you were right isn't the same thing. I'm a bit tired, so I should've made my point more clear. Thanks for saying it better than I did.

I do like the compromise angle. I'll take it over "nothing". If Banjo doesn't become playable, any foot in the door would only increase his overall chances. Sure, he might stay a cameo(poor Isaac), but he might not. But it won't hurt because your character is actually in.

I just think saying you'd rather have nothing is a transient stance that fades the longer you actually have something. Right now it's easy to say you'd rather have nothing, because you have nothing, so you wouldn't lose anything. But it's a few months since Isaac was revealed, for example, and I think at this point people would rather keep what they have over lose it again.

But I guess it's a hard concept to wrap your head around if you're convinced you'll get the character. Not that I'm speaking about Banjo specifically here.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

To put my two cents in, if Banjo-Kazooie end up a Mii costume...I'm sorry, that would feel like a slap in the face, even more-so than if they weren't in at all. And regarding "the next game", the main reason why I want them in Ultimate specifically is because it's the most special Smash game in the series because it brought everyone back; there were no cuts whatsoever, and Sakurai's already confirmed that if there is a next game, then pulling a repeat of that would be unlikely. I apologize if this comes off as somewhat petty, but it's honestly how I would feel if they don't get in this game as actual fighters.

I feel the same way, I know some people would view it as a consolation prize and say it's better than nothing, But to me it will just be a tease and constant reminder of how close we could of gotten Banjo-Kazooie into Smash only to fall short, Even though they still got permission to use the rights/license.

I don't know about everyone here ,But me personally I am sick of Mii's, They were fine during the Wii and to a lesser extent the Wii U era, But I wish Nintendo would have retired them along with the Wii branding at the end of the Wii U era.

At least they are in a minor capacity now in the Switch era, But I still find their generic and squeaky voices (Mario Kart and Smash) and people's attempts at making overly ugly or certain popular characters with really lame and annoying.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Can you at least offer us something we all can agree on in regards to Banjo's chances as a fighter? None of this Mii fighter stuff, a legit, 100% main line fighter. I'm not looking for excuses, I just want to hear what you think they've got going for them. What can we look at in regards to the Duo that gives us hope? Since you and N3ON are the usual voices of contention lets hear your reasons why they are likely.

I feel like a lot of this back and forth about Steve and various theories rattles people the wrong way when all we want is to have a little fun talking about Banjo and Kazooie with memes involved, lets get something we all can agree on. Lets try to get a little positivity going here. This is a support thread, right? What supports our cause here?

They're actually still gaming icons. That's all they need to have a reasonable chance of being playable. It doesn't matter if they're a bit more niche than some either. It doesn't matter if there's characters that are more known as is then they are iconic-wise. They still have all the key merits they need to be considered. The only one that was an actual necessity for a 3rd party is "gaming history" at best. One can argue Bayonetta is the exception to that, but it was a guideline anyway, not a hard rule. And even then, she definitely made a splash on her own. Seeing her get in is a main reason why I think 3rd parties that don't top the iconic charts among a company(as in, some are more iconic than others. Obviously I've made it clear Banjo isn't as iconic as Steve to explain this point) have really good chances. I can't guarantee him 100%, obviously. But one should be optimistic without needing to create stretches. I hope I explained that well enough. I get the Steve comparison feels annoying, but it's the only way to explain my position on why I have confidence in them appearing in the game in some way as is.

I'm mostly speaking to the practices I've seen in this thread. And the support doesn't always have to be in favour of something.

True.

I just think saying you'd rather have nothing is a transient stance that fades the longer you actually have something. Right now it's easy to say you'd rather have nothing, because you have nothing, so you wouldn't lose anything. But it's a few months since Isaac was revealed, for example, and I think at this point people would rather keep what they have over lose it again.

But I guess it's a hard concept to wrap your head around if you're convinced you'll get the character. Not that I'm speaking about Banjo specifically here.

Yeah, I getcha. As a Lip fan as well, the Mii costume made me quite happy. Same with the Isaac costume. And Ashley costume. And Takamaru costume. Etc. I get some rather have "my way or the highway", though. Fair enough.

 

[JonSmash]

I think we all need to remember that sakurai said that Nintendo made a list of DLC characters to pick from & then they went from there

so even if sakurai wanted banjo in smash since melee it wouldn't matter if nintendo didn't put banjo on that list

& so far it seams nintendo wanted piranha plant & joke/ P5R female protag to be the alf of joker (guess she will get an amiibo then)

& if banjo gets in most of the haters will act like they always wanted him in just like they did with K rool like the sheep they are

& as far as I'm concerned perfect dark is canon to smash B/C Cloaking Device was in melee as well as james bond as the proximity mine AKA the motion sensor bomb was also in melee

 

[Lycan Rex]

Honestly I'd rather have nothing. At least with "nothing" there's still a possibility banjo could show up in a possible 2nd pass. A costume would just burn that bridge from the get go. Banjo has been getting nods and "consolation prizes" for years. At this point, where he has the highest chance at being playable than ever before, another "consolation prize" would be soul crushing for a lot of people. At some point when your once iconic character is being thrown around for easy nostalgia points and nothing else, you get fed up with consolation prizes.

A pattern i seem to notice is every time a popular character gets deconfirmed, there's this group that has a knee jerk reaction to act morally superior to everyone else by saying things like: "better than nothing" or "be thankful and happy no matter what". It's usually, but not always, people who weren't fans of said character to begin with, so of course it's easy for them to say.

As a Ridley fan, I've encountered this a lot. I've been called "ungrateful" and "petty" many times. "Just be thankful Ridley' s here at all" If we did that, and were just content with a couple of trophies and an annoying stage boss, fighter #65 would've probably been someone else. But we didn't, we let sakurai know we weren't happy with these and voiced our dissatisfaction. Some called it "whinning", I call it "getting your character confirmed at e3 while etika almost has a heart attack"

Rambling over. Point is, there is nothing wrong with being disappointed with your character being deconfirmed. Ultimate, and it's dlc, isn't free after all.

 

[N3ON]

Can you at least offer us something we all can agree on in regards to Banjo's chances as a fighter? None of this Mii fighter stuff, a legit, 100% main line fighter. I'm not looking for excuses, I just want to hear what you think they've got going for them. What can we look at in regards to the Duo that gives us hope? Since you and N3ON are the usual voices of contention lets hear your reasons why they are likely.

I feel like a lot of this back and forth about Steve and various theories rattles people the wrong way when all we want is to have a little fun talking about Banjo and Kazooie with memes involved, lets get something we all can agree on. Lets try to get a little positivity going here. This is a support thread, right? What supports our cause here?

Listen, I don't actually like Steve, I've never played Minecraft, and I have no intention of buying him if he shows up, but this thread by and large acts like he has no business being in Smash. That's why a lot of my posts are defending him. I've never actually raised Steve myself, every single time it's been in response to someone, you can check. Also, none of my posts are anti-Banjo. Some are against the logic employed to advocate for Banjo, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't care about the character. Again, you can check the very first page of the thread to see.

Still, to some, I guess I'm a "hater", lol. I literally have the Totaku Banjo figure on my desk at work. I just put my biases aside.

Banjo obviously has strong merit, and I think this post I made around a week ago addresses your question.

Relevancy... legacy... iconography... argue over those terms if you want, but it's almost missing the forest for the trees here. Because, labels aside, when you sell 150 million units you're a big name in the industry, and that's what Smash looks for.

It's true that the series resonates more than the character, but the series coming before the rep is not new nor irregular for third-parties. Happened both with Cloud and Simon. Because sometimes the series is most salient.

On the other hand, Banjo has very close ties with Nintendo. That seems less important than it used to be, but it has enabled him to receive a very notable amount of demand from within the fanbase, which serendipitously kicked off during the ballot. That is something which has, in the past, proved important towards inclusion as well; Smash also looks for that. Or, at least Sakurai does. Plus the timing was fortuitous.

The characters don't really have much overlap when it comes to merits, their strengths almost lie at opposite ends, but either one being included is plausible, and not without reason. Bellyaching won't change that. Who knows, maybe we'll get both.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

In terms of being content with getting something over nothing, I remember wanting Mallo (from Pushmo) and Qbby (from Boxboy) in Smash, but mostly as a joke because I couldn't ever expect them to be playable.

After all the characters I seriously wanted to join Smash didn't show up in Ultimate's base roster, I found that I was happiest with how they treated Mallo and Qbby: the two were made into Spirits. And 3-star ones, at that! Maybe don't tell the Andy supporters that part.

I wonder if those of us who would rather take nothing over a Mii costume have an "all or nothing" mentality. I feel like that can be a dangerous mentality to have, especially where Smash is involved. I'm not saying it's wrong, just not ideal. Personally, I'd be okay with a Banjo Mii costume because not only would it be something and get their foot in the door, Miis can also be used online in Ultimate, so I could use the Banjo costume online to my heart's content.
I'll admit that I also like the Miis a lot, and I've imagined how silly and great a Banjo Mii costume could be, such as a Gunner outfit with Kazooie as the gun.

It's not like I'm saying I'd prefer to get a playable Steve with a Banjo costume, because I definitely wouldn't prefer that. I'm just saying I'd be happy to take what I can get for our bear and bird.
...Then again, I'm admittedly someone who thinks Banjo doesn't have a high chance of being a DLC fighter. A nonzero chance, but still not very high.

 

[TheAnvil]

You know it's funny that when discussing Isaac the conversation goes that he wouldn't get in over Ridley and K Rool when the problem is he didn't get in alongside them. There's still other characters that got into the roster yet we are acting like it's expected that there should only be one or two fan characters added at a time. It shouldn't be Isaac or those two we should have gotten all three. There was plenty of space and plenty of time to add those 3 as newcomers.

Not really. Inklings were necessary because of Splatoon being massive. K. Rool and Ridley were two fan favorites who have been practically the most requested characters since pre-brawl (maybe even pre-Melee).

Isabelle was a rising all-star due to AC's success, we got a new 3rd Party lifted from the ballot (Castlevania) and a new Pokemon (which happens every game).

Where's the wiggle room to add Isaac?

 

[Organization XIII]

Not really. Inklings were necessary because of Splatoon being massive. K. Rool and Ridley were two fan favorites who have been practically the most requested characters since pre-brawl (maybe even pre-Melee).

Isabelle was a rising all-star due to AC's success, we got a new 3rd Party lifted from the ballot (Castlevania) and a new Pokemon (which happens every game).

Where's the wiggle room to add Isaac?

You literally just mentioned all three characters capable of being changed out for popular characters. Heck, there was even PP as he was most likely planned for base.

 

[osby]

You literally just mentioned all three characters capable of being changed out for popular characters. Heck, there was even PP as he was most likely planned for base.

But characters aren't chosen just out of popularity. Smash's newcomer rosters can be a lot of things, but they were never sheer popularity pools.

Also, I know people don't like to admit it, but Isabelle is a popular character. Not to mention she's a semi-clone, so you can't switch her with just any character.

 

[Mr. Stagg]

But characters aren't chosen just out of popularity. Smash's newcomer rosters can be a lot of things, but they were never sheer popularity pools.

Also, I know people don't like to admit it, but Isabelle is a popular character. Not to mention she's a semi-clone, so you can't switch her with just any character.

Wasn't Simon and Ricter put in over Alucard due to popularity/fan demand?

Isabelle works because she was more or less a key secondary character that held more importance than the other villagers.

 

[osby]

Wasn't Simon and Ricter put in over Alucard due to popularity/fan demand?

No. I can't find the quote right now, but Sakurai prioritized protagonists over Alucard. Going by singular characters, Alucard was more popular iirc.

 

[weallfloatdownhere7]

Ok, fine. It’s not actual evidence; it’s just a theory. I’m just trying to be optimistic here, but It’s hard to do so when all the evidence that Banjo won’t be in far outweighs evidence that he will be in.

What “evidence” is there that he won’t be in though?

No. I can't find the quote right now, but Sakurai prioritized protagonists over Alucard. Going by singular characters, Alucard was more popular iirc.

No, Sakurai literally said he chose Simon/Richter because they were who the fans wanted despite Alucard being the more relevant character

 

[Deleted member]

No. I can't find the quote right now, but Sakurai prioritized protagonists over Alucard. Going by singular characters, Alucard was more popular iirc.

Alucard being the most popular request from the Castlevania franchise kind of makes sense, tbh.

He is a vampire, and Symphony of The Night is considered a classic and one of the best titles in the franchise and for some even the PS1 in general.

 

[Organization XIII]

But characters aren't chosen just out of popularity. Smash's newcomer rosters can be a lot of things, but they were never sheer popularity pools.

Also, I know people don't like to admit it, but Isabelle is a popular character. Not to mention she's a semi-clone, so you can't switch her with just any character.

I'm very aware and that's partly my point. People are content we got two popular characters but really we should expect more characters to be picked based on fan wants. But instead, we debate who of the popular characters deserved the minority of space Sakurai decides to throw our way as the rest of the roster is decided by other factors, instead of the other way around. Also, she wasn't that popular, maybe in AC but for a Smash character not really. People just accepted her because of Verge.

 

[Guynamednelson]

People just accepted her because of Verge.

I accepted her because the new AC mascot being in a game about Nintendo mascots was a round peg in a round hole. I was anti-Verg and still knew she was inevitable.

 

[Deleted member]

The Animal Crossing fandom is huge.
Wouldn't surprise me to imagine most people there wanting Isabelle for Ultimate, which already is an important demand.

Remember that Animal Crossing is a huge source of benefits for Nintendo.

 

[N3ON]

The original characters that got added in base this time made sense, it's not like any really stick out as strange choices. I don't know how logical swapping any out for Isaac would be. The characters that got in for being popular were more popular than he was. Or they were third-party, and thus in their own category. The reasons the other characters got in wouldn't be affected by the popularity of an unrelated character.

That said, if we had receive the typical amount of original newcomers as opposed to this restricted selection, I do think there would've been room for him.

Not really. Inklings were necessary because of Splatoon being massive. K. Rool and Ridley were two fan favorites who have been practically the most requested characters since pre-brawl (maybe even pre-Melee).

Isabelle was a rising all-star due to AC's success, we got a new 3rd Party lifted from the ballot (Castlevania) and a new Pokemon (which happens every game).

Where's the wiggle room to add Isaac?

K. Rool didn't climb to the top of the ranks since after Brawl. Beforehand more people were focused on Diddy.

I'm very aware and that's partly my point. People are content we got two popular characters but really we should expect more characters to be picked based on fan wants. But instead, we debate who of the popular characters deserved the minority of space Sakurai decides to throw our way as the rest of the roster is decided by other factors, instead of the other way around. Also, she wasn't that popular, maybe in AC but for a Smash character not really. People just accepted her because of Verge.

Despite a division between those who found her a feasible fighter and those who didn't, there were groups of people on about Isabelle long before Vergeben opened his mouth.

 

[SKX31]

Honestly I'd rather have nothing. At least with "nothing" there's still a possibility banjo could show up in a possible 2nd pass. A costume would just burn that bridge from the get go. Banjo has been getting nods and "consolation prizes" for years. At this point, where he has the highest chance at being playable than ever before, another "consolation prize" would be soul crushing for a lot of people. At some point when your once iconic character is being thrown around for easy nostalgia points and nothing else, you get fed up with consolation prizes.

I'm very much aware that the costume or spirit "consolation prizes" would be seen as soul crushing - but then reasons likely are much more muddy than anything fan-related. If I have to hazard a guess, it's due to risk. See Sakurai's questions on Ridley for example - it took him and his teams years to resolve that into a playable character. And it's not due to malice, it's due to the difficulties they had with fitting him into the game. "Too big!" may be a meme, but it has a basis in reality when one of the taunts is Ridley standing up for a moment.

I'm not saying that these risks are entirely logical - organizational culture's one hell of a drug, just like other forms of groupthink.

That said, Microsoft and Nintendo probably have questions with Banjo. Companies avoid risks like the plague, and that risk is "Financial failure and PR disaster" (Nuts and Bolts) or "Moderately successful, didn't match Kazooie / Tooie, either in sales numbers or critically*" (Yooka-Laylee). If they are indeed going with Banjo in Smash Microsoft probably wants assurance (not likely - guarentee) that they can leverage the Smash appearance into a Threeie. Not just a Threeie - a Threeie that matches or even surpasses Kazooie / Tooie. Now, the question becomes how to revive the duo in a genre that has since seen major changes (not just Mario, but stuff like Assassin's Creed), make sure it plays great and follows Kazooie / Tooie at least somewhat, and you need Threeie to sell like cupcakes. Otherwise Microsoft investors will poke Microsoft and ask "Why didn't you add X instead?"

The reason I'm mentioning investors is that they probably have a lot of influence in this DLC cycle because of Nintendo picking the characters - assuming it's all third party. Investors are one of the big reasons why companies play it safe 9 times out of 10. And not neccessarily out of hatred for fan favorites - investors might view Banjo as "a great choice, buuuuut not a financial guarantee".

Mega Man's and Simon's respective inclusions can serve as counter-examples to my arguments. That said, both of them could be seen as "PR damage control / repair" from Capcom's and Konami's eyes. When Mega Man was announced, Capcom had just suffered from the Inafune debacle, the PR fallout from Bad Boxart Mega Man's SFxT appearance and Mighty Number 9 taking over headlines (before that game crashed). Konami not only came off the heels of the Kojima / Metal Gear Survive disaster at the time, but also Castlevania whilted under uncertainty over where to push the series next. In that sense, Banjo's just been... inactive outside of Rare Replay recently.

So how do you revive Banjo? If I were Microsoft (and Phil's likely already looking for these. There's the chance he may not succeed, but he's probably trying given his comments) I'd go something like this:

1. Get a competent studio to helm the Threeie project. Difficult, but possible. Likewise, you the team to have a solid idea for Threeie. Do you stay the course of Kazooie / Tooie, or do you incorporate Mario / open world like Assassin's Creed elements into Threeie? Also, a Threeie will likely have to have its own unique, engaging stuff to help it stick out.

2. Make sure that the budget's big and attention getting. Not just to get the Banjo fandom's attention, but also the industry at large and the general public. A Threeie will be a big game because it likely follows Kazooie / Tooie - a big budget's neccessary.

3. Position Banjo-Threeie with a big marketing push. After all, it will be seen as "the BIG return", and not only to reassure investors, but also to project confidence with consumers that Banjo-Threeie will be a great game.

Those reasons are why I've been harping on about it being a tough ask. It's possible, but Phil and Microsoft at large needs to be sure before they go with it. Similar questions are probably also what hampered K. Rool for so long - Nintendo of Japan were AFAIK really surprised to learn about his popularity.

*Kazooie sold 3.5 million, Tooie 1.5 million

 

[TheZoologist]

There's absolutely no guarantee Banjo & Kazooie will be part of the Fighter Pass because there is no way anyone can predict who they will choose to be in it. I mean, it's been months since Joker was announced and other than a character model, we have no idea what content he'll bring along with him, other than a stage and some music. And all the other fighters are being kept hush hush. Hopefully because they'll be revolutionary or highly-requested inclusions into Smash and not just promotional characters to promote upcoming games. I'm keeping skeptical on the whole situation, as promising as it is to see Microsoft ports of games like Ori and Cuphead and rumors of a Rare Replay on the Switch, which honestly I'm hoping more for than anything at this point just to have the bear and bird back on a Nintendo console. If that ends up granting them a slot in Smash, amazing. If not, I'd rather have something than nothing. I've just been burned one time too many to get my hopes up.

 

[TheAnvil]

You literally just mentioned all three characters capable of being changed out for popular characters. Heck, there was even PP as he was most likely planned for base.

3 ballot characters with higher priority than Isaac, 2 modern all-stars through absolute necessity and the token Pokemon rep.

And Piranha was planned as the surprise character. Sorry but there really was no wiggle room to slide Isaac on short of there being another fighter.

No. I can't find the quote right now, but Sakurai prioritized protagonists over Alucard. Going by singular characters, Alucard was more popular iirc.

No, Sakurai said he thought fans would want the Belmonts even though Alucard was more well known due to being in more recent games.

 

[viras]

There's absolutely no guarantee Banjo & Kazooie will be part of the Fighter Pass because there is no way anyone can predict who they will choose to be in it. I mean, it's been months since Joker was announced and other than a character model, we have no idea what content he'll bring along with him, other than a stage and some music. And all the other fighters are being kept hush hush. Hopefully because they'll be revolutionary or highly-requested inclusions into Smash and not just promotional characters to promote upcoming games. I'm keeping skeptical on the whole situation, as promising as it is to see Microsoft ports of games like Ori and Cuphead and rumors of a Rare Replay on the Switch, which honestly I'm hoping more for than anything at this point just to have the bear and bird back on a Nintendo console. If that ends up granting them a slot in Smash, amazing. If not, I'd rather have something than nothing. I've just been burned one time too many to get my hopes up.

Exactly. People saying they're guaranteed can be kinda slowness, we just gotta wait it out even tho I do want banjo, idk if it'll happen.

 

[MissingGlitch]

On a much more lighter note. Found something to share

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Organization XIII]

3 ballot characters with higher priority than Isaac, 2 modern all-stars through absolute necessity and the token Pokemon rep.

And Piranha was planned as the surprise character. Sorry but there really was no wiggle room to slide Isaac on short of there being another fighter

Ok I don't think you understand the point here. We don't have to accept there needs to be a token Pokemon. Inceniroar absolutely could have been left out for other characters. That's wiggle room. PP may be a surprise character but those can be a focus after popular characters are addressed. That's wiggle room. There were two ballot fighters and there were much more popular third party requests than Castlevania at the time so it wasn't quite so ballot for them so I'm not going to count it when there's more pointing to other factors mattering for them more. That's wiggle room. More for popular third parties then Isaac specifically but still wiggle room. What you're saying isn't an example of there being no space but examples of how we justify accepting why non popular characters get into the roster. Which having non popular characters is fine but there was indeed plenty of time for more of the community wanted to see.

Despite a division between those who found her a feasible fighter and those who didn't, there were groups of people on about Isabelle long before Vergeben opened his mouth.

When I said that she was accepted because of Verge I meant that because of his leak most people stopped thinking about whether she would or wouldn't but figured she was an inevitably. There wasn't much excitement for her just a lot of "yeah Isabelle will be an echo which makes sense" and then keep on going. Of course there were people who thought she was in before Verge but his leak regarding Isabelle was what confirmed her to most people.

 

[ChinaCat]

if we got a banjo mii costume, I wouldnt feel slighted or victimized (plz get a grip on reality if this is you), but i would be pretty disapointed. It seems very possible he could be a main fighter (which is something i've wanted since 64) for the first time ever. If he gets a mii costume it will be very similar to him not getting in at all for me. Id legit be happier with music tracks than a mii. Mii's are lame. It is a nice bone to throw the fans though, but for my personal play it would mean pretty much nothing. If banjo actually gets in, i plan to main him.

4 years from now when i look back on the mii costume's inclusion i'll still feel the same i would on release. "cool i guess?, not gonna use it tho". so yeah i'm not in the i'd rather have nothing camp, but honestly getting nothing would have the same effect on my gaming experience so its a wash...

 

[MissingGlitch]

Source Gaming is running a poll. Interesting how many different ways people spell Banjo & Kazooie yet each spelling is popular enough to take 3 slots in the top 10.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Ok I don't think you understand the point here. We don't have to accept there needs to be a token Pokemon. Inceniroar absolutely could have been left out for other characters. That's wiggle room. PP may be a surprise character but those can be a focus after popular characters are addressed. That's wiggle room. There were two ballot fighters and there were much more popular third party requests than Castlevania at the time so it wasn't quite so ballot for them so I'm not going to count it when there's more pointing to other factors mattering for them more. That's wiggle room. More for popular third parties then Isaac specifically but still wiggle room. What you're saying isn't an example of there being no space but examples of how we justify accepting why non popular characters get into the roster. Which having non popular characters is fine but there was indeed plenty of time for more of the community wanted to see.

When I said that she was accepted because of Verge I meant that because of his leak most people stopped thinking about whether she would or wouldn't but figured she was an inevitably. There wasn't much excitement for her just a lot of "yeah Isabelle will be an echo which makes sense" and then keep on going. Of course there were people who thought she was in before Verge but his leak regarding Isabelle was what confirmed her to most people.

Pokemon is an absolute juggernaut and the biggest franchise overall represented in Smash, So I doubt Nintendo would pass up on the oppurtunity to promote the 7th generation, Which is likely why every Smash game has gotten a new pokemon from the current generation at the time and wouldn't be surprised or mind if we got an 8th Generation rep for Pokemon Sword and Shield as DLC.

Pokemon's movesets also translate very well into Smash which make them a lot of fun to play as and they have cool and very appealing designs.

 

[LogFrog]

April cannot come soon enough. I mean, there’s gotta be a new reveal or something for when they release 3.0, right?

 

[Organization XIII]

Pokemon is an absolute juggernaut and the biggest franchise overall represented in Smash, So I doubt Nintendo would pass up on the oppurtunity to promote the 7th generation, Which is likely why every Smash game has gotten a new pokemon from the current generation at the time and wouldn't be surprised or mind if we got an 8th Generation rep for Pokemon Sword and Shield as DLC.

Pokemon's movesets also translate very well into Smash which make them a lot of fun to play as and they have cool and very appealing designs.

That's true. Doesn't change what I said in the slightest. In fact they have the Pokeball item so they can represent as many Pokemon as they want without making them playable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Incineroar wasn't really added to promote anything either. It's a juggernaut franchise where any Pokemon can be chosen and easily will have fans. It's filled with a load of potential. It being big is why it gets characters. But it also has been getting less since Brawl as well due to how massive the main roster is. Incineroar and Decidueye were the final ones on the table overall(that we know of, according to Sakurai). He went with a wrestler archtype instead of a projectile-focused archtype(which can presumably be called an archer one, though he doesn't literally say that).

Being from the latest game isn't a matter of promoting much at all. Unless the latest game is literally coming out as is. Like with Corrin as Fates just went to the US. Same thing with Greninja. They were not chosen to promote any Pokemon game at all. it's the opposite. Pokemon characters are immensely popular and at best being used to make Smash more promotable if any kind of promotion is going on. That said, Pokemon isn't a token series to get a character. It's just easy to add one since there's always potential. It was never a "necessary" addition. Doesn't mean it's a bad idea either.

Isabelle was easily expected by many. Some to be an echo. She was always a very likely character due to her immense usage and promotion in other games(though I don't think she should've been a costume in Monster Hunter. She's not a violent character, and she sticks out like a sore thumb there. Mario Kart is very fitting with its cartoony nature, way more on her track. Even Smash alone fits the tone better for her). Being AC's second overall mascot(secondary was a misleading word. She's just the second mascot to come up in franchise history. She's the current mascot) alone helped too, but the constant promotion was even bigger. Though her greatest advantage was using Villager as a base. Without that, she'd have nothing to go on to get her to work as a character. Anything else would take too long to feasibly make. Thankfully she could be a semi-clone.

A confusion about his point with Castlevania; he pretty much was clear Alucard is an immensely popular choice. He however wanted to go with the two protagonists instead, which both would cater to the East and West. It should be noted he's also a fan of the first set of Castlevania games, so that apparently affected it a bit(so a bit of bias. And that's not a bad thing. Simon/Richter or Alucard would both be excellent choices either way. They're immensely important characters to Castlevania respectively).

But yeah, there was no real wiggle room for extra characters. PP seems to have been planned for base. With Golden Sun being inactive as a franchise, it simply took lower priority over the active franchises that all got characters(which is all 12 newcomers currently are). DLC may be similar, but it's not like we have a reason to believe 3rd parties must be from a franchise that is currently relevant either. That's just a pattern, not a rule. 1st and 2nd parties adhere more often to relevancy(franchise-wise), but not always. Lucas being back before Wolf in 4 can be seen partially as that. Let's remember that Star Fox Zero was already known, though the fact it got delayed might've been part of it. Lucas also was presumably easier to remake from Ness than Wolf was from Fox, so that could've also been why. Mother was never getting anything any time soon(whereas Star Fox somewhat was, even with the delay), so obviously relevancy did not affect why Lucas was DLC. In fact, it could be why Lucas was cut from the main game, same with Wolf too. Bad timing affected one guy. The one thing we did know is he wanted a "Brawl veteran" in 4's DLC pool. Lucas won out, for an unclear reason.

 

[hinode]

By my count there are ~42K registered users on Smashboards, compared to 12 million copies and counting of Smash Ultimate sold. There was absolutely no chance that Sakurai or Nintendo was going to cater exclusively to the tastes of this community when deciding the roster, and quite frankly it would be objectively stupid for them to do so. Characters who cater to a broader audience like Isabelle are always going to get into Smash rosters.

If you aren't willing to accept this reality, I would advise you to get into the Smash modding scene, because that is the only way that you are ever going to get your entire dream roster.

 

[weallfloatdownhere7]

By my count there are ~42K registered users on Smashboards, compared to 12 million copies and counting of Smash Ultimate sold. There was absolutely no chance that Sakurai or Nintendo was going to cater exclusively to the tastes of this community when deciding the roster, and quite frankly it would be objectively stupid for them to do so. Characters who cater to a broader audience like Isabelle are always going to get into Smash rosters.

If you aren't willing to accept this reality, I would advise you to get into the Smash modding scene, because that is the only way that you are ever going to get your entire dream roster.

It’s also a bit ignorant to suggest that people on Smashboards are the only people who want characters like Banjo. I’ve been a hardcore Banjo supporter for years and I only recently joined Smash boards not long ago. Not every Nintendo or Smash Bros fan is a part of these online forums

 

[MissingGlitch]

Can we all agree though that Primarina got her rightful place stolen in smash by Incineroar? A wrestler cat and Pit cosplaying as an owl? Boring. The real action is with the cutie circus seal that can sing.

 

[osby]

That's true. Doesn't change what I said in the slightest. In fact they have the Pokeball item so they can represent as many Pokemon as they want without making them playable.

They have Spirits, so they can represent every video game character without making them playable.

 

[Mr. Stagg]

It’s also a bit ignorant to suggest that people on Smashboards are the only people who want characters like Banjo. I’ve been a hardcore Banjo supporter for years and I only recently joined Smash boards not long ago. Not every Nintendo or Smash Bros fan is a part of these online forums

It would be interesting to get a wider sample size than just a few thousand. Even then, some of the unofficial polls paint a decent picture that show how requested Banjo-Kazooie are. It's not a great example mind you. It's just a nice thing to think about.

 

[osby]

By my count there are ~42K registered users on Smashboards, compared to 12 million copies and counting of Smash Ultimate sold. There was absolutely no chance that Sakurai or Nintendo was going to cater exclusively to the tastes of this community when deciding the roster, and quite frankly it would be objectively stupid for them to do so. Characters who cater to a broader audience like Isabelle are always going to get into Smash rosters.

If you aren't willing to accept this reality, I would advise you to get into the Smash modding scene, because that is the only way that you are ever going to get your entire dream roster.

Nice points but I think you're being a bit harsh.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It would be interesting to get a wider sample size than just a few thousand. Even then, some of the unofficial polls paint a decent picture that show how requested Banjo-Kazooie are. It's not a great example mind you. It's just a nice thing to think about.

Yeah, there's a reasonable amount of fan polls out there to show Banjo & Kazooie definitely has a lot of fan demand from various fans(Smash fanbase alone or otherwise). It's enough evidence for that. It's not hard enough evidence to reflect the literal Poll results by any means, but it's still useful nonetheless.

Using SB in itself just leads to a smash bubble effect. Looking around everywhere can paint a way better and more accurate picture.

 

[hinode]

Past a certain point, the number of responders to a poll is less important than how those responders are chosen. The general principal used for most political polls is that if you can randomly select a truly even cross-section of the voting base, the results you get will be pretty accurate to the entire electorate even with only a small sample of voters who are actually polled. On the other hand, if a specific demographic is disproportionately polled (say, the rich), than that will make the poll less accurate.

It's probably not feasible to conduct a truly random sampling of the Smash Ballot voting base since no one outside of Nintendo really knows how the demographics broke down. Grabbing data from more than a single community helps, but the results of any community-wide poll still need to be taken with a grain of salt. Just because Castlevania didn't rank quite as high as, let's say, Shovel Knight or Shantae on many fan ballots does NOT guarantee that it performed worse than them on the actual ballot. When Sakurai says Simon Belmont did well on the Ballot, it would be a mistake to dismiss him by pointing to a fan poll, since he actually knows what the results were and none of us do.

To get back on topic, I personally suspect Banjo's performance in the general ballot probably correlate better with fan ballots than most of the fan-favorites discussed on places like here and reddit that aren't in the game yet, but I don't have any evidence to state that as a hard fact. It's just a hunch of mine, based on sales numbers and my observations of the Switch owning/Smash playing audience outside of the Smash speculation bubble.

 

[Opossum]

Nintendo would have nothing if it weren’t for the fans, and the majority of Smash fans have been very vocal about wanting Banjo since the Melee days.

This is pretty pedantic, fair warning, but I felt it was worth saying.

This is far closer to a plurality than a majority. Plurality implies that something is the most popular, in this context, but majority would imply that Banjo is more wanted than every other character combined.