Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #13 - Pikachu

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan


Alright, on to the next discussion. This week is the Pikachu Matchup. Pikachu has evolved quite a bit since, the last discussion and it's time to see how our character fairs against him.

It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.

Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-


Note: This Matchup has been discussed in the past. If you wish to pull content from previous discussions that are still relevant in the current Metagame, then feel free to do so. This includes posts that are both yours and not yours.

This thread will be posted in the Pikachu boards to encourage more discussion as well.​
 

~Radiance~

Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
2,958
Location
Hoenn, Roaming
NNID
LatiasLulu
3DS FC
4098-3185-5390
Welllllllll from what I can tell you heres where pika has issues v diddy

Your guys aerial game is far superior to ours.
you have farrrrrrr better range on the ground
you have better things that you can do with bananas and our glide toss is not very good (in most pikas opinions)

heres where we get you

our aerial strings are better than yours and we can easily punish a tilt/smash on shield with uair -> lots of stuff
Our grab game has more mixups and such whereas your grabs are more for killing
We have a spamable projectile
our recovery is better and our thunder can gimp yours.

Personally, I think that our glide toss is worth mentioning as it goes very far it just has a lot of cooldown. If we catch you by surprise it can lead into grab mindgames or charged smashes if you anticipate and try to spot dodge the banana. Diddy's dair doesn't come out fast enough to beat our uair strings at lower percents, so be careful and try as hard as you can to DI that first Uair or else you will probably get naired afterwards. Another mixup some pikas like to do at low/high percents is either sh or fh uair to ff charge fsmash/usmash. Be careful of this, because if you are expecting a nair and attempt to airdodge and we read it you could be in for a fully charged smash and that is not fun

Tbh, we have to play very smart in this MU though because your aerials keep us grounded at close range and your bananas make it hard for us to approach on the ground, so pikas will be looking for hard reads on your dodges, rolls, and patterns to try and get a small string in there to rack up damage. Jolts are probably what a pika will do at the start, but if you can learn the timing and ps them we have a lot of airtime cooldown on our FH jolts so you can easily run in and punish if the pika is camping poorly.

All in all, you are better in this mu than we are. We cant go in the air as easily, and are forced to rely on reads and dtilt, which has the most range of any of our aerials and has a chance to trip and lead into grabs that we really need. Play safe, ps jolts, dont let us get too close. 60-40 diddys favor.

good stages to take pika to are brinstar, fd, and sv. most pikas love sv and fd, but I think you guys are better there than we are, tho again if you can get us in the air or shark us we cant be as effective so BF may not be such a bad choice. As a rule of thumb brinstar is the go to ban against almost everyone, but if we ban FD instead due to the mu then take us to brin if that stage is good for you guys, but again most pikas auto ban brinstar its truly terrible for our psyche and our hygiene. pikas don't like heat, it makes our fur all frizzy and stuff and no sweat glands means a lot of panting

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask

 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,178
Location
Rainbow Cruise
-1 for pika.

I'm not sure how you think our aerial game is better than yours. Overall it might be, but in this MU specifically Pikachu is so small it's pretty hard to actually hit with our fair/bair.

Pikachu really doesn't have that much range so pikas will like to thunder jolt camp until our shield is low and then go in at the same time as an aerial TJ and try to force something, the best thing is really to keep your shield from getting low because Pika has a lot of stuff that can shield poke easily. Punish pika's stuff on shield with bananas and shield grabs etc. Dtilt is really good in this MU, it covers a lot of pika's approaches and outspaces most of pika's stuff. Pika is small so he is hard to latch onto with side-b, if you miss with the grab you usually want to go with the jump away option because pikachu can punish it with a grab and get us into a really bad position if we don't watch it.
 

RiverDB

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
155
NNID
RiVerDB
In this matchup, i feel as Diddy is better then Pika at everything, but at most part only by a little bit.
The Pikachu i often play has taught himself that he can't win by playing offensive, so all of my knowledge comes from playing a campy Pika.

Diddy's naners are(as always) the key to succes, and vs Pika that isn't much different. Pikachu has some good setups from his throws at low%, so you might want to look out for that. Besides that Diddy outranges Pika and has more damage racking ablility on the ground.

I disagree with Alto Mare when he says we have better aerial strings, since Pika has some good strings starting with Fair/Uair into other stuff. Diddy does however outrange Pika easely with Fairs/Bairs, and i believe Fair does more damage then Pika's Nair.

The first thing, what P-1 already mentioned, is that Pika will Tjolt camp, A LOT, so you will have to know what beats it. Usually i will just PS it, but if your shield is already low(what shouldn't happen since it's horrible for you, again P-1 explained this) then jumping over or Ftilting the Tjolts are also options. Something i sometimes do, is if the Pika is to close to me and still tries to tjolt(most of the time out of SH/FH) i will punish the cooldown with a Fair. Another little thing that's nice to know is that when Pika uses his QA, his hurtboxes extend pretty far, so throwing out random moves when they try to approach with it(which shouldn't happen often) usually works decent.

Also, Pikachu is not great at is killing, Their main killmoves are Usmash, Nair and Fsmash as far as i know, and it is not hard to avoid those for some time, but Pika is pretty decent at gimping, so that's something to look out for. It's also important to SDI the Dsmash and Utilt->Thunder which some Pikachus like.

For stages, i'd think you just have to go with whatever stage you feel most comfortable with, since Diddy and Pika both excel at almost the same stages. In my case i would go for SV/FD/BF for starter and CS/Brinstar as CP, depending on the stagelist(Europe doesn't allow brinstar D: )

I'm not sure if this is a +1 or +2, but for now i'll say +1
 

GOofyGV

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2011
Messages
1,108
Location
Netherlands
I want to add that pika's slide animation is really long
and I think dtilt cancel's his tjolt as well(not sure about it)
 

~Radiance~

Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
2,958
Location
Hoenn, Roaming
NNID
LatiasLulu
3DS FC
4098-3185-5390
i was just mentioning your aerial game being better in terms of priority and range. pika really cant do much except get under you and uair since spaced fair/dair will get beat by anything diddy can do in the air. sure if we are under you thats the bad position you get in, but overall your aerial game is much better

imo best thing you can learn to do is ps jolts. the timing can take a bit to get down since they hop but itll be well worth your time to learn it since pika has lots of lag on the jolt
 

Nicholas1024

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
Um, T-jolts alone should not be locking down anyone. Shield and punish them, (or air dodge if you have to), there's way too much lag for them to be safe at close range.

One thing I'd like to note, Pikachu has two glide tosses (one relatively short range, the other rather long), so that's something to watch out for.
 

~Radiance~

Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
2,958
Location
Hoenn, Roaming
NNID
LatiasLulu
3DS FC
4098-3185-5390
pika vs olimar is more impossible than this lol.

its not even due to your guys range being better, tho outranging pika is not too hard albeit we do have dtilt which is pretty good.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
There's one position in the stage we don't like as diddys, it's under the opposite edge of a platform : pika will tjolt over the platform which will cut our jump options for a second, and then the tjolt will follow the pit and if we're in that spot, we are pretty much forced to shield, which gives pika a good approach option. In any spot exept this one, tjolts should not bother you too much, just jab them or PS them and you're okay.

Does diddy get screwed on the ledge against good pikas ? The ones I play lack a bit of situation awareness so I usually get back onstage with little trouble, but this is usually one of diddy's weaknesses.

Question, has anybody got a list of what we can do against Pika's CG/grab followups ? Like, the % it stops, the different followups he can attempt, etc... ?
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
-1 for Pika, leaning closer to 0 though because I'm ESAM.

Diddy will mainly be getting damage for Pikachu getting aggressive. Everything on shield is punishable by banana toss and Pikachu doesn't have the range to really make anything safe (besides maybe a cross-up, but then you can just glide-toss and hit us)

Other than that, neither character really has anything amazing in this MU. Pikachu can still camp, as can diddy. Diddy is really difficult to gimp for Pikachu without SDing, and we can't really edgehog you realistically. We have our grab combos, you have your banana combos. Something to note is that Pikachu's item throws besides Down are pretty ***. You know a Pikachu is bad at the MU if they are throwing their banana in any direction other than down (besides a forward glide toss f-throw). Z-dropping is the main way that Pikachu should be using bananas in actuality since it doesn't make you commit to anything and we can still do anything...
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
I throw my bananas how I want :(

Also at the conversation from the page before, I dont really think range is an issue unless diddy has a banana. It becomes a battle of angles that pika wins slightly imo, but that completely changes when bananas are in play.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,178
Location
Rainbow Cruise
Banana toss OoS is pretty overrated IMO. Our fastest option OoS with a banana is a dthrow (frame 6) and dthrow isn't even usually our desired throw usually it's forward or back which are longer. And if we want to glidetoss it then it's +1 frame. Our shield grab is even or better frame data wise (frame 6). The reason why banana toss OoS is so good is because the range in proportion to the frame data is very good AND it sets up for amazing punishes.

Basically, in an up close game Diddy has a better chance of getting the punish without a banana rather than with.
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
Pikachu's **** is pretty bad on block....bananas give you bigger punishes so that is why they are preferred.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,178
Location
Rainbow Cruise
Obviously we prefer a banana, I was just saying that in response to cassio saying "range isn't an issue unless we have a banana" when, since Pikachu's approach moves don't have much range on them, they're still just as ineffective if we don't have a banana in our hands since we can just shield grab which is better frame data wise than our banana throws
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
Diddy's. I even said diddy in that sentence...it was mostly in response to FZs posts.

The real problem Diddy gives Pika is that when hes in control of his bananas he cuts off pikas options, and thats supposed to be where pika's biggest strength lies (at least imo). Its a consistent issue in our other two commonly agreed upon difficult MUs.
 

~Radiance~

Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
2,958
Location
Hoenn, Roaming
NNID
LatiasLulu
3DS FC
4098-3185-5390
I still think diddy has better aerials even in terms of range. Fair isnt gonna be doing ****, though our uar is pretty good which makes sense as you said TAG about a battle of angles, tho I dont think angles alone makes his aerials on par with ours, his are still better. All that said, when he has a banana its tough for us to do much, plus pikas trip animation is so god awful

back to being away from swf for forever again
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
If we were doing things based on range Pikachu would lose half the MUs in this game. Our aerials are, in general, better. Pikachu normally has good air AND ground control, but Diddy steals the ground control away so we are pretty much forced to either camp or fight in the air. Being limited in options always puts you at a disadvantage.

Pika's trip animation is AT MOST 1-2 frames longer than others, it really doesn't matter.
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
On top of that its not just about aerial vs aerial. Pika has a superb anti-air ground game between angled ftilt, utilt, (stutter) fsmash, in addition to his short hop aerials that make hitting at or even crossing up pikachu tough. But bananas are very good getting around that since we cant just challenge bananas with a hitbox.

The MU might not be that bad if pika could do more with bananas. It seems like hes just about as good as diddy at aquiring bananas, but once he has one its kinda like 'wtf can I do with this?' Like ESAM said theres limited good things we can do while diddy has a full assortment of monkey tricks.
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
However, as high level play progresses, little tricks that diddy have become more meaningless and both characters abuse the options that work/are safe. I feel like at super high-level play it is more about player vs player than character vs character (ICs are so good vs Diddy though, so you won't really see me go him against Gnes/ADHD)
 

~Radiance~

Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
2,958
Location
Hoenn, Roaming
NNID
LatiasLulu
3DS FC
4098-3185-5390
However, as high level play progresses, little tricks that diddy have become more meaningless and both characters abuse the options that work/are safe.
I feel this matters a lot. Its why we see snake taking a back seat to diddy now due to his tricks being very scripted and easy to predict, wheras we have characters with more reliable combos that arent based on a ton of gimmicks doing better and placing higher.

That being said, I agree that bananas are really the breaking point for us in this mu. without the bananas I feel pika has more he can do to diddy simply because our strings are reliable and we have ways to get in, the bananas just make it hell
 

Ingulit

Ing-u-lit
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
1,828
Location
Huntsville/Tuscaloosa, AL
To extend what someone else said about Pikachu's QA extending his hurtbox, one option to inturrupt Pika's recovery or QACing (if they do that) is to use N-Air somewhere along the path they'll try to take. While there are other options that would be better damage-wise or for setting up combos, this one is probably the easiest.

If for some reason this ever happens, what do we do if we get hit by a Thunder at low %? Namely, how do we avoid a second (killing) follow-up Thunder? Diddy's horizontal aerial move speed is god awful, and for the life of me I personally can't seem to avoid a second hit if the Pika follows my DI.

How should we be angling our shield against Pika's plethora of multi-hit moves so we don't get shield poked? Like, we can angle our shield up against MK's Tornado, but what about Pikachu?

:phone:
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
You shouldn't ever be trying to edgeguard Pikachu unless you are just throwing bananas out there. The risk reward isn't worth it.

There is a way to DI pikachu's thunder to be hit away, but unfortunately I don't know how to do it consistently since I don't actually play against one...

Angling shields against Pikachu is tricky because it isn't liek MK who will poke at the top. We come down throughout or moves and our hitboxes are kinda strange (At least on Bair). I would say tilt it up and then follow our height with your shield (So tilt it more down as we start falling)
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
Tossing out aerials really should rarely work, but no one botheres to learn QA's naunces so it usually does... However aerial bananas (especially his slow toss down b) are very good and peanuts are kinda sorta sometimes good.
 

Dj PhaTz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
62
Location
Houston, TX
I feel like this MU is +1 diddy or possibly even. What wins this MU for diddy is punishing landings...i sorta feel like this MU is similar to the peach MU in the respect that pikachu would MAYBE wanna fight more from the air (jumping thunders jolts, uair, fair to grab, rejump quick attacks etc. any pikachu mains correct me if thats wrong about that) But i feel diddy kongs success comes from his ability to shut down the ground options for mostly ANY character not to mention he's not half bad in the air...pikachu is a little better in the air (against diddy at least, im not sure about against other characters) because like someone else was saying pika IS a small character (thats part of what makes the olimar MU strange as well imo) Anyway, the thing that makes me feel like its even though is that...theres virtually nothing other characters cant do with diddy's bananas that diddy cant do. like...everything diddy kong can do with his bananas is not unique to diddy kong (virtually at least, i understand that diddy kong may have the best glide toss to suit his form of play...his aerials pick up bananas from the ground etc etc) but virtually...the only thing thats unique to him is the ability to pull them out. so if pika can successfully learn to use bananas as effiecently as diddy kong the MU can be even because pika's utilt clashes with all of diddys smashes from what i know, his usmash is deadly...he has good grab setups...he can camp jolts all day (and even though like someone said earlier...jolts SHOULDNT shut a diddy kong down....or any character down for that matter. it still can fluster someone and throw out their thinking time so they dont punish successfully or as effectively) I say +1 diddy or even
 

Dj PhaTz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
62
Location
Houston, TX
To touch on what i was saying about nothing concerning bananas being unique to diddy only...what i mean by that is like...most characters are suited to fight diddy kong like its a ditto. Instant throwing bananas back at diddy and shielding to the ground to pick up bananas will literally save some MUs...and i honesty believe that. How good other characters glide toss is effects this theory a little bit but im willing to bet if more people stop being afraid of bananas and learn to control them like a diddy would they would be better against him. Peach and falco i think are the best examples...both MUs are even according to this thread...but think about if they controled diddys bananas...they would win the MU, falco especially since his reflector already sorta beats bananas. Diddy's greatest tool can be his greatest weakness if people would utilize it properly in my honest opinion

:phone:
 

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan
I messaged Sails about ending this MU discussion so we can move on. Seems the consensus lies at +1 Diddy.
 
Top Bottom