Balance tweaks you'd like to see in the patch

[Alex Night]

Seriously? You've got to be ****ting me. You are not actually *****ing about Villager's pocket range. Gravitational Pull's range is bigger than that. I never wanted this argument to happen. You speak your mind and suddenly every starts riding you like a rodeo show. That's the people for you, I guess.

As much as I don't like Diddy, Villager's Pocket is a bit on the ridiculous side. In fact, the Pocket is more central to his entire playstyle than people believe. It has invincibility frames when trying to Pocket the air which stops when he shakes his head, can B-Reverse it, can trap certain items for 30 seconds, pull it out, and put it back in for another 30 seconds. He traps ROB's Gyro, Wario's Bike, and Bowser Jr.'s MechaKoopa as far as my knowledge goes about it. It also makes Melee Marth's grab range look like a joke. He can grab Link's Arrow while it is piercing through him and take no damage for it. I'm not saying it should have changes, but it is on the point of ridiculousness a little bit. In short summary, it's a recovery mix-up and item trapper that makes the projectile stronger and stronger... Just saying.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

All I really want is for them to buff Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, and maybe Little Mac (make him like he was in the beginning). WFT really really needs more range and larger hitboxes on her/his moves. With Palutena, I'd really appreciate it if they lessened the ending lag on all of her moves.

Edit: Actually, this might be asking a bit much, but I'd like if the Speed Art on Shulk's Monado not only increases his movement speed, but his attack speed too.

 

[X1Type1]

The fact that one character revolves around one combo speaks volumes about how imbalanced said character is. You obviously don't know the difference between a good character and a broken one. Nobody would use Diddy and Sonic if they weren't so braindead and imbalanced. In a game of 52 characters, nobody is going to waste time buffing 49 characters just because 3 of them happen to be better. They're going to use common sense and cut those 3 down to level of other 49.
But that wouldn't do anything. Then people would jusy complain about Zero suit and Pikachu. There is going to be a tier list no matter what. Every game has a best character and almost half the cast has dthrow uair or something similar. I mean look at Luigi. Dthrow fair nair utilt reset grab dthrow fair uair usmash oh look you're at 60% and you can't get out of it. I do it all the time it's easy as hell. Diddy needs like 4-6 dthrow up airs to match that and you can DI Diddys hoo hah pretty easily. Plus everyone online sucks woth Diddy they can barely get the grabs let alone the follow ups. It's only ZeRo, Jtails, and a few other top players and veterans that can do it right. As such the combo clearly require some skill albeit basic for competitive standards. Reguardless the nerf is likely anyway. I just hate constant patches. It's what ruined so many games like Gears of War 2 and 3, Soul Caliber V, Battle Royale, and many others.

 

[X1Type1]

The fact that one character revolves around one combo speaks volumes about how imbalanced said character is. You obviously don't know the difference between a good character and a broken one. Nobody would use Diddy and Sonic if they weren't so braindead and imbalanced. In a game of 52 characters, nobody is going to waste time buffing 49 characters just because 3 of them happen to be better. They're going to use common sense and cut those 3 down to level of the other 49. I'm sorry you're too blind to see the very obvious solution to a simple problem.

But that wouldn't do anything. Then people would jusy complain about Zero suit and Pikachu. There is going to be a tier list no matter what. Every game has a best character and almost half the cast has dthrow uair or something similar. I mean look at Luigi. Dthrow fair nair utilt reset grab dthrow fair uair usmash oh look you're at 60% and you can't get out of it. I do it all the time it's easy as hell. Diddy needs like 4-6 dthrow up airs to match that and you can DI Diddys hoo hah pretty easily. Plus everyone online sucks woth Diddy they can barely get the grabs let alone the follow ups. It's only ZeRo, Jtails, and a few other top players and veterans that can do it right. As such the combo clearly require some skill albeit basic for competitive standards. Reguardless the nerf is likely anyway. I just hate constant patches. It's what ruined so many games like Gears of War 2 and 3, Soul Caliber V, Battle Royale, and many others.

 

[MarioMeteor]

As much as I don't like Diddy, Villager's Pocket is a bit on the ridiculous side. In fact, the Pocket is more central to his entire playstyle than people believe. It has invincibility frames when trying to Pocket the air which stops when he shakes his head, can B-Reverse it, can trap certain items for 30 seconds, pull it out, and put it back in for another 30 seconds. He traps ROB's Gyro, Wario's Bike, and Bowser Jr.'s MechaKoopa as far as my knowledge goes about it. It also makes Melee Marth's grab range look like a joke. He can grab Link's Arrow while it is piercing through him and take no damage for it. I'm not saying it should have changes, but it is on the point of ridiculousness a little bit. In short summary, it's a recovery mix-up and item trapper that makes the projectile stronger and stronger... Just saying.

I can't believe this conversation is actually happening.

 

[Alex Night]

I can't believe this conversation is actually happening.

Dude, I'm just saying. It's not like I'm saying it should be changed even though he should clearly take damage when an Arrow pierces through him. You gotta understand that some things are a bit silly in this game like how Sing can stop Charizard's Flare Blitz right in his tracks along with a grounded banana. Of course Diddy and Sheik are a bit silly; their burst movement options are so good especially Sheik's since she can just throw one out with little risk to herself. It's not just them; everybody can and will be subject to some scrutiny if there is something that has bad design or shouldn't work like that like Lucario's everything about his Aura.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Dude, I'm just saying. It's not like I'm saying it should be changed even though he should clearly take damage when an Arrow pierces through him. You gotta understand that some things are a bit silly in this game like how Sing can stop Charizard's Flare Blitz right in his tracks along with a grounded banana. Of course Diddy and Sheik are a bit silly; their burst movement options are so good especially Sheik's since she can just throw one out with little risk to herself. It's not just them; everybody can and will be subject to some scrutiny if there is something that has bad design or shouldn't work like that like Lucario's everything about his Aura.

Wait, Sing beats Flare Blitz? Oh my God, that's amazing. That'll show those Flare Blitz spammers. Anyway, Lucario's Aura is fine. Now Rage + Aura, that **** is ridiculous, this coming from a Lucario main. Matter of fact, Rage in general is a stupid mechanic. I really wouldn't mind seeing it go.

 

[Alex Night]

Wait, Sing beats Flare Blitz? Oh my God, that's amazing. That'll show those Flare Blitz spammers. Anyway, Lucario's Aura is fine. Now Rage + Aura, that **** is ridiculous, this coming from a Lucario main. Matter of fact, Rage in general is a stupid mechanic. I really wouldn't mind seeing it go.

No that's not amazing. That just shows how Flare Blitz is so flawed in many ways which hurts Charizard players like myself. It's also not like Flare Blitz is hard to beat if you know what you're doing. It's only really good when reading rolls or whiffed punishes. Other than that, you just shield it and get a free punish for millions of years or you can be like Sheik and just UpSmash it to beat it. It's just so freaking stupid that a powerful move gets beaten by a rarely useful move like Sing.

Lucario's Aura is not fine because it makes no sense from a game design standpoint along with Pokemon lore. Lucario's Aura doesn't work like that in Pokemon and it's like he is working with X-Factor which has no place in Smash Bros. That's why I much prefer the PM Lucario because that requires a lot of skill to master him unlike Lucario where he gets more range and power the more he is damaged. Granted that it will never change because Sakurai wouldn't be that crazy to change Lucario's style as the game is out already, but it definitely still just grinds my gears.

I do agree about Rage though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

No
Lucario's Aura is not fine because it makes no sense from a game design standpoint along with Pokemon lore. Lucario's Aura doesn't work like that in Pokemon and it's like he is working with X-Factor which has no place in Smash Bros. That's why I much prefer the PM Lucario because that requires a lot of skill to master him unlike Lucario where he gets more range and power the more he is damaged. Granted that it will never change because Sakurai wouldn't be that crazy to change Lucario's style as the game is out already, but it definitely still just grinds my gears.

Ugh, let's not mention the travesty that is PM Lucario. You can't hate on Aura for not being accurate to the games, cause last I checked, Captain Falcon is a racer, not a Taekwondo master. I also never recall Fox setting himself on fire and launching to places.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Buff Marth. Give more different attributes to Lucina.

Aside from that, eh.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Buff Marth. Give more different attributes to Lucina.

Aside from that, eh.

What do you mean by "more attributes"? Luigify her? Cause that would be pretty cool. Wouldn't be too bad of an idea Luigifying Dark Pit.

 

[Alex Night]

Ugh, let's not mention the travesty that is PM Lucario. You can't hate on Aura for not being accurate to the games, cause last I checked, Captain Falcon is a racer, not a Taekwondo master. I also never recall Fox setting himself on fire and launching to places.

I can and I will because from a game design standpoint, it doesn't belong in Smash where you become more powerful the more damage you take. It goes against the competitive atmosphere where if you're behind, then you are under immense pressure and the winning player is taking full advantage of that. With Aura, the person who is "behind" is actually the one with the most pressure because he can kill you much sooner than before. That's the same thing with the stupid Rage mechanic. I get that you're trying to make each character unique, but Aura Lucario is very much anti-meta, especially when he can kill you at ridiculously low percents despite the fact that he has to commit to his moves. PM Lucario is the best thing that I could see with Lucario as he is still unique and can create some very unorthodox combos. You can keep telling me that Aura Lucario is well-designed and I will still call BS.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

What do you mean by "more attributes"? Luigify her? Cause that would be pretty cool. Wouldn't be too bad of an idea Luigifying Dark Pit.

Just change attributes like overall speed (air and ground), change her weight, and give her something to make up for lack of hitlag modifiers that Marth has.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I can and I will because from a game design standpoint, it doesn't belong in Smash where you become more powerful the more damage you take. It goes against the competitive atmosphere where if you're behind, then you are under immense pressure and the winning player is taking full advantage of that. With Aura, the person who is "behind" is actually the one with the most pressure because he can kill you much sooner than before. That's the same thing with the stupid Rage mechanic. I get that you're trying to make each character unique, but Aura Lucario is very much anti-meta, especially when he can kill you at ridiculously low percents despite the fact that he has to commit to his moves. PM Lucario is the best thing that I could see with Lucario as he is still unique and can create some very unorthodox combos. You can keep telling me that Aura Lucario is well-designed and I will still call BS.

See, what I think you fail to understand is that this game was not made with competitiveness in mind. This game was balanced around Free-for-Alls (which explains a lot). The game isn't going to abide by your every rule. You're beating a dead horse by complaining that something interferes with the game being competitive. You can keep telling me Aura is bull**** and I'll still call bull****. Rage will always be stupid, though.

 

[Dustydog96]

I really want to see:
1. Diddy Kong & Sheik nerfs, regarding landing lag, power, and priority
1.5 Sonic spin-dash nerf, regarding power and priority
2. Dr. Mario speed BUFF, on ground and air

That is all.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I really want to see:
1. Diddy Kong & Sheik nerfs, regarding landing lag, power, and priority
1.5 Sonic spin-dash nerf, regarding power and priority
2. Dr. Mario speed BUFF, on ground and air

That is all.

Dr. Mario actually has the 7th best air speed in the game, I think.

 

[Alex Night]

I really want to see:
1. Diddy Kong & Sheik nerfs, regarding landing lag, power, and priority
1.5 Sonic spin-dash nerf, regarding power and priority
2. Dr. Mario speed BUFF, on ground and air

That is all.

Spin-dash already has bad priority as it is. Literally, Sonic's Spin dash is fine.

 

[Knight Dude]

I want Mega Man's Down Smash and Slide Kick to be a little bit faster. Maybe Mario's Fireballs get a buff some kind too.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I want Mega Man's Down Smash and Slide Kick to be a little bit faster. Maybe Mario's Fireballs get a buff some kind too.

I want them to return to how they were in Brawl. They fall like they weigh 7 pounds here. A faster Slide would be nice.

 

[SethTheMage]

1. More shieldstun and hitstun in general, nerf rolling and airdodging (will never happen, but I can dream). At this point, the game is way too slow, campy, and defensive for my tastes.

2. Buff Palutena; make her Ftilt and Utilt not complete garbage, less windup time and more range on DSmash (so that it can actually punish rolls), make USmash's hitbox last a little longer, and more knockback on FSmash and DSmash. Also, maybe turn Uthrow into a kill throw? This will make Palutena more capable, even in her default moveset. Currently, without custom moves, she really struggles to keep up with the likes of hyper-offensive, mobile brawlers like Captain Falcon, Sonic, Sheik, Little Mac, Fox, etc. IMO, that's what's really holding her back in competitive play.

3. Buff Zelda; give her at least 1 kill throw and make her Smash Attacks into kill moves. Farore's Wind and her lighning kicks are not enough kill options to make her an effective fighter in my eyes. Plus, Zelda is in desperate need of a good approach, imo. I think that Sakurai really needs to take a leaf out of Project M's book in terms of balancing Zelda.

4. Buff Lucina and give her some more differences from Marth. Maybe make her faster, and more range to make up for the lack of a sweetspot? Also, add more damage/knockback to Marth/Lucina's moves in general.

5. Buff Bowser Jr./Koopalings. I don't care how, but buff them. I really wanted to regularly use Lemmy, but I can't find any ways to use him effectively as he is now.

Highly doubt these will happen, but I can always hope.

 

[SmashBroski]

Nerf: (to some degree)
Buff: (and other low tiers)

All I really want is just top tiers toned down a bit and under/rareley/never used characters to be buffed for viability.

 

[Troykv]

Mmm...

Buffs: maybe I forget others?
Nerfs: The HOO HAH thing?

Other changes: (Give him something to differentiate more to it from its original version).

 

[MarioMeteor]

Nerf:

What's wrong with my waifuImeanRosalina?

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

What's wrong with my waifuImeanRosalina?

Even with the nerfs she's still better than most characters

I feel like rosalina herself should be nerfed a bit so that she has to rely on the luma more since even when it's gone she can defend for herself perfectly fine. Even if rosalina didn't have her luma's she'd still be a good character and it shouldn't be that way

 

[MashPotato]

Just change diddy so that his side special puts him in free fall. Keep hop-hah, just make him easier to gimp.
Make G&W's fair kill at about 120% near the ledge and 140ish in the center and make back through a little stronger (like kill at 180% on the ledge).
Make lucina/marth have less landing lag on their aerials.
Make robin have better air speed and speed up arc fire.
A little less priority on sonic's spin dash (it clanks with ROBs down smash)
Maybe a few other buffs to heavies due to how good projectiles are.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Even with the nerfs she's still better than most characters

I feel like rosalina herself should be nerfed a bit so that she has to rely on the luma more since even when it's gone she can defend for herself perfectly fine. Even if rosalina didn't have her luma's she'd still be a good character and it shouldn't be that way

Sure it should. Rosalina is a good character but without Luma she drops below about a good half the cast. She's not going to be completely defenseless after Luma gets KO'd, that would be ********.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Sure it should. Rosalina is a good character but without Luma she drops below about a good half the cast. She's not going to be completely defenseless after Luma gets KO'd, that would be ********.

I just feel like she should have to rely on it more, like the ice climbers in a way where without nana, popo is completely helpless

 

[MarioMeteor]

I just feel like she should have to rely on it more, like the ice climbers in a way where without nana, popo is completely helpless

Case and point. ********.

 

[Alex Night]

Even with the nerfs she's still better than most characters

I feel like rosalina herself should be nerfed a bit so that she has to rely on the luma more since even when it's gone she can defend for herself perfectly fine. Even if rosalina didn't have her luma's she'd still be a good character and it shouldn't be that way

So because Rosalina can hold her own somewhat without the Luma, that's grounds for her to be nerfed even more? She really can't kill without the Luma and it is easy to send the Luma flying for a good number of characters. All she can really do is space out and stay away from her opponents, pecking on whatever damage possible until the Luma comes back.

 

[MarioMeteor]

So because Rosalina can hold her own somewhat without the Luma, that's grounds for her to be nerfed even more? She really can't kill without the Luma and it is easy to send the Luma flying for a good number of characters. All she can really do is space out and stay away from her opponents, pecking on whatever damage possible until the Luma comes back.

This, essentially. 1.0.4. already hit her hard enough, we don't need 0.5 wrecking mywaifuImeanRosalina more.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

So because Rosalina can hold her own somewhat without the Luma, that's grounds for her to be nerfed even more? She really can't kill without the Luma and it is easy to send the Luma flying for a good number of characters. All she can really do is space out and stay away from her opponents, pecking on whatever damage possible until the Luma comes back.

You act like that nerf hit her so hard, she went from top tier to almost top tier, it didn't make that much difference

 

[Alex Night]

You act like that nerf hit her so hard, she went from top tier to almost top tier, it didn't make that much difference

So? The point is to make her more manageable. The nerf does enough to the point where she has to be more mindful about sending out the Luma or she will have to be fighting on her own. She's a tall target and a lightweight. Before the changes, Rosalina was still beatable, but it was a giant chore in doing so. The version that she is now is still very good, but she is still within good reason of beating her. It's like people want to nerf characters solely because they are top tier, not because of actual design reasons like how the burst movement options for Sheik and Diddy are so good that they don't get much risk in throwing it out there. (Granted that Diddy commits far more than Sheik.)

 

[MarioMeteor]

You act like that nerf hit her so hard, she went from top tier to almost top tier, it didn't make that much difference

It did. She had essentially no weaknesses before. She was levels above the rest of the cast. 0.4 brought her down to Earth with the rest. Well, most of them.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

It did. She had essentially no weaknesses before. She was levels above the rest of the cast. 0.4 brought her down to Earth with the rest. Well, most of them.

She's still a lot better than most

 

[Deathcarter]

The only Rosalina nerf that's really justified is more end lag on Gravitational Pull. That bull**** makes the Pac-Man and Duck Hunt matchups among others absolute nightmares. No way should one single move imbalance a matchup that much.

 

[TriTails]

About the rage mechanic, keep in mind that it actually toned down Sheik a bit. If rage mechanic wasn't there...
- Sheik can just go ahead and combo people into 180% and not too scared about getting killed by stupid Bowser's F-smash and dying at like 40% with rage.
- You can't kill Sheik as easily.

Sheik is the one that benefited the least from rage. Even with rage, her killing power outside of BF and sweetspot U-smash is still laughable. Meanwhile, she is light, and she is built to combo into ridiculous percentages and kill them somehow (Like, seriously, why is my 210% Luigi is still alive?), and people can send her flying to the Mars already with that amount of rage (Rage maxes out at 150%, but still, 150% is a kill percent for Sheik). Sure, she's got edgeguarding skills, but rage still limits her.

It also helps heavyweights. It's a mechanic that does more good than harm, and IMO should stay.

And also, wishing Luigi's D-tilt got more range and/or less end lag (Especially the latter). Got nothing to think at the moment aside from the obvious monkey Up Air.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

AC Dair for Ganon would be really nice.

And we need Brawl Lasers for Falco, or at least reduce the recovery time drastically.
SH AC Laser for days son

 

[Jiggly]

Bring back brawl dair on Falco and he will immediately shoot up the tier list.

 

[MarioMeteor]

She's still a lot better than most

That's hardly an argument. Very few, if anybody, have an unwinnable matchup against Rosalina. See, what separates Rosalina from the other top characters like Diddy and Sonic is that she actually takes a rather large amount of skill to use.

 

[Alex Night]

About the rage mechanic, keep in mind that it actually toned down Sheik a bit. If rage mechanic wasn't there...
- Sheik can just go ahead and combo people into 180% and not too scared about getting killed by stupid Bowser's F-smash and dying at like 40% with rage.
- You can't kill Sheik as easily.

Sheik is the one that benefited the least from rage. Even with rage, her killing power outside of BF and sweetspot U-smash is still laughable. Meanwhile, she is light, and she is built to combo into ridiculous percentages and kill them somehow (Like, seriously, why is my 210% Luigi is still alive?), and people can send her flying to the Mars already with that amount of rage (Rage maxes out at 150%, but still, 150% is a kill percent for Sheik). Sure, she's got edgeguarding skills, but rage still limits her.

It also helps heavyweights. It's a mechanic that does more good than harm, and IMO should stay.

And also, wishing Luigi's D-tilt got more range and/or less end lag (Especially the latter). Got nothing to think at the moment aside from the obvious monkey Up Air.

The problem with that is that X-Factor the Pokemon is killing everybody at 30%. I don't care if Lucario isn't that good; no character should be killing that early. Rage goes against everything that any competitive game, including Chess, teaches us. If you're behind, then you're getting pressured and the one ahead has all of the advantage. With Rage, you still put on an even amount of pressure because now you can send enemies flying further even though you are at 120%.

You want Sheik toned down? Then tone down her burst movement option that is Bouncing Fish as she gets little risk just throwing it out there and make her landing lag glitch where you recover onto the stage diagonally get taken away so that she doesn't recover for free most of the time. It's like seeing Melee Fox with that landing lag. She'll still be good, but she will have to require smarter recovering and having to actually commit to her Bouncing Fish.