Balance patches are spoiling us

[Kaladin]

This MU discussion already happened on those respective character boards. The MU is roughly 50:50.

 

[Snackss]

Huh? What kind of Sheik is only throwing one needle at a time? Any halfway competent Sheik is throwing multiple needles, which will put you in a tumble state and pretty much completely invalidate any approach other than walking. Jumping over them doesn't work, all Sheik has to do is throw more to punish landing lag if you land too far away to attack, and if you land in range to do an aerial, well this is Smash 4, you're giving them a free shield grab. You're making the Sheik player out to be an idiot.

The fact that Kirby can use Sheik's own move against her is not an indication of counterpicks or strategies being found to counter Sheik. I don't see how that's anything but an indication of how absurd Sheik's needles are. People find one theoretical counterpick and act like this will rewrite the meta.

 

[Raijinken]

Huh? What kind of Sheik is only throwing one needle at a time? Any halfway competent Sheik is throwing multiple needles, which will put you in a tumble state and pretty much completely invalidate any approach other than walking. Jumping over them doesn't work, all Sheik has to do is throw more to punish landing lag if you land too far away to attack, and if you land in range to do an aerial, well this is Smash 4, you're giving them a free shield grab. You're making the Sheik player out to be an idiot.

The fact that Kirby can use Sheik's own move against her is not an indication of counterpicks or strategies being found to counter Sheik. I don't see how that's anything but an indication of how absurd Sheik's needles are. People find one theoretical counterpick and act like this will rewrite the meta.

Good point. Even Metaknight had a not-free matchup (Pikachu, I believe). Didn't make Pikachu meta, though.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Huh? What kind of Sheik is only throwing one needle at a time? Any halfway competent Sheik is throwing multiple needles, which will put you in a tumble state and pretty much completely invalidate any approach other than walking. Jumping over them doesn't work, all Sheik has to do is throw more to punish landing lag if you land too far away to attack, and if you land in range to do an aerial, well this is Smash 4, you're giving them a free shield grab. You're making the Sheik player out to be an idiot.

Throwing one needle at a time is great in certain situations. Rarely at mid percent, but definitely at higher percent you want the threat of edging your opponent out of the neutral game quickly. Plus, a lot of Sheik players who have their ATs down use wave needles/b-reverse needles, allowing the Sheik to keep mobile while needling the opponent. Calling Sheik players incompetent for only throwing one needle seems rude. *Also, at higher percent single needles apply the tumble state.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Huh? What kind of Sheik is only throwing one needle at a time? Any halfway competent Sheik is throwing multiple needles, which will put you in a tumble state and pretty much completely invalidate any approach other than walking. Jumping over them doesn't work, all Sheik has to do is throw more to punish landing lag if you land too far away to attack, and if you land in range to do an aerial, well this is Smash 4, you're giving them a free shield grab. You're making the Sheik player out to be an idiot.

The fact that Kirby can use Sheik's own move against her is not an indication of counterpicks or strategies being found to counter Sheik. I don't see how that's anything but an indication of how absurd Sheik's needles are. People find one theoretical counterpick and act like this will rewrite the meta.

Charged needles takes time.
TIME
Time is something you don't want to spen doing on a move in neutral. As a Roy main, I could just bum rush you from the jump for charging needles. I won't hot you, but I'll be in your face, and needles /= true zoning tool, they don't cover enough space for invalidation of multiple movement options (they only cover horizontal and diagonal and the sheik has to be in the air to perform the diagonal angle) and the sheik has tongues when to throw needles since you can mix up the jumping pattern and even double jump. There's also a certain tame where throwing charge needles is punishable and isn't not hard to get to that distance. It's almost sounds like you're just holding shield and trying to guess when sheiks gonna throw'em, which is something you should not do.
Plus, you're not getting what I am saying. I'm trying to explain that kirby, move-by-move, does more damage than sheik overall and his attacks are more powerful. If he can trade every hit with her, she's the first to be in the danger zone. This could work for majority of the characters in this game that you should be looking for a trade instead outright beating her neutral.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's a damn lie. A god damn lie. This isn't Melee, there are no hidden variables to most of these characters. Top is just better, mid is outclassed, low sucks. Thats how it always is in Smash.

Walk into a real tournament running a crappy character, run up on a good shiek, mario, rosalina, and watch yourself get 2 stocked. Repeatedly.

Sorry, i don't know what kind of super good player you think you can be, but the chance of you maining a known low-tier character and winning a tournament with competent players is extraordinarily low. Smash has never been a mid/low tier friendly game. You may snuff some people out in pools, but the moment you encounter that good shiek main, start praying.

Balance patches are really the only saving grace. Majority of their balance patches range from kneejerk to misinformed, though, it doesn't seem like they really pay attention to the tournament scene unless people are actively crying about it everywhere.



Falco is quite noticeably better.

If anything, people should be angry that they keep releasing balance patches, but don't seem to use anything other than terrible For Glory to influence their changes. Characters like Zelda and Samus have been bad since release, and have even been nerfed since.

We should have all been skeptical of this game's balance when Sakurai came out in that E3 Invitational and tried to say Samus was OP. Im sure nobody picked her for a good reason...

This game has been far more mid tier friendly than past iterations by a long shot.

Melee also has never had hidden variables, the list only shifted as it has because the surprise characters were shown to be a lot better.

Just like in Brawl.

 

[AaronSMASH]

Oh man. So Nairo and ZeRo are both "beyond ******** and arrogant" and clearly just haven't practiced enough. Oooookaaayyy. This guy isn't going to last very long.

And Falco needs to not just be buffed, they need to completely rethink him. He wasn't even overpowered in Brawl. I can understand removing the insta-spike, but they took EVERYTHING from him. There's no reason at all to use him over Fox or Mario.

So ZeRo and Nairo have both figured this game out completely and are the last authority on everything smash? Kk.

Guess we can stop playing guys. ZeRo is never going to be beaten. Just mail him the prize money.

Oh man. So Nairo and ZeRo are both "beyond ******** and arrogant" and clearly just haven't practiced enough. Oooookaaayyy. This guy isn't going to last very long.

And Falco needs to not just be buffed, they need to completely rethink him. He wasn't even overpowered in Brawl. I can understand removing the insta-spike, but they took EVERYTHING from him. There's no reason at all to use him over Fox or Mario.

So ZeRo and Nairo have both figured this game out completely and are the last authority on everything smash? Kk.

Guess we can stop playing guys. ZeRo is never going to be beaten. Just mail him the prize money.

Yea no, I'm done with this Aaron dude. You're arrogant, condescending way of talking makes me cringe, and I don't want to deal with it.

Moving on with the (mostly) good discussion we're having here.

I'm a game designer and programmer. Been doing it for over 10 years now. Keeping a game with any sort of player vs player combat balanced is absolutely essential. I know this from experience. Tiers exist, good characters exist, bad characters exist, average characters exist. It's all in the game, it's all in the numbers. And it's reeeeaaaally easy to figure out which characters are or aren't good.

So, you all know ZeRo. He's undoubtedly the best Smash 4 player in the U.S. and South America, and probably the world.

Let's think about the following scenario:

Somewhere, there is a Sheik main. A good Sheik main. He wins all the locals, he's well known in his state, and has a good time with his buddies playing smash, enjoying the game, and growing better together. He's probably placed well in some national tournaments. Chances are he's better than most people.

Now, let's say he has to face ZeRo, Sheik v Sheik. Who's going to win? ZeRo, obviously.

Let's say he has to face ZeRo, where ZeRo plays someone like Marth, or Zelda. Chances are, even though ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player around, he's going to lose. He may have put 100's, maybe 1000's of hours into playing a low tier character. Learning it. Perfecting it. Doing everything he can to become the best with that character.

He will still lose to Sheik.

Why?

Simply because Sheik is the better character, and the Sheik player is an excellent Sheik player. He's not the best, he's not well known, but he's damn good. It's not because ZeRo is bad, or that the Sheik player is good. It's because Sheik is the better character.

It's as simple as that. That, unfortunately, is how it works. Unfortunately, no amount of work will win you a national with a low tier character. As I said earlier, it's in the game, it's in the numbers. That's just how it works. I know this from firsthand experience.

However, through the magic of patches, this can be fixed. It will never, ever be perfectly balanced. The only way a game could be perfectly balanced is if the game only had 1 character. However, a game can get really, really close to being perfectly balanced. To the point where any character can win a big national tournament, and more characters are considered viable.

You have no evidence as to how that situation might play out. You just say "this is how it is" and expect it to be taken as fact.

Only, it's not. And being a game designer doesn't change the fact that it is an opinion.

I would love if this game was figured out completely. That way we would know what needs to be changed and we could fix it. The truth is, we don't.

We need to take a deep breath and give it some time. It seems to me that since day 1, people have been pointing out how "broken" one character or another is.

I understand it's easier to say your opponents character is broken then to figure out a way to beat it. Thats what the majority of the league community does. I don't expect it to be different here. I just hope these people are spending less time complaining and more time practicing.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Charged needles takes time.
TIME

Not nearly enough of it.

 

[rm88]

Hmmm... no, I'm rather enjoying having a balanced game for once. Melee and especially Brawl were pretty bad about this, bring all the nerfs and buffs needed IMO. It doesn't really matter if the game is young or not, Mortal Kombat X is getting balance patches as well, some of them even for very new characters like Tanya who was rather over-represented at CEO this year. I'll be perfectly honest, I mostly see mains of top tiers complaining about balance patches I mained Kirby back in Melee, I guess I'm just immune to slight nerfs to perfectly viable characters.

This year's CEO top 8 had 6 different characters and 2 Sheiks. That's... incredibly refreshing in a SSB game.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Not nearly enough of it.

Nobody is ever gonna have a full charge of needles unless they kick their opponent out of neutral long enough to charge it.

 

[J0A0B]

So ZeRo and Nairo have both figured this game out completely and are the last authority on everything smash? Kk.

Guess we can stop playing guys. ZeRo is never going to be beaten. Just mail him the prize money.


You have no evidence as to how that situation might play out. You just say "this is how it is" and expect it to be taken as fact.

Only, it's not. And being a game designer doesn't change the fact that it is an opinion.

I would love if this game was figured out completely. That way we would know what needs to be changed and we could fix it. The truth is, we don't.

We need to take a deep breath and give it some time. It seems to me that since day 1, people have been pointing out how "broken" one character or another is.

I understand it's easier to say your opponents character is broken then to figure out a way to beat it. Thats what the majority of the league community does. I don't expect it to be different here. I just hope these people are spending less time complaining and more time practicing.

You think they're not practicing enough to determine overall outcome? You think people are just claiming the easiest solution to decide who is unbalanced? You also think 8 long months is not enough time to get a clue as to what ranks the roster close enough to accurate results?

What exactly do you expect is worthy enough to qualify "completely figuring out" the game? Of course we're aware ZeRo and Nairo are not the authority of everything Smash. Nobody ever implied that. I'm sure they practice longer than any of us to get enough experience to determine the general advantages and disadvantages of each character. Sure they're probably a bit complacent to their picks for tournaments, but that doesn't mean they don't learn about other characters and matchups after fighting them countless times.

Nice to know how sore you are about ZeRo's undefeated streak. At least that's what I'm gonna assume. I admitted I don't like the guy either and think he's a bit obnoxious, but you don't see me blaming him for Sheik's overpowered tier status or what has become of the overall metagame.

And don't judge other people so easily based on their credibility. A game designer may not know everything about "this game", but 10 years of experience in understanding general games can certainly bring out more than just an opinion. It's not just theory, it's research. In the words of the lead designer of these smash games as said to an arrogant player who challenged his way of work, "Have you ever made a game?"

 

[Divemissile]

So ZeRo and Nairo have both figured this game out completely and are the last authority on everything smash? Kk.

Guess we can stop playing guys. ZeRo is never going to be beaten. Just mail him the prize money.



So ZeRo and Nairo have both figured this game out completely and are the last authority on everything smash? Kk.

Guess we can stop playing guys. ZeRo is never going to be beaten. Just mail him the prize money.


You have no evidence as to how that situation might play out. You just say "this is how it is" and expect it to be taken as fact.

Only, it's not. And being a game designer doesn't change the fact that it is an opinion.

I would love if this game was figured out completely. That way we would know what needs to be changed and we could fix it. The truth is, we don't.

We need to take a deep breath and give it some time. It seems to me that since day 1, people have been pointing out how "broken" one character or another is.

I understand it's easier to say your opponents character is broken then to figure out a way to beat it. Thats what the majority of the league community does. I don't expect it to be different here. I just hope these people are spending less time complaining and more time practicing.

you're honestly pissing me off. you keep repeating your stupid arguments over and over again about how we haven't figured out everything in the game. of course we haven't, but we have a general idea which character is good and which is bad. no matter how much you practice as mr. game and watch, you'll never beat a good sheik player. period.

 

[AaronSMASH]

You think they're not practicing enough to determine overall outcome? You think people are just claiming the easiest solution to decide who is unbalanced? You also think 8 long months is not enough time to get a clue as to what ranks the roster close enough to accurate results?

What exactly do you expect is worthy enough to qualify "completely figuring out" the game? Of course we're aware ZeRo and Nairo are not the authority of everything Smash. Nobody ever implied that. I'm sure they practice longer than any of us to get enough experience to determine the general advantages and disadvantages of each character. Sure they're probably a bit complacent to their picks for tournaments, but that doesn't mean they don't learn about other characters and matchups after fighting them countless times.

Nice to know how sore you are about ZeRo's undefeated streak. At least that's what I'm gonna assume. I admitted I don't like the guy either and think he's a bit obnoxious, but you don't see me blaming him for Sheik's overpowered tier status or what has become of the overall metagame.

And don't judge other people so easily based on their credibility. A game designer may not know everything about "this game", but 10 years of experience in understanding general games can certainly bring out more than just an opinion. It's not just theory, it's research. In the words of the lead designer of these smash games as said to an arrogant player who challenged his way of work, "Have you ever made a game?"

I have no personal feelings about ZeRo. Actually, i think people are really disrespectful to him for all of the wrong reasons. In general, people try to chalk up his success to the "op" characters he uses. Then they decide to emulate him because they conclude that it's the only way to win. Which is a huge reason that we haven't seen more development in the metagame.

His undefeated streak is just more proof that the metagame isn't developed. In a developed metagame you see parity at the highest levels of play. We obviously aren't seeing that. He frequently 2 stocks the players that are supposed to be the 2nd or 3rd best in the country.

I don't care about anyone's 'credibility'. He could be the best game designer in the world. That doesn't make his claim that it's impossible for a low tier to win a major any less false.

you're honestly pissing me off. you keep repeating your stupid arguments over and over again about how we haven't figured out everything in the game. of course we haven't, but we have a general idea which character is good and which is bad. no matter how much you practice as mr. game and watch, you'll never beat a good sheik player. period.

That's just a really pathetic mindset. The fact is that we DON'T know with absolute certainty which characters are so bad or so good that they need to be changed.

I think balance patches ARE 'spoiling' people because just the possibility of them breeds this silly attitude. "Nobody has done it yet therefore it can't be done so we need to change the character."

 

[Nobie]

Wait , I know this is somewhat off topic but is the GW vs. Sheik matching all that bad? GW seems like he has the mobility specs to keep up, is hard to juggle and edgeguarded, and doesn't suffer too much from being light against a character who doesn't kill early. If anything I wonder if this shows how people, whether there are patches or not, will see one character as high, one as low, and just assume the outcome of the match without thinking further as to how those characters interact because "who cares " right?

 

[J0A0B]

His undefeated streak is just more proof that the metagame isn't developed. In a developed metagame you see parity at the highest levels of play. We obviously aren't seeing that. He frequently 2 stocks the players that are supposed to be the 2nd or 3rd best in the country.

I don't care about anyone's 'credibility'. He could be the best game designer in the world. That doesn't make his claim that it's impossible for a low tier to win a major any less false.



That's just a really pathetic mindset. The fact is that we DON'T know with absolute certainty which characters are so bad or so good that they need to be changed.

I think balance patches ARE 'spoiling' people because just the possibility of them breeds this silly attitude. "Nobody has done it yet therefore it can't be done so we need to change the character."

What exactly is there left to develop? There seemed to be plenty of parity in the CEO tournament matches other than ZeRo's. Judging by Nairo's heavy loss from ZeRo though, it seemed most of the time, Nairo had to rely on predicting his opponent's moves sense there was nothing readable or punishable on Sheik to exploit against, while with ZeRo, it's vice-versa with punishment against ZSS's throw recovery or whiffed specials. It doesn't even matter what moves are used because when it takes nothing but mind-reading to defeat one character while another takes mind-reading AND punishable vulnerability to defeat, there's clearly a huge gap between the two in terms of finding weaknesses.

You know what? Balance patches shouldn't have anything to do with spoiling. I see them more as a helping hand in need. Like a sidekick who just arrived to toss you a lost weapon needed to slay a terrifyingly invincible beast before reaching the brink of despair. If there weren't balance patches, people wouldn't be more encouraged to try out weaker characters that could be fixed, and other people would just pick the strongest options for victory via shortcuts to exploit their way to the top without any feeling of being challenged. If I had a former top tier character that got nerfed like Greninja, it only means I have to try harder to win with that character, and thereby contribute to further developing the metagame. Patches don't spoil, they encourage. If anything, it's the complacency to the current balance that spoils people because they're not willing to except change and adapt to it.

 

[Divemissile]

I have no personal feelings about ZeRo. Actually, i think people are really disrespectful to him for all of the wrong reasons. In general, people try to chalk up his success to the "op" characters he uses. Then they decide to emulate him because they conclude that it's the only way to win. Which is a huge reason that we haven't seen more development in the metagame.

His undefeated streak is just more proof that the metagame isn't developed. In a developed metagame you see parity at the highest levels of play. We obviously aren't seeing that. He frequently 2 stocks the players that are supposed to be the 2nd or 3rd best in the country.

I don't care about anyone's 'credibility'. He could be the best game designer in the world. That doesn't make his claim that it's impossible for a low tier to win a major any less false.



That's just a really pathetic mindset. The fact is that we DON'T know with absolute certainty which characters are so bad or so good that they need to be changed.

I think balance patches ARE 'spoiling' people because just the possibility of them breeds this silly attitude. "Nobody has done it yet therefore it can't be done so we need to change the character."

We may not know for sure, but we do have a general idea. I doubt we'd see a low tier character suddenly become a hight tier character without some balance patches. No amount of time spent on a character like DK will make them rival the high tier characters. Wether it be 100 hours or 10000 hours, you can't make a low tier character beat people like ZeRo.

 

[AaronSMASH]

What exactly is there left to develop? There seemed to be plenty of parity in the CEO tournament matches other than ZeRo's. Judging by Nairo's heavy loss from ZeRo though, it seemed most of the time, Nairo had to rely on predicting his opponent's moves sense there was nothing readable or punishable on Sheik to exploit against, while with ZeRo, it's vice-versa with punishment against ZSS's throw recovery or whiffed specials. It doesn't even matter what moves are used because when it takes nothing but mind-reading to defeat one character while another takes mind-reading AND punishable vulnerability to defeat, there's clearly a huge gap between the two in terms of finding weaknesses.

You know what? Balance patches shouldn't have anything to do with spoiling. I see them more as a helping hand in need. Like a sidekick who just arrived to toss you a lost weapon needed to slay a terrifyingly invincible beast before reaching the brink of despair. If there weren't balance patches, people wouldn't be more encouraged to try out weaker characters that could be fixed, and other people would just pick the strongest options for victory via shortcuts to exploit their way to the top without any feeling of being challenged. If I had a former top tier character that got nerfed like Greninja, it only means I have to try harder to win with that character, and thereby contribute to further developing the metagame. Patches don't spoil, they encourage. If anything, it's the complacency to the current balance that spoils people because they're not willing to except change and adapt to it.

One guy dominating the scene consistently means that there isn't parity. He's on a different level. Currently, he's playing at the 'highest level'.

We may not know for sure, but we do have a general idea. I doubt we'd see a low tier character suddenly become a hight tier character without some balance patches. No amount of time spent on a character like DK will make them rival the high tier characters. Wether it be 100 hours or 10000 hours, you can't make a low tier character beat people like ZeRo.

There it is again. "If it hasn't happened yet, then it isn't possible."

No matter how many hours one spends on a character, they could be spending it playing that character in a way that isn't necessarily the best way to play it. And on the 10,001st hour, maybe they try something different and it works out and changes everything.

 

[RayNoire]

There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown around here that I don't think is helping anybody.

Low tiers are very capable of beating high tiers. People make mistakes, people make reads, and even low tiers have safe options.

The problem isn't that it is impossible for a low tier to beat a high tier. It is that it requires much more effort and allows for much fewer mistakes than the converse.

You can invest thousands of hours in the game and be able to beat Sheik with Robin or Mewtwo.

The problem is, why would you?

 

[J0A0B]

There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown around here that I don't think is helping anybody.

Low tiers are very capable of beating high tiers. People make mistakes, people make reads, and even low tiers have safe options.

The problem isn't that it is impossible for a low tier to beat a high tier. It is that it requires much more effort and allows for much fewer mistakes than the converse.

You can invest thousands of hours in the game and be able to beat Sheik with Robin or Mewtwo.

The problem is, why would you?

Good point. I'm a Charizard player and I know he has a ton of weaknesses that can be exploited by speedy characters and zoners. I've beaten plenty of Sheiks online, but it's always by a hair and from what I've experienced, one small mistake can cost me the whole match. For Sheik though, it requires one HUGE mistake to cost her the game since Charizard has longer startup on all his finishing moves. I have to rely on eating damage like a tank just to build up enough damage to execute that finisher, and by then I'm risking it all. It takes a long time for me to master Charizard the right way, while it feels a lot quicker to master Sheik when it comes to stage control and priority. I could beat a Sheik on ZeRo's level if I trained five times as long as he did, but that means I'm gonna eat a LOT of punishment and failure in the process, while those who practiced with Sheik, Luigi, Diddy, ZSS and other top tiers can reach that same amount of time with more victories and less punishment seeing how several players placed in many semis or finals with those characters. I'm doing my best, but many others will always be one step ahead with the same effort, especially if they take the shortcuts like top tiers.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Good point. I'm a Charizard player and I know he has a ton of weaknesses that can be exploited by speedy characters and zoners. I've beaten plenty of Sheiks online, but it's always by a hair and from what I've experienced, one small mistake can cost me the whole match. For Sheik though, it requires one HUGE mistake to cost her the game since Charizard has longer startup on all his finishing moves. I have to rely on eating damage like a tank just to build up enough damage to execute that finisher, and by then I'm risking it all. It takes a long time for me to master Charizard the right way, while it feels a lot quicker to master Sheik when it comes to stage control and priority. I could beat a Sheik on ZeRo's level if I trained five times as long as he did, but that means I'm gonna eat a LOT of punishment and failure in the process, while those who practiced with Sheik, Luigi, Diddy, ZSS and other top tiers can reach that same amount of time with more victories and less punishment seeing how several players placed in many semis or finals with those characters. I'm doing my best, but many others will always be one step ahead with the same effort, especially if they take the shortcuts like top tiers.

Rock Smash is too good against Sheik :/ So are OoS options like Up Smash/Up-B. That kill throw buff also scares me as a Sheik player :/

 

[J0A0B]

Rock Smash is too good against Sheik :/ So are OoS options like Up Smash/Up-B. That kill throw buff also scares me as a Sheik player :/

Yeah I know. That's how I'm beating them. But they can still bait me to do those and defend or evade to take advantage of my vulnerability.

 

[LightLV]

This game has been far more mid tier friendly than past iterations by a long shot.

Melee also has never had hidden variables, the list only shifted as it has because the surprise characters were shown to be a lot better.

Just like in Brawl.

L-cancel, directional airdodge and individual character's sliding index alone provided enough leeway for melee to shift its characters around.

"more mid tier friendly" in the context of smash 4 really isn't saying much of anything, especially coming out of Brawl.

 

[cot(θ)]

Take a look at Melee's tier list over time. The top 4 characters in the very first tier list are the same as the top 4 characters in the current tier list. The next 4 characters however, were quite low on the first tier list, and didn't start to rise for quite some time. Even so though, assuming our ability to figure out the game is the same as it was when Melee was released (which is extremely pessimistic), using our current understanding of the game to drive buffs and nerfs is still going to do more good than harm.

 

[Divemissile]

One guy dominating the scene consistently means that there isn't parity. He's on a different level. Currently, he's playing at the 'highest level'.



There it is again. "If it hasn't happened yet, then it isn't possible."

No matter how many hours one spends on a character, they could be spending it playing that character in a way that isn't necessarily the best way to play it. And on the 10,001st hour, maybe they try something different and it works out and changes everything.

That's not how it works. Low tier character aren't low just because people can't play them right, they're low because they are infierior to the high and mid tier characters in terms of things like frame data.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

L-cancel, directional airdodge and individual character's sliding index alone provided enough leeway for melee to shift its characters around.

"more mid tier friendly" in the context of smash 4 really isn't saying much of anything, especially coming out of Brawl.

That first one was found out in 4 weeks, there was no hidden variable people figured it out fast and surprise, the best characters in 2001, are the same in 2015. There is no hidden deep meaning in the game, the game's balance is the worst of the big three; Melee, PM, Sm4sh.

The only hidden tech or skill is Fox turning around and using utilt to stuff out approaches from Falcon and the like.

Sm4sh and PM On the other hand reward using outside of the top 4-8. Ganon gets fourth with Ray Kalm behind the wheel outplacing M2K, without customs I might add.

This game and PM have shown patches are good for adding new life and health to a game on top of the already better balance.

 

[salaboB]

Haha I stopped using Sonic months ago m8, I just forgot to change it. But back to my main point these nerfs are unneccessary, I will gladly accept buffs. However, the reality is they can't buff every character who's bad because then they would be too dominant for casual players.

Example: If they buffed Bowser to the point where he was good competitively. Then for casual gamers he would be absolutely insane. Because currently he is a pretty solid character for the casual gamer.

And from what we have seen so far. Nintendo wants to also balance casual play, which is why no heavies will be buffed to a competitively viable level.

They could buff heavies' tilt attacks a bit when help was needed.

I don't think casual players actually use tilts on purpose, ever.

Buffing throws (As was done with Charizard) would probably be pretty safe for casual power levels, too.

 

[AaronSMASH]

That's not how it works. Low tier character aren't low just because people can't play them right, they're low because they are infierior to the high and mid tier characters in terms of things like frame data.

You could make a tier list on frame data alone and I wouldn't care. But that isn't what tier lists are. Tier lists aren't a ranking of the best frame data. It's a ranking of characters potential in competitive play. Frame data is far from the only factor. If it was, then everyone would play the same character in tournaments.

You can't determine a character to be completely inferior unless you have seen that character played at the highest level. No character has been played at the highest level. Much less every character which is what it would take to compare that character to the whole cast and form a real tier list.

 

[Infinite901]

What characters got patched into oblivion?

Bowser. Just Bowser.

 

[Divemissile]

You could make a tier list on frame data alone and I wouldn't care. But that isn't what tier lists are. Tier lists aren't a ranking of the best frame data. It's a ranking of characters potential in competitive play. Frame data is far from the only factor. If it was, then everyone would play the same character in tournaments.

You can't determine a character to be completely inferior unless you have seen that character played at the highest level. No character has been played at the highest level. Much less every character which is what it would take to compare that character to the whole cast and form a real tier list.

I said things like frame data, not just frame data. You could at least read my posts before you respond to them.

 

[AaronSMASH]

I said things like frame data, not just frame data. You could at least read my posts before you respond to them.

That's the only factor you took into account. It's the only quantifiable factor that you can measure across the board. The rest are up to the person to make use or not make use of.

Samus bomb takes forever to come out. Bad frame data. At first glance it seems useless. But it isn't, due to things that you can't measure or quantify.

D3s Gordo is slow to come out and easy to reject back at him. Seems useless. Until you tilt up to make it bounce in place and use it as a wall and to potentially tack on more damage on a grab. Not to mention the edge possibilities.

All characters have not been fully explored because of a combination of the game being new and because of the attitude behind tier lists and balance patches.

"If it hasn't been done yet, then it is impossible."

 

[Divemissile]

That's the only factor you took into account. It's the only quantifiable factor that you can measure across the board. The rest are up to the person to make use or not make use of.

Samus bomb takes forever to come out. Bad frame data. At first glance it seems useless. But it isn't, due to things that you can't measure or quantify.

D3s Gordo is slow to come out and easy to reject back at him. Seems useless. Until you tilt up to make it bounce in place and use it as a wall and to potentially tack on more damage on a grab. Not to mention the edge possibilities.

All characters have not been fully explored because of a combination of the game being new and because of the attitude behind tier lists and balance patches.

"If it hasn't been done yet, then it is impossible."

Are you even reading my posts?

 

[ArikadoSD]

What characters got patched into oblivion? Greninja went from Top to High, Diddy is stiil quite good, Sheik is still the best in the game. Also, it's not like anyone's said "I'm not playing until the game gets changed." Smash 4 tournaments are still bringing in a ton of people playing whatever characters they enjoy.

It sounds like you're complaining about something that was never a problem to begin with.

Greninja is not high tier, what are you talking about? He's barely even mid tier and this is pretty much a collective opinion of most people who play Sm4sh competitively.

Diddy went from #1 to barely top 5 and believed by many to not even be top 5, to not even being top 10.

Sheik is the one you got right though.

I honestly agree with the OP. Balance patches are fine, but only if they know what they're doing. And Sakurai/balancing team honestly don't know what they're doing when it comes to nerfing characters as can be seen from all the nerfs all the characters got that weren't really needed.

 

[AaronSMASH]

Are you even reading my posts?

That's not how it works. Low tier character aren't low just because people can't play them right, they're low because they are infierior to the high and mid tier characters in terms of things like frame data.

What you said was that they are inferior because of things like frame data.

Can you name one other thing that can be measured/quantified completely objectively for comparison between the entire cast? Aside from air/move speed.

Damage? No. Not all high damage moves are 'good'. Reach/range of the moves? No. They could be extremely slow as well and be situational.

So what are these other things "like" frame data that you have so thoroughly and OBJECTIVELY taken into account when dismissing a character as low tier?

The characters that are considered "high tier" right now are perceived that way because they are more forgiving. They are harder to punish on mistakes and are easier to punish with. That makes them easier to play/learn/succeed with on a high level (but not necessarily easier at the HIGHEST level). The characters seen as low may very well have an overally disadvantage at the levels we see people playing them at now.

That doesn't mean that at the highest levels they couldn't become viable competitively. We don't know, because we haven't seen anyone play them on that level. Not saying they DEFINITELY are viable. I'm saying we couldn't possibly know for sure after 8 months.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. I think people just want the game to be easier so they either copy the best players or complain about their "low tier" main or about the "op" characters.

 

[Divemissile]

What you said was that they are inferior because of things like frame data.

Can you name one other thing that can be measured/quantified completely objectively for comparison between the entire cast? Aside from air/move speed.

Damage? No. Not all high damage moves are 'good'. Reach/range of the moves? No. They could be extremely slow as well and be situational.

So what are these other things "like" frame data that you have so thoroughly and OBJECTIVELY taken into account when dismissing a character as low tier?

The characters that are considered "high tier" right now are perceived that way because they are more forgiving. They are harder to punish on mistakes and are easier to punish with. That makes them easier to play/learn/succeed with on a high level (but not necessarily easier at the HIGHEST level). The characters seen as low may very well have an overally disadvantage at the levels we see people playing them at now.

That doesn't mean that at the highest levels they couldn't become viable competitively. We don't know, because we haven't seen anyone play them on that level. Not saying they DEFINITELY are viable. I'm saying we couldn't possibly know for sure after 8 months.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. I think people just want the game to be easier so they either copy the best players or complain about their "low tier" main or about the "op" characters.

How many times do I have to say this? No matter how many hours you put into a low tier character, you won't be able to beat a good player with a high tier character. You can keep being obnoxious and repeating your stupid arguments about how we don't know everything, but it won't change that fact.

 

[AaronSMASH]

How many times do I have to say this? No matter how many hours you put into a low tier character, you won't be able to beat a good player with a high tier character. You can keep being obnoxious and repeating your stupid arguments about how we don't know everything, but it won't change that fact.

Very well then. I guess some people just need excuses. Hopefully there are people out there that don't have that pathetic defeatist attitude and realize that if it hasn't been done yet, it doesn't mean it can't.

 

[ARGHETH]

Very well then. I guess some people just need excuses. Hopefully there are people out there that don't have that pathetic defeatist attitude and realize that if it hasn't been done yet, it doesn't mean it can't.

Just because it can, doesn't mean it will.

 

[salaboB]

Just because it can, doesn't mean it will.

It definitely won't if people don't even try.

 

[AaronSMASH]

It definitely won't if people don't even try.

Exactly.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Let's all just learn how to play Yoshi, and win.

 

[LabrysXII]

I honestly agree with the OP. Balance patches are fine, but only if they know what they're doing. And Sakurai/balancing team honestly don't know what they're doing when it comes to nerfing characters as can be seen from all the nerfs all the characters got that weren't really needed.

I agree that some of the decisions made by the balancing team were...iffy to say the least. They did make some good decisions though, I think Ike's buffs did wonders for the character, and Link's too. Maybe an Ike or a more experienced Link user may prove me wrong. The Marcina buffs were okay, more could be done in my eyes (the stronger jab is pretty cool tho).

As long as there are meaningful buffs to certain characters, similar to Ike's/Link's, I think we'll be fine. But again, I may be wrong. Feel free to disprove me if I am.