Balance patches are spoiling us

[Tenretsujin10]

Then I guess you're relatively happy with the style we've had now, with patches every few months mostly doing small things?

I want to say yes and no. I'd prefer patches to be released less often, with more study focused on ways to fix lower-tiered characters instead of giving misc. buffs that potentially have no weight. I felt that the recent falco buff in 1.0.8 didn't make too much sense at all.

 

[Thinkaman]

Smash 4 has had 4 balance patches in 10 months.

This is less than half the rate of every truly successful modern competitive game. The big 5:

• League has had 154 in the last 6 years.
• DotA2 has had 445 in the last 5 years, though they include minor hotfixes in that count. (Or rather, they make no distinction)
• SC2 has had 77 patches in 5 years.
• CS:GO has had 24 patches in 3 years, though also more hotfixes per patch than any other game.
• Hearthstone has had 25 in 2 years, though some are very small.

A robust game requires robust maintenance. This was proven by the success of the original Starcraft, which had 29 patches in an era where patching was very unusual and difficult.

 

[LightLV]

Not a single character in the game can be considered "not viable" in tournament play because we have no way of knowing the full potential of any given character after only 8 months.

That's a damn lie. A god damn lie. This isn't Melee, there are no hidden variables to most of these characters. Top is just better, mid is outclassed, low sucks. Thats how it always is in Smash.

Walk into a real tournament running a crappy character, run up on a good shiek, mario, rosalina, and watch yourself get 2 stocked. Repeatedly.

Sorry, i don't know what kind of super good player you think you can be, but the chance of you maining a known low-tier character and winning a tournament with competent players is extraordinarily low. Smash has never been a mid/low tier friendly game. You may snuff some people out in pools, but the moment you encounter that good shiek main, start praying.

Balance patches are really the only saving grace. Majority of their balance patches range from kneejerk to misinformed, though, it doesn't seem like they really pay attention to the tournament scene unless people are actively crying about it everywhere.

I want to say yes and no. I'd prefer patches to be released less often, with more study focused on ways to fix lower-tiered characters instead of giving misc. buffs that potentially have no weight. I felt that the recent falco buff in 1.0.8 didn't make too much sense at all.

Falco is quite noticeably better.

If anything, people should be angry that they keep releasing balance patches, but don't seem to use anything other than terrible For Glory to influence their changes. Characters like Zelda and Samus have been bad since release, and have even been nerfed since.

We should have all been skeptical of this game's balance when Sakurai came out in that E3 Invitational and tried to say Samus was OP. Im sure nobody picked her for a good reason...

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Wrong. Incredibly, naively, absurdly wrong.

Sorry if you simply aren't good enough or dont have the time to practice a character but Robin can beat Sheik any time if you are actually good. So can DK. So can anyone in the cast.

People just aren't willing to put In the work. How long do you people think it took for the melee 'gods' to reach the level of mastery/parity that they have at the top levels of play? Not one year. Not two. Not even three.

Try harder instead of demanding that the game cater to YOU.

Do you know who Nairo is? He's considered by many to be the second best Smash 4 player in the U.S. right now, and is the undisputed best Robin player in the world. He's put tons of work into Robin. Do you know what he says about the Sheik-Robin matchup? He says that it's nearly unwinnable for Robin. This has nothing to do with me not being good enough (nice personal attack, by the way), this has to do with the way the characters work. If you think Nairo "simply isn't good enough" too, you're crazy.

Anyway, this is off-topic. I'm not going to argue with someone who thinks tires don exits.

 

[Kaladin]

Yeah... I think I'm done here. This is like talking to a wall.

 

[LightLV]

So yea, we aren't even CLOSE to knowing even a vague idea of a true tier list. So save the crying for a couple years from now.

1. Quit playing For Glory.

2. Play people who are good

3. Realize how silly you sound in this thread


People have had a pretty accurate finger on character strength as early as 4 months after release, and it has not shifted very much. Like, at all. Quit holding out hope for something that's never going to happen. Smash's character balance is nearly as oppressive as Marvel's.

If you can't bring yourself to believe that, either you're deluding yourself, or you just only play people that are so bad, they allow you to think Samus is a secretly good character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Smash's character balance is nearly as oppressive as Marvel's.

I don't think this is true at all, particularly for Smash 4.

 

[LightLV]

No, that was hyperbole. But at the same time...i'm trying to think of another game where one TYPE of character dominates the top spots in every single entry and i can't.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Yea no, I'm done with this Aaron dude. You're arrogant, condescending way of talking makes me cringe, and I don't want to deal with it.

Moving on with the (mostly) good discussion we're having here.

I'm a game designer and programmer. Been doing it for over 10 years now. Keeping a game with any sort of player vs player combat balanced is absolutely essential. I know this from experience. Tiers exist, good characters exist, bad characters exist, average characters exist. It's all in the game, it's all in the numbers. And it's reeeeaaaally easy to figure out which characters are or aren't good.

So, you all know ZeRo. He's undoubtedly the best Smash 4 player in the U.S. and South America, and probably the world.

Let's think about the following scenario:

Somewhere, there is a Sheik main. A good Sheik main. He wins all the locals, he's well known in his state, and has a good time with his buddies playing smash, enjoying the game, and growing better together. He's probably placed well in some national tournaments. Chances are he's better than most people.

Now, let's say he has to face ZeRo, Sheik v Sheik. Who's going to win? ZeRo, obviously.

Let's say he has to face ZeRo, where ZeRo plays someone like Marth, or Zelda. Chances are, even though ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player around, he's going to lose. He may have put 100's, maybe 1000's of hours into playing a low tier character. Learning it. Perfecting it. Doing everything he can to become the best with that character.

He will still lose to Sheik.

Why?

Simply because Sheik is the better character, and the Sheik player is an excellent Sheik player. He's not the best, he's not well known, but he's damn good. It's not because ZeRo is bad, or that the Sheik player is good. It's because Sheik is the better character.

It's as simple as that. That, unfortunately, is how it works. Unfortunately, no amount of work will win you a national with a low tier character. As I said earlier, it's in the game, it's in the numbers. That's just how it works. I know this from firsthand experience.

However, through the magic of patches, this can be fixed. It will never, ever be perfectly balanced. The only way a game could be perfectly balanced is if the game only had 1 character. However, a game can get really, really close to being perfectly balanced. To the point where any character can win a big national tournament, and more characters are considered viable.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Took a break from the highly opinionated discussion to buy amiibos.

 

[LightLV]

Took a break from the highly opinionated discussion to buy amiibos.

this is such a perfect 'smash community' post that i just have to like it. oh my god.

I'm a game designer and programmer. Been doing it for over 10 years now. Keeping a game with any sort of player vs player combat balanced is absolutely essential. I know this from experience. Tiers exist, good characters exist, bad characters exist, average characters exist. It's all in the game, it's all in the numbers. And it's reeeeaaaally easy to figure out which characters are or aren't good.

I've been derping around this forum so fast, i didn't even realize i recognized your name. It's too bad sfghq asploded.

and yeah, the rest of that post sums this thread up.

 

[J0A0B]

Yea no, I'm done with this Aaron dude. You're arrogant, condescending way of talking makes me cringe, and I don't want to deal with it.

Moving on with the (mostly) good discussion we're having here.

I'm a game designer and programmer. Been doing it for over 10 years now. Keeping a game with any sort of player vs player combat balanced is absolutely essential. I know this from experience. Tiers exist, good characters exist, bad characters exist, average characters exist. It's all in the game, it's all in the numbers. And it's reeeeaaaally easy to figure out which characters are or aren't good.

So, you all know ZeRo. He's undoubtedly the best Smash 4 player in the U.S. and South America, and probably the world.

Let's think about the following scenario:

Somewhere, there is a Sheik main. A good Sheik main. He wins all the locals, he's well known in his state, and has a good time with his buddies playing smash, enjoying the game, and growing better together. He's probably placed well in some national tournaments. Chances are he's better than most people.

Now, let's say he has to face ZeRo, Sheik v Sheik. Who's going to win? ZeRo, obviously.

Let's say he has to face ZeRo, where ZeRo plays someone like Marth, or Zelda. Chances are, even though ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player around, he's going to lose. He may have put 100's, maybe 1000's of hours into playing a low tier character. Learning it. Perfecting it. Doing everything he can to become the best with that character.

He will still lose to Sheik.

Why?

Simply because Sheik is the better character, and the Sheik player is an excellent Sheik player. He's not the best, he's not well known, but he's damn good. It's not because ZeRo is bad, or that the Sheik player is good. It's because Sheik is the better character.

It's as simple as that. That, unfortunately, is how it works. Unfortunately, no amount of work will win you a national with a low tier character. As I said earlier, it's in the game, it's in the numbers. That's just how it works. I know this from firsthand experience.

However, through the magic of patches, this can be fixed. It will never, ever be perfectly balanced. The only way a game could be perfectly balanced is if the game only had 1 character. However, a game can get really, really close to being perfectly balanced. To the point where any character can win a big national tournament, and more characters are considered viable.

As much as I don't like ZeRo, I have to agree with your statement, and I commend your summarization on how the basis of game balance works and should continue to be monitored. If you really are a game programmer, then your statement is even more credible as you seem to know plenty of the hard tasks of fixing a game.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

I've been derping around this forum so fast, i didn't even realize i recognized your name. It's too bad sfghq asploded..

Oh hey! Whaddya know! I didn't realize I recognized your name as well, haha.

As much as I don't like ZeRo, I have to agree with your statement, and I commend your summarization on how the basis of game balance works and should continue to be monitored. If you really are a game programmer, then your statement is even more credible as you seem to know plenty of the hard tasks of fixing a game.

I appreciate the compliment and your understanding. And you can ask LightLV here, I am indeed a game programmer. I've helped him a tiny bit with programming stuff in the past on a different forum.

Edit: Sameless plug here. If you're curious you can check out a small amount of my side projects here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfb7SiX9k7y1LkGyepdEGdg/videos

The current project I'm working on professionally is this: http://bonerattle.tumblr.com/post/121139805155/we-interrupt-your-regularly-scheduled-rick-to

 

[LabrysXII]

Ah cool, I didn't know you were a game programmer, that's pretty cool.

To be more on topic, some of the balancing decisions were strange to say the least. Do they really just use For Glory as a way to judge how characters should be buffed? I was thinking they were looking more at character usage, but I dunno, I'm still relatively new. I still don't understand really what's going on.

I think Falco is better, but the only way I can see him being better is if they buff his lasers significantly. When I think of Falco, I think of his lasers (it's pretty simpleminded of me, yeah). Though I can't tell whether they should listen to feedback or not. I do not want unnecessary nerfs for certain characters unless it's necessary. Some people like to hype up how strong a character is, even though they might not be that strong in reality (in some cases). But at the same time, I still want the worse characters to be buffed. I dunno.

Maybe they could look at tournament results.....? Forgive me if I seem unaware. :/

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Ah cool, I didn't know you were a game programmer, that's pretty cool.

To be more on topic, some of the balancing decisions were strange to say the least. Do they really just use For Glory as a way to judge how characters should be buffed? I was thinking they were looking more at character usage, but I dunno, I'm still relatively new. I still don't understand really what's going on.

I think Falco is better, but the only way I can see him being better is if they buff his lasers significantly. When I think of Falco, I think of his lasers (it's pretty simpleminded of me, yeah). Though I can't tell whether they should listen to feedback or not. I do not want unnecessary nerfs for certain characters unless it's necessary. Some people like to hype up how strong a character is, even though they might not be that strong in reality (in some cases). But at the same time, I still want the worse characters to be buffed. I dunno.

Maybe they could look at tournament results.....? Forgive me if I seem unaware. :/

Well a dilemma with buffing lower tiered characters based on tournament results would be that no one even uses them in tournament. Character adjustments should be taken to the balance patch lab to make sure they're meaningful changes, not some random mumbo jumbo, then released. That's why I feel less frequent but more meaningful patches should be released. But still, Hearing complaints about nerfing a character rather than buffing a character is what drove me to start this thread.

As for appropriate Falco buffs, this is just a possible suggestion, but:

-Decrease Blaster endlag.
-Decrease startup/endlag on Down-air, reduce damage output/knockback.
-Make reflector B-reversible.
-etc.

 

[LightLV]

They pretty much nerfed everything about him that made him a good character in the past. His Dair is one of his least reliable aerials and his blaster sucks as a projectile, in a game where all the good characters can still use them as approaches. Everything else about him is actually very decent, he has some of the best aerials in the game, his ground normals are very functional, he gets confirms off alot of moves and after the recent buff, his off-stage game I think is among the best.

All his specials suck though. If they made his blaster decent again he'd easily be a great character, but I personally think he's on the upper mid spectrum of characters. I guess his reflector is still decent, it's better than Fox's pitiful excuse for a shine.

Oh hey! Whaddya know! I didn't realize I recognized your name as well, haha.

Spoiler

Oh, actually you probably don't. SFGHQ is just about the only place I still go by sereph. I think there's another guy by the name of Light though.

Also...consider adding Android to the list of platforms of your engine, and i'd probably use it. Construct 2's porting is pretty dreadful.

 

[Snackss]

Can you not read or....

Yes, there are bound to be characters that can't win competitively in any major tournament. But guess what?

THE GAME IS 8 ****ING MONTHS OLD.

It is beyond ****ing ******** and arrogant to believe you have figured out which characters are best and which can't be used competitively.

Just sack the **** up man. Your lies are thinly veiled whining. And that's just a simple fact.

Oh man. So Nairo and ZeRo are both "beyond ******** and arrogant" and clearly just haven't practiced enough. Oooookaaayyy. This guy isn't going to last very long.

And Falco needs to not just be buffed, they need to completely rethink him. He wasn't even overpowered in Brawl. I can understand removing the insta-spike, but they took EVERYTHING from him. There's no reason at all to use him over Fox or Mario.

 

[Roukiske]

Smash 4 has had 4 balance patches in 10 months.

This is less than half the rate of every truly successful modern competitive game. The big 5:

• League has had 154 in the last 6 years.
• DotA2 has had 445 in the last 5 years, though they include minor hotfixes in that count. (Or rather, they make no distinction)
• SC2 has had 77 patches in 5 years.
• CS:GO has had 24 patches in 3 years, though also more hotfixes per patch than any other game.
• Hearthstone has had 25 in 2 years, though some are very small.

A robust game requires robust maintenance. This was proven by the success of the original Starcraft, which had 29 patches in an era where patching was very unusual and difficult.

Well hey you're right, but to be fair, those games have a million variables. In those types of games, it is encouraged to use/play different characters, strategies, items, loadouts, builds, decks, etc. In fighting games, more or less you use the same couple of characters you main with a fixed amount of options to work with (though this varies per fighting game). In a game like Sm4sh, there aren't that many options.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Well hey you're right, but to be fair, those games have a million variables. In those types of games, it is encouraged to use/play different characters, strategies, items, loadouts, builds, decks, etc. In fighting games, more or less you use the same couple of characters you main with a fixed amount of options to work with (though this varies per fighting game). In a game like Sm4sh, there aren't that many options.

Thank god. I'm tired of hearing this game be compared to these MMOs where strategies are always prone to change. Most players invest their time with 1-3 characters to play in serious competitions.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

i think alot of the arguments about how low tiers will always lose to high/top tiers forgot to factor in that this is a Macthup-based fighting game where even the best character may have questionable Matchups.

 

[Snackss]

i think alot of the arguments about how low tiers will always lose to high/top tiers forgot to factor in that this is a Macthup-based fighting game where even the best character may have questionable Matchups.

But they don't. Sheik has zero bad matchups, Rosalina has very few (like, Yoshi?) as well as some of the most lopsided positive matchups.

 

[S_B]

This seems like a good time to point out that most changes in every patch have been buffs. People always overreact to nerfs, but for any patch where one character got nerfed probably three others got just as large of changes as buffs.

I'm really in favor of balance patching; not balance patching has predictable and detrimental outcomes. In Melee, it resulted in the bottom half of the cast being completely irrelevant for basically the game's entire lifespan. In Brawl, lots of serious problems (like ICs chaingrabs) just festered, and MK really needed nerfed but never was (unless you played Balanced Brawl, great project that one). Sheik, Rosalina, and Diddy in their original (1.0.0) versions were all probably good enough to seriously damage the game long term; look at how much damage Diddy did since they waited too long to nerf him, and then realize that 1.0.0 Sheik and Rosa were a lot better. All of Olimar, Shulk, Ike, Falco, and Charizard at least (arguably more characters, Kirby and MK definitely on the table) got buffs large enough to significantly change their playability for the better. Abusive gimmicks like G&W + Pika doubles bucket, Olimar pikmin amplification, and Villager under the stage stall have been fixed up. They even fixed that small bug on Wuhu Island and significantly improved Lylat Cruise. Obviously we still don't know everything about the long term balance of this game, but on the surface every patch has made the game as a whole better. Even as a Rosa main, I'll happily give up the easy wins with my previously overpowered character in exchange for playing a better game that will have a longer and healthier life.

Exactly this.

Yes, there's definitely something to be said for allowing the meta to develop to the point where it's clear which characters are overpowered and which aren't, but at the same time, the SSB community is very, VERY good at figuring out the early potential of a character and exploiting it.

Was Diddy's hoo-haa ever NOT going to be amazing? He got a disgusting amount of damage off of a single grab and it was also a great kill setup, too.

While it's true that we may have found counters to Diddy in the long run, those counters wouldn't change the fact that Diddy was invalidating huge portions of the roster, and really, THAT'S what we want to avoid.

Right now, Shiek and Rosa are very likely doing the same thing, as some characters have a matchup against Shiek that's just horrendous. Had this been 1.0 with no balance patches, I suspect we'd never see a number of characters being played in tournaments, ever, yet the buffs they get gives us a reason to go back and take a second look.

Again, I understand that, yeah, metas take time to develop, but we're just exceedingly good at finding the OP nature in any character and running with it.

The balance patches are making SSB4 watchable, IMO, as I was getting sick of watching Diddy dittos every bloody tournament...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

But they don't. Sheik has zero bad matchups, Rosalina has very few (like, Yoshi?) as well as some of the most lopsided positive matchups.

but they do. people have theorize that kirby could be the one to slay sheik, heavy characters will struggle to HELL against sheik to get to her, but once they do, sheik has to play extremely good to not get chewed alive (best rolls in the game, along with OOS Nair helps this problem however). lucario is another that has to be played extremely well, since aura + rage = dying at like 30% or something. honestly, sheik has to really finesse alot of characters using her stellar neutral game since they all do way more damage than her and she can't kill until >100%.

and rosa, according to Dabuz, "She's tall, floaty, and light...bottom line" That's basically it, dying to basically anything at potentially 60-70 and being a huge target with average mobility is a REALLY BIG con though, that's the sole reason she doesn't destroy everyone in the game. Make her faster on the ground or in the air, give her weight, decrease her size, make her fall a little faster, or just make luma spawn a bit earlier and well, you have a character that is at least Sheik tier, but she's kinda not and has bad MUs just because of those cons." he listed ZSS, mario, diddy, sheik,

 

[Snackss]

People "theorizing" that Kirby can beat Sheik really doesn't mean anything. As it is, she has zero bad matchups and many good ones. And Sheik certainly isn't the only character to struggle against heavy characters. The difference is that Sheik always has the option to run away and throw needles, which none of those characters have an answer to. The "Sheik can't KO" argument also always rings hollow and desperate to me. Her forward smash and down smash suck. Her back air can't KO anymore. Okay. But she has a reliable up air, her forward air KO's at 150%, which means characters surviving to 200% or so is a non-issue, Bouncing Fish is strong, versatile, and basically safe off-stage. Her up b is incredibly safe at almost every point of the attack and has a huge explosive hitbox that KO's. That just sounds like she needs to do more damage to get her KO's, which obviously makes sense given her ridiculously safe damage output. To say she "struggles" is kind of insulting to characters who actually do, like Pikachu, Game and Watch, even Greninja, since he lost his up air vacuum and all of his moves are quite slow and unsafe without perfect spacing.

Rosalina being KO'd at 60% is quite an exaggeration aside from what, a Captain Falcon sidesmash at the ledge, which KO's more characters than it doesn't. Rosalina's weaknesses are also mitigated somewhat by her having a strength no one else has, that she's incredibly difficult to approach OR zone due to Luma absorbing hits, and that you can't even pressure her because of Luma recall. She has weaknesses, obviously. But she has strengths that require you to play in a very specific way to have any chance at all against her, which is a big deal and makes for some incredibly lopsided matchups.

The thing with those two is that their "bad" matchups aren't bad in the sense that any character has a bad matchup. They're "bad" in that they aren't able to dominate as so many of their other matchups go. They're not exactly going to push Sheik/ Rosalina players to get a secondary, aside from pre-patch Diddy vs. Rosalina.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

i think alot of the arguments about how low tiers will always lose to high/top tiers forgot to factor in that this is a Macthup-based fighting game where even the best character may have questionable Matchups.

At the end of the day, skill is probably the biggest factor. I've seen MVG Ryo dump on t

But they don't. Sheik has zero bad matchups, Rosalina has very few (like, Yoshi?) as well as some of the most lopsided positive matchups.

As a Sheik main, I feel Pikachu goes even with Sheik. Rosalina & Luma vs Sheik is in Sheik's favor but she is always capable of losing that matchup. In fact, Sheik doesn't completely shut down the top 20 characters in the game. Sure, she has advantages other characters don't, but winning is always in the realm of possibility.

 

[LightLV]

At the end of the day, skill is probably the biggest factor. I've seen MVG Ryo dump on t

As a Sheik main, I feel Pikachu goes even with Sheik. Rosalina & Luma vs Sheik is in Sheik's favor but she is always capable of losing that matchup. In fact, Sheik doesn't completely shut down the top 20 characters in the game. Sure, she has advantages other characters don't, but winning is always in the realm of possibility.

I think people in all types of fighting games need to view characters less as a skill channel, and more as a skill multiplier. A character like Sheik takes a good player and multiplies it's capabilities because Sheik is a character that adds options to the player.

What a character can add to a player is what determines whether it's top tier or not. Diddy allowed you to take a simple grab and turn it into a kill. Mario gives you a fast, efficient tool for every situation. Shiek gives you speed, safeness and the ability to basically run over people.

At some point, even the best player can be diminished by picking a weaker character. That's just the truth of the matter.

Shiek can't kill? Nah. Not only is that an exaggeration, it's not nearly enough of a downside to offset her ridiculous good points. Smash just doesn't provide enough options to make speedy characters truly disadvantaged, which is why they're OP in every game.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Buff Falco more pls. Especially the lasers. Also I agree with you, Smash_Brother, watching Diddy match after match got real boring real quick.

Adressing LightLV...

Spoiler

Oh, actually you probably don't. SFGHQ is just about the only place I still go by sereph. I think there's another guy by the name of Light though.

Also...consider adding Android to the list of platforms of your engine, and i'd probably use it. Construct 2's porting is pretty dreadful.

You're right. There is another person at SFGHQ named Light. And he plays smash. I assumed it was him. Anyways, nice to see you again Serephim, I miss you bringing logic and sense to conversations that usually had none.

Oh, by the way...

Exporting to adroid is a breeze.

 

[Tinkerer]

Smash 4 has had 4 balance patches in 10 months.

This is less than half the rate of every truly successful modern competitive game. The big 5:

• League has had 154 in the last 6 years.
• DotA2 has had 445 in the last 5 years, though they include minor hotfixes in that count. (Or rather, they make no distinction)
• SC2 has had 77 patches in 5 years.
• CS:GO has had 24 patches in 3 years, though also more hotfixes per patch than any other game.
• Hearthstone has had 25 in 2 years, though some are very small.

A robust game requires robust maintenance. This was proven by the success of the original Starcraft, which had 29 patches in an era where patching was very unusual and difficult.

All of those are PC games of completely different genres, and PC stuff is way, way easier to update than anything on consoles - probably better to compare it to something like Street Fighter, where they're also quite sparse with patches. I'm honestly a bit surprised Nintendo is updating Smash at all (balance-wise), because they never ever did that with games in the past.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

@AaronSMASH

No, you are wrong, you just about never see a notable low tier player use an unsafe move because they are not going to just give them a free punish. It's about reducing any and every opening that could possibly be found in your play.You will rarely ever see any Falco use dair on stage, it's simply not safe.
A smart player is going to work with the actual good tools the character has, the reason Shiek or Luigi are considered high tier are because their frame date gives them more options over other characters.
low recovery frames = more options

You are full of crap, anyone who actually knows the character inside and out and plays them as much as some of these Smashers on this website have made huge strides to make their main as viable as possible and you're spitting in their face telling them "you aren't good enough".

 

[A_Kae]

All of those are PC games of completely different genres, and PC stuff is way, way easier to update than anything on consoles - probably better to compare it to something like Street Fighter, where they're also quite sparse with patches. I'm honestly a bit surprised Nintendo is updating Smash at all (balance-wise), because they never ever did that with games in the past.

They did. Melee had balance patches, in case you forgot.

This is is, however, the first smash that they can rebalance and update well.

 

[Raijinken]

Oh man. So Nairo and ZeRo are both "beyond ******** and arrogant" and clearly just haven't practiced enough. Oooookaaayyy. This guy isn't going to last very long.

And Falco needs to not just be buffed, they need to completely rethink him. He wasn't even overpowered in Brawl. I can understand removing the insta-spike, but they took EVERYTHING from him. There's no reason at all to use him over Fox or Mario.

His aerials are actually really good now. He, like several others, suffers heavily from not playing like he did in past games at all. I wouldn't be concerned about maining him any more than maining some other character who isn't Sheik, honestly.

They did. Melee had balance patches, in case you forgot.

This is is, however, the first smash that they can rebalance and update well.

Regional version revisions are an extremely loose sense of "balance patch", but you're not wrong.


Also.... do people forget that game consoles, especially modern ones, are essentially just PCs with controllers that hook up to TVs instead of monitors and sacrifice power or other functions to keep a more consumer-friendly price point? Genre doesn't even matter. If Smash wasn't so iconic and hard to copy successfully (whether because of mechanical intellectual property restrictions or because no amount of fanboy will let you legally use Mario, Sonic, Megaman, PacMan, Ryu, etc. in the same AAA-quality game), I guarantee there would be PC versions undergoing regular balance and content changes/additions. Heck, maybe one made for dedicated PC use would have decent online. But it's a moot point. All that limits patching on home consoles is Nintendo's networking infrastructure, costs, demand, and developer interest (Splatoon gets detailed patch notes. Smash doesn't. It's not Nintendo, it's more likely Nandai/Sakurai).

 

[Nyhte]

I have been saying something similar for a while. For whatever reason, a substantial portion of the community seems resigned to letting patches "balance" the game. But people's opinions on "balance" are dependent on where the metagame is. The game ISN'T EVEN 2/3rds OF A YEAR OLD. There are 140 or so days till sm4sh's first birthday. The metagame is nowhere CLOSE to fully developed. NOBODY is close to reaching the skillcap. Not even ZeRo. Much less multiple people who can safely determine among themselves which characters are "to powerful".

To make a safe judgement call on which characters "need" to be toned down, we need to have people who display a "mastery" of the game. If we don't know what the full potential of each character looks like then how the hell can we know who needs a nerf?

I believe the meta could change substantially over the next few years as people begin to REALLY unlock the potential of each character.

I personally think that the game will change from this footsies heavy chess match and be defined by hyper-aggressive offstage/edge game and much more consistent punishment.

I could be wrong, but even if I am, it is way WAY to early to make any accurate judgements. I love the idea of balance patches, but not until people really get a sustantial grasp of the game.

I'd also like to add that the only reason we see a correlation between frame data and the characters who consistently place highly in tournaments is because everyone is bad! So, naturally, the most forgiving characters will do better!

Competitively, when was a character being unforgiving ever considered a good thing?

You can say that no one is at the skill cap right now, whether you're considering 'realistic human skill cap' or 'definitive, possible, actual skill cap, even if unobtainable' you'd be right at least across the board. Even if some player can play one matchup perfectly, they won't do so consistently, especially vs. all the cast.

However, you're downplaying how quick people can be at taking things apart, especially in the modern era. Good players that have a mind for games can get to a high level really quickly, you don't need to play a game to make an educated game, and you don't need to spend three years to realize every trick about a game.

The methodology for saying what's good in-game and on paper has been established, if people care, as the future progresses, games are only going to be more and more quickly exposed for what they are. The only exception is if game designers create more complex games but that doesn't tend to mesh well with the general population, I don't think it ever will.

You're exaggerating when you say no one is close to the skill cap. Someone can jumping the gun when they say something is undeniably OP, short time given or not, there's a myriad of reasons, (hubris, anger, etc.) but there can also be a lot of truth to what they say. Hypothesizing about what the meta is or how something actually is or will be is something that should be condoned. The statement "yeah but no one is close to the skillcap game hasnt been out long" seems like hyperbole or dismissive denial behavior

 

[LightLV]

Buff Falco more pls. Especially the lasers. Also I agree with you, Smash_Brother, watching Diddy match after match got real boring real quick.

Adressing LightLV...

Spoiler

Well damn. That's some news. How's the performance when ported to android devices?

Me and a buddy were going to develop a few mobile platformers, but i've been sorely disappointed with C2's performance, and am unwilling to downgrade to meet its horsepower limits on mobile. I may throw this his way to see if he's willing to use it.

As for falco, yes, i wish they would buff his ridiculous punish-on-hit laser beams. They're good for a bit of random damage but considering how characters like Luigi/Mario/shiek get spammy projectile approaches AND faceroller frames on their moves, I don't think it would be too unfair

The statement "yeah but no one is close to the skillcap game hasnt been out long" seems like hyperbole or dismissive denial behavior

+1 +10 +1000. People need to consider, had Melee been released in 2014-2015, it would have had its meta figured out in a fraction of the time it actually took when it was released.

Improvement (deeper improvement) in fighting games is almost entirely social, and this is the most social gaming has ever been in its life. The collective knowledge of the playerbase grows much faster now than it did before, we have people posting combo compilations from arcades for games in a different language that havent even been released on console outside of the country yet. People can learn how to use characters in games they havent even played yet.

The notion that low tiers are only low because nobody is working on them is just absurd. Of course people are working on them, they have something to prove. They just aren't finding anything because nothing is there. (hence, "low tier".)

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I hope that Samurai finally does one of these two things with Falco's lasers.
1. Make the lasers faster along with reduced endlag (preferred)
or
2. Keep the endlag but make the laser do more hitstun or raw damage and possibly a bit of knockback like Pit's arrows.

Both of these are simple fixes and gives them more use and incentive to use the lasers instead of having a mostly useless projectile only used across the stage.

 

[Raijinken]

Spoiler

Well damn. That's some news. How's the performance when ported to android devices?

Me and a buddy were going to develop a few mobile platformers, but i've been sorely disappointed with C2's performance, and am unwilling to downgrade to meet its horsepower limits on mobile. I may throw this his way to see if he's willing to use it.

As for falco, yes, i wish they would buff his ridiculous punish-on-hit laser beams. They're good for a bit of random damage but considering how characters like Luigi/Mario/shiek get spammy projectile approaches AND faceroller frames on their moves, I don't think it would be too unfair



+1 +10 +1000. People need to consider, had Melee been released in 2014-2015, it would have had its meta figured out in a fraction of the time it actually took when it was released.

Improvement (deeper improvement) in fighting games is almost entirely social, and this is the most social gaming has ever been in its life. The collective knowledge of the playerbase grows much faster now than it did before, we have people posting combo compilations from arcades for games in a different language that havent even been released on console outside of the country yet. People can learn how to use characters in games they havent even played yet.

The notion that low tiers are only low because nobody is working on them is just absurd. Of course people are working on them, they have something to prove. They just aren't finding anything because nothing is there. (hence, "low tier".)

But the way this guy's reasoning works, he could go to his back yard and find diamonds if he looks hard enough! Surely they must be evenly distributed.

I hope that Samurai finally does one of these two things with Falco's lasers.
1. Make the lasers faster along with reduced endlag (preferred)
or
2. Keep the endlag but make the laser do more hitstun or raw damage and possibly a bit of knockback like Pit's arrows.

Both of these are simple fixes and gives them more use and incentive to use the lasers instead of having a mostly useless projectile only used across the stage.

I think I could support the knockback or something, but it's worth remembering that the better defensive/ranged options are, the more prevalent that playstyle becomes. I don't mind it, but returning Fox/Falco lasers to anything resembling a past game gives them very little reason to approach.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I think it's a somewhat good balance for Falco because he doesn't really have the best approach options to make a move. I'd say most times a cautious Falco staying back and waiting for the approach is the way he needs to be played.

Then again I'm sort of just throwing out ideas on what could make him better, but you're right, there needs to be a balance.

 

[Morbi]

I agree to a certain extent; however, at the same time, balance patches are vital to the longevity of titles. Obviously not necessary, but it certainly helps to deliver a more diverse meta-game and retain player/spectator intrigue. I was one of those Falco mains holding out for a patch to solve my problems for me. It never came, so I switched characters. Sometimes you just have to let time mature the players.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

People "theorizing" that Kirby can beat Sheik really doesn't mean anything. As it is, she has zero bad matchups and many good ones. And Sheik certainly isn't the only character to struggle against heavy characters. The difference is that Sheik always has the option to run away and throw needles, which none of those characters have an answer to. The "Sheik can't KO" argument also always rings hollow and desperate to me. Her forward smash and down smash suck. Her back air can't KO anymore. Okay. But she has a reliable up air, her forward air KO's at 150%, which means characters surviving to 200% or so is a non-issue, Bouncing Fish is strong, versatile, and basically safe off-stage. Her up b is incredibly safe at almost every point of the attack and has a huge explosive hitbox that KO's. That just sounds like she needs to do more damage to get her KO's, which obviously makes sense given her ridiculously safe damage output. To say she "struggles" is kind of insulting to characters who actually do, like Pikachu, Game and Watch, even Greninja, since he lost his up air vacuum and all of his moves are quite slow and unsafe without perfect spacing.

Rosalina being KO'd at 60% is quite an exaggeration aside from what, a Captain Falcon sidesmash at the ledge, which KO's more characters than it doesn't. Rosalina's weaknesses are also mitigated somewhat by her having a strength no one else has, that she's incredibly difficult to approach OR zone due to Luma absorbing hits, and that you can't even pressure her because of Luma recall. She has weaknesses, obviously. But she has strengths that require you to play in a very specific way to have any chance at all against her, which is a big deal and makes for some incredibly lopsided matchups.

The thing with those two is that their "bad" matchups aren't bad in the sense that any character has a bad matchup. They're "bad" in that they aren't able to dominate as so many of their other matchups go. They're not exactly going to push Sheik/ Rosalina players to get a secondary, aside from pre-patch Diddy vs. Rosalina.

bolded, because i want to really discuss this.

People "theorizing" that Kirby can beat Sheik really doesn't mean anything. As it is, she has zero bad matchups and many good ones.

Kirby's CQC game is very potent, with fsmash being a strong, quick punish, his Utilt leading to juggles, Dtilt with shield pokes and trips, Ftilt with pokes and tilts, and his grab combos. all of this deals more damage than sheik can do to him, since she has horrible damage output (which can lead to people trying to look for a trade against sheik more often, since they will be on the winning side of the trade), and she can't needle him, since kirby's crouch is the best in the game along with jigglypuff and others. but, once he gets needles, he gets 1.0 from what i've heard from other players, which means better needles than sheik. that means, he can play sheik's own game better once he absorbs her.
if this doesn't even hold true, it highlights a sign that legit counterplay is being found against sheik, or better, counterpicks.

The difference is that Sheik always has the option to run away and throw needles

hmmm.
sheik's long ranged options are, needles, bouncing fish, and grenades.

Needles- if you get hit, it's 10% and it doesn't push you back far at all. not to mention sheik has to charge them to produce the same effect of pushing you back any real distance. a single needle is just disruption and you can get closer to her even quicker. needles can only go 2 angles. horizontal and diagonal. horizontal isn't very effective at true camping as, it gets beaten by shields, jumps, getting hit trying throw them out, and you can beat needles by getting hit and keep running. sheik isn't toon link, nor is she Duck Hunt, Olimar, etc...

Bouncing fish- if i bait you to throw that move out, you're dead. if you hit my shield, big woop, i just close in on you and make you do something. if you hit me with the move raw. i better be at a high %, offstage, or luigi, because i'm coming for you.

Grenades- take setup time, doesn't active instantly (both pro and con), and sucks you in. Built to be a trap move instead of zoning tool.

Three options that can be dealt with by any character in the game at a distance. Close combat is more troublesome however as sheik has the best defense in the game. But, once you corner her, she has to conform to your game as she'll have limited options once distance space is correctly utilized

 

[Pyr]

If there was any more analysis of the character in that post, Smashboards would be a Kirby brand vacuum cleaner. Everything works in a vacuum when you don't establish context.

 

[Raijinken]

bolded, because i want to really discuss this.
Kirby's CQC game is very potent, with fsmash being a strong, quick punish, his Utilt leading to juggles, Dtilt with shield pokes and trips, Ftilt with pokes and tilts, and his grab combos. all of this deals more damage than sheik can do to him, since she has horrible damage output (which can lead to people trying to look for a trade against sheik more often, since they will be on the winning side of the trade), and she can't needle him, since kirby's crouch is the best in the game along with jigglypuff and others. but, once he gets needles, he gets 1.0 from what i've heard from other players, which means better needles than sheik. that means, he can play sheik's own game better once he absorbs her.
if this doesn't even hold true, it highlights a sign that legit counterplay is being found against sheik, or better, counterpicks.

hmmm.
sheik's long ranged options are, needles, bouncing fish, and grenades.

Needles- if you get hit, it's 10% and it doesn't push you back far at all. not to mention sheik has to charge them to produce the same effect of pushing you back any real distance. a single needle is just disruption and you can get closer to her even quicker. needles can only go 2 angles. horizontal and diagonal. horizontal isn't very effective at true camping as, it gets beaten by shields, jumps, getting hit trying throw them out, and you can beat needles by getting hit and keep running. sheik isn't toon link, nor is she Duck Hunt, Olimar, etc...

Bouncing fish- if i bait you to throw that move out, you're dead. if you hit my shield, big woop, i just close in on you and make you do something. if you hit me with the move raw. i better be at a high %, offstage, or luigi, because i'm coming for you.

Grenades- take setup time, doesn't active instantly (both pro and con), and sucks you in. Built to be a trap move instead of zoning tool.

Three options that can be dealt with by any character in the game at a distance. Close combat is more troublesome however as sheik has the best defense in the game. But, once you corner her, she has to conform to your game as she'll have limited options once distance space is correctly utilized

All things considered, Bouncing Fish is really safe for its versatility.
Additionally, Kirby is made of floaty paper while Sheik is cardboard. Sheik's kill options are not so limited as to make it hard to kill Kirby.
Kirby has even FEWER ranged options than Sheik, and even on a condensed stage like Battlefield, can be kited basically indefinitely once he loses a stock advantage.

I mean, I love Kirby, and I don't think he's bad. But I don't think he has what it takes to be a counterpick against Sheik. Largely because Sheik can run circles around him and doesn't really have to trade.