Balance patches are spoiling us

[Pyr]

...everything?
no point in arguing it because people who dont view it as a glitch/exploit (same damn thing) never understand that when your character is behaving oddly when you do something its not suppose to be that way.

It does have an animation. It's literally Jump-Squat+Air Dodge+Landing.

And a bug =/= an exploit by definition. A bug is something not intended at all. An exploit is something, or somethings, that were intended to be used, but not in they way they are. Wavedashing is an exploit of game physics/mechanics. It was supposed to be that way.

 

[jet56]

techs and game exploits are not bugs. just the simple of it. just because it wasn't intended or designed by the games creators doesn't mean its automatically categorized as a bug or glitch. take perfect pivoting for example. its not making your character behave oddly, just a quick and effective spacing tool that makes your character dash then turn around real fast. the creators obviously didn't intend to create that or expected players to find it, but they did. a bug is something like...when "wectoring" was a thing in the early days of the game, where wario would exploit the games mechanics with vectoring by dramatically shifting his momentum in the other direction.

 

[1FC0]

...everything?
no point in arguing it because people who dont view it as a glitch/exploit (same damn thing) never understand that when your character is behaving oddly when you do something its not suppose to be that way.

I play games for fun and when an exploit or glitch makes it more fun then I use it.

Besides that MR G&W behaves odd in all his animations so according to your logic he should be banned.

 

[LightLV]

...everything?
no point in arguing it because people who dont view it as a glitch/exploit (same damn thing) never understand that when your character is behaving oddly when you do something its not suppose to be that way.

Oh whatever. By that logic, I think it's a glitch/exploit that shiek can do whatever the hell she wants immediately after landing any aerial that isn't Dair. Because when I do it with Falco, or Ike, that doesn't happen. And Wavedashing is nothing compared to the ACTUAL glitches that became staple in the Brawl meta, the game everyone who hates Melee seems to adore.

Some people just need to call it what it is, and quit beating around the bush. You don't like it because you don't think you should have to learn it to play, and so you envy players that have. Which is like saying you don't think you should have to learn Plinking or 1-frame links in SF.

I'm convinced, the only reason the smash community views Melee's ATs like that is because they don't know any better.

 

[jet56]

Sad to say but this is true. Most of the playerbase for smash is casual with an exception to melee. So most Of them play well and then try to enter the competitave scene only to find out they suck, because there is all these ATs they have to master, and more. So they think it's stupid and want it patched out. And I get it , cause we all have been there to an extent. but the parlance patches are for us, the competitave players, because most casuals don't even notice the minor changes that are made. And patches are for character balancing and glitches, that's all. Sakurai won't start taking out ATs, because he would be ostrizising the entire competitave playerbase. He tried that with brawl and it didn't work, but instead made a split between casuals and competitave players.

 

[1FC0]

Sad to say but this is true. Most of the playerbase for smash is casual with an exception to melee. So most Of them play well and then try to enter the competitave scene only to find out they suck, because there is all these ATs they have to master, and more. So they think it's stupid and want it patched out. And I get it , cause we all have been there to an extent. but the parlance patches are for us, the competitave players, because most casuals don't even notice the minor changes that are made. And patches are for character balancing and glitches, that's all. Sakurai won't start taking out ATs, because he would be ostrizising the entire competitave playerbase. He tried that with brawl and it didn't work, but instead made a split between casuals and competitave players.

Yeah mixing casual and competitive players will never work in any game. If the skill ceiling is low then competitive players will get bored and if the skill ceiling is high then casual will get owned by competitive players and get annoyed.

Even so a game can still be suitable for both casuals and competitive players as long as each match is either casual vs casual or competitive vs competitive. Melee is probably the best example in the Smash series of this. When I played Melee I was a huge scrub but I enjoyed it because I played against other scrubs. So I know that Melee is well suited for noobs. And obviously we all know that Melee is a good game for competitive play.

So I am glad that Sakurai seems to have given up on mixing the 2 player bases and instead tried making the game for both competitive and casual players by seperating them.

 

[LightLV]

Sad to say but this is true. Most of the playerbase for smash is casual with an exception to melee. So most Of them play well and then try to enter the competitave scene only to find out they suck, because there is all these ATs they have to master, and more. So they think it's stupid and want it patched out. And I get it , cause we all have been there to an extent. but the parlance patches are for us, the competitave players, because most casuals don't even notice the minor changes that are made. And patches are for character balancing and glitches, that's all. Sakurai won't start taking out ATs, because he would be ostrizising the entire competitave playerbase. He tried that with brawl and it didn't work, but instead made a split between casuals and competitave players.

Yeah this is true.

I almost completely disagree with the direction Sakurai has taken smash bros over the years. He seems consumed by this idea that "casual" and "hardcore" smash players are like oil and water, when in reality, the very nature of smash bros allows you more ways to make the difference irrelevant than in any other game. The idea that smash had to have been fundementally nerfed and given counter-competitive mechanics only because of what the top 2% of Melee players were able to accomplish is just ********.

Yeah sure, someone who literally plays for a living is going to faceroll on a casual player, and someone who strives to play competitively is going to do better than someone who isn't. You don't have to run away from making the game solid just to save face of people who honestly couldn't care less. That's the part about smash that makes no sense to me.

When I played Melee I was a huge scrub but I enjoyed it because I played against other scrubs. So I know that Melee is well suited for noobs. And obviously we all know that Melee is a good game for competitive play.

So I am glad that Sakurai seems to have given up on mixing the 2 player bases and instead tried making the game for both competitive and casual players by seperating them.

So was I, and so were most people who played. People say Melee was too hard, but i dont ever remember my no-videogame-playing siblings ever complaining. When they wanted to play, we just turned on FFA, threw on some handicaps, occasionally a few items and kept it moving. Everyone was happy.


I just feel like Sakurai is trying to strike the balance starting from the wrong direction. Instead of trying to give casuals a scaling, controllable handicap advantage that lowers the gap between them and the better player, Sakurai has chosen instead to just remove the possibility of there ever even being a gap.

 

[jet56]

i think that there is already a way to keep the gameplay fun for casuals and competitive players and a way for them to play together. turn on items.and thats it youre done.

 

[V4n1sh]

i think that there is already a way to keep the gameplay fun for casuals and competitive players and a way for them to play together. turn on items.and thats it youre done.

The problem for competitive is that the items can make some really unfair kills,which is why they were banned in the first place.Some examples are the Bomb-Omb,Blast Box,Master Ball pokemon,Drill,Dragoon and Daybreak.Some still make it really unfair and one sided such as Timer and Super Star.In general the items really make the game unbalanced

(Note is that I'm on the road right now and using my 3ds for item names.)

 

[jet56]

but if you are playing casually and for fun, you wouldn't care. and a competitive player who was playing casually and for fun wouldn't care either. and its because it takes no skill to use items that both fanbases can play with each other without any hate at all, since casuals won't feel hopelessly out classed, and items help bridge the skill gap.

 

[ARGHETH]

but if you are playing casually and for fun, you wouldn't care. and a competitive player who was playing casually and for fun wouldn't care either. and its because it takes no skill to use items that both fanbases can play with each other without any hate at all, since casuals won't feel hopelessly out classed, and items help bridge the skill gap.

The problem is, we are talking about competitive play. There, players care very much about unfair advantages, which items like the ones described above provide. They likely won't "bridge the skill gap" because they won't help the casuals be better players, they'll just make the whole thing up to chance.

 

[jet56]

The problem is, we are talking about competitive play. There, players care very much about unfair advantages, which items like the ones described above provide. They likely won't "bridge the skill gap" because they won't help the casuals be better players, they'll just make the whole thing up to chance.

i know this. the whole point of items is so everyone can play casually together. of course its not in competitive play, since its unfair for competitive players. i was saying that casuals and competitive players can still have a fun time with each other because items enable anyone to win. besides, casuals always play with items on (more or less). the only difficult transition is when casuals try to go competitive. but casuals can play fine with casuals, and competitive players can player with other hardcore players, or with casuals for fun, if they can live with items. thats all i was trying to say. i guess what im trying to say is that if you are the competitive player, all you have to do is not really care about whether its unfair or about winning, and you can play with casuals just fine.

 

[ARGHETH]

And you're saying this on the Competitive Discussion Forum...why?

 

[John12346]

I assumed he was making a precedent for the devs to keep the game as competitive as possible in a 1v1 format, since w/e mode casuals feel like playing bridges the skill gap to some extent.

 

[jet56]

I assumed he was making a precedent for the devs to keep the game as competitive as possible in a 1v1 format, since w/e mode casuals feel like playing bridges the skill gap to some extent.

Wow... That's to the letter.

 

[Dsull]

The balance between casual and competitive is always going to be an issue. imo the main reason is people who should be in the competitive bracket decide to avoid it because they like to utterly stomp people, not get a challenging fight. Unless you can find some way to keep them from doing that (rankings do not work, they can be spoofed in every game that tries or intentionally lowered) you cant balance the game between those two player types.

I think sm4sh is the best of the 4 games to bridge this gap though. Someone who doesnt do the super-high-tech movements can play and still beat the people that do if they try hard enough. The amount of things i would like to see changed in sm4sh is almost nonexistent compared to previous ones.

 

[AaronSMASH]

I was exaggerating a bit when I said it was impossible. It is possible, but extremely unlikely. It also makes no sense to invest a ton of time into a mediocre character, when you do better as a better character

Remember when people in this thread said R.O.B. was terrible and could never beat a good sheik? Someone should ask 8bitman if he thinks he wasted the time he devoted to playing ROB. He might show you a few thousand extra reasons to disagree with that sentiment in his bank account.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm going to step out on a limb here and assert that this thread has run it's dubious-to-begin with course. As an overall discussion, it has been outside the standards of this sub-forum for a few pages now.

If anyone wants to further debate the direction of Smash or derive developer intention from tea leaves, there are other places better suited to that. I would provide helpful links, but I'm going to be even more helpful and rather suggest reconsidering that use of time.