Avoiding set updates + optional stage-DL idea, read this; its important

[Veril]

EDIT: That this cuts down on the download size... is really good apparently.


7.03 was released. I didn't actually know this happened until the next day. This wouldn't really be an issue if the set had everything on the checklist. It didn't. What matters at this point, is figuring out the minimal (and that means like, correcting glaring problems or very simple mistakes) necessary changes to this set and a protocol for future updates.

First off, the download has to be fixed ASAP! Link's fair MUST have the 35° angle. That particular mistake (if true)... omg, I don't even know how to express how bad it is than an extremely unpopular change with the active players here was also ****ED UP ITSELF! I need it confirmed that what Viet said about the 361 angle still being in is true. If that is the case plz dear sweet god Neko, Bio, Yeroc, someone get that **** fixed as fast as is possible.

Taking down DP+ is a non-issue. It won't be any less banned lol. PSI+ is a problem and has to be fixed.

Idea...

I know that there will be cool new stages in the future. What I'd like to do is make an experimental stage download separate from the tournament download. Stages, unlike characters, don't all have to be tournament viable. I personally would like to see as many legal stages as possible, but I also want to know that they have something to really contribute to the roster. I think that Summit+ de-iced is a completely legitimate stage, saying there are too many neutrals isn't anything other than opinion IF the stages genuinely have something different to offer. Summit+ with Ice is, beyond reasonable argument, an experimental stage.

CP experimental is also a good way to cut down size on the official download. Now, here's the incentive to the stage hackers: Experimental Stages (I could even call it the CP/Ban stage package ;p) could be updated, added to, and it wouldn't touch the main DL package (which will remain unchanged). The main DL should represent what is recommended for every tournament. Obviously a stage list can be as small as a TO wants, but the hacked-stages within the set should all have no mechanical cause for a ban. The only reason would be for a smaller stagelist, which again, is up to the TO.

Making updates for any reason at this point is anathema from the PR perspective. You ALL know this. I know it... really well at this point. Updating an optional download on the other hand, is fine. So this is a way for all the stage hacking to coexist with a stable set. After the 6 months we can debate adding the stages to the set download. New SSS would be necessary also.

Think about it... it is a way out of this mess, and it makes public testing of new stages somewhat more likely imo. Some good examples of stages that wouldn't be tournament legal often (or exist, or would simply really benefit from being able to be updated) that would benefit from this are: Skyworld (when the non-hitlag variant appears it would be nice to have that), Temple+ (so new... looks good but idk), NPC+ (banned currently, slope needs work, stage needs to be a lot smaller, lots of issues...), PSI+ (new windmill, and rock formation still blows, I really wanted to give it new boundaries >.< but w/e too late now I guess!), PTAD+ (cars... its so lonely now... also the wall), Castle Siege pt. III ("dreams")... you get the idea.


We also need to get a new pal version... PAL coders, where you at >.<?

I really don't want to have to update the set again. PLZ let this be an acceptable solution OMG-f***ing-PLZ

if you actually read all of that... props.

 

[goodoldganon]

Personally I never really understood the hub-ub over this set and what Guru was talking about that people were pissed. We have a total of ONE character bug, Link's F-air being Sakurai still. Characters matter and though the stage release was a little sloppy, I can tell you everyone in Toledo was more happy the **** characters were ready.

That being said, if people are worried about the set then this idea is the best possible way to go about testing stages. I fully support a download set with test pacs for stages and one we support

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'm interested to see how this will work out. i have several stages in production now that are of questionable legality (lol i can't remember where i heard this, but it still makes me smile...) and this seems like a good way to get them in a set to at least be tested.

 

[Isatis]

- New Link Fair is up for download, angle is changed from 361 to 35.

- DP+ is taken out of the updater... where is PSI+? I'll put it up when I get a download link

- We have available PAL coders?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Personally I never really understood the hub-ub over this set and what Guru was talking about that people were pissed. We have a total of ONE character bug, Link's F-air being Sakurai still. Characters matter and though the stage release was a little sloppy, I can tell you everyone in Toledo was more happy the **** characters were ready.

There was quite the collective laugh at the WBRs expense in the super DSO2 thread in which Guru was active in. I'll link to it in just a moment.

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10129235#post10129235

continues on to the page after.

 

[goodoldganon]

I guess considering how long it has taken to finish Brawl+ I can see why someone would prod at an incomplete Gold set. Oh well. It sounds like Bionic got two of the major things.

 

[GuruKid]

It not only happened in the DSO thread either.

Players unfamiliar with the B+ scene have IM'd me saying they're confused and/or annoyed by these constant changes which are presumed to be the "final release" of the game.

It doesn't matter that the only changes are so-called "minor" changes, the point is that potential players are led to believe that what they're playing is the final set, only to discover that the game is changed the week after. That in turn hurts their impression of not only the WBR, but the game itself. They figure if the WBR couldn't keep their word on keeping the past codesets as-is, what's to prevent the BR from making changes again?

It may seem silly to some of you, but constant change (big or small), inflicts a negative impression on players who just want to play a stable game.

We've set a bad example with releasing 3 "final sets" already (4 if you count the supposed-to-be-stable 5.0 codeset). Please make sure we have everything complete before we release this codeset, because I can't even defend our actions anymore.




Regarding frozen Castle Siege... we honestly didn't need another neutral, but whatevs.

 

[FrozenHobo]

^^
I 100% agree with this. we've already gone way beyond the number of updates for 7.0 than was necissary (7.0.2 should have been the last version). this lack of organization within the wbr reflects negatively on all of us. if we do truly intend on releasing this "final" codeset, then this has to be it. no more changes for 6 months.


this being said, i know that yeroc has dropped off the radar following this accident, but if he's reading this, i want you to know that we've gotten past it and still appreciate everything you've done for the wbr. it was oe mistake, and we can forgive you for it (just make sure you talk with veril next time ).

 

[MK26]

well...this is a good idea

and remember people, we've got power at our fingertips...it doesnt necessarily have to be "vSiege vs. frozen Siege"



and on an unrelated point, wasnt Yes in the wbr at one point? wtf happened to him

and on a note related to my first note, unless i say otherwise i cosign to everything froho says

 

[Veril]

what's to prevent the BR from making changes again?

Oh Gawd, that's an easy one. I got dis... Assuming that changes actually have to be approved by me.

Real changes require coders willing to actually work on and upload them. This is A LOT of work. Cape left, and the only way he'd ever do coding for us is if Yeroc or I asked him to. Blind and I are not doing any more coding for a long f***ing time. Shanus is working on P:M. The stage hackers can update their stuff without touching the main DL (as per my idea). Yeroc has done his share ten times over.

You think I would want to go through this crap again. No, absolutely not. If you think I like dealing with the backlash that comes from even s*** as minor as adding a new SSS and small bug fixes, you are absolutely wrong. I hate it. Passionately. Like I hate arguing with Inui. That much... When I go to DSO2 I am going to have words with a lot of people obv. Every change is a burden for me, even moreso than for anyone else in this group.

The way to continue to refine certain aspects that won't require actual updates of the set, of course, has already been detailed in the OP.

So, I assume most of you lazy f***ers didn't actually read my thread with the stage package idea. Do that. Its an amazing idea. If you want to argue against it than you will get *****, cause each time I type up a wall of text to counter some one sentence bulls***....

anyway

Stages to include as optional DL separate from the tournament standard package: All these would fall into the CP/Ban category, and individual TO's could pick and choose which, if any, to include in their roster. It would cut down on the size of the main DL, which is massively desirable.

People who have the current DL DO NOT have to update. This is a way to split the downloads into a stable set with no experimental stages and a separate optional download for experimental stages. We could also have downloadable extras like the "skill trainers" I've been hearing about, training mode related stuff, w.e.

Its a way to keep improving an area that is not finished (the stages) without compromising the stability of the tournament standard.

PSI
Temple
Summit+ variants
PTAD
Jungle Japes
NPC
Spear Pillar
Skyworld
YI:M

 

[VietGeek]

Well if you want to know I've read it over a few times throughout the week. It's a fine idea, not to mention has the added perk of increasing the game/set's lifespan by giving players something new to do (should they choose) every now and then. I don't see anything wrong about it.

Haters gonna hate?

But that's pretty obv imo...right?

<_<

@Bio & Veril about Link fair: I downloaded the newest (?) Link .pac yesterday and the angle placements work (obv), but is the first hit suppose to have 35 degrees as well? Or does it retain special angle 361? Currently both slashes' hitboxes have angle 35.

 

[MK26]

afaik not having the 361 angle in the original 7.0.3 was a mistake

 

[Veril]

Both hits at 35° is good.

Anyway, I think its time to decide which stages to move into this DL group. Rumble Falls+, and Luigi's Mansion should remain in the main DL. They are pretty much flawless. Picto+ could go either way. Any changes to the starters should stay in the main DL obv.

There are a lot of stages that I'd put in the Expansion Pack:

Temple+: Too big. Experimental.
NPC+: more problems than I care to list.
Summit+: legitimately could benefit from being updated periodically, and definitely experimental.
PSI+: Needs work still with the rock transformation (waaay too campy), the windmill, the bounds, etc.
JJ+: experimental, obv. Needs weaker klaptrap.
PTAD+: someday we'll get reasonable cars...
YI-M: not a viable stage so no reason to include it in the main DL.
DP+: needs work, needs to have the bulborb for lulzy friendlies ;p
Skyworld: hitlag exploits need to go away before this is legal at all.
Spear Pillar: you shouldn't even try to make this stage legal imo. But you can try...

 

[FrozenHobo]

Temple+: Too big. Experimental.
NPC+: more problems than I care to list.
PSI+: Needs work still with the rock transformation (waaay too campy), the windmill, the bounds, etc.
JJ+: experimental, obv. Needs weaker klaptrap.
PTAD+: someday we'll get reasonable cars...
YI-M: not a viable stage so no reason to include it in the main DL.

agreed on all accounts.

Summit+: legitimately could benefit from being updated periodically, and definitely experimental.

because dant has gotten bored and apparently left us all high and dry, i'll take it upon myself to look at adjusting the sliding aspects (however, if anyone would like to help, i'm not going to stop you >_> ).

DP+: needs work, needs to have the bulborb for lulzy friendlies ;p
Skyworld: hitlag exploits need to go away before this is legal at all.
Spear Pillar: you shouldn't even try to make this stage legal imo. But you can try...

after the **** i went through to get bulborb to not eat people you better get used to the idea. the only thing i have left for DP+ before i'll consider it ready for testing is adjusting the waterfall momentum (i think i know what to do...)

On skyworld, i and several other feel that the hitlag exploit is part of what makes it a good CP. if you take that away then it offers another layout similar to BF, but with a moving plat/oddly shaped base. it would suffer from the same complaints of summit+ w/out ice: bland and borderline neutral. i know that a lot of dumb things can be done with the hitlag, but i don't believe any of it is game breaking (correct me if i'm wrong); plus, the added lag after attacks adds to its CP status.

Spear Pillar... give me 48 hours and a txt of this latest build.

 

[GHNeko]

Skyworld: hitlag exploits need to go away before this is legal at all.

Hitlag exploits are part of what make it a CP and can be used intelligently and strategically by the whole roster. It's not even gimmicky. Smart use helps, bad usage (spam) hurts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this aspect of Skyworld.

 

[Plum]

So there's a main download with basically the absolute legit stages and then a secondary download of other stages that are experimental?
Is that the idea?

Sounds fine to me.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Well you know the saying no news is good news? This is pretty much applicable here, but as provoked by Veril, I stand before you to say I have absolutely no problem with that set up if my understanding is the same as Plum's.