"Avalanche": Cloud combo, moveset, and tech sharing thread

[Didier337]

Cloud struggle on killing opponents at high percents. Lack of grab combos and kill throw forces us to either make a read or play defensive until we find a punish.

 

[Eureka]

Cloud struggle on killing opponents at high percents. Lack of grab combos and kill throw forces us to either make a read or play defensive until we find a punish.

I would agree with you, except for a few things. For one, Limit Breaks, especially LB Cross Slash. LB Cross Slash is one of if not the best kill move in the game. It's insanely fast, has tremendous knockback kills both horizontally and vertically, has invincibility on startup, and is completely safe on shield. When that Limit gauge is filled it's like you have a gun cocked to their head. They can't afford to mess up or they will die. The other limit breaks are powerful too, LB Blade Beam is basically a ranged, transcendent smash attack, LB Climbhazzard kills out of shield, and Finishing Touch can net some cheesy early kills.

The other, more basic reason is that Cloud IS a defensive character, so playing defensive really isn't a problem, especially when he can kill at high percents from neutral with bair, dair, or f tilt, not to mention his smash attacks. Saying Cloud struggles killing at high percents because he doesn't get a kill from a throw is like saying that Ike struggles at killing at high percents.

EDIT: So guys, is it possible to jump or use an aerial after getting hit by Clouds nair before hitting the ground? Because if not we may have a tech setup from one of our most used moves in neutral that leads into Finishing Touch. And that would be pretty cool. Oh also, don't know if it's been mentioned already but nair, autocanceled or connected just before landing, reliably combos into Limit Break Cross Slash.

 

[Nahvi]

Here a kill setup that works for every character. Already tested with a second player mashing airdodge/getup once the combo started and could not scape.

 

[Eureka]

Here a kill setup that works for every character. Already tested with a second player mashing airdodge/getup once the combo started and could not scape.

Why don't you just finishing touch after the up air and skip the whole footstool shinanigans? The only time I could see them being necessary is if you were at a very specific percent range where you could land the footstool but couldn't kill with Finishing Touch afterwards and then you don't need to deal with guessing which way they'll go after the footstool. Also have you tested if someone could just DI the dair out and dodge the finishing touch?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Why don't you just finishing touch after the up air and skip the whole footstool shinanigans? The only time I could see them being necessary is if you were at a very specific percent range where you could land the footstool but couldn't kill with Finishing Touch afterwards. Also have you tested if someone could just DI the dair out and dodge the finishing touch?

I don't think FT would've killed Sheik after that Uair, her % would've been too low. This vid shows you how to kill as early as 28% with a simple read into untechable footstool. Beautiful.

 

[Eureka]

I don't think FT would've killed Sheik after that Uair, her % would've been too low. This vid shows you how to kill as early as 28% with a simple read into untechable footstool. Beautiful.

Up air into Finishing Touch kills Shiek on 3DS FD, which has bigger blast zones (can't test on the Wii U version at the moment) at 34%. Even not taking the blast zones into account that's a whopping 6% range where the footstool into dair is necessary. You also don't need to deal with predicting where they will go after the footstool and especially don't have to deal with rage screwing over this setup. I'm not saying it's useless, but the times where doing that sequence is necessary are very, very rare.

 

[Nahvi]

Also have you tested if someone could just DI the dair out and dodge the finishing touch?

I didn't, but I think that 1- Finishing Touch's hitbox is big enough, and 2- the hitstun of Dair lasts long enough for it to be true.

Up air into Finishing Touch kills Shiek on 3DS FD, which has bigger blast zones (can't test on the Wii U version at the moment) at 34%. Even not taking the blast zones into account that's a whopping 6% range where the footstool into dair is necessary. You also don't need to deal with predicting where they will go after the footstool and especially don't have to deal with rage screwing over this setup. I'm not saying it's useless, but the times where doing that sequence is necessary are very, very rare.

Yeah, is true that it is really situational in that case. But what I wanted to demonstrate is that there is an option after footstool at almost any percentage that connects even before the enemy can get up (although dependent on reaction time/reads) and leads into a kill.
Another example I have seen of footstool usage is Utilt>FH Nair>Footstool at around 50-55%. I consider the buffered AC FF Dair after the footstool the best option after it. Although not a guaranteed follow up, it true comboes into a kill move if connects and you have no disadvantage when it does not.

 

[Saltyman]

The whole first part of this video is longer combos. It's a bit unfortunate most of Cloud's "true" combos are easy to DI.. but at least up air is consistently amazing Also a ton of limit break side b set-ups, personally I think that move kind of saves Cloud. All his other early KO options are too easy to avoid or slow to come out..​

 

[Rocxidi]

If you have alternate smash attack on (AB), you can press both buttons during Limit Charge to cancel into a Smash Attack. To do this, press and hold B and then press A. If you can do this really fast, your Smash Attack will come out immediately. Hold Up or Down for the respective smashes.

Sonic's Homing Attack puts him at the perfect spot to punish with a Finishing Touch.

 

[WrathTheHedgehog]

Here is something that may be of help its a couple of combos that I found. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyJ8G__0oyw

 

[Actus]

Here's a Cloud kill combo. This one is 0 to death, though. Looks damn hard but pretty sexy :]

 

[Snasen]

Here's a Cloud kill combo. This one is 0 to death, though. Looks damn hard but pretty sexy :]

Been trying to use footstool midmatch like this. Trust me it's not close to guaranteed no matter how good you are at following DI if the character has good aerial movement. (Like most top tiers) This might work on someone like link with bad aerial movement, but it's more for showing off in training mode imo xP

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Been trying to use footstool midmatch like this. Trust me it's not close to guaranteed no matter how good you are at following DI if the character has good aerial movement. (Like most top tiers) This might work on someone like link with bad aerial movement, but it's more for showing off in training mode imo xP

Whenever I try them outside of using greninja, I get footstooled in stead. Youre right.

 

[Iron Maw]

If you do an Fair then follow it with a Fsmash in time you can break shields. This provide the Fair is spaced properly so you aren't punished after landing it. I would imagine that Cross Slash works even better.

https://youtu.be/06u_GljoCQ8?t=246

 

[VillageofFitness]

I typically use Cloud as a rush down character. I'd say my most used moves are his Forward Smash and his Side B. Good way to get multiple hits on somebody. I see a lot of people say the only good reason to use Cloud's Limit Break is for recovery but I have no problem recovering with him as he's pretty floaty. I'd say in terms of his limit break I like to use his Blade Beam the most in that state as most people get the hell away from you when you're in Limit Break

 

[Eureka]

I typically use Cloud as a rush down character. I'd say my most used moves are his Forward Smash and his Side B. Good way to get multiple hits on somebody. I see a lot of people say the only good reason to use Cloud's Limit Break is for recovery but I have no problem recovering with him as he's pretty floaty. I'd say in terms of his limit break I like to use his Blade Beam the most in that state as most people get the hell away from you when you're in Limit Break

I have no idea if this is the greatest parody of early Cloud players ever or if you are actually serious. I'm leaning more towards joke though. In which case well played sir, well played.

 

[VillageofFitness]

Serious E Eureka I will readily admit I suck at Cloud, and really only play him because I'm an FF7 fan. Although, I shouldn't have expected anything less than ridicule for talking Smash tech.

 

[Eureka]

Serious E Eureka I will readily admit I suck at Cloud, and really only play him because I'm an FF7 fan. Although, I shouldn't have expected anything less than ridicule for talking Smash tech.

I apologize, I in no way meant to offend you. I thought for sure you were joking because, well, just about everything you said was the OPPOSITE on how you're supposed to play cloud.

I typically use Cloud as a rush down character.

Firstly, and this is the biggest one, Cloud is not a rushdown character. While he's decently fast, he doesn't have the tools or combos to go all in on people. The bigger reason not to go in is that Cloud has an incredible range with his Buster Sword, combined with Blade Beam and Limit Charge basically forces people to approach and deal with that range. Cloud is a character that wins and loses based on the neutral play, not in-your-face brawling.

I'd say my most used moves are his Forward Smash and his Side B. Good way to get multiple hits on somebody.

Side b is a tool you can use fairly often (although I prefer Ftilt for a move to lean on) but Fsmash is not a move that can just be thrown out due to it's large startup and end lag. Yes they both do good damage, but a opponent who catches on and starts blocking those moves is going to have a field day. Fsmash is mostly useful for when you are punishing an opponent or making a hard read. The number of hits don't really matter, it's what those hits accomplish. Remember the Hoo Haa was only two hits after all.

I see a lot of people say the only good reason to use Cloud's Limit Break is for recovery but I have no problem recovering with him as he's pretty floaty.

Using Limit Break for recovery is something you almost never want to have happen, because you waste a shot at landing something like Finishing Touch or LB Cross Slash. Clouds distance on his recovery isn't it's problem, it's the fact that it has a terrible ledge snap. So against an opponent who knows what's up, or any Ike in the world who can press and release neutral b, you're probably going to get edgegaurded pretty hard. Thing is people don't really know what's up yet.

I'd say in terms of his limit break I like to use his Blade Beam the most in that state as most people get the hell away from you when you're in Limit Break

LB Blade Beam is good, as it's a transcendent and very active projectile with the knockback of a smash attack and does 19%, but it is not usually the best use of Limit Break. Generally, the absolute optimal use for Limit Break would be to land a Finishing Touch for an early kill, but that's not always possible. So, what you want to use it for if the circumstances aren't right for Finishing Touch, which will probably be most of the time, is LB Cross Slash. LB Cross Slash is freaking stupid. No really, this move is dumb in how good it is. It's a frame 10 move with invincibility starting on frame 6 that does absurd knockback both horizontally and vertically, tons of damage, and has low ending lag. Just don't miss it or you'll look like a fool with your flashy blue kanji. But like I said before LB Blade Beam is good, so if your opponent's at high enough percent where it will kill them, or low enough percent that you'll get another Limit Break when you want them dead, then go for it. But it is the most telegraphed of Cloud's Limit Breaks, so keep that in mind.

The other thing I want to touch on is that if people are running away from you in Limit Break, let them run away if you have the lead. Sure, it might be really annoying, but if they want to just run away and not play the video game, don't take the video game to them. They will approach you eventually, and that plays right into Cloud's strength with his range. Do some dancing or even taunting if they're playing a character that can't catch you while you're doing so, but if they run away while you are in the lead, you are winning by doing nothing. Now, if they're in the lead and they suddenly break off like you burnt down their hometown they might actually be trying to bait a LB Blade Beam out of you. Because if they run, and you throw a LB Blade Beam after them, they can just block it and you wasted your Limit Break, and that's terrible. In this case you probably want to approach with spaced Nairs and Bairs, and dash grab if they get too shield-happy.

Again I didn't intend for my post to come across as ridicule. I hope this helps out, and I hope you enjoy playing as Cloud.

 

[VillageofFitness]

Finishing Touch is wonky for me in that I haven't quite figured out the hitbox for it yet. Plus, my immediate go-to for a close range limit break is to use his Side B.

 

[Eureka]

Finishing Touch is wonky for me in that I haven't quite figured out the hitbox for it yet. Plus, my immediate go-to for a close range limit break is to use his Side B.

Finishing Touch is pretty wonkey, it's only really good if you get a hard read or a set up into it, which is why I said most of the time you'll be using LB Cross Slash.

Something interesting about Finishing Touch though, and I dont't think it's been noted yet in this thread, is the hitbox above Cloud (the buster sword itself) is actually quite a bit stronger than the hitbox in front of or behind Cloud. For example, on 3DS Battlefield if you stand directly next to Shiek and hit her with Finishing Touch from her starting position she goes off the top at 61%. If you instead stand underneath the platform and hit her with the move from underneath she dies at 50%. This may be important if you're trying to go for those cheesy dair or uair to Finishing Touch setups for some early kills.

 

[Shin Bowser Meow]

Not entirely sure if i'm in the right thread for this, but has anyone used f smash to smack people during spacing wars? I know its no move to chuck out all willy nilly, but Cloud steps back enough to make spaced attacks whiff. I want to say anything that would hit his front foot while hes standing will whiff if Cloud does f smash.

 

[Eureka]

Not entirely sure if i'm in the right thread for this, but has anyone used f smash to smack people during spacing wars? I know its no move to chuck out all willy nilly, but Cloud steps back enough to make spaced attacks whiff. I want to say anything that would hit his front foot while hes standing will whiff if Cloud does f smash.

I've done it a few times. It works more often then one would think, but I can't help but wonder if that's because of the surprise factor of the move or a lack of matchup experience. Either way you feel like a badass when it works and a dumbass when it doesn't.

 

[Shin Bowser Meow]

I've done it a few times. It works more often then one would think, but I can't help but wonder if that's because of the surprise factor of the move or a lack of matchup experience. Either way you feel like a badass when it works and a ******* when it doesn't.

i will admit that I felt like a god when I smacked my roomies Dedede in the face after f smash dodging his f tilt. I don't think many people factor that in when facing a Cloud.

 

[Rocxidi]

So apparently Cloud's Finishing Touch has 3 hit boxes, could be more. It has hit boxes behind Cloud, in front of Cloud, and above Cloud. The one behind has the least knockback while the one above has the most .This info could be wrong so don't take my word for it.

That being said, Cloud's best throw by far has to be his up throw. It deals the most damage and leaves the opponent above you, allowing you to hit them with up air. If they jump, try catching them as they fall. Their only options are to challenge your upair, which very little characters can, or airdodge, which you can read.

If you think Finishing Touch is cheese try making a hard read and punishing an air dodge with the upper hitbox. $$$$$$4

 

[Eureka]

So apparently Cloud's Finishing Touch has 3 hit boxes, could be more. It has hit boxes behind Cloud, in front of Cloud, and above Cloud. The one behind has the least knockback while the one above has the most .This info could be wrong so don't take my word for it.

That being said, Cloud's best throw by far has to be his up throw. It deals the most damage and leaves the opponent above you, allowing you to hit them with up air. If they jump, try catching them as they fall. Their only options are to challenge your upair, which very little characters can, or airdodge, which you can read.

If you think Finishing Touch is cheese try making a hard read and punishing an air dodge with the upper hitbox. $$$$$$4

Finishing Touch actually only has two hitboxes, but for whatever reason hitting someone from bellow does different knockback, and we're not quite sure why in the data. The weird thing is though is that some characters die earlier from getting hit from underneath some actually die later. I'm in the process of testing who dies sooner and who dies later, but as a general rule heavyweight characters die later and lighter characters die sooner.

 

[-Iceberg]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but probably because it's pretty simple. If your hanging on the ledge, you can do the following as a getup option:

> + > +

These inputs are based on hanging onto the left-side ledge of a stage, with Y being jump. This makes you drop from the ledge, jump, Limit Charge, and land on the stage. You can also input left instead of down to drop from the ledge, but down makes it easier. This is the best option to use when your hanging on the ledge after a KO, because it puts Cloud back on stage and charges your limit. This the fastest option compared to the other getup choices, normal/roll/jump/attack, because with this, you can start Limit Charge on frame 3.

 

[Lyled]

I did a shield break using Limit Cross-slash followed by Fsmash while playing on FG just now. I am aware that this could be an unreliable method to get a shield break but it got me thinking whether anyone has found any possible shield break setups for Cloud since many of his moves deal a ton of shield damage.

 

[Kalierdarke]

I did a shield break using Limit Cross-slash followed by Fsmash while playing on FG just now. I am aware that this could be an unreliable method to get a shield break but it got me thinking whether anyone has found any possible shield break setups for Cloud since many of his moves deal a ton of shield damage.

I don't think there's any "setups", but a few moves combined with LB Cross Slash or F-smash will shield break due to the shield damage of those two. So if you get an opponent that likes to shield but doesn't always perfect shield you can get a break. Fair followed by f-smash shortly after also breaks. More things will shield break off a LB Cross Slash than an f-smash though, just have to catch that shield happy opponent.

 

[Rizhall]

(disclaimer, I come from SF primarily and am newb to Smash in general, so a lot of what I say might be obvious or wrong, but I shall try my best)

I noticed with air Blade Beam, the move stops your jump momentum immediately and keeps you suspended momentarily. During that time, you can tilt back or front to inch forward or backward as you throw the Blade Beam. Playing around with both of these properties, I found a pretty fun zoning tool. By pressing jump immediately into B, you'll do an instant air Blade Beam while being able to move at the same time. It may be useful, albeit subtle.

Another thing I noticed which is weird is, when you cancel out of Limit Charge and immediately press any A attack, it'll always come out as a smash attack (not pressing a direction yields a forward smash.) I think that's super weird. Maybe it can be a useful way to do a Smash out of a dash?

 

[GHNeko]

The first note of yours is common knowledge. Blade Beam's air mobility aspect is useful for stalling and recovering.

As for the limit charge thing, its because you have A+B Smash attack turned on. Something new this game introduced is the ability to do Smash attacks by pressing attack+special. As such, you can piano the buttons to smash out of limit charge. Dsmash and Usmash is possible as well.

And simply acting out of a limit charge from run is known as well since canceling wit b gives you only like 5f of cooldown.

 

[SirBacon]

Something I have recently discovered is the way cloud can cancel his cross slash. The first two hits can be crouch cancelled with the second hit pulling your opponent towards you. Being used in the air this has guaranteed follow ups, such as a footstool to some sort of punish. It can guarantee a dair, and nair as well but the up air and fair are mixup opportunities. This works on the ground as well, but it will only guarantee a grab. It will however be great for mix ups. At above 40% they cannot fastfall and shield to escape. Only fastfallers can fast fall and shield above that percent. If they shield you get a grab, if they airdodge then oh man you get to go to town. When they airdodge you can side smash, ftilt, down smash, and up smash. This way at kill percent it guarantees you a follow up into a kill. I hope this helps and can be used properly!

Also just wanted to mention if you are at the ledge and you throw the towards the ledge at about 40-60% you can guarantee getting a spike. Fair on backthrow and dair on forward throw.

Down throw can combo into side b but only at specific percents. On light weights and floaties at about 10-15% at mid weight it works at 5-10% on heavies and fatties it works. Just above those percents pivot until works and just farther above that down throw to pivot back air works.

For some reason clouds sword is a cross between marth and Roy. The middle of his sword actually is the sour spot on some moves. His upsmash most exemplifies this, the middle will kill 10-15% later than the hilt hitbox and the tip hitbox will kill about the same maybe 5% earlier.

Do you guys think that c-stick smashes are necessary for good Cloud play? Ever since Smash 4 came out I've been using stick tilts (because of that aerial momentum thing) and that's how I pretty much learned to play this game, but Cloud looks like he has a much bigger reliance on smashes than any other character that I use, so I'm not sure if I should use a different control scheme when I use him.

I think c stick smashes are necessary for cloud imo. I use them for pivot smashes for baits, like pivot fsmash since it's so strong. But better yet pivot down smash comes out on frame 8 and if you time it right then it's an incredible baiting/punishing move.

 

[Eureka]

Something I have recently discovered is the way cloud can cancel his cross slash. The first two hits can be crouch cancelled with the second hit pulling your opponent towards you. Being used in the air this has guaranteed follow ups, such as a footstool to some sort of punish. It can guarantee a dair, and nair as well but the up air and fair are mixup opportunities. This works on the ground as well, but it will only guarantee a grab. It will however be great for mix ups. At above 40% they cannot fastfall and shield to escape. Only fastfallers can fast fall and shield above that percent. If they shield you get a grab, if they airdodge then oh man you get to go to town. When they airdodge you can side smash, ftilt, down smash, and up smash. This way at kill percent it guarantees you a follow up into a kill. I hope this helps and can be used properly!

Uh how exactly can you crouch cancel in the air where you can't, you know, crouch? Also I'm fairly certain Cross Slash can not be crouch canceled, in fact that's mostly only jabs that works with. Follow ups after hits one and two are very unreliable, if existent at all.

Also just wanted to mention if you are at the ledge and you throw the towards the ledge at about 40-60% you can guarantee getting a spike. Fair on backthrow and dair on forward throw.

No they can air dodge. And then if they do and then get a gimp you look very silly for trying to go deep with Cloud.

And next time you want to add something to what you said before, PLEASE just edit your post. Do something like
EDIT: And then text here.
This way people know the information was added later. Making five posts in a row looks messy and takes up way more space then it ever needs to.

 

[PapaJ]

I feel like learning to ledge trump will be required to get some KO's with Cloud. If we trump them, and have a LB Blade Beam on standby, the opponents only option is to A) Land high, we can punish that with LB Blade Beam anyway or B) They go for the ledge and LB Blade Beam will hit them due to lack of Iframes and the size of the hitbox.

I don't know, This is something that I thought should be at least shared with Cloud users.

 

[SirBacon]

Uh how exactly can you crouch cancel in the air where you can't, you know, crouch? Also I'm fairly certain Cross Slash can not be crouch canceled, in fact that's mostly only jabs that works with. Follow ups after hits one and two are very unreliable, if existent at all.

No they can air dodge. And then if they do and then get a gimp you look very silly for trying to go deep with Cloud.

And next time you want to add something to what you said before, PLEASE just edit your post. Do something like
EDIT: And then text here.
This way people know the information was added later. Making five posts in a row looks messy and takes up way more space then it ever needs to.

Sorry about that. I don't post often.

 

[Chalice]

I was watching Trela playing Cloud against Karna playing Sheik and I saw something interesting

Trela had Limit Break and he did a SHFF Uair in place on Karna's shield RIGHT NEXT TO HIM and the pushback + shieldstun was enough so that Karna could not grab him

I tested it and it turns out if you SHFF Uair in place against Sheik then you can't be grabbed with or without Limit Break. (I don't think Limit Break matters though) In other words, SHFF Uair is positive on Shield.

It works against the majority of the top/high tier characters except for Ness, Sonic, Pikachu, and Rosalina and Tumor

Against those 4, you have to space the Uair a little and you can't be grabbed.

This doesn't work if you run towards them and do the SHFF Uair on them because your momentum puts you in range of their grabs.

HOWEVER! It doesn't matter for because you can DTilt or Jab upon landing since ZSS grab comes out slow and these moves will beat it out

Also, you can still Autocancel SHFF Uair even in Limit Break. You just have to delay your fast fall by like half a second. When you don't have Limit Break it doesn't matter, you'll always autocancel

 

[PapaJ]

I was watching Trela playing Cloud against Karna playing Sheik and I saw something interesting

Trela had Limit Break and he did a SHFF Uair in place on Karna's shield RIGHT NEXT TO HIM and the pushback + shieldstun was enough so that Karna could not grab him

I tested it and it turns out if you SHFF Uair in place against Sheik then you can't be grabbed with or without Limit Break. (I don't think Limit Break matters though) In other words, SHFF Uair is positive on Shield.

It works against the majority of the top/high tier characters except for Ness, Sonic, Pikachu, and Rosalina and Tumor

Against those 4, you have to space the Uair a little and you can't be grabbed.

This doesn't work if you run towards them and do the SHFF Uair on them because your momentum puts you in range of their grabs.

HOWEVER! It doesn't matter for because you can DTilt or Jab upon landing since ZSS grab comes out slow and these moves will beat it out

Also, you can still Autocancel SHFF Uair even in Limit Break. You just have to delay your fast fall by like half a second. When you don't have Limit Break it doesn't matter, you'll always autocancel

Interesting, seeing as how the sourspot does 9.49 damage (five key doesn't work), if we combine that with a LB Side B we could do almost thirty five points of shield damage. Meaning even a filt could break shields. That's if they keep shield up, if we go right into LB Cross Slash we should be able to stuff any attempts if we space it right. Might be worth looking into but I don't have a partner to work with that.

 

[Chiroz]

Interesting, seeing as how the sourspot does 9.49 damage (five key doesn't work), if we combine that with a LB Side B we could do almost thirty five points of shield damage. Meaning even a filt could break shields. That's if they keep shield up, if we go right into LB Cross Slash we should be able to stuff any attempts if we space it right. Might be worth looking into but I don't have a partner to work with that.

Shields have about 42% health and lose like 4% health per second.

I tested this day 1 and any fresh attack (except for one jab) + fresh LB Cross Slash breaks shield. Basically your opponent better perfect shield the first hit or drop his shield during LB CS or he will for sure eat a fully charged smash.

 

[AvocadoEth]

So any consistent combo starter other than FH Dair??

Mostly focus on grab--> turnaround jab or Ftilt. Or you can Nair at low % and follow up with climhazzard. The only other option is falling Uair, but that's not super safe on shield.

 

[FightingPolygon]

Limit Cloud only.

Down Throw to Nair is obviously guaranteed. How about adding Limit Blade Beam if I catch their jump and we're both landing to the ground after the Nair? I tried it. It covers whatever option they choose after landing.

 

[Sprytt]

Does anyone feel we should call the Full Hop D-air to F-air the Nek Combo? Since it's the Ken Combo... but reverse?

This combo also seems either impossible, or at least a lot harder with Limit Break because of the extra fall speed!