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Aura Breaks the Following Match-Ups: (Currently: Donkey Kong)

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Croi

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Lucario Match-Up discussion thread.

When Brawl was still a game that was played, the Wario boards went through the MUs according to the most recent tier list available. Since there is no official or universally-agreed-upon list, IMO we should go down the roster alphabetically. It would be a good way to even out our enthusiasm since we wouldn't skip straight to enthusiastically talking about Diddy and Sheik and then getting lazy with Mii Swordfighter or Doctor Mario.

We could switch up our patterns if we decide to later, but until then, let's discuss our current lucky winner:

CURRENT MATCH UP:

:4dk: Click the smilie for the opening post.

DISCUSSED MATCH UPS: Click the ratios for opening posts. Remember, these are based on the views and opinions offered up at the time and are in no way "official" ratios.

| :4mario: | :4luigi: | :4peach: | :4bowser: | :4yoshi: | :4bowserjr: | :4wario: | :4dk: | :4diddy: | :4gaw:
:4lucario: | x | x| x | 55:45 | x | 60:40 | x | x | 45:55 | x
| :4littlemac: | :4link: | :4zelda: | :4sheik: | :4ganondorf: | :4tlink: | :4samus: | :4zss: | :4pit: | :4palutena:
:4lucario: | x | x | x| x | x | x| x | x | 50:50 | x
| :rosalina:| :4myfriends: | :4robinm: | :4duckhunt: | :4kirby: | :4dedede: | :4metaknight: | :4fox: | :4falco: | :4pikachu:
:4lucario: | x | x | x| x | x | x | x | x | x | x
| :4charizard: | :4lucario: | :4jigglypuff: | :4greninja: | :4rob: | :4ness: | :4falcon: | :4villager: | :4olimar: | :4wiifit:
:4lucario: | 55:45 | y | x | x | x | x | 45:55 | x | x | x
| :4shulk: | :4drmario: | :4darkpit: | :4lucina: | :4pacman: | :4megaman: | :4sonic: | :4miibrawl: | :4miisword: | :4miigun:
:4lucario: | x | x | 50:50 | x | x | x | x | x | x | x

Summaries:
Click the smilies for opening posts.


:4bowser:
  • The MU is 55-45 Lucario.
  • Bowser hits really hard and he has a lot of scary, surprise options that we need to constantly watch for - his Klaw cancels on landing; his bair and fair can cancel Aura Sphere; his upsmash essentially beats everything; his grounded Fortress, while easy to predict, is difficult to punish and even harder to SDI out of.
  • That said, Lucario is fast enough to combo Bowser as long as he likes, and when his Aura is high, he can match Bowser's kill power relatively easily. Aura Sphere and Force Palm control the space, and since Bowser has no projectile outside of Fire Breath (which isn't a great move), Lucario therefore controls the pace of the match. Bowser's large body leaves him vulnerable to even Lucario's more finicky moves, and his bulk plus his poor shield makes him very vulnerable to B-Reversing Aura Spheres.

:4bowserjr:
  • The match-up is 60-40 for Lucario.
  • Jr relies a lot on getting in and racking up damage that way. He has some decent strings and most of his moves come out reliably quickly. He's a heavyweight, and his clown-car defense allows him to absorb more punishment than other characters in his general weight area. Most of his kill moves come out quickly...
  • ... but they have a ton of downtime, so if he misses, he can get punished with nearly anything, including forward smash. His projectiles are all widely telegraphed and are asking to be Double Teamed. Specifically because of his weight and gimmick defense, he's really easy to combo at lower percentages, and once Lucario's Aura is high enough, his spacing is too good for Jr to break through, including Force Palm, which isn't stopped by Mecha Koopas. While Jrs attacks come out quickly, they don't link together very well.
  • Lucario beats him at lower percents by having a stronger combo game and he wins at higher percents by being too good at spacing.

:4falcon:
  • Some Lucario mains can't decide on a number, but the majority of them think the MU is 55-45 for Captain Falcon.
  • Captain Falcon is just too fast. He has too much reach of his attacks; he combos really well out of his throws; his data is too quick for us to match. His forward smash kills deceptively early and he is otherwise not lacking for kill moves at more reasonable percents. He has a stronger trump game than we do. He has a strong boxing game and is unafraid to engage or approach from any angle.
  • Falcon's offstage game is probably his weakest issue. His recovery is very linear and, if our Aura is high enough, we can just charge one at the edge and the fist on his Falcon Dive will knick our sphere before he can grab the ledge. Falcon relies mostly on having momentum and keeping it, so if you can get him to stop for even just a moment, you'll have an opportunity to capitalize. He lacks kill throws (aside from bthrow at the edge of the stage and maybe uthrow at crazy high percents), so if he doesn't kill you early, he's likely not going to kill you until late.
  • The fact is, Captain Falcon can get in whenever he wants and it's hard to push him back out until our Aura, and our percent, is high. He wrecks us onstage, and while he loses offstage, it's tough getting him there to begin with.

:4charizard:
  • Most people didn't really give the MU a number, but the few Lucarios that did think the MU is 55-45 Lucario's favour.
  • Charizard, like most heavies, hits hard. He has an easy time keeping momentum and he has an easy time walling Lucario out at low percents with jab, Rock Smash, and Flamethrower. His upsmash is his fastest kill move and he is the eighth-fastest runner in the game. Flare Blitz is incredibly powerful and covers a huge horizontal area, so getting caught in our Extreme Speed landing lag is especially devastating versus him.
  • Charizard, like most heavies, gets combo'd mercilessly. He's a big guy and he has poor aerial mobility and coverage (aside from his nair). Flamethrower will not stop an Aura Sphere with decent Aura and a blocked Flare Blitz puts him in an untechable tumble, opening himself up for anything we like. In a handful of MUs, Charizard relies on Flamethrower gimping his opponent, but that has not and never will work with Lucario. Although usmash comes out on frame 6, his other kill moves don't come out very quickly, meaning he needs a read to kill us, and with our Aura, our spacing is too good to allow him to even get close enough.
  • Charizard is quick on the ground, but we combo him five times harder than he can to us, and his kill moves require close proximity, which we don't ever have to give him.

:4darkpit::4pit:
  • The consensus is that the MU is roughly even. Some think it's in Pit's favour; some think it's Lucario's.
  • Pit is very fast. His aerials cancel well and his dash speed/grab allow him to rush down fairly well, just like Captain Falcon. His attacks have a lot of disjoint, making it difficult to box him. Out-spacing him with high-Aura Force Palm or Aura Sphere is also risky because he has a reflector that covers both of his sides.
  • Lucario has the tools to succeed in this MU not because of Lucario's own strength, but because of Pit's weaknesses. While his attacks have lots of reach and low startup, they don't have a ton of killing power and more than a little cooldown. He lacks kill power, which only makes our kill power all the stronger, and he has a very linear recovery, leaving him open to anything we could ask for. His reflector has the worst cooldown of them all, so if you bait it out, that's gg.
  • Like Captain Falcon, Pit gets harder to beat the more momentum he gains, but he also loses a whole lot harder if we can stop him.

:4diddy:
  • Pre-patch, everyone was convinced the MU was 60-40 Diddy's favour. But he's been significantly nerfed since then, seeing lots of cooldown on some attacks and less kill power on others. But the MU hasn't changed at its core, so it's safe to say it's roughly 55-45 Diddy's favour.
  • Diddy is scariest with a banana in hand. If he hits you on the ground with it, you're going to get smashed or grabbed. His mobility hasn't changed and he's one of the most erratic characters to fight, grounded or aerial. Every attack of his comes out in the single-digit frames, and a ton of his attacks have far reach and/or unfair disjoint, so he's very difficult to box. He has a command grab with Monkey Flip, so shielding on a platform isn't necessarily safe. Unfortunately, a moderately competent Diddy dictates the pace of this MU, no matter how well you space yourself.
  • Diddy was scariest pre-patch because all that speed and mobility had kill power to back it up, but not so much anymore. Like any character with his general play style, he needs to rack up a ton of damage before he can kill us, and that's just fine with us. Aura Spheres and Force Palms will devour bananas (at 70%~ Aura) if they clash or are left on the ground, and if you don't sit still, Diddy will have a hard time catching you with all the range your Aura gives your specials. All of his smash attacks, while scary and devastating, have long cooldown, and if you can stay centre-stage, he has no kill throws.
  • Lucario can't keep pace with Diddy, plain and simple, but without Diddy's earlier kill power, we don't need to to stay competitive. He's lightweight, so if you can keep him half as damaged as yourself, you'll be winning. You may need some luck to land the killing blow, though.
  • See F2P w/ Gibus vs Denti for more.
https://twitter.com/Dentissb/status/599735365168074752
 
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MythTrainerInfinity

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Bowser's landing lag for air attacks is absolutely horrendous. Punish those landings with Aura Sphere.

We can really harass his ledge get ups if we charge Aura Sphere with our backs facing the ledge. Just be careful... I've had a Bowser on WiFi SDI up and use his down B on me.

Things to watch out for:
  • Bowser runs faster than us, be careful if you need to make some space.
  • Fully charged Aura Sphere beats his Fire Breath at pretty much any percent.
  • His Up B out of shield is almost impossible to get out of.
  • Bowser's DAir has a disjointed landing hitbox, so be careful not to get hit when you rush into punish.
  • Bowser's Down B can be Double Teamed. It will destroy your shield, so try to get out of the way, Double Team it, or perfect shield it.
Probably even or 55:45 Lucario's slight favor. We juggle him all day long.
 

Rysir

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Id agree with Bowser vs Lucario being a bit in lucario's favor, from my experiences it seems pretty safe to poke Bowser with short hopped/descending Nairs and Fairs. He also seems pretty vulnerable to being trapped in a charging aura sphere as well if you drop in on him from mid air.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I don't have much experience against him in this game but this is relevant.


He isn't a free pass since his KO power is far stronger this time around and he can be a pain in the ass to make him mess up with his better aerials this time around.

Don't shield Down B, ever, roll away or spot dodge it if you can. Be careful of side B mix-ups if you shield, when you can abuse his landing with Aura Sphere to try and nail him when he lands.
 

Pitbuller26

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I feel as though Lucario vs. Bowser is a matchup based on respect by both characters. Lucario has to respect Bowser's kill options while Bowser has to respect Aura Sphere.

Aura Sphere is the key thing in this matchup. It's somewhat easy to get Bowser caught in the charge as well as catching his landings due to how big he is. That one move is what keeps this matchup in our favor or close to even at worst.
 

Steam

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more than anything bowser has to respect what horrible things happen to him the moment lucario gets a grab on him or otherwise gets underneath him.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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I would suggest not taking Bowser to BF. If he punishes your landing lag on the platforms you'll die early. I also would suggest banning Halberd as well.

Being directly above Bowser is generally a bad idea as well.

AS charge through BReversals or ledge pressure seems like one of the best ways to apply pressure, since his attacks are a little slow and he is big.

Doesn't Bowser die first on Bowsercides too? So we can probably recover from those.
 

Rysir

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Yeah he dies first on a Bowsercide so if we drag him off the ledge while having at least 10% damage we have a 100% chance to get back on the stage, a Bowsercide is pretty much a no win situation for him.
 

RT

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All I can say is the for stages with high platforms/low ceilings, be wary of his Flying Slam. This move WILL kill at lower percents (below 100%) if he lands on a high platform, especially if the Bowser has rage. Also note that him and his opponent become a giant hitbox while they are falling, so be wary if this happens in teams...

Something amusing a Bowser can do from the edge is SideB an opponent and still be able to fly back onstage with them. Won't happen often, but just be aware.

Overall, respect his power hits, his moves that are quick, watch your percents, and don't let him keep rage.
 
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Pentao

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Have we tried discussing with the Bowser boards how they feel about this match up?

Heavyweights in general always give me a bit of a scare, since I can't just laugh at the fact that I'll probably survive to 130%+ against most anyone else (barring Ness and his b-throw). Against Bowser, bullying him with grabs and spheres seems to pay off well, his air game isn't the best, and he always has to watch out for landing lag on his aerials.

Also agree that staying under him is a good idea since his only two offensive options are Bowser Bomb or d-air, both of which are really punishable and relatively feasible to react to. If you're under him off stage, he'll probably just be more focused on recovering to the stage than trying to contend with our up-air, we can always b-reverse aura spheres if he tries to air dodge them too.

His flame breath is nowhere near as good as Charizard's despite having better range, sometimes you can just plow straight through it too.

He still hits like a truck though, and it's not like we can just camp him 100% due to the slow charge of spheres. Neither of us want to get hit by the other's command grab at high percents.
 

Nysyr

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Bowser is pretty slow in general, his aerials have massive end lag if landed improperly so it's easy to punish him. Really the only thing to be careful of are edge guards and landing above him, especially on platforms. Obviously just don't get hit and you're golden.

Edit: his grab is pretty long range and has decent speed so that's something to be mindful of.

His big hurtbox makes him pretty easy to hit with AS too, so that's a bonus.

He ain't no Ganondorf.
 
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MagiusNecros

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Bowser can cancel out Max Charge Aura Sphere's with Bair until Lucario is at 177% damage. And it's rather easy to pull off. So watch out for that. I believe Fair can do the same. And Short Hop Bair cancels his land lag to he can keep moving. Yeah scary.
 
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Ulevo

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I feel as though grabs and BRAS would be key in this match up. I don't think Lucario has many tools to deal with PS + Up B OOS, and while Bowser is not amazing in the air, his ground game is fairly competent. Does Bowser still have invincibility on start up Up B?
 

MagiusNecros

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I feel as though grabs and BRAS would be key in this match up. I don't think Lucario has many tools to deal with PS + Up B OOS, and while Bowser is not amazing in the air, his ground game is fairly competent. Does Bowser still have invincibility on start up Up B?
Yep.
 

Ulevo

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Actually, back air would be decent. I don't think Bowser has a direct way of punishing a properly spaced Bair, especially one with Aura, since the push back would make it safe.
 

MarioMeteor

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Um, * nerd glasses* it's actually Flying Slam, not Koopa Klaw. But seriously though, I'd give this to Lucario, but slightly, because Aura won't cover the fact that Lucario is lightweight, who Bowser preys on. On the other hand, Lucario comboes him to kingdom come. Try saying that five times fast. I would hop on the bandwagon and say 55:45. I probably have to wait a few years to get to the Jigglypuff matchup.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Um, * nerd glasses* it's actually Flying Slam, not Koopa Klaw. But seriously though, I'd give this to Lucario, but slightly, because Aura won't cover the fact that Lucario is lightweight, who Bowser preys on. On the other hand, Lucario comboes him to kingdom come. Try saying that five times fast. I would hop on the bandwagon and say 55:45. I probably have to wait a few years to get to the Jigglypuff matchup.
Lucario is a point heavier than Mario http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/ so he's a mid-heavyweight 16th excluding the Miis and Shulk stances.
 

RT

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People just lacked killpower in Brawl overall. In this game, not so much when rage gets involved.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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Does Bowser still have invincibility on start up Up B?
No. We lost that this game. Bowser is forced to consider other options when approaching, retreating, and in frame trap situations. It's no longer the God tier move it was, but otherwise it's still one of his fastest moves.

Lucario and his Aura Sphere has everything under control. Unless the Bowser gets some kind of ballsy upset, Lucario should be dictating the pace of the match, not the other way around. It's not a game breaking advantage, though, since there are ways around Aura Sphere. MagiusNecros mentioned Bair and Fair, but those are pretty risky and can be difficult to pull off. Most of the time, you'll just see a power walk + shield, empty SHs, or a SH ADC into Klaw or Fortress. Other than that, both characters have excellent options once their opponent loses neutral, so it ends up being a pretty fun fight as long as the Bowser keeps his cool in the face of AURA.
 
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MarioMeteor

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People just lacked killpower in Brawl overall. In this game, not so much when rage gets involved.
Not really. A majority of the cast had reliable kills. Unless they were specifically designed not to. Like Pit.
 

B!squick

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Also, I think it was discovered that USmash beats everything sans a fully charged AS.

Bowser doesn't even need to shield BRAS, he can just C-Stick up whenever Lucario is above him. Be wary of that, too. Bowser's shell is really pointy.
 

RT

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Bowser's Usmash is just really good anti-air if you are directly above him. I've had it beat TL's dair, not sure about regular Link though.
 

MagiusNecros

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Also, I think it was discovered that USmash beats everything sans a fully charged AS.

Bowser doesn't even need to shield BRAS, he can just C-Stick up whenever Lucario is above him. Be wary of that, too. Bowser's shell is really pointy.
Yeah Upsmash is stupid good.
 

B!squick

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Bowser's Usmash is just really good anti-air if you are directly above him. I've had it beat TL's dair, not sure about regular Link though.
I think Greninja avoids damage with DAir because he bounces off of it so high. And I think ZSS's DownB Kick can go through it without proper timing.

Even Mac's KO Punch wiffs off of it.
 

Nysyr

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Something tells me Lucario and Bowser mains haven't really played.
FTFY.

In all seriousness I've seen the matchup once at a streamed event, and that was the posted video.
 
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RT

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Expect that for a lot of matchups. A lot of characters just aren't popular.
 

Croi

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So I guess this discussion has about run its course. Let me see if I have the general consensus down:

  • The MU is 55-45 Lucario.
  • Bowser hits really hard and he has a lot of scary, surprise options that we need to constantly watch for - his Klaw cancels on landing; his bair and fair can cancel Aura Sphere; his upsmash essentially beats everything; his grounded Fortress, while easy to predict, is difficult to punish and even harder to SDI out of.
  • That said, Lucario is fast enough to combo Bowser as long as he likes, and when his Aura is high, he can match Bowser's kill power relatively easily. Aura Sphere and Force Palm control the space, and since Bowser has no projectile outside of Fire Breath (which isn't a great move), Lucario therefore controls the pace of the match. Bowser's large body leaves him vulnerable to even Lucario's more finicky moves, and his bulk plus his poor shield makes him very vulnerable to B-Reversing Aura Spheres.

With that out of the way, the next character on the list would be :4bowserjr:, a MU I'm sure is going to get just as much attention and discussion. If a mod could edit the title (or maybe make that hub thread and export this post there) that'd be super.

One of my friends uses Bowser Jr, and I don't know if it's just that Jr isn't very good, or my friend isn't, but this doesn't feel like an especially stressful match up. Probably both.

Jr has some guaranteed combos out of his sideB if it lands: he can cancel it with a jump into any aerial, including Abandon Ship, which can rack up the damage fairly well. He has a surprisingly good jab and dtilt, and his ftilt has reach. His aerials are essentially the same as Warios: dair is multihit with a strong finish; nair is a long-lasting spinny thing with great reach; fair hits twice but it fairly weak; bair hits once and is strong. Uair is the only real difference, with Jr's only reaching above him and being rather weak.

Aside from Abandon Ship, Jr's specials aren't great. The cannonball is hugely telegraphed and the Mecha Koopa is pretty lame if you just keep your eyes on it. The Kart is a decent recovery move, and like I said it combos really well out of itself if it lands, but it's also really telegraphed and easy to respond to.

Jr's grab is pretty bad: it has the recovery of a tether but with an average grabber's range, like Mario's. I think he can combo out of dthrow at low percents, but not out of any at higher ones, and none of his throws can kill. His smash attacks are all strong, but they have terrible cooldown, so if he misses or is blocked, he'll get punched right in the face.

Jr is a midweight I think, but with the clown car's gimmick defense (attacks on the car do 80% knockback; attacks on the pilot do 120%), he combos like a heavyweight. He gets tossed around like his old man at lower percents but he doesn't have the kill power or the weight to make up for it. Just keep an eye on his aerials and he'll be a cakewalk for Lucario.

I'd argue 60:40 Lucario, or +2.
 
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Eeveecario

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IMO, we should abuse :4bowser: size, short air-combos and grab games have helped me to control him.
Having an AS charged can also come in hand when you made a mistake and want to sent him out.
Finally, wave-bouncing and reverse-B can help control his rushes, forcing him to attack and counter him with Double teams.

Has worked most of the cases, but really skilled Bowsers can still cause troubles.

EDIT: Sorry, wrong discussion.
I would shield then punish if he approaches, most of :4bowserjr:aerials has enough landing lag to punish.

Mixing air and ground approaches can also dodge most of his moves.
Finally, force him to a low, air-game near the bottom corners if walls are available. He can't refresh his recover
 
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MythTrainerInfinity

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So I guess this discussion has about run its course. Let me see if I have the general consensus down:

  • The MU is 55-45 Lucario.
  • Bowser hits really hard and he has a lot of scary, surprise options that we need to constantly watch for - his Klaw cancels on landing; his bair and fair can cancel Aura Sphere; his upsmash essentially beats everything; his grounded Fortress, while easy to predict, is difficult to punish and even harder to SDI out of.
  • That said, Lucario is fast enough to combo Bowser as long as he likes, and when his Aura is high, he can match Bowser's kill power relatively easily. Aura Sphere and Force Palm control the space, and since Bowser has no projectile outside of Fire Breath (which isn't a great move), Lucario therefore controls the pace of the match. Bowser's large body leaves him vulnerable to even Lucario's more finicky moves, and his bulk plus his poor shield makes him very vulnerable to B-Reversing Aura Spheres.

With that out of the way, the next character on the list would be :4bowserjr:, a MU I'm sure is going to get just as much attention and discussion. If a mod could edit the title (or maybe make that hub thread and export this post there) that'd be super.

One of my friends uses Bowser Jr, and I don't know if it's just that Jr isn't very good, or my friend isn't, but this doesn't feel like an especially stressful match up. Probably both.

Jr has some guaranteed combos out of his sideB if it lands: he can cancel it with a jump into any aerial, including Abandon Ship, which can rack up the damage fairly well. He has a surprisingly good jab and dtilt, and his ftilt has reach. His aerials are essentially the same as Warios: dair is multihit with a strong finish; nair is a long-lasting spinny thing with great reach; fair hits twice but it fairly weak; bair hits once and is strong. Uair is the only real difference, with Jr's only reaching above him and being rather weak.

Aside from Abandon Ship, Jr's specials aren't great. The cannonball is hugely telegraphed and the Mecha Koopa is pretty lame if you just keep your eyes on it. The Kart is a decent recovery move, and like I said it combos really well out of itself if it lands, but it's also really telegraphed and easy to respond to.

Jr's grab is pretty bad: it has the recovery of a tether but with an average grabber's range, like Mario's. I think he can combo out of dthrow at low percents, but not out of any at higher ones, and none of his throws can kill. His smash attacks are all strong, but they have terrible cooldown, so if he misses or is blocked, he'll get punched right in the face.

Jr is a midweight I think, but with the clown car's gimmick defense (attacks on the car do 80% knockback; attacks on the pilot do 120%), he combos like a heavyweight. He gets tossed around like his old man at lower percents but he doesn't have the kill power or the weight to make up for it. Just keep an eye on his aerials and he'll be a cakewalk for Lucario.

I'd argue 60:40 Lucario, or +2.
I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Bowser Jr. is as heavy as Wario not taking damage modifiers into account iirc.

Bowser Jr.'s rapid jab is fairly easy to DI up and we might be able to get an air attack out of it if timed properly.

Mechakoopa can be picked up, but good Bowser Jr.s will probably not give you enough room to do that. Remember to DI away if you get hit by one walking around, so that the second hit (explosion) misses.

Jr.'s projectiles are fairly slow, you can probably easily Double Team them on reaction.

If you don't run into FSmash and/or get hit by his Kart Side B he will have a hard time landing a KO on Lucario. Respect his pokes and disjoints and this MU is easily 60:40 our favor.
 

sparkaura

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I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Bowser Jr. is as heavy as Wario not taking damage modifiers into account iirc.

Bowser Jr.'s rapid jab is fairly easy to DI up and we might be able to get an air attack out of it if timed properly.

Mechakoopa can be picked up, but good Bowser Jr.s will probably not give you enough room to do that. Remember to DI away if you get hit by one walking around, so that the second hit (explosion) misses.

Jr.'s projectiles are fairly slow, you can probably easily Double Team them on reaction.

If you don't run into FSmash and/or get hit by his Kart Side B he will have a hard time landing a KO on Lucario. Respect his pokes and disjoints and this MU is easily 60:40 our favor.
I think this is a good summary. I played a Bowser Jr. yesterday it was a relatively easy match up. I double teamed all of his projectiles and controlled space with AS/BAS. Side B shenanigans are their but its so telegraphed you shouldn't have a problem reacting to it. 60:40 seems about right.
 

Braydon

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I'd also say 60-40, but in favor of Bowser Jr.

Bowser Jr. has qualities that hurt Lucario bad, mainly his versatile arsenal of kill options. Lucario needs to get his aura up, but Bowser Jr. should kill around 100%, and you certainly won't go higher than 120% because by that point almost any of his attacks will kill. Lucario's inability to build aura against him is a pretty big issue.

Lucario also has problems because good Jr.'s are very slippery and evasive, they only commit to one of their dangerous attacks when they're confident they will land it, and Lucario isn't that easy to miss honestly.

Bowser Jr. only often has a problem against characters that are very good at rushing him down, or characters with superior zoning that force him to approach, and Lucario is neither of those.

I think the reason you think bad of him is just because not many players have put in the effort to get good at him, but it doesn't reflect on his potential as a character.
 

Braydon

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Are... are you serious? Is this serious?
Obviously.

Seriously what do you think he has a problem with? It's characters like villager that out zone him with pockets and lloids, and characters like falcon who can easily rush him down.

What do you think he's weak to heavy characters?
 

Steam

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you look at it much too simply. as far as kill options go, jr's are mostly bad outside of gimmicky hammers after upB. and by the time lucario hits 100% jr completely loses his zoning game to force palm flame and is suddenly worthless at neutral. Luc is fairly safe in shield as jr has no kill setups out of throws afaik and his grab itself is garbage. Even before then, fully committed approaches behind his projectiles are easily double teamed through. jr still does well enough at neutral though because his moveset beats ours. But like all zoning characters without a reflector, at high% sideB just ruins him. Though I'm not sure if it beats jr's side B, someone will have to test that for me.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Obviously.

Seriously what do you think he has a problem with? It's characters like villager that out zone him with pockets and lloids, and characters like falcon who can easily rush him down.

What do you think he's weak to heavy characters?
No offense, but have you played any good Lucarios, like tournament placing quality? I'd be happy to show you how difficult of a MU it is for Bowser Jr. if you'd like.
 

Eeveecario

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I don't know if I'm at serious tournament level, but I haven't had too much trouble against a Jr.

Just shield and most of his approaches are gone, and control him with your specials.
You should also make your approaches, you can't be always defensive in a game.
 
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