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Midwest [Aug 22, 2015] EXPosure 22 (Oak Park, IL)
- Thread starter EXPGaming
- Start date
Knubs.
ナブ Paquito.
If it's for Brawl, just show up and try to see if you guys can sign up.
The difference between PM/Melee and Brawl is significant. I can see EXP being more lenient towards you guys since about only 15 people RSVP'd for Brawl singles (show up earliest as possible too just in case). Also, Sunday will be more of a relevantly relaxed day in comparison to Saturday.
HarryTheChin
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 815
I gots called in for work tomorrow D':
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
HARRY THE CHIN.... NOOOOOOOOO
SwagTrain
Smash Rookie
HARRY I'M GOING TO KILL YOUR MANAGER HOLY **** HOW CAN THEY CALL YOU AWAY FROM THIS.
MY HYPE, HARRY. MY ****ING HYPE.
MY HYPE, HARRY. MY ****ING HYPE.
cjugs
Smash Ace
what's the link for the stream
cjugs
Smash Ace
What are u talking about?
B.W.
Smash Champion
No really, there is a stream for this right?
HarryTheChin
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 815
Lazarond
Smash Apprentice
Had so much fun guys!!! I'll be sure to make it to more tournaments!!! Thanks for the hype too!! =D very nice community!! and HarryTheChin #Link mains!!!
Captain Faceroll
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2013
- Messages
- 173
Harry The Chin for 2014 Midwest champ. #believe
Lazarond
Smash Apprentice
am i a pro or rising star? id rather get judged by my peers on that...
Bieber
Smash Apprentice
any way we can get doubles at this?
st. louis (darkatma, me, hart, shinobi) is thinking of coming if there's teams
st. louis (darkatma, me, hart, shinobi) is thinking of coming if there's teams
onmy.
Smash Cadet
Yo where's the 64 m8
Zwarm
Smash Hero
Bobby said he might hold doubles on the Wednesday or Friday before if there's enough interest
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
The whole "Rising Star" thing is a bit dubious. As a game theory/econ guy, it just seems full of holes to me.
I've seen tournaments in the past run an amateur bracket early in the day, with a small entry fee (which would go into the pro prize pool, or to the venue, no actual payouts) and top 1-3 in the amateur bracket get free entry into the pro bracket. Alternatively, pool results could split people into pro and amateur brackets. As it is, judging a player as a pro or "rising star" is horrifically subjective.
I've seen tournaments in the past run an amateur bracket early in the day, with a small entry fee (which would go into the pro prize pool, or to the venue, no actual payouts) and top 1-3 in the amateur bracket get free entry into the pro bracket. Alternatively, pool results could split people into pro and amateur brackets. As it is, judging a player as a pro or "rising star" is horrifically subjective.
Lazarond
Smash Apprentice
Oh and i will be there for EXPosure 7 100% for sure!!!! unlike when i missed smash 101 >.<
HRR2b23
Smash Apprentice
How many slots will there be for the Melee/PM rising stars for EXP7? Thinking about registering and am curious how many are left.
EXPGaming
Smash Journeyman
Now you can see a tournament where an amateur bracket is run in a different way and the amateurs actually win money. If I decide to change things before the tournament then I will but for now this is what we will try out. Also you rsvp'd twice, since you're a pro your rising stars rsvp was deleted.
At the moment there is no cap on the number of participants so feel free to rsvp.
Arty
Smash Lord
Isn't it possible that the winner of the Rising Stars competition wins more money than the actual P:M winner?
azzucips
Smash Cadet
I support the idea for:
top 2 make it to pro bracket,
middle 2 make it to rising star, and
bottom X are out
top 2 make it to pro bracket,
middle 2 make it to rising star, and
bottom X are out
SwagTrain
Smash Rookie
If you guys are worried about rising stars winning more $$$, the really simple solution is to have rising stars worth less than pro bracket. Alternatively, Bobby can just put in a pot bonus for pro.
I was actually talking to Faceroll about this on Saturday, and I'm probably one of the only people here that's all for it, so I'm gonna talk a little about it. It's a good chance for newer players to enter a tournament and not go 0-X and play more. As long as Bobby uses pools for seeding rather than to knock people out in the rising stars bracket, new players can come, play, and not feel discouraged, which I'm all for because the skill gap between new and medium-level players is high, the gap between them and pro players even wider. It's hard to level up fast when you're new and the only thing that's happening is you're being 4-stocked. "Just get better" isn't an option when there's so much depth to Smash that they can't possibly "just get better" unless they're incredible, especially when some of them only have time to make it to a monthly and not to WDW. Rising stars bracket lets them play with players around their level and those a little above so that they get a taste of what it's like to be thrashed. If a new player really wants to play with pros and it works out for them, more power, but I'm under the opinion that their growth is better if they play with their level and those a little better than them.
Also, a player's skill has objective components. When Power Rankings are created, they're more objective than subjective (I would hope). You can use placement at locals, placement at regionals, placement at nationals, and notable wins against other players who have notable placements in those same three categories. If there were absolutely no objective components to say who is better then Power Rankings would never really exist, since you would never be able to say who is better.
All you have to do for "Rising Stars" and "Pro" is set a player or a placing that cuts a line between the two (there's more, I'm just naming the simplest ones that popped in my head). Obviously, that can be done wrong, but I trust Bobby to make solid decisions and maintain this properly.
P.S. Splitting pools reasults into pro and rising stars is a good idea, too, but I wanna see how Bobby's idea pans out because I think it's a good idea. LOL.
I was actually talking to Faceroll about this on Saturday, and I'm probably one of the only people here that's all for it, so I'm gonna talk a little about it. It's a good chance for newer players to enter a tournament and not go 0-X and play more. As long as Bobby uses pools for seeding rather than to knock people out in the rising stars bracket, new players can come, play, and not feel discouraged, which I'm all for because the skill gap between new and medium-level players is high, the gap between them and pro players even wider. It's hard to level up fast when you're new and the only thing that's happening is you're being 4-stocked. "Just get better" isn't an option when there's so much depth to Smash that they can't possibly "just get better" unless they're incredible, especially when some of them only have time to make it to a monthly and not to WDW. Rising stars bracket lets them play with players around their level and those a little above so that they get a taste of what it's like to be thrashed. If a new player really wants to play with pros and it works out for them, more power, but I'm under the opinion that their growth is better if they play with their level and those a little better than them.
Also, a player's skill has objective components. When Power Rankings are created, they're more objective than subjective (I would hope). You can use placement at locals, placement at regionals, placement at nationals, and notable wins against other players who have notable placements in those same three categories. If there were absolutely no objective components to say who is better then Power Rankings would never really exist, since you would never be able to say who is better.
All you have to do for "Rising Stars" and "Pro" is set a player or a placing that cuts a line between the two (there's more, I'm just naming the simplest ones that popped in my head). Obviously, that can be done wrong, but I trust Bobby to make solid decisions and maintain this properly.
P.S. Splitting pools reasults into pro and rising stars is a good idea, too, but I wanna see how Bobby's idea pans out because I think it's a good idea. LOL.
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Oro?!
Smash Hero
This is how I have seen the best amateur brackets run.
Pools happen. Same entry fee for everyone. Top X make it to pro bracket, and EVERYONE else makes it to amateur bracket. A % of the pot is taken from the total prize pool for amateur bracket.
If I was new, or an amateur player, I personally wouldn't like to be labeled as pro vs amateur without pools dictating that for me. Pools allow you an entire spectrum of competition, and everyone being placed into bracket alleviates a lot of the stress of pools. The only problem with this format would be people intentionally sandbagging pools if they believe they can win amateur but not pro bracket. You can kind of mediate that with collusion clauses and rules, since it is usually pretty apparent if sandbagging was going on. The reason I believe that this is the best system, is due to how inconsistent placings are, especially in PM. People might drown in pools, or make it all the way to top 8 solely based on their pools and bracket opponents.
If this is solely a money issue, then yeah, go with the rising stars format. I can help with the best of my ability to seed people if you would like Bobby. If this is about a quality of tournament experience, then at least I personally believe in the alternate amateur bracket system that I explained above. If you do decide to go through with rising stars, then I would say give those rising star players the choice to do one or both brackets, and disallow obvious better players from entering rising stars. Some people legitimately want to play good competition and feel that is the best method to improve for them personally. I wouldn't want to take that away from people just because of an arbitrary skill value we put on people.
Pools happen. Same entry fee for everyone. Top X make it to pro bracket, and EVERYONE else makes it to amateur bracket. A % of the pot is taken from the total prize pool for amateur bracket.
If I was new, or an amateur player, I personally wouldn't like to be labeled as pro vs amateur without pools dictating that for me. Pools allow you an entire spectrum of competition, and everyone being placed into bracket alleviates a lot of the stress of pools. The only problem with this format would be people intentionally sandbagging pools if they believe they can win amateur but not pro bracket. You can kind of mediate that with collusion clauses and rules, since it is usually pretty apparent if sandbagging was going on. The reason I believe that this is the best system, is due to how inconsistent placings are, especially in PM. People might drown in pools, or make it all the way to top 8 solely based on their pools and bracket opponents.
If this is solely a money issue, then yeah, go with the rising stars format. I can help with the best of my ability to seed people if you would like Bobby. If this is about a quality of tournament experience, then at least I personally believe in the alternate amateur bracket system that I explained above. If you do decide to go through with rising stars, then I would say give those rising star players the choice to do one or both brackets, and disallow obvious better players from entering rising stars. Some people legitimately want to play good competition and feel that is the best method to improve for them personally. I wouldn't want to take that away from people just because of an arbitrary skill value we put on people.
snex
Smash Master
where does it say who is not allowed to enter the rising star tourney?
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
Hold on a second! I'm a "Pro" player? I've only ever been to one EXP tournament, and I barely made it out of pools in both events and got knocked out of bracket almost immediately. I know I beat Rat in P:M pools, but frankly that was a fluke. I've never been to a WDW, never broken top 8 at a CoD tournament. You're calling me a "Pro"?!?!?!? At any out-of-Chicago tournament, I'm a total zero, a no-name scrub.
I should have not gone to that event so I could show up as a no-name at this tournament to make money! I am going to encourage my no-name UChi friends to attend so they can win the "Rising Stars" bracket. It should be easy for them if you're going to count me as a "Pro".
I'm not actually upset, but I'm being hyperbolic to make a point.
I should clarify that I think any amateur bracket system with zero (or very small) prize pool is 100% valid, and a great experience for amateur players. My problem is not with amateur players making money; my problem is with the weird incentives that an amateur payout creates, and with the total lack of transparency as to who qualifies as a "Rising Star". As soon as you stick that incentive there, all sorts of weird distortions come into play; collusion, sandbagging, false identities, etc. It's much more elegant to have the system provide zero incentives for cheating (which an extremely small prize pool achieves). Moreover, amateur players don't need that monetary incentive to attend tournaments. A lower entry fee is probably preferable than the minuscule chance of a payout to an amateur player. Plus, if you design it correctly, it'll make EXP more money.
I should have not gone to that event so I could show up as a no-name at this tournament to make money! I am going to encourage my no-name UChi friends to attend so they can win the "Rising Stars" bracket. It should be easy for them if you're going to count me as a "Pro".
I'm not actually upset, but I'm being hyperbolic to make a point.
I should clarify that I think any amateur bracket system with zero (or very small) prize pool is 100% valid, and a great experience for amateur players. My problem is not with amateur players making money; my problem is with the weird incentives that an amateur payout creates, and with the total lack of transparency as to who qualifies as a "Rising Star". As soon as you stick that incentive there, all sorts of weird distortions come into play; collusion, sandbagging, false identities, etc. It's much more elegant to have the system provide zero incentives for cheating (which an extremely small prize pool achieves). Moreover, amateur players don't need that monetary incentive to attend tournaments. A lower entry fee is probably preferable than the minuscule chance of a payout to an amateur player. Plus, if you design it correctly, it'll make EXP more money.
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Tehbankzor
Smash Rookie
I actually like the idea of "Rising Stars" since I have been playing a little over 2 months, and would love more tournament matches. You guys should do the same thing with Melee. I was kind of let down you guys took out melee doubles on Saturday. Was there just not enough time?
Arty
Smash Lord
Yo, if OnionChowder finagles his way into the Rising Stars bracket, I want in as well!!
For real though, I just don't like the idea of the Rising Stars bracket having the same entry fee. Just by judging off of the last EXP tournament, there were about 60 entrants and probably ~30 of those could be considered Rising Stars, which is gonna make for a pretty sizable pot. And I'm almost certainly not gonna win any money in the Pro Bracket, so this is not coming from any sort of greedy perspective, I just don't think it's fair for someone that would normally not make it out of pools, to win $200-$300.
tldr; How is Kels supposed to pay his bills, if half of the pot is gonna go away?!
For real though, I just don't like the idea of the Rising Stars bracket having the same entry fee. Just by judging off of the last EXP tournament, there were about 60 entrants and probably ~30 of those could be considered Rising Stars, which is gonna make for a pretty sizable pot. And I'm almost certainly not gonna win any money in the Pro Bracket, so this is not coming from any sort of greedy perspective, I just don't think it's fair for someone that would normally not make it out of pools, to win $200-$300.
tldr; How is Kels supposed to pay his bills, if half of the pot is gonna go away?!
Lazarond
Smash Apprentice
guys the boss man wants to try this concept so lets just try it..
EXPGaming
Smash Journeyman
Everyone needs to chill out.
I will change the format to this.
This isn't an out-of-Chicago tournament. When Zwarm comes over to me telling me his pool is stacked cuz OnionChild is in it and is really good at PM then you take first seed over Rat. It's obvious you're a top player. But as I just stated the format is gonna change.
This is the most valid point.
I just chose not to schedule doubles on Saturday. We'll be doing doubles at the next WDW and we can do it again at the one after or the Friday before EXP7 or I can even replace Sunday's csp with doubles.
EXPGaming
Smash Journeyman
Changes are being made so basically the top 2 in pools enter a pro bracket and everyone else enters a rising stars bracket.
What would stop me from throwing my pools matches
?I like this idea. Maybe make the pot kinda small for rising star so people dont sandbag. idk.