Q&A Ask Mango Falcon Questions =D and other things

[DuckPimp]

#mallardnation

 

[NightShadow6]

What are good mix ups for falcon?

 

[DuckPimp]

What are good mix ups for falcon?

different variations of jab-grab on shield

 

[Voltz]

Hello.

 

[General Heinz]

yo what should falcon ban against ganon? i'm told that it's yoshi's and i'm inclined to agree because i did ****tiest on yoshi's vs a ganon i played yesterday. additionally, what are most ganons going to want to ban vs me and what should i want to cp? i figure fd is good?

 

[gravy]

I think that you should definitely ban yoshi's. It's kind of similar to fighting Marth on Yoshi's, he has so much range that it's really difficult to avoid him in such a small amount of space. I would guess that ganon would want to ban dreamland against us, because we live forever and are really hard to catch on such a big stage. With this in mind, I think a good CP is FD or Stadium. It's very easy to combo the crap out of Ganon on stages where we just have flat, uninterrupted space to **** them up on. But, at the same time, I think we do pretty well against him on basically all of the stages, so you're never going to have it that bad.

 

[General Heinz]

yeah that's what i figured. yoshi's just seems like his best bet, so i'll ban that in the future. thanks for the advice.

 

[Ziodyne]

I thought FoD would be far worse in this matchup.

Yoshi's is good for ganon, but one good thing in this matchup is that Ganon won't live nearly as long (then again, neither will you LOL).

 

[Voltz]

What do you people think the MU ratio of Falco vs C. Falcon is?

 

[MaNg0]

@mang0__

da twitter

 

[General Heinz]

What do you people think the MU ratio of Falco vs C. Falcon is?

I think most people wouldn't hesitate to say something like 60-40 falco, but it's maybe debatable when you consider how hard falcon's punishing game is and how easily falco gets gimped by one stray weak knee. I don't think there's any question that falco has the advantage though just given lasers and shine >.>

 

[Voltz]

I think most people wouldn't hesitate to say something like 60-40 falco, but it's maybe debatable when you consider how hard falcon's punishing game is and how easily falco gets gimped by one stray weak knee. I don't think there's any question that falco has the advantage though just given lasers and shine >.>

I think it is 65-35 Falco, because CF is finished once a combo starts. I do realize, however, that Falco can be kneed offstage very easily, which can be trouble for Falco.

 

[BTmoney]

There are few relevant MUs in this game that are actually as skewed as 65:35 and I would say that this is not one of them.
If you want to use the combo logic, Falcon's combo game is just as good in this MU. Falcon also has the speed to close out on poorly spaced lasers. If he couldn't chase falco then maybe it'd be that bad. But seriously you can't watch Hax or insert falcon here play and think it's that bad.

 

[General Heinz]

^^

eightnineten

 

[Voltz]

@mang0__

da twitter

Lol at the number of Mangoes on Twitter

 

[DuckPimp]

i only put one underscore and some guy was like what

 

[RFrizzle]

Holy **** tech chases and combos are different, and thats why the match up is 65-35. Falcons hard punishes at low precent are almost completely prediction based, whereas falco gets a bunch of GUARANTEED damage off a cc shine. The neutral game is for sure the hardest, Falcon gets punished equally as bad as vs. fox, and his techcases are a dice roll. 65-35

 

[Voltz]

Holy **** tech chases and combos are different, and thats why the match up is 65-35. Falcons hard punishes at low precent are almost completely prediction based, whereas falco gets a bunch of GUARANTEED damage off a cc shine. The neutral game is for sure the hardest, Falcon gets punished equally as bad as vs. fox, and his techcases are a dice roll. 65-35

THANK YOU! Finally someone aggrees with me.

 

[General Heinz]

Holy **** tech chases and combos are different, and thats why the match up is 65-35. Falcons hard punishes at low precent are almost completely prediction based, whereas falco gets a bunch of GUARANTEED damage off a cc shine. The neutral game is for sure the hardest, Falcon gets punished equally as bad as vs. fox, and his techcases are a dice roll. 65-35

you can say what you want, and i agree with the analysis that falcon's combos are far less guaranteed, but...i mean at some point you can't make excuses just because the matchup sucks.

like Tactician said, there are matchups in the game that approach 65-35 or perhaps even 70-30 (someone correct me if i'm wrong but i'd say something like marth/luigi is that bad) whereas falcon is still a high tier character and still has the tools necessary to deal with falco, especially when it comes to gimping with proper edgeguarding. you could maybe make an argument for it being such a terrible matchup on certain stages (e.g. FoD, FD if he's a particularly laser-campy ****er), but the idea is that if you play falcon your combos are going to be based on prediction and hard punishes and momentum PERIOD. that's just how he's played.

plus it's sort of pedantic in the first place to care if it's 60-40 or 65-35. just get him off the edge and he's one dead bird.

also if you think falco's that bad then you haven't played sheik. sheik is a harder matchup and i'm definitely not willing to say it's 70-30 sheik. thus falco is 60-40, sheik is probably 65-35 on a bad day. falcon arguably only has one favorable high tier matchup (peach, two if you think the marth MU isn't even which i think most would say that it is), but he can still compete in the hands of the right player because his playstyle is so punishing and volatile.

for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZfQbjOGbbg

EDIT: also falco's slow as balls compared to fox so although neutral game sucks because of lasers it can be significantly easier than fox without that retardedly fast nair plane flying around. as tactician said, it's just about keeping up, avoiding lasers, and closing that distance to get that opportunity, then capitalizing hard.

 

[Voltz]

you can say what you want, and i agree with the analysis that falcon's combos are far less guaranteed, but...i mean at some point you can't make excuses just because the matchup sucks.

like Tactician said, there are matchups in the game that approach 65-35 or perhaps even 70-30 (someone correct me if i'm wrong but i'd say something like marth/luigi is that bad) whereas falcon is still a high tier character and still has the tools necessary to deal with falco, especially when it comes to gimping with proper edgeguarding. you could maybe make an argument for it being such a terrible matchup on certain stages (e.g. FoD, FD if he's a particularly laser-campy ****er), but the idea is that if you play falcon your combos are going to be based on prediction and hard punishes and momentum PERIOD. that's just how he's played.

plus it's sort of pedantic in the first place to care if it's 60-40 or 65-35. just get him off the edge and he's one dead bird.

also if you think falco's that bad then you haven't played sheik. sheik is a harder matchup and i'm definitely not willing to say it's 70-30 sheik. thus falco is 60-40, sheik is probably 65-35 on a bad day. falcon arguably only has one favorable high tier matchup (peach, two if you think the marth MU isn't even which i think most would say that it is), but he can still compete in the hands of the right player because his playstyle is so punishing and volatile.

for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZfQbjOGbbg

EDIT: also falco's slow as balls compared to fox so although neutral game sucks because of lasers it can be significantly easier than fox without that retardedly fast nair plane flying around. as tactician said, it's just about keeping up, avoiding lasers, and closing that distance to get that opportunity, then capitalizing hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0O2e-lFABc&sns=em Here is a conjecture.

 

[General Heinz]

lol you can't just cite a match between one of the best falco mains to ever play the game and a relatively unknown falcon like bada-bing bada-boom

under that logic the matchup is like 90-10

falcon has seriously glaring weaknesses and they're all evident in that video but it would be ignoring over a decade of serious improvement by falcon mains everywhere to say that it's that crippling of a matchup

plus you play falco, don't you voltz? so what do you care if it's 60-40 or even 95-5? it's rfrizzle over here who wants his charity stock

"kill yourself three times then it's even!"

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Debating falcon's matchups is fruitless. There's a big difference between high-level of play and the play we are at as well.

IIRC, the consensus among top falcon mains (hax/s2j/etc) is that falco is the hardest. I think most agree that Fox is harder than sheik as well, but I'm not sure.

heinz I don't think you've played HIV/Shaedon/Moose enough tho. Sheik isn't thaaaat bad.

 

[Deleted member]

if first you don't succeed

should try it 10 more times

falcons the king of taking a beating

amazing advice

respect +++

 

[General Heinz]

Debating falcon's matchups is fruitless. There's a big difference between high-level of play and the play we are at as well.

IIRC, the consensus among top falcon mains (hax/s2j/etc) is that falco is the hardest. I think most agree that Fox is harder than sheik as well, but I'm not sure.

heinz I don't think you've played HIV/Shaedon/Moose enough tho. Sheik isn't thaaaat bad.

yeah i think i've played shaeden like once a long time ago and got manhandled.

maybe i just historically do worse against sheik. those techchases get in your head man.

you're going to sweet x on saturday right? we should play at tyler's sometime this week, i need serious matchup experience.

 

[RFrizzle]

I just want you guys to stop being *******
I love fighting sheik and spacies, but you shouldn't pretend,like I'm saying it's unwinnable.
30 dollar mm heinz

 

[BTmoney]

Debating falcon's matchups is fruitless.

Does not compute.

And that was a pretty horrible video example, falco can do that to fox. MUs only serve a purpose at a high level so if you don't manage to hit the opponent that is not obviously not how falcon should play the MU...isn't that obvious?

 

[General Heinz]

I just want you guys to stop being *******
I love fighting sheik and spacies, but you shouldn't pretend,like I'm saying it's unwinnable.
30 dollar mm heinz

ohhhhhhhh

i didn't mean you were saying it was unwinnable, i was just being a ******* haha

and people who disagree with you aren't automatically *******. plus it's a pretty minute disagreement as it is.

where are you from dude?

 

[RFrizzle]

I really don't like sarcastic air quotes srry
I'm from kc

 

[General Heinz]

as in kansas city?

don't know when i'll ever be there but i'm always down for dittos.

maybe if i go to grad school in kansas i'll join your crew lol

wherever i go to grad school there will have to be good smash

 

[BTmoney]

Is that your only criteria ?

Nawh, just messing with you. Soon enough I'll be on this graduate engineering grind and it'd be cool to play still.

 

[General Heinz]

lol that's what my girlfriend says

"you won't have time to play video games in grad school blahblahblah"

my ***

it's not my top criterion but it's pretty high

 

[Voltz]

lol you can't just cite a match between one of the best falco mains to ever play the game and a relatively unknown falcon like bada-bing bada-boom

under that logic the matchup is like 90-10

falcon has seriously glaring weaknesses and they're all evident in that video but it would be ignoring over a decade of serious improvement by falcon mains everywhere to say that it's that crippling of a matchup

plus you play falco, don't you voltz? so what do you care if it's 60-40 or even 95-5? it's rfrizzle over here who wants his charity stock

"kill yourself three times then it's even!"

Actually, the point was that if the MU were any closer than 65-35, Tubes would have at least put on SOME damage, but he did not. By the way, I do main Falco, but I use CF quite a bit.

 

[RFrizzle]

Thats also a really dumb thing to say

 

[General Heinz]

Actually, the point was that if the MU were any closer than 65-35, Tubes would have at least put on SOME damage, but he did not. By the way, I do main Falco, but I use CF quite a bit.

yeah, matchup proportions aren't designed to tell you like how many stocks a character will take. it's not like a 60-40 matchup means character A will take 60% of the eight stocks between the characters and character B will take 40% of them or something like that. it's more like character A is predicted to win 60% of the games at the highest level.

 

[Ziodyne]

I don't understand how people make MU ratios. They're pretty darn arbitrary for the most part it seems. All I remember is that Falco-Falcon = BAD for Falcon lol.

@Voltz That video you posted is probably the worst support you could've used for your case. **** dude, I JV'5ed a Marth, I don't say that the Falcon-Marth matchup is 65-35.

 

[Divinokage]

A MU ratio is like one character has more situations where he's disadvantaged/advantaged compared to the character he's facing. Understanding those situations will mean that you can definitely work around it so that you won't be in those situations in the first place.. IE Falcon in shield vs a spacy. Something like this is obviously a big disadvantage, so in order to not be too close to a spacy in the first place.. you have to get better movement, better spacing with moves.

 

[BTmoney]

I don't understand how people make MU ratios. They're pretty darn arbitrary for the most part it seems.

How could you not draw meaning from a depiction of a MU once you understand what purpose it serves?

A MU ratio is like one character has more situations where he's disadvantaged/advantaged compared to the character he's facing. Understanding those situations will mean that you can definitely work around it so that you won't be in those situations in the first place.. IE Falcon in shield vs a spacy. Something like this is obviously a big disadvantage, so in order to not be too close to a spacy in the first place.. you have to get better movement, better spacing with moves.

This should be the official definition lol.

 

[Ziodyne]

I was having trouble seeing how people made these kinda random numbers and it feels like when people try using MU ratios to describe matchups, they're generally inconsistent in how these ratios describe a matchup (is it abysmally bad or is it just bad)?

but what kage says makes sense and that's pretty cool.

 

[Divinokage]

How could you not draw meaning from a depiction of a MU once you understand what purpose it serves?



This should be the official definition lol.

And sometimes there's absolutely nothing you can do like Falcon/Ganon recoveries are easily punished by at least characters that cover off-stage really well. It would also be a big reason why matchups are more difficult than others.

 

[BTmoney]

I agree. If he/they had just one recovery mix up they'd be so much better. Not counting downB. How ridiculously unsafe raptor boost is is ridiculous.

(I wanna see some kage falcon btw)