Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Punishment Divine]

Stop stating your opinion as fact. Any good debater knows that he gets nowhere with whoever he's debating with when he denounces an entire region's TOs based on the matter of STAGE LEGALITY, something which is entirely subjective. Your manner of argument is rather erroneous, too -- "Everybody in my area makes good decisions. This stage is banned at every tournament. Therefore a good decision is to ban this stage." That's full of **** and you know it.

There is no other way to state your opinion. If you don't state your opinion as fact, then you are giving people the assumption that you don't believe it yourself. Please don't take it as though I'm assuming I can't be wrong. I'm not denouncing your region's TOs, although I believe the word '********' was a bit harsh and a little immature for the esoteric language which I hope to display, apologies. However, I stand by the fact that Jungle Japes should be banned, everywhere and will say nothing more than it has been debated to death on the EC and pro-ban won by a longshot.

Did I ever compare it to FD? You're debating me on grounds that I never even tried to argue on. You make YI seem like the worst neutral for Marth...when it's largely matchup dependent. Marth does garbage on FD and Halberd too, both of which could function as starters. Rethinking it I will agree with you that MK is terrible to fight on this stage, but Marth definitely does well on YI. Slops are only minorly disruptive to your spacing/zoning in my experience.

My original post on the matter was comparing YI to FD, and imo FD is better by a longshot for the most part. When I compare these two I AM taking into account matchups, and imo for most matchups FD will be better than YI. Slopes and Shy Guys screw with my spacing a lot, in my experience and just...blehhh.

Debaters are not known for using hyperbolic speech; they are known for destroying the opponent using clear language that is not expanded in any way. The platform of Yoshi's is equally helpful as it is damaging - you can set up your own juggles on the platform, it's something nice to ledgejump onto and the angles make it so that you can apply shield pressure and shield poke...make them panic.

I am known for using hyperbolic speech in my debates. If you're attempting to sway people through rhetoric you're going to boost your points as much as possible and demean your opponents' as much as possible, that's my theory. I disagree with your point that it is equally helpful as it is hurtful - imo, Marth just can't capitalize on the platform as much as MK, Snake, DDD, GnW, hell even CF and Ganondorf can.

Most spacies have secondaries for Marth anyways, once you pick Lylat they know to switch.

I've not really had people switch from their main just because of Lylat. I actually had someone switch from ROB TO Falco in pools at APEX lol.

Don't exagerate your answers this isnt a debate this is you trying to answer questions for other marths. you are trying to help people not win arguments. Yoshi's is good against Pit, falco, PK kids and others those shy guys help us more than they hurt us against some... mainly people who use projectiles that are disrupted by them. The only really terrible thing on Yoshi's is the slope of the stage. the platform is eh to me helps sometimes other it doesnt. I don't think its a weak stage for marth... never have... i just prefer others.

The current post war WAS a debate, and I am ALWAYS trying to win an argument =) I agree on the Motherboys one though, but they're pretty boned no matter what stage they're on lol. Pit and Falco I don't particularly agree with, nor do I agree that this isn't a 'weak' stage for Marth, as it is definitely, imo, his weakest neutral.

@ ph1lny3 - stall with Dancing Blade, conserve your jump, or just don't go low sometimes if you think they'll try and edgehog you

 

[Xisin]

I don;t think you're reading my post or im not posting clearly let me restate this:

Just because it "his weakest neutral" does not make it a bad stage for him, i don't see anyone CPing me here... besides maybe olimar and i dont really feel disadvantaged then either.

Whats weak is relevant to the player, Steel refuses to play on Lylat, i love the stage , i happen to hate smashville. YI i dont mind BF is okay FD i like too actually. My best performances have been on FD actually including losing a game to a falco on BF but then winning on FD to win the set... /shrug

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

My CP's are Battlefield, Smashville, and Halberd.

Mainly Halberd since most people ban BF.

Whenever I stage strike I pretty much always end up on Smashville. I dunno why lol.

 

[Shaya]

Because smashville is the most neutral stage in the game.

Marth does fine on Yoshi's againt most.
Final D is fine, but I woudn't want to vs Snake, Dedede or Diddy there. Arguably Wario as well (too much room for that bugger).
But I wouldnt want Yoshis against Snake or D3. MK is so so... the side walls on the ledges make... certain.. particular... tactics... really... viable... to... gimp.... meta... knight...

 

[Freezewish]

You said gimp metaknight..

LOL

I personally hate YI as a stage. Doesnt make it a bad stage, there are just better options for a CP as marth. Falco and Pit take them to castle siege,

Fighting Pit, Oli, Falco, ZSS, and Lucario on FD aren't recommended either. I always strike it unless I'm vs a MK or GnW.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

The sloped ground disrupting your spacing should be far more detrimental than the ghost.

Heh yeah that too. I like dtilting off on the edge though, since it angles down XD.

Lylat against spacies <33333333

Lol inoamirite?

@the above DEBATE on a DEBATE (lulz), I haven't read it all, may be I will, but it's fine to state your opinion as a fact, that's just how you write stuff when you want to persuade or w/e. Literary skillz, ya know?

I'm getting killed so badly as marth when trying to recover onto FD/smashville. Any suggestions for learning to angle the recovery better so you don't hit the lip/underside?

Seriously? Eh I'll try to explain it, it's a bit hard though since it just comes with practice. First I'll talk about FD.

Make sure that your distance horizontally from the edge (meaning the tip where you sweetspot) is not 0, but instead you have at least SOME distance away (horizontally). Basically what I mean is this: Don't be directly below the tip when you Up B, or else you'll die (I'm pretty sure anywhere further into the lip than directly below won't let you survive, and if not, then it's very close to that spot). So just remember, if you're directly below, then DI back away from the stage a bit then Up B.

Ok come on, honestly Smashville is very easy and shouldn't be a problem. It's just like BF.
Ok so with SV, you don't have to be directly below, you can sweetspot it by Up Bing closer to the lip (horizontally) than you have to be on FD. So just to say the extreme (since I don't know where EXACTLY the spot is) for Up Bing in order to sweetspot is that you can't go past the "point" of the stage. By point, I don't mean the edge of the stage that you grab back onto, but I mean the bottom side of the stage. If you still don't know what I mean, then read this: Ok so SV is a trapezoid, except upside down. The "point" of the stage is where the ends of the bottom of the stage end.

Also, if you find you are too close under the stage (horizontally), then you can also hold back (for DI) during the Up B, it helps just a little.


For both FD and SV, and just stages in general, if DI'ing back and holding back during Up B won't work because you may be too close under the stage, then try a reverse Up B, and usually you will want to hold back so that you'll DI to grab the edge.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I don;t think you're reading my post or im not posting clearly let me restate this:

Just because it "his weakest neutral" does not make it a bad stage for him, i don't see anyone CPing me here... besides maybe olimar and i dont really feel disadvantaged then either.

Whats weak is relevant to the player, Steel refuses to play on Lylat, i love the stage , i happen to hate smashville. YI i dont mind BF is okay FD i like too actually. My best performances have been on FD actually including losing a game to a falco on BF but then winning on FD to win the set... /shrug

Okay. I see what you're saying. However, although I agree it's not the worst stage possible, considering it's the worst of the four/five stages you're probably going to play on most, that weighs a lot. I've had people CP me to the stage as MK and Pikachu, both of whom I think are infinitely gay on this stage. The same goes for Donkey Kong, omg is this stage gay against him.

I will say that although I stand by the fact that I don't think that it's a great stage for Marth, personal preference leads me to ban it every time. Like you said, everyone has their preferences. I like Lylat a lot, for instance, for both my main/secondary (Snake). Yoshis is just...******** lol.

@the above DEBATE on a DEBATE (lulz), I haven't read it all, may be I will, but it's fine to state your opinion as a fact, that's just how you write stuff when you want to persuade or w/e. Literary skillz, ya know?

Lol yeah that's what I was getting at. I've been told I write exceptionally impressive essays and this is one of the techniques I use. Admitting the possibility you are wrong is a sign of weakness, even if you truly know that you can be wrong.

I also hope I didn't come off as arrogant in this "debate" lol. I'm really not arrogant, I just have my own ways of expressing my opinions.

Final D is fine, but I woudn't want to vs Snake, Dedede or Diddy there. Arguably Wario as well (too much room for that bugger).

I also don't reccommend it against Falco, Pit, Pikachu, and even Fox in some instances...depends on their playstyle.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Any TO who allows Japes is ********. I'm sorry, it's true.

Agreed :D And it helps the High Tier Characters more than low tier characters, (such as Falco), and High tiers are already good enough... they don't need a stage they can pwn even more on...

Because smashville is the most neutral stage in the game.

I DEFINITELY AGREE. It's just perfect... SV, BF, Halberd are my favorite maps :D And Halberd is perfect too. It's fun to play on, and the hazards are rewarding but not too dangerous. And it's just awsome. Actually I think I may have to say that Shadow Moses Island is also one of my favorites, because I like ICG'ing my friends with DDD lol XD but of course it's banned so that doesn't count...

Btw, has anyone ever gotten annoyed (especially when Brawl just came out), that whenever you swung your sword, and the animation shows that they hit your opponent, but it doesn't actually hit them? It made it really confusing for me to try to remember where to "eye" each attack in order to tipper it .

 

[Pierce7d]

. . . right . . . lmao anyways

Since we're talking about neutral stages, I'll drop my opinions/experience into the "fray", lol

BF is by far my best stage. I almost NEVER lose here.
FD is fine for Marth, except in match-ups where you want to close a lot of distance, or your opponent can combo you across the stage until the edge.
YI is okay. I don't like it because of the slope on the ground, but usually I manage to use the platform to my advantage more often than my disadvantage. As long as you recognize that it's not a battlefield platform, and more resembles the center platform on BF or LC, then you can use it appropriately. Edge-guarding is different here, so learning it will help you in some match-ups.
LC is my second best neutral. LEARNING HOW TO FIGHT UP AND DOWNHILL WILL TRANSFORM YOUR PERFORMANCE HERE. I might strike this vs. DK, or in some match-ups, but usually it helps.
SV I'm really growing to hate. While Marth functions fine on this stage, the ludicrous idea that it is the most balanced stage in the game is hugely false. First of all, some characters and ESPECIALLY MK get HUGE recovery or edge guarding bonuses here. MK can tornado, and then land on a moving platform that comes to a halt OFFSTAGE, so it's stupidly difficult to punish. Now, I use the platform to my advantage offensively and defensively all the time, and I perform fine here, but these days, I tend to strike this stage FIRST vs. MK. A large amount of my damage relies on juggling, traps, edgeguarding and pressure. This platform just obliterates a lot of that.

 

[phi1ny3]

Seriously? Eh I'll try to explain it, it's a bit hard though since it just comes with practice. First I'll talk about FD.

Make sure that your distance horizontally from the edge (meaning the tip where you sweetspot) is not 0, but instead you have at least SOME distance away (horizontally). Basically what I mean is this: Don't be directly below the tip when you Up B, or else you'll die (I'm pretty sure anywhere further into the lip than directly below won't let you survive, and if not, then it's very close to that spot). So just remember, if you're directly below, then DI back away from the stage a bit then Up B.

Ok come on, honestly Smashville is very easy and shouldn't be a problem. It's just like BF.
Ok so with SV, you don't have to be directly below, you can sweetspot it by Up Bing closer to the lip (horizontally) than you have to be on FD. So just to say the extreme (since I don't know where EXACTLY the spot is) for Up Bing in order to sweetspot is that you can't go past the "point" of the stage. By point, I don't mean the edge of the stage that you grab back onto, but I mean the bottom side of the stage. If you still don't know what I mean, then read this: Ok so SV is a trapezoid, except upside down. The "point" of the stage is where the ends of the bottom of the stage end.

Also, if you find you are too close under the stage (horizontally), then you can also hold back (for DI) during the Up B, it helps just a little.


For both FD and SV, and just stages in general, if DI'ing back and holding back during Up B won't work because you may be too close under the stage, then try a reverse Up B, and usually you will want to hold back so that you'll DI to grab the edge.

Oh yeah, I should have added that this only really happens when I use marth vs. MK, since I get so freaked out offstage that he's going to gimp me that I think "just get as close to the stage that if you get hit, you can at least DI it and try until he messes up", lol. I do fine until I get into that panic zone.

 

[legion598]

if u Nair a shield will a DS always interrupt the shield grab?

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

if u Nair a shield will a DS always interrupt the shield grab?

no. especially not if you hit a shield high, then the shieldgrab gets you before the autocancel of the nair.
plus I'm pretty sure that they'll have time to grab you anyway if you aren't fastfalling, and can grab you during landinglag if you do fast fall =\
i'm not positive

 

[Punishment Divine]

if u Nair a shield will a DS always interrupt the shield grab?

Not necessarily. It's not worth the risk anyways, if you miss you get uber punished...

[QUOTE-phi1ny3]Oh yeah, I should have added that this only really happens when I use marth vs. MK, since I get so freaked out offstage that he's going to gimp me that I think "just get as close to the stage that if you get hit, you can at least DI it and try until he messes up", lol. I do fine until I get into that panic zone.[/QUOTE]

I understand your pain. Against MK, you just have to absolutely KNOW what he's doing offstage otherwise you will get gimped. The best way to recover, imo, against MK is to not go AS low but go more parallel to the stage. Then again it depends on their playstyle, but against dair-happy MKs (see: almost every one) this seems to work. Remember to stall with DB, too.

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

if u Nair a shield will a DS always interrupt the shield grab?

If you fast fall nair non tipper and it isn't power shielded, then DS will always interrupt any shield grab.

 

[Battousai780]

Which grab do I do to make them fall and tech chase?

-edit-

Thanks Punishment Divine

 

[Punishment Divine]

Which grab do I do to make them fall and tech chase?

dthrow, for the most part

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Yeah Dthrow is best, Fthrow works sometimes too.

However, it really depends on what character you are fighting and what percent they are at, the conditions have to be pretty specific to have them fall instead of landing on their feet.

Well I haven't faced any pro MKs, but when I fight MKs, usually they are aggressive, and if they are, then if I'm off the stage and hit high (as in parallel to the stage or higher than taht), then I just DI very little towards the stage, keeping away from MK, then I DS to the stage, DB1 to stall sometimes. But being below him or level with him results in higher survival chances than being above him, but again I haven't faced any "good" MKs yet so this probably won't work :/.

But yeah basically if you're higher than him he can Up B you easily, but if you're below/level, then he has to hit you with an aerial, and in order to do that he has to jump/DI towards you, and MK moves so so slow in the air and his jumps give him very little horizontal distance.

SV I'm really growing to hate. While Marth functions fine on this stage, the ludicrous idea that it is the most balanced stage in the game is hugely false. First of all, some characters and ESPECIALLY MK get HUGE recovery or edge guarding bonuses here

I guess you're right about that, I didn't think about it too deeply. I simply thought that the two most extremely "different" maps were BF and FD, since they're like opposites, and it's just that SV is a bit in between the two, since it's a bit longer than BF and it has open space with one platform only XD.

 

[Tophes]

I have the most trouble fighting this Falco player who spams his spot dodge; apparently the amount of invincibility frames on that move for him is ridiculous. I attempt to double jump to get past his SHDL and try to find an opening, but whenever I get near him, he would bait me into a chaingrab, or if he can't grab me, he would spam his spot dodge and whenever I would try to make a move, nothing goes through due to its high amount of invincibility frames.

I'm in real need of some advice for this problem - I've attempted cross-ups, baiting, zoning, shield pressuring, but it doesn't seem to work since the spot dodge just keeps him so invulnerable. Any advice please?

 

[Shaya]

Tophes, I know this may hurt...

But... get better at the game.
Spot dodges are not impossible to get past, Marth's spot dodge is better than Falco's IIRC.

You have to learn TIMING, because obviously yours is subpar if continual spot dodges is being a huge nuisance. The best solutions Marth has to spot dodge spammers is dancing blade (or jab [jab has a hitbox that lasts for 6+ frames]). However, once you learn the timing your best solution is shnairs to force shields and then tack on the **** from there.

Marth's aerial mobility and fast ground speed generally allows him fast movement to get past the shdls. Perfect shielding is best here, and once within a good range, fairs to cut down his escape options or general options to nearly zero.

Marth also cannot be chaingrabbed by Falco. Dolphin Slash lets you out after the second grab.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

I have the most trouble fighting this Falco player who spams his spot dodge; apparently the amount of invincibility frames on that move for him is ridiculous. I attempt to double jump to get past his SHDL and try to find an opening, but whenever I get near him, he would bait me into a chaingrab, or if he can't grab me, he would spam his spot dodge and whenever I would try to make a move, nothing goes through due to its high amount of invincibility frames.

I'm in real need of some advice for this problem - I've attempted cross-ups, baiting, zoning, shield pressuring, but it doesn't seem to work since the spot dodge just keeps him so invulnerable. Any advice please?

Use lots of dancing blade and neutral air. they cover your front pretty well and will outlast his spot dodge
spacing spacing spacing
you wont get chaingrabbed if you space it right. your fair is a great tool for approaching and the shdl could be shielded or airdodged. ill elaborate later, but I have school.

 

[Asimio]

Where do you aim to attack when spiking Snake? The drone thing or snakes arms?

 

[KillL0ck]

You can just hit the drone and it'll spike. It's insanely easy compared to a normal Spike with Marth.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Uh just hit anywhere on top of him XD. Yeah gimping a Snake feels so good!
Or of course you can just grab him out of it, then just wait for him to fall to his doom.

IIRC, you can actually even just jump into his cypher thing, and it should die... I'm not sure though o.0.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

If you grab Snake outta Cypher he can C4 himself back up.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Actually, a question about that. I've seen that in a lot of matches and stuff. But, whenever I fight against a Snake (like on wifi), many times I'll see that they do the C4, but it never blows up in time... is it because they may be fastfalling when they're not supposed to?

 

[Player-3]

its more of the angle snake gets released out of, the hitbox can reach snake but it usually wont since the timing is hard

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Oh I see Haven't thought about the trajectory.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Here's a question...

Would it be benefitial to our MARTHS if we learned some ATs and strategies of ALL THE OTHER characters to better understand matchups and weaknesses? or would that just throw our Marth askew...

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Here's a question...

Would it be benefitial to our MARTHS if we learned some ATs and strategies of ALL THE OTHER characters to better understand matchups and weaknesses? or would that just throw our Marth askew...

Yeah, it's always a good idea. And that way, you can also find out any other characters that you may like or may fit you better. Otherwise, you could go to a tourney and get pwned... I'm thinking you mean more than the usual knowledge though? Cus without common knowledge then you'd get pwned... well I mean you'd learn common knowledge quickly anyways XD

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Otherwise, you could go to a tourney and get pwned... I'm thinking you mean more than the usual knowledge though? Cus without common knowledge then you'd get pwned... well I mean you'd learn common knowledge quickly anyways XD

I have a common knowledge of all characters (use random pretty frequently).

Yeah, it's always a good idea. And that way, you can also find out any other characters that you may like or may fit you better.

I just picked up sheik three days ago and I regret to admit I've been neglecting marth rob and falco... I'm sheik-crazy and hope it's a passing phase and that she doesn't pass marth, cause I've used him for toooo long to just leave by the way-side.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Actually I think almost everyone has a "phase" with Shiek. I mean, she's fast and a lot of stuff that people like and find fun. I went through a "phase" too. I still play her sometimes.

Oh something that will make you like Shiek even more: she has a new infintie combo (or at least to very high percents, enough to finish them off with a usmash, ending the combo) it's called Saviour's combo.

I just picked up sheik three days ago and I regret to admit I've been neglecting marth rob and falco... I'm sheik-crazy and hope it's a passing phase and that she doesn't pass marth, cause I've used him for toooo long to just leave by the way-side.

Just make Shiek a secondary

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Actually I think almost everyone has a "phase" with Shiek. I mean, she's fast and a lot of stuff that people like and find fun. I went through a "phase" too. I still play her sometimes.

Oh something that will make you like Shiek even more: she has a new infintie combo (or at least to very high percents, enough to finish them off with a usmash, ending the combo) it's called Saviour's combo.



Just make Shiek a secondary

I read about that savior's combo =0 idk how you even find something like that out lololol... ftiltfootstoolshorthopbairbuttonmashbuttonmash

but.... rob...

 

[thaxceptional1]

marth faqs? this thread should be titled marth ***s lol..jp

but what r other attack can marth buffer in xcept for uair ? if any...

 

[180sx]

When i get the lead in a match, should i just camp? Or should i just play aggressively the whole match?

EDIT: k ty

 

[Steel]

depends on the character

but more often than not attack

marth is one of the best attackers in the game, go for it

 

[TP]

Hi guys. I have 3 weeks to learn how to use Marth. At the end of those three weeks, I have a tournament. Last time I went to a tournament, I got 4th of 47, which is good, but I got 3 stocked by a Jiggs main who went on to win the tourney. He has already said he will be at this next one. None of my 6 characters have gotten more than a stock on him in the past, so I'm learning Marth. There's money on the line, after all.

To give me a head start in condensing 3 months of training to 3 weeks, I have a favor to ask. I want some good Marth main to order Marth's moves from most USED to least USED. Not how good they are, how often they are used. If you could look at one of your replays and write down how many of each move you do, that would be great, though it isn't necessary. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[magikguy]

well the least used for me is dash attack , dair , jab .

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Whoa 4th of 47? nice... and you used Ganondorf?

Um well for the frequencies, I don't follow the following statistics all the time, but I DO know how much of each move you should use. So the number I give will just be for you to compare ratios.

80 Fair
40 Nair
30 Dancing Blade
25 Grab
25 Dtilt
25 Uair
20 Utilt
20 Ftilt
20 Bair
5 Dolphin Slash
5 Fsmash
5 Usmash
5 Dsmash
5 Jab
3 Dair
1-2 Dash Attack
1-2 Shield Breaker
1 Counter

Notes: Ok I didn't spend too much time thinking about this, but I did put a little thought into it. Also, I did not count Dancing Blade 1 and Dolphin Slash Recoveries, but I did count moves that do not always hit ( Example is Fair, that is used for spacing a lot, and you will often hit the air).

 

[Tennet]

Go read a lot of Marth threads and watch a TON of videos, it helped me when I wasn't playing. You will have to play a lot and get your feel for Marth, spacing etc.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Lol actually yeah that would probably be a better idea than reading my list XD. Some of the best Marth players:

Yoshi Kirishima
Tennet
Dapuffster
ROBQ

JUST KIDDING lol. Well actually idk how good Tennet is XD.

Some of the best two Marths: Neo and RoyR