Arkansas Smashers Chat

[SmokeMaxX]

How was APEX guys?

Game Ever of Little Rock is going to start doing regular (every couple of months or so) Melee tournaments. First place wins $100 regardless of how many people show up. I'm going to be running the event and I have control of everything except 1) prize distribution which is taken care of by the venue and 2) monitors. I know how you guys feel about CRTs, but the venue was very firm. Winner gets $100; second and third get nothing. Everyone has to use their stock LCD TVs. Everything else is under my control. Hope you guys are interested. I figure it's free money either way for you folks and it'd help the Melee scene out.

 

[Seifersythe]

Yo guys, my sister is taking a trip to little rock this weekend and I was wondering if anyone would mind if I could spend the night with them until Sunday? We could play melee or watch anime or what ever you guys want. If you feel up to hosting let me know.

If Arby doesn't want to house you, we will. But he does have an empty room. So...

 

[arbustos]

How was APEX guys?

Game Ever of Little Rock is going to start doing regular (every couple of months or so) Melee tournaments. First place wins $100 regardless of how many people show up. I'm going to be running the event and I have control of everything except 1) prize distribution which is taken care of by the venue and 2) monitors. I know how you guys feel about CRTs, but the venue was very firm. Winner gets $100; second and third get nothing. Everyone has to use their stock LCD TVs. Everything else is under my control. Hope you guys are interested. I figure it's free money either way for you folks and it'd help the Melee scene out.

Apex sucked, but I'm glad I went overall.

That sounds interesting, although yeah the TVs will make the tournament a farce. I'm sure we'll have fun with it anyway, and the hundred dollars is a nice bonus. The opportunity is appreciated, at least

*ahem you guys wanna split the hundred like 50/30/20 or 50/30/15/5?

 

[arbustos]

G. Vice, you know that one particular subject we talked about most? Well...

To be more specific, when shield pressuring me and putting ME in a bad spot, you are more concerned with protecting yourself when it's you who has to be the aggressor/reader. I see you take no risks/gambles during shield pressures that Westballz would take. Same problem I see with Stabbedbyanipple and Sung.

Your current style will beat noobs consistently, but vs better players you must go for reads/ take risks when its time to be aggressive. Otherwise, I can just roll away and know I'm always safe since you are concerned with your own safety

Also

Wobbles: Thanks for making the drive here. I pretty much echo what Fly says. You are a cool guy to hang out with and chatting with the 3 icies on saturday night was pretty cool. My advice to you which I already told you is to work on making your B-game so **** that you don't need your A-game to win tourneys. A lot of the time I'm not in the mood to play/ playing sorta bad but I don't let things get to me and just work accordingly to my current strengths.

I sincerely feel that my win is not very legit vs you at all. Next time I play you hopefully its when you are playing your best. The competition and the thrill of facing someone who is close to your level/ better than you is why I play.

See, it's not just me! He deserves respect :]

http://i.imgur.com/UoIYx.png
looks like he beat lovage this time

that bracket is scary...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI1rVE8NZHg&feature=player_detailpage#t=289s
perfect

 

[chamberlin]

S2J is really good, but I'm not convinced he's one of the best players in the world. At least not top 10 (more like top 20) He is really good though.

You got me thinking... Who exactly are the top players?

1. Armada
2. Mango
3. Hbox
4. PP
5. M2k
6. KK

Axe, Amsah, Wobbles, Javi (maybe), Jman, and Shroomed are the contenders for the next 4 spots imo. S2J is below in the top 20 somewhere.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Apex sucked, but I'm glad I went overall.

That sounds interesting, although yeah the TVs will make the tournament a farce. I'm sure we'll have fun with it anyway, and the hundred dollars is a nice bonus. The opportunity is appreciated, at least

*ahem you guys wanna split the hundred like 50/30/20 or 50/30/15/5?

Ah gotcha. I figured it was THE (or one of the) Smash Majors so I figured it'd be great. Seemed hype from the SF community's perspective (minus the random nobodies talking trash). A lot of people didn't realize Smash majors get so big/hype.

But yeah, I'm try to make the Smash tournament as accommodating as possible. Oh one last thing, you have to use their controllers too. Once again, they were firm on that. It's $10 total fee per player. There's also a $5 smaller tournament and first place there gets a prize of the venue's choosing. From what I understand, it's not a super cheap prize, but I also have no idea what it is. Rumored to be valued somewhere between $20-50?

I'll give you guys more details when I have them, but this won't be for at least another month.

 

[The March Hare]

Good Lord I'm loving these rules. Lag + crappy controllers giving me a better and better chance of winning first place.

 

[Yo$himan]

Never mind about this weekend. I was gonna ride with my sister down there because she was going to so see her boyfriend, but they just broke up. His reason was that he can't be with an army girl, which is confusing because she was in the army when they met up.

 

[arbustos]

S2J is really good, but I'm not convinced he's one of the best players in the world. At least not top 10 (more like top 20) He is really good though.

You got me thinking... Who exactly are the top players?

1. Armada
2. Mango
3. Hbox
4. PP
5. M2k
6. KK

Axe, Amsah, Wobbles, Javi (maybe), Jman, and Shroomed are the contenders for the next 4 spots imo. S2J is below in the top 20 somewhere.

After the Big House, KK said s2j is better than him. The dude beat whomped on KK AND Vanz there, only losing to Unknown and his friend in a joke grand finals after beating Lovage every other set they've played in many months. He has beat basically all other contenders for the 5-20 slots except randomly getting owned by Tope, who is probably more a contender for 20-30 or 40. Lost to AR and someone at Pound V, AR and M2k at Genesis 2, AR and Tope at Apex. Nasty trend there The results speak for themselves, as do the people he's beaten, plus his playstyle is obviously really solid and holds up no matter how he's playing. Kind of like G. Vice's, in terms of how "solid" and effective it is.

I also think PP is still top 2, but the "true" best player list is all speculation and opinion anyway. Yours is more based on the last two nationals, and even there I'd put PP above Hbox because they beat all the same people and PP wins the head-to-head. Eh.

Contenders for 5-10 can't really be limited to 5 people, because there are more than 5 people there who are in the same skill range and can feasibly all beat each other. It's more like the A or S- tier than an actual numerical designation. Lovage, S2J, Jman, Hax, Shroomed, KK, Unknown, Vanz, Amsah, Ice, Wobbles, Fly, Axe, possibly Lucky again, maybe Javi. Javi may also fall into the 10-20 range with Kage and SW and so on, but who knows? At Apex, he generally lost against the other top players as the matches went on. KK in particular said he's not losing to the guy, which makes me wish I'd seen their friendlies. But I mean, 10-20 are also fully capable of pulling an upset on 1-10, but it would be just that - an upset. "5-10" beating each other wouldn't be.

smash speculah is fun!

Ah gotcha. I figured it was THE (or one of the) Smash Majors so I figured it'd be great. Seemed hype from the SF community's perspective (minus the random nobodies talking trash). A lot of people didn't realize Smash majors get so big/hype.

But yeah, I'm try to make the Smash tournament as accommodating as possible. Oh one last thing, you have to use their controllers too. Once again, they were firm on that. It's $10 total fee per player. There's also a $5 smaller tournament and first place there gets a prize of the venue's choosing. From what I understand, it's not a super cheap prize, but I also have no idea what it is. Rumored to be valued somewhere between $20-50?

I'll give you guys more details when I have them, but this won't be for at least another month.

It should have been great, but the guy who ran it works much better as a producer and not so much as a director if you know what I mean. Basically, he got way in over his head and the tournaments suffered for it. Still, things could have been worse. In terms of exposure, if that was Pound 5 or Genesis 2 with those stream numbers, we would have been looking way better than we did. Better matches, better finals, 100 times the hype. Also, those hosts would have treated the FGC better. I'll stress again though, the TO did a great job setting all this up. He just couldn't deliver.

LOL at those rules. Looking forward to it

Arby, are you busy this weekend? Wanna play a lot of melee?

I'll be busy until I graduate unfortunately, but I'm sure we'll have time for things and stuff.

Just spent my entire refund check ($800) on textbooks, so I will be hard-in-the-ghetto broke this semester. If you guys find yourselves indisposed on the day of these $100 tournaments, I wouldn't be too beat up about it

No really, I got 0.00 in the bank until June

 

[arbustos]

Never mind about this weekend. I was gonna ride with my sister down there because she was going to so see her boyfriend, but they just broke up. His reason was that he can't be with an army girl, which is confusing because she was in the army when they met up.

Aww you make me sad

 

[Yo$himan]

Aww you make me sad

yep, I was getting hyped for some epic matches. I was practicing fox for about three hours when I got that unfortunate call from my sister.

 

[arbustos]

I'm already looking for a break of some sort, which your visit would have fulfilled... boo.

People were calling for a snow day in my senior capstone class :D These are dreams a man can get behind, unlike dreams of Taylor Swift. Get behind that, and a man might find himself in prison.

Spoiler

but I'm already here!
ba dum tish

 

[Vts]

I wanna play some melee this weekend ><, gotta work on my sheik lol

 

[arbustos]

We'll find time!

Friday/Saturday would be preferable for me, since I actually have class on Monday this time and can't put everything off forever. Those days should be wide open though, after 1 on Friday.

 

[Seifersythe]

When you free Arby? Thinkin about heading to Gamestop to try to swindle me a PSP.

 

[arbustos]

After 6. There's an extra credit opportunity at 7:30 for my hardest class, but I know I'll be too tired to go through with it.

I can hang out for awhile... maybe til midnight?

 

[Seifersythe]

Sweet action.

 

[chamberlin]

I also think PP is still top 2, but the "true" best player list is all speculation and opinion anyway. Yours is more based on the last two nationals, and even there I'd put PP above Hbox because they beat all the same people and PP wins the head-to-head. Eh.

My list is actually based pretty much heavily on my opinion then the rest is speculation rather than mostly the last two nationals. Although, those tournaments are very important :D

 

[Vts]

well if i were to make a top 5-10 list it there would be 2 of them, over all top skill list then the consistency list lol

 

[arbustos]

That's hard to call because of the nature of our community. We've only had three nationals in the past year, and it seems a little unfair to judge these top players on three random days of a double elimination format and call it "consistency." All you can then do is bring in local performance, which opens the door to speculation. Players do generally perform within a certain skill bracket, regardless of the day, so we can group them. Exact order, though, is absolute speculation. Even at the top.

That said, Mango PP are still the best! For real, I don't know how people take those Apex matches seriously

 

[Vts]

yeah but idk if i'd put pp as 2nd though, then again idk who i would put as 2nd

 

[The March Hare]

Armada has earned his first place in the world. You don't have to like it but two international tournaments has shown that as of now, he's the best player. People might whine that that the others had off days, but part of being a good player is consistency, and if that's the only thing that makes mango and pp worse than Armada, then so be it. They're still worse because of it. They just need to make sure that even on their off days they're playing ****ING amazing. Which they most certainly weren't at apex.

 

[arbustos]

I like the distinction someone made between the player and the competitor. Armada is undoubtedly the best competitor, but I think he's a step behind Mango and PP as a player (which I believe is more important!).

This opinion has grown stalwart and irresistible after seeing so many of their matches.

 

[G. Vice]

Who's the "best" is kinda dumb when you consider that it all depends on the day.

For example. Clay is going to beat me probably 80 percent if not more of our matches. Why? Number one, I make crap decisions vs him, he's in my head, and losing to him for a year and a half straight while working my way up set up a mental precedent that I cannot break for some reason. Does this mean he's better than me at smash? I like to think not. Because in the same day he 3 stocks my ganon, he'll go off and get handled by players that I went even with that I played. (this happened at Intimikill vs Arc and DoH)

Using that logic, you can't say who's the straight up best, especially basing it strictly off of tournament results. You can say who does good vs who typically, and you can tell by general observation who's playing well that day, and obviously if someone amazing is playing like crap then they aren't going to win a tourney. That'd be like saying that Michael Jordan wasn't the best player on the Bulls team(if not all time) just because he only scored 24 points and Scotty Pippen had the game of his life and scored 30.

If you are going to have to label the "best" you gotta look at how good they are playing when they are obviously on their game. Bad days will happen to us all, Arby is a living breathing example of that. Lots of talent, and when he's on point (unless any of the smashers here in Arkansas are exceptionally on point that day as well) there's usually not many wins for us to be had. Therefore when people who play smash ask me to my face who's the best in the state, I'll say Arby. ONLY because he's shown the most potential out of any of us. Yeah, I'm pretty much consistently "good" with Ganon. And I have my combo video moments as we all do, but that doesn't mean I'm the best because I'm the most consistent. On a good day, Arby will beat me 60-40 (if I too am playing good) and worse than that if I'm not on point.

By the logic of taking every man at his best?

I'd say that you're top five players( in no particular order due to many extenuating circumstances) would be:

Mango, Hungry Box, Dr. PP, Armada, Ice

Although I'm not sure about the 5th...haven't seen much of him, but his explosive matches truly were impressive.

 

[The March Hare]

Isn't Armada the best because he beats everyone? Sure if he had a weakness against certain players you might have a point. But he beats all characters and all players in the world with just the same poise.

I'd put M2K over ice as of now. M2k has been around a while though and Ice is up and coming so M2k better watch his back for that 5th place. XD

 

[Yo$himan]

Hey arby, my sister might still be planing on making the trip to little rock tomorrow and I was planning on going with her. She doesn't know how long she is staying, but some time is better than no time. She may stay until sunday or end up leaving the same day. Wanna play melee? Is so what time are you out of class or when is a good time for me to come over? If you can't harbor me than I'll probably chill at seif's.

 

[arbustos]

Isn't Armada the best because he beats everyone? Sure if he had a weakness against certain players you might have a point. But he beats all characters and all players in the world with just the same poise.

Except he doesn't. Hbox is still a big question mark because he beats the character Armada uses to beat everyone else. Mango and PP have both shown they are more than capable of beating him in friendlies and tournament. A good number of people have made him sweat.

I've formed my opinion watching every match uploaded that the three have played, as well as a fair amount in person. You give special attention to results. We're just approaching the issue with significance to different data.

 

[chamberlin]

I like the distinction someone made between the player and the competitor. Armada is undoubtedly the best competitor, but I think he's a step behind Mango and PP as a player (which I believe is more important!).

Tell me the difference between competitor and player? As in you like Mango and PP's personality or playstyle better? I don't understand the difference here.

 

[chamberlin]

I also watch every tournament match that comes up (except the ones that may have been on a livestream that I missed that weren't put where I could watch them). That, and matches between scrubs that I don't care to watch.

You seem to always be thinking that all I ever look at is results and not other stuff... I have my own opinions as to how people play and who's really better, they just happen to be different than yours.

 

[arbustos]

Tell me the difference between competitor and player? As in you like Mango and PP's personality or playstyle better? I don't understand the difference here.

The best competitor has the overall best performance in (recent) major tournaments. The best player has the actual highest skill. It's a pretty subjective call.

A Swede said that Mango might very well be most skilled, but that doesn't make him the best. For various reasons, his results in the last couple years don't support him being the best competitor. I think being a better player is more important, but that's just my opinion. It's a useful distinction though.

You seem to always be thinking that all I ever look at is results and not other stuff... I have my own opinions as to how people play and who's really better, they just happen to be different than yours.

What...? I was responding to Adam there, not you

After you said your list wasn't drawn off of recent results, I didn't mention it again. Although it is very deceiving (Armada Mango Hbox PP mirrors the collective results of Genesis and Apex). Now Adam, on the other hand, straight out said he's most attentive to results - Armada has beaten everyone.

 

[G. Vice]

Clay = touchy

Although Clay, you have used that logic on me before. That you beat me(thusly putting me out of the tourney) and placing higher, and have stated you were better than I when questioned by the general public, and gave me the "I got 3rd you got 5th" speech when I contested it.

I think it's subjective. But you can definitely put a top 20 and up I think. But as far as who is THE best, I don't think that's as simple to qualify. So I'm not disagreeing with either of you when you state that you have varying opinions of the "best." Also Adam, I agree. I put M2K above Ice as well, but for some reason M2K slipped my mind when I listed my "top 5."

 

[The March Hare]

Except he doesn't. Hbox is still a big question mark because he beats the character Armada uses to beat everyone else. Mango and PP have both shown they are more than capable of beating him in friendlies and tournament. A good number of people have made him sweat.

I've formed my opinion watching every match uploaded that the three have played, as well as a fair amount in person. You give special attention to results. We're just approaching the issue with significance to different data.

The fact that Armada switches to young link to beat hbox is merely because of his character. He believes that the peach matchup against jiggly puff is unwinnable so he switches to a hard counter. Every player does this on some level. People making him sweat and him still winning is just a sign of his skill. Armada doesn't allow upsets to happen. Sure his games and even sets might be close but the end result is him winning.

As you mentioned, your way of judging the best player is extremely subjective, and the only objective data points we can have in a competitive game is the results of major tournaments.

 

[Yo$himan]

derp pa doo doo pop, my sister's final decision is that we aren't going. It's really annoying because I really want to play melee. I asked that guy Sam to play, but he hasn't responded. :'(

Hey arby, you like the artist Damien Rice?

 

[arbustos]

The fact that Armada switches to young link to beat hbox is merely because of his character. He believes that the peach matchup against jiggly puff is unwinnable so he switches to a hard counter. Every player does this on some level. People making him sweat and him still winning is just a sign of his skill. Armada doesn't allow upsets to happen. Sure his games and even sets might be close but the end result is him winning.

As you mentioned, your way of judging the best player is extremely subjective, and the only objective data points we can have in a competitive game is the results of major tournaments.

Those objective data points only allow for shallow observations. And you're dealing with a sample size of THREE. Nothing conclusive can realistically be drawn from this, but an incredible significance is applied by the community because we don't have much else to work with. Well, that still sounds like bad science to me. It's just as reasonable to me to judge these players based on the numerous friendlies they have had at each national, as well as their friendly and bracket performances against other high level players. In my observation, Mango is clearly the best (not to say he is supremely dominant or head and shoulders above the others).

Mango absolutely destroys anyone in rankings 5 through whatever. He generally does better against the other top players than they do amongst each other, and his loses are always close. He also has a positive record against anyone in friendlies.

 

[The March Hare]

Those objective data points only allow for shallow observations. And you're dealing with a sample size of THREE. Nothing conclusive can realistically be drawn from this, but an incredible significance is applied by the community because we don't have much else to work with. Well, that still sounds like bad science to me. It's just as reasonable to me to judge these players based on the numerous friendlies they have had at each national, as well as their friendly and bracket performances against other high level players. In my observation, Mango is clearly the best (not to say he is supremely dominant or head and shoulders above the others).

Mango absolutely destroys anyone in rankings 5 through whatever. He generally does better against the other top players than they do amongst each other, and his loses are always close. He also has a positive record against anyone in friendlies.

I said the results of major tournaments. This includes all the matches in them and the pools and who each of the players lost too and beat. This actually makes it quite a large sample size even if more data would be nice.

Friendlies mean nothing to me. And mango dominating the top players in America more than Armada does is merely his experience with them. He's played with them more and seen more of their games than Armada can possibly have.

 

[arbustos]

I said the results of major tournaments. This includes all the matches in them and the pools and who each of the players lost too and beat. This actually makes it quite a large sample size even if more data would be nice.

Friendlies mean nothing to me. And mango dominating the top players in America more than Armada does is merely his experience with them. He's played with them more and seen more of their games than Armada can possibly have.

No, it's a tiny sample size. The only relevant data we have are the late bracket matches at three nationals, which is nothing to base a conclusive opinion on. No active competitive community would make any claims with that. Only speculation. Especially when Mango didn't try at Pound, and Genesis/Apex had other complications. Mango losing to Taj prevented him from getting two sets with Armada, although grand finals was super close anyway. And Taj beating him doesn't mean anything considering losers finals. Apex holds very little weight in the discussion. So that's really... one or two tournaments to work with? One of which PP was undeniably ill with the flu?

You're delusional if you don't count their friendlies. Like they would waste the precious little time they get to play each other every year because it's not a tournament match. You can realize a lot about each player across those matches. I don't agree with the experience argument either. Mango only sees these people at the same nationals that Armada attends, and familiarity doesn't mean as much as you think. They adapt, you know. Mango has played M2k for a million hours, but he still doesn't dominate him. He owns everyone because he's that much better.


look what I found! http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/MyAnime/?user=Kirbykaze&categ=3

 

[arbustos]

derp pa doo doo pop, my sister's final decision is that we aren't going. It's really annoying because I really want to play melee. I asked that guy Sam to play, but he hasn't responded. :'(

Hey arby, you like the artist Damien Rice?

There's a guy in the Devour 2 comments on Youtube who said he's forming a smash club in Fayetteville. Maybe you could send that account a PM or something.

I haven't heard enough to say. I grouped together certain artists a long time ago because Tara and Hillary on the quiz bowl team liked them, but I never got around to actually listening. Damien Rice, Sufjan Stevens, Iron & Wine, Elliot Smith, Ben Folds Five. I know they're supposed to be really good, but time is master of us all... or is it laziness? The last two especially interest me.

 

[The March Hare]

No, it's a tiny sample size. The only relevant data we have are the late bracket matches at three nationals

All the data is relevant. We're comparing how players do against each other and the rest of the best of the pro melee community. The fact that mango 2-0's someone that Armada pulls a 2-1 against even early in the bracket is significant. Or maybe mango is brought to a close 1 stock against a guy armada regularly 3 stocks. Mango having to pull out fox against Taj says as much about mango as Armada pulling out young link against Hbox says about armada. More in fact. The fact that mango had to change his character to beat a marth that isn't near the top 5 in the world says quite a deal. Even if he did dominate him ridiculously with fox.

Even if they're playing serious friendlies, there is still a different atmosphere, less tension, not as much drive for victory. These things change the entire playing field in a tournament. I know you don't take tournaments seriously when you're playing, but there's a difference of several thousand dollars on the line for these top players. This will effect the game, making it different from a friendly. No matter how serious that friendly is.

Mango has played at more national tournaments than Armada and has been playing longer. Familiarity means a great GREAT deal. Let's say for example a certain someone always rolls sideways when he feels threatened in anyway. Other certain someones take advantage of it by simply doing some ******** powerful move in expectation of it. This is somewhat of a straw man. But my point is that everyone has habits and they're harder to find or take advantage of on a high level of play, but they're still there to be abused by players who are familiar with them.

 

[arbustos]

All the data is relevant. We're comparing how players do against each other and the rest of the best of the pro melee community. The fact that mango 2-0's someone that Armada pulls a 2-1 against even early in the bracket is significant. Or maybe mango is brought to a close 1 stock against a guy armada regularly 3 stocks. Mango having to pull out fox against Taj says as much about mango as Armada pulling out young link against Hbox says about armada. More in fact. The fact that mango had to change his character to beat a marth that isn't near the top 5 in the world says quite a deal. Even if he did dominate him ridiculously with fox.

Even if they're playing serious friendlies, there is still a different atmosphere, less tension, not as much drive for victory. These things change the entire playing field in a tournament. I know you don't take tournaments seriously when you're playing, but there's a difference of several thousand dollars on the line for these top players. This will effect the game, making it different from a friendly. No matter how serious that friendly is.

Mango has played at more national tournaments than Armada and has been playing longer. Familiarity means a great GREAT deal. Let's say for example a certain someone always rolls sideways when he feels threatened in anyway. Other certain someones take advantage of it by simply doing some ******** powerful move in expectation of it. This is somewhat of a straw man. But my point is that everyone has habits and they're harder to find or take advantage of on a high level of play, but they're still there to be abused by players who are familiar with them.

Three tournaments really isn't much data. These people are playing like 8 sets total where all kinds of extenuating factors could come into play, as opposed to just playing a guy for hours straight like they do in their FRIENDLIES. For example, at Apex Mango didn't get any warm-up and his performance against Armada and Hbox resulted.

He also co-mains the spacies, so switching off against one of the best vs Falco players in the world doesn't really mean anything. He isn't favored to beat M2k or PP with Fox, so...

They play more like themselves in those hours of friendlies than the 5 matches of high-tension finals. Watch them all, and you get a better picture of who they really are as players. It's also obvious when they are playing a joke match, so that's not an issue. Mango simply comes out ahead every time. He destroyed Hbox in some friendlies at Apex, then lost to him in finals while playing way under par. Being warmed up, much less against the same guy for an hour, produces way more convincing results in my eyes than being thrown into a Bo5 having only played a handful of matches in the last hour or three.

Alright first of all, they've both been entering tournaments around the same amount of time. Secondly, most of the current threats reached high level well after Genesis, when Mango had stopped traveling. So he and Armada have seen these guys at the same times. In any case, it doesn't really matter because reading and adapting is what high level is all about. Those two especially focus on manipulating and abusing habits, so Mango's supposed familiarity with his opponents is a moot point. Anyway, the people who are good enough to challenge the top will change between tourneys and in the matches themselves.

 

[arbustos]

Hey Seif, Will is going to be here tonight and at least tomorrow, so do you want to go eat lunch or something? I know you have to work, and that's the only thing I can think of for some male-male bonding.