Arizona Brawl Rankings and Discussion (7/14/08)

[-Ka-]

Wow, Goop. Thanks for the nom.

But we must also devise a system of ranking people...

Agreed. If I do become an actual panelist I'd make it a responsibility of mine to seek out and firmly understand other state's ranking systems and how they work. All would be presented to the rest of the Arizona panelists and we would decide the best (and of course, fair) way of ranking our community.

I'd also have aspirations as an active panelist to make sure EVERYONE in AZ knows how our ranking system would work, how (and why) the people who are on it are on it, and of course how someone can get on it.

And there you have it. Goop earlier stated he didn't want to seem like he was self-promoting himself when I did just that, lol. But really the things I'd do if I were panelist are really just qualities and aspirations I would want my panelists to have.

 

[EoW]

Wow, Goop. Thanks for the nom.



Agreed. If I do become an actual panelist I'd make it a responsibility of mine to seek out and firmly understand other state's ranking systems and how they work. All would be presented to the rest of the Arizona panelists and we would decide the best (and of course, fair) way of ranking our community.

uh ka for president?

 

[Jar'd]

I'd vote for him.

 

[sLicK.tdf]

who's going to be his monica lewinski

 

[fark]

if anything ka and bstick should not have changed because they both won first once and jake was able to take him to the very last match and stock
and eow should not be 4th at all because he got dead last at goops
how does that move him to 4th over abide?
abide placed in the top 15 at goops and then the top 4 yesterday
makes no sense at all
im all ready starting to see that this will be in favor of friends which is bs
this was not discussed with the other panelists
and taj should be taken off after seeing how he was towards azc
this **** is wack

 

[dookdigity]

Does that ranking mean I am 3rd? or does it just mean that I happen to be the 3rd person and "new" on the list (as in that list isn't a ranking but just a list that isn't in order)?

And also Hello I am dookdigity aka Mike Green

 

[Tee ay eye]

if anything ka and bstick should not have changed because they both won first once and jake was able to take him to the very last match and stock
and eow should not be 4th at all because he got dead last at goops
how does that move him to 4th over abide?
abide placed in the top 15 at goops and then the top 4 yesterday
makes no sense at all
im all ready starting to see that this will be in favor of friends which is bs
this was not discussed with the other panelists
and taj should be taken off after seeing how he was towards azc
this **** is wack

EoW got dead last at Goop's because he left because he had stuff to do and didn't feel like playing all the way through the tourney (especially after that whole ****up with the bracket too)

And maybe, just MAYBE, his loss to Jake kinda hurt his spirits a bit at that tourney.

Also, yeah, maybe Steve should be higher than EoW by like, one place (maybe if there's a point system like the old way, it should be like, Abide 20, Eow 18 for example)

p.s. IP bans are fail.

 

[fark]

i also think its wack that light and dook digity are so high
light got last at goops as well and dook digity wasnt even at goops
and leaving the tourney still counts as a loss
if anything they should be between 10 and 15 or something like that

 

[Duff0]

Light owns

 

[Tee ay eye]

i also think its wack that light and dook digity are so high
light got last at goops as well and dook digity wasnt even at goops
and leaving the tourney still counts as a loss
if anything they should be between 10 and 15 or something like that

Well, Light left Goop's too. Nickn00b paid him 10 bucks to make up for the cash Goop wouldn't pay him back.

Uh, yeah, even though he left, I don't think it should harm his ranking, because it's like, if you flat out DON'T go to a tourney, that shouldn't harm your ranking (granted, it will raise the rankings of the people that DO go, ergo, it will lower yours respective to theirs)

 

[fark]

it doesnt matter if they left
the lost their matches
they shouldnt have registered for it if they were gonna leave
also not going to that tourney changed peoples rankings
so it should matter

 

[Tee ay eye]

Um, their ranking should be brought down because they simply lost due to a technicality? They registered and left later because of the whole reset bracket thing. At the time that they registered, they didn't know that something that was going to make them want to leave. The rankings are supposed to rank people by their skill, so how does it display someone's skill at all if they weren't even there? Just let that tourney give more ranking weight for the people that were there. Like, if EoW tied with someone at this tournament, that person would be 1 spot higher than him on the rankings because he participated at Goop's.

Also, some may think that since Brandon got 1st here and Ka got 1st at Goop's, they should be even on the rankings. I personally think that the more recent one should have slightly more weight because the rankings are supposed to show who IS the best, not who WAS the best. Sure, his victory at Goop's counts for something, but maybe Ka was better AT THAT TIME, and Brandon got better and surpassed him, meaning that he is better right now, which should be the purpose of the rankings.

 

[Statistics]

I guess I'll be in the top 10 very soon, then.

I take Ka down to the last stock every time (and lose, but I'm working on that)

 

[ABIDE]

I guess I'll be in the top 10 very soon, then.

I take Ka down to the last stock every time (and lose, but I'm working on that)

Everyone takes Jake down to the last stock.

Its frustrating.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I guess I'll be in the top 10 very soon, then.

I take Ka down to the last stock every time (and lose, but I'm working on that)

Um, that's the way it is. Pretty much every singles match goes to the last stock.

 

[maXXXpower]

Not when you're maXXXpower.

 

[Goop]

Don't even bother looking at those rankings on the first page. I am not sure what Yamer is doing there but I think he is trying to do a purely merit based ranking system but with his own revisions. In any case it is not the consensus of anyone but himself.

I will talk to Yamer and others to see their interest in the panel, and try to plan a date after AZOne2 to make these rankings. The final list ought to be sent to Alt to compile since I think he would be the best non-panelist to sum up the final list. I think his role should purely be that of a tallier and should have no ability to effect the final list other then to be a neutral party to take the numbers.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

thanks for the nomination as a panelist for southern az, goop. i've been pretty active around here in playing, i just haven't been able to make it to phoenix tournies cause you know, it's 2 hours away. i have played pretty much everyone in tucson (except jy but i dunno how active he is) so i know about skill levels here and i've got some new people i'm talking to and i'll be playing against them too.

 

[EoW]

lalalalala poor ole me :*(

 

[Sao]

Had yamer not manipulated the seedings at the last azc tournament I am positive I would have climbed higher than 9th place.. The whole day everyone would walk up to me and say you're up against justin next, but instead you put me up against KA? Morty up against Abide? What for, so that instead of letting the tournament run its natural course placings are decided by the person behind the computer deciding that his friends will get easier matches until there are no easy matches to hand out...

as far as brandon being moved up to first now I think you are jumping the gun a little fast, a point system really needs to be implemented. I know this type of data would be really hard to gather but might i suggest a win/loss system. lets look at the ka vs brandon in finals win loss ratio. KA 11/4 BSTIK 4/11 Brandon #1 in az? This is the total in both goops/azc which seems to be where all these ranking decisions have been made.

Now I don't really care that I am on the top 15 nor do I think KA cares that he was dethroned? It just motivates us to get that much better. But I do have a problem with people that do what I have stated above, and if this happens at the az one two step expect to see a lot of pissed off people that traveled very far to be there.

 

[In2D]

I know what you are saying sao, I was moved from playing Jar'd in the first match at the bottom of the bracket to having to either play my friend or KA second match. I know I should have placed better than 17th because I know I'm better than that.

If the top 5 people are all friends and this is what happens in every tourney we play in, of course they are going to end up placing in the top 5 most of the time if they never have to play each other and with the matches being manipulated like you stated sao.

Personally if this is what is going to happen at all the phoenix tournies, then its not really worth my time to travel all the way up there and waste the gas and entrance fee just to have people favor others.

 

[Duff0]

Yea with them ^^^^

Although my matches weren't manipulated, I had to play John5 second round :'(

Needless to say, I got owned

 

[D4rk_Sh3ik]

Light posting:

The reason Yamer redid the bracket was because Duffo (I think) wasn't entered in the bracket so he had to redo the whole thing at the beginning. Yamer asked everyone to check the bracket to see if they were up against their friends after that.

 

[AltF4]

1) No Johns.

2) If the same group of people keep winning tournaments while never having to play each other until the end: That means they're better than everyone else! If someone outside their group were better, they wouldn't win.

3) Don't pay too much attention to power rankings right now. We'll get together a better list after AzOneTwo.

4) The Random tournament didn't have a whole lot of people. Eventually you're going to have to play someone you know. How could you possibly run a tournament where nobody plays people they already know? It's impossible.

 

[Duff0]

Yea that was me and I apologise

EoW said they had a perfect 32 man bracket until I payed a little late >.<

 

[ABIDE]

Ya, it was Duffo that wasn't added to the bracket. I had to play Duffo in the losers and the winner of that had to play Sao. I wasn't sure what happened, but I ended up having to play Tim instead of Sao.

As far as me playing Morty though we were almost done with the losers bracket so it was bound to happen sometime I think.

 

[Tee ay eye]

1) No Johns.

2) If the same group of people keep winning tournaments while never having to play each other until the end: That means they're better than everyone else! If someone outside their group were better, they wouldn't win.

3) Don't pay too much attention to power rankings right now. We'll get together a better list after AzOneTwo.

4) The Random tournament didn't have a whole lot of people. Eventually you're going to have to play someone you know. How could you possibly run a tournament where nobody plays people they already know? It's impossible.

I think your #2 isn't exactly right. If the two best people at the tourney played each other in the first round, then they'd be isolated from each other (one would be ****** loser's, the other would be ****** winner's) and would play each other in the end again. But um, I think that the two best people would just be fortunate to not have to play each other because the winner's bracket keeps getting smaller and smaller (if they didn't play yet) and they'd probably eventually have to play each other again.

Then again, my example is pretty weird.

 

[ABIDE]

The bracket was manipulated in the tourney, but it was only because everyone seemed to be getting placed against their own friends and what not.

Maybe Yamer should post the actual bracket so we can see what actually happened.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

this sounds like the seeding drama after the tournament i hosted for melee last year.

 

[AltF4]

Seeding is always a funny business. The best thing to do as a host is make sure the initial set up is as good as possible and then just stick with that no matter what. Switching people around mid (or end) tournament can get hairy for obvious reasons. (People will suspect cheating)

But all of the players have to realize that if they didn't win, it's because someone beat them in a fair set. Twice in fact. So unless you're name is at the top of the list, someone was clearly better than you that day. Seedings don't change that. No johns.

 

[In2D]

Yes, I'm not saying that they aren't better and that they shouldn't be there, I'm just saying that if every time they were supposed to play each other they switched opponents then of course they are going to place higher.

Lets say the 2 really good players who are friends end up losing their first matches and are matched up in their second match of the losers bracket. Now instead of them playing each other they get to switch opponents. Just for the purpose of this example the 3rd best and 4th best in the losers bracket get matched up with them. Instead of the 1st and 2nd best of the losers bracket playing each other and knocking one out, they get put on different ends of the bracket and win all the way through the end because they are in fact better than the rest.

Now sure that didn't sound like a very good example, but it made more sense in my head than before I typed it out.

There is a reason that tournament brackets are random, to make them as fair as possible with no bias for any certain person in the tourney.

Go ahead, call no Johns tell me to stop complaining and just accept it, but I feel that once the bracket is set it shouldn't be messed with for any reason.

Oh and don't say it was because of Duff paying late, they ended up adding another part to the bracket because someone else, Jamie, wasn't added into it either.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Yes, I'm not saying that they aren't better and that they shouldn't be there, I'm just saying that if every time they were supposed to play each other they switched opponents then of course they are going to place higher.

Lets say the 2 really good players who are friends end up losing their first matches and are matched up in their second match of the losers bracket. Now instead of them playing each other they get to switch opponents. Just for the purpose of this example the 3rd best and 4th best in the losers bracket get matched up with them. Instead of the 1st and 2nd best of the losers bracket playing each other and knocking one out, they get put on different ends of the bracket and win all the way through the end because they are in fact better than the rest.

Now sure that didn't sound like a very good example, but it made more sense in my head than before I typed it out.

There is a reason that tournament brackets are random, to make them as fair as possible with no bias for any certain person in the tourney.

Go ahead, call no Johns tell me to stop complaining and just accept it, but I feel that once the bracket is set it shouldn't be messed with for any reason.

Oh and don't say it was because of Duff paying late, they ended up adding another part to the bracket because someone else, Jamie, wasn't added into it either.

Also, tournament hosts usually change the bracket around from the original one so people don't have to play their friends/crewmates.

 

[Duff0]

I think they added her because I payed late and I didn't have a match.

They could've made the bracket 64 and given everybody a bye but one person but that didn't happen

 

[Goop]

Yes, I'm not saying that they aren't better and that they shouldn't be there, I'm just saying that if every time they were supposed to play each other they switched opponents then of course they are going to place higher.

Lets say the 2 really good players who are friends end up losing their first matches and are matched up in their second match of the losers bracket. Now instead of them playing each other they get to switch opponents. Just for the purpose of this example the 3rd best and 4th best in the losers bracket get matched up with them. Instead of the 1st and 2nd best of the losers bracket playing each other and knocking one out, they get put on different ends of the bracket and win all the way through the end because they are in fact better than the rest.

Now sure that didn't sound like a very good example, but it made more sense in my head than before I typed it out.

There is a reason that tournament brackets are random, to make them as fair as possible with no bias for any certain person in the tourney.

Go ahead, call no Johns tell me to stop complaining and just accept it, but I feel that once the bracket is set it shouldn't be messed with for any reason.

Oh and don't say it was because of Duff paying late, they ended up adding another part to the bracket because someone else, Jamie, wasn't added into it either.

I had the same argument with Alt before how random seeding is the most fair but the fact of the matter is if you seed people randomly you only guarantee the first best and second best player to meet in the finals, as opposed to have the best players to have a chance to go to the finals. Why should the 3rd or 4th best player there meet the 1st or 2nd best player there in the winners or loser first round and be eliminated from the tournament so early? Thats not really fair for him since he clearly could have beaten anyone there but the first or second best and so deserves to have a separation in the brackets from the players who are the best there.

While it might be fair to the newer people at the tournament if they get an random bracket it does not reward merit it rewards luck, and there is already enough of that in brawl, e.g. tripping.

Read up on some bracket theory. Alt has an article on the smash wiki and on the general discussion I think. If you don't want to read that look up an article on a google search on bracket theory and seeding. It's not just some method for people to ensure that scrubs get placed last it is just a way to reward merit.

 

[In2D]

I see what you are saying goop but there is no basis for placing people initially in the bracket as in seedings from a "regular" season like they would with something like the NCAA tourney. Yeah I don't like having to play my friends in a tourney, but I don't like having the brackets mixed around with in the beginning of the tourney even more after its a random placing.

I'd rather let it all be random and watch the tourney run itself. And come August when I host Bi-weeklies at my house, this is how i'm going to do it.

 

[ChaosTheory]

This is Corey:

I think that having it completely random sucks, whether or not the good person goes all the way through.

Say for instance you and Yammer go all the way to Spain for a 1000 man Brawl tournament. You had to save up to go there. The brackets are all randomly generated and when you find out you first match it's.... you and Yammer. So, let's say he beats you. You go to the loser's and fight one guy and then... you have to play Yammer again because he lost his next match. One of you gets out third round. This is what happened to AZ at the last big tournament. All the brackets and pools were filled with AZ side-by-side. It's no fun to play the same people you have always played.

 

[Tee ay eye]

It's not just some method for people to ensure that scrubs get placed last it is just a way to reward merit.

Rewarding merit ensures that scrubs get placed last, which is probably a good thing because the purpose of tourney is to accurately depict who is the best. Of course, it's next to impossible to perfectly display that, but I think we've got it as good as we can.

 

[Yamer]

As far as changing the bracket the only changes that were made was on the losing bracket side when someone was sent to losers. The program essentialy randomly picks a spot for a loser to fill and it allows the host to change spots that are equal. So, when people came up to me saying they were hitting their friends in the losers I put them in a new spot.

 

[Duff0]

No it doesn't pick a random spot. There are letters next to each match and the loser goes to the same letter on the losers bracket.

 

[AltF4]

Goop is correct, I have a stickied thread in the Tournament Discussion room. You can read that for info on the theory behind seeding and brackets and stuff.

But as for seeding, we certainly CAN do seeding. Tio lets you seed by skill and by location. We can separate crews out (as much as is possible, mind you!) and also seed by skill. We've got a rankings list going right now and we can use that for seeding. Even a slightly inaccurate power rankings list is better than completely random.


Also try to keep things in perspective. I used to play Warhammer competitively and there were some SERIOUS cheating scandals with that. The guy who ran a store in Tempe used to charge for tournaments, enter in his own tournament, give himself perfect scores (Warhammer is an interesting game), win his own tournament, and keep the money for himself. Nothing like that is going on. It's just a dispute about who should have played who.