Are the melee characters going to receive further changes?

[Fortress]

Can't tell if talking about d-throw....

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I totes meant Side-B

Spoiler

Yeah, dthrow.

 

[JediLink]

Sheik's down throw was already nerfed in the PAL version. Just saying.

 

[Burning Boom]

My personal take on the Jiggs thing is that she's relativley fine, maybe a couple minor buffs to her more useless moves (making her a little more versatile) would be good. There's no reason she HAS to be top tier, even if she was in Melee. Somebody has got to be on bottom, and somebody's got to be on top, that just kind of how it works, doesn't really matter who's where as long as it's possible for the bottom to be played well. At least, that's my take on balance.

 

[DrinkingFood]

We could always give jigglypuff an ftilt
i'm like 95% positive she doesn't even have one

 

[GreenMunchkin]

For Jiggs, what if they made you able to mash out of Rest/Sing like you can if you get stunned/fall asleep?

 

[MagnesD3]

For Jiggs, what if they made you able to mash out of Rest/Sing like you can if you get stunned/fall asleep?

I think this would be fair tbh.

It's dumb she gets punished for killing the opponent, random rests could still easily be punished since there is still plenty of time to hit them even with the mashing Wakeup mechanic the punishes would just be less severe.

 

[MonkUnit]

That would significantly reduce the amount of punishment that puff receives if you failed to hit with rest. It would also make things like coming from the respawn platform to punish puff much harder or not possible if puff was able to mash out of rest in time.

 

[MattNF]

I would like to see Jiggly's up-b made to be actually useful (outside of edge canceling it). Have you considered adding the Smash64 advanced "teleport" technique which works with her upb?

If you don't know, it's basically a sort of a superwavedash-like movement technique that ends with her using her sing move. It's goes nearly the perfect distance for when people techroll away from you, which would reward hard reads but still make it a bit risky to use.

It wouldn't be a huge enough buff to make her top tier, but it would definitely give her a tiny boost that she needs. She just doesn't stand up to the new metagame in Project M unfortunately.

Here's a video of the teleport technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F CkRtKck30U (remove space due to smashboards censoring the link) Keep in mind her rest hitbox is much larger in Smash64 so the rest would be a bit harder to land in PM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gH4z7gRpLY Here's a video with the sing move incorporated. Notice how she slides slightly farther while using it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

If puff needs buffs, it's definitely not to stuff she has that don't need buffs
that's like saying lets give bair more knockback

How about sing only lasts for one iteration of the sleep-hitbox instead of 3?
Perhaps pressing B once/twice more will finish out the animation as it currently exists.
Maybe even give it a cool property, like windboxes, or reflecting projectiles
Maybe make it heal her like would make sense for rest but can't be done because rest is already good

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If puff needs buffs, it's definitely not to stuff she has that don't need buffs
that's like saying lets give bair more knockback

Wouldn't that ruin her combos/WoP?

 

[GreenMunchkin]

That would significantly reduce the amount of punishment that puff receives if you failed to hit with rest. It would also make things like coming from the respawn platform to punish puff much harder or not possible if puff was able to mash out of rest in time.

Spoiler

 

[Burning Boom]

If puff needs buffs, it's definitely not to stuff she has that don't need buffs
that's like saying lets give bair more knockback

How about sing only lasts for one iteration of the sleep-hitbox instead of 3?
Perhaps pressing B once/twice more will finish out the animation as it currently exists.
Maybe even give it a cool property, like windboxes, or reflecting projectiles
Maybe make it heal her like would make sense for rest but can't be done because rest is already good

I think a windbox on Sing would be rather odd. It would effectivley push the opponet away from the hitbox the user is trying to utilize.

 

[MagnesD3]

If puff needs buffs, it's definitely not to stuff she has that don't need buffs
that's like saying lets give bair more knockback

How about sing only lasts for one iteration of the sleep-hitbox instead of 3?
Perhaps pressing B once/twice more will finish out the animation as it currently exists.
Maybe even give it a cool property, like windboxes, or reflecting projectiles
Maybe make it heal her like would make sense for rest but can't be done because rest is already good

I agree with buffing Sing as well, I personally would like it to become used in game similar to Dk's B down.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wouldn't that ruin her combos/WoP?

Not at all, it'd only make it work better at lower percents

persanally

pers-anally?

 

[MLGF]

Why not just do the same thing as Lucas' neutral b and have it so that Jigg's only falls asleep if she misses the down b?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why not just do the same thing as Lucas' neutral b and have it so that Jigg's only falls asleep if she misses the down b?

Because the game then becomes "weave around frantically while mashing down-B". Risk/Reward ratio WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY LOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

The thing is, most buffs suggested don't really improve Jiggs significantly or fold well into her core design.

This is mostly because her core design is extremely polarizing and F***ING STUPID.

That fact that she was intended as and is a joke character is now more painfully obvious in P:M than it was in Melee.

 

[Terotrous]

The fundamental problem with Jiggs is that she can't get in, so buffing Rest doesn't really help, because it's useless until you get in. The other specials are the problem.

I've come up with some various ways you could buff Jiggs, but to be honest I'm not crazy about any of them. Here are some possibilities.

1) Rollout becomes jump cancellable. This would definitely give her a way to get in, she now basically has a spindash for launching her powerful aerials, and we can already see how deadly Sonic is with this. The problem is I feel this would make her too much like Sonic. It would also completely dominate her playstyle, whereas we really just want a minor tweak.

2) Pound now creates a tiny explosion or something in front of Jiggs' fist. Basically, this just exists to give her a solid disjoint that she can use to play footsies with the Ivysaurs and Mewtwos of the world. This would probably work and not change Jiggs too much, but I feel it's kind of a lame answer.

3) Rather than affecting a radial area around Jiggs, Sing now creates a projectile that puts the opponent to sleep if it hits. Basically, it'd throw out a little musical note projectile, like the animation from the older games. This would be a huge buff, possibly even to the point of instantly making Jiggs top tier, since Jiggs would basically get a free kill any time this hit with Rest. The projectile would have to be fairly slow and easily avoided, and you'd likely have to nerf Rest's kill power.


I also believe an important part of fixing Jigglypuff involves increasing Rest's hitbox, but making it vastly less powerful. I feel like the hitbox should probably be her entire body (or at least a much larger area inside her body), but it shouldn't kill until around 80 / 90%. As it stands, Rest's extreme power / extreme unreliability makes her far too volatile. You shouldn't either get a free kill or lose a stock based on a correct read on DI.

 

[MagnesD3]

Not at all, it'd only make it work better at lower percents


pers-anally?

Typing on my phone is difficult...

 

[MagnesD3]

The fundamental problem with Jiggs is that she can't get in, so buffing Rest doesn't really help, because it's useless until you get in. The other specials are the problem.

I've come up with some various ways you could buff Jiggs, but to be honest I'm not crazy about any of them. Here are some possibilities.

1) Rollout becomes jump cancellable. This would definitely give her a way to get in, she now basically has a spindash for launching her powerful aerials, and we can already see how deadly Sonic is with this. The problem is I feel this would make her too much like Sonic. It would also completely dominate her playstyle, whereas we really just want a minor tweak.

2) Pound now creates a tiny explosion or something in front of Jiggs' fist. Basically, this just exists to give her a solid disjoint that she can use to play footsies with the Ivysaurs and Mewtwos of the world. This would probably work and not change Jiggs too much, but I feel it's kind of a lame answer.

3) Rather than affecting a radial area around Jiggs, Sing now creates a projectile that puts the opponent to sleep if it hits. Basically, it'd throw out a little musical note projectile, like the animation from the older games. This would be a huge buff, possibly even to the point of instantly making Jiggs top tier, since Jiggs would basically get a free kill any time this hit with Rest. The projectile would have to be fairly slow and easily avoided, and you'd likely have to nerf Rest's kill power.


I also believe an important part of fixing Jigglypuff involves increasing Rest's hitbox, but making it vastly less powerful. I feel like the hitbox should probably be her entire body (or at least a much larger area inside her body), but it shouldn't kill until around 80 / 90%. As it stands, Rest's extreme power / extreme unreliability makes her far too volatile. You shouldn't either get a free kill or lose a stock based on a correct read on DI.

I also feel Rollout should be cancelled with b or a jump, floaty fast momentum plus good aerials would be interesting.

 

[Burning Boom]

The fundamental problem with Jiggs is that she can't get in, so buffing Rest doesn't really help, because it's useless until you get in. The other specials are the problem.

I've come up with some various ways you could buff Jiggs, but to be honest I'm not crazy about any of them. Here are some possibilities.

1) Rollout becomes jump cancellable. This would definitely give her a way to get in, she now basically has a spindash for launching her powerful aerials, and we can already see how deadly Sonic is with this. The problem is I feel this would make her too much like Sonic. It would also completely dominate her playstyle, whereas we really just want a minor tweak.

2) Pound now creates a tiny explosion or something in front of Jiggs' fist. Basically, this just exists to give her a solid disjoint that she can use to play footsies with the Ivysaurs and Mewtwos of the world. This would probably work and not change Jiggs too much, but I feel it's kind of a lame answer.

3) Rather than affecting a radial area around Jiggs, Sing now creates a projectile that puts the opponent to sleep if it hits. Basically, it'd throw out a little musical note projectile, like the animation from the older games. This would be a huge buff, possibly even to the point of instantly making Jiggs top tier, since Jiggs would basically get a free kill any time this hit with Rest. The projectile would have to be fairly slow and easily avoided, and you'd likely have to nerf Rest's kill power.


I also believe an important part of fixing Jigglypuff involves increasing Rest's hitbox, but making it vastly less powerful. I feel like the hitbox should probably be her entire body (or at least a much larger area inside her body), but it shouldn't kill until around 80 / 90%. As it stands, Rest's extreme power / extreme unreliability makes her far too volatile. You shouldn't either get a free kill or lose a stock based on a correct read on DI.

I like the 3rd solution, but the PMBR has stated they can't add articles, thus we won't be getting any new projectiles.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Not everyone needs a projectile anyways. The game is already very heavy with characters with very good projectiles.
I'd like to see her be able to either take up space around her more effectively or to be able to force opponents to approach her.

The first can be achieved by giving her better grounded pokes, so she's not so vulnerable when on the ground or so reliant on mixing up when she lands to avoid punishment. Ftilt and dtilt are great candidates for improvement. Up-b could also be purposed for this use, as I mentioned earlier, as a three-part mix-up not unlike Link's fsmash, but in the form of Sing. Each press of B makes her sing, three presses total does the full animation as it is now. It might also make some sense to give sing an effect on aerial opponents- possible a moderate-strength windbox+tumble effect.

To make people approach her, idk. Usually the way to force that is with projectiles. Since it's not possible to add articles, that's not exactly feasible. Another way to do this could be to enable her to heal? Maybe up-b could be purposed to ALSO heal her? It wouldn't have to be a lot either. Since she dies so early, every percent she has is important to the opponent, and thus the more she heals the better for her. Even if she only healed at the rate Ivy does with nB it'd be threatening. also every time she hits back air she heals charges up her rest

I also believe an important part of fixing Jigglypuff involves increasing Rest's hitbox, but making it vastly less powerful. I feel like the hitbox should probably be her entire body (or at least a much larger area inside her body), but it shouldn't kill until around 80 / 90%. As it stands, Rest's extreme power / extreme unreliability makes her far too volatile. You shouldn't either get a free kill or lose a stock based on a correct read on DI.

That's like her ****ty brawl rest. It's boring. As it is, rest serves to make a plethora of jigg's other moves more dangerous. It forces opponents to be preemptively DIing away to avoid getting uthrown->rested or more commonly utilt->rested or up air->rested. So forcing that DI away makes her other moves more effective as positioning/gimping/killing tools. Fthrow is one such move- it's safer for a spacie to DI away when grabbed to avoid uthrow rest, so fthrow becomes a lower angle throw that either gives jiggs much more of the stage to work with, or positions them offstage for a gimp. Either that, or the opponent doesn't DI away and gets rested, probably several times if they repeat the mistake throughout the match. She would have more of these set-ups if her two less useful tilts were better.

 

[Terotrous]

I like the 3rd solution, but the PMBR has stated they can't add articles, thus we won't be getting any new projectiles.

It might be possible to reuse the musical notes that Sing already generates? I don't know exactly how it works.

Not everyone needs a projectile anyways. The game is already very heavy with characters with very good projectiles.
I'd like to see her be able to either take up space around her more effectively or to be able to force opponents to approach her.

No, it's not the only way, every character basically needs at least one of the following to compete though:

- A good projectile
- Great range / disjoints
- Great mobility

Jiggs has none of them, so she has lots of trouble with people who can keep her out effectively.

That's like her ****ty brawl rest. It's boring. As it is, rest serves to make a plethora of jigg's other moves more dangerous. It forces opponents to be preemptively DIing away to avoid getting uthrown->rested or more commonly utilt->rested or up air->rested. So forcing that DI away makes her other moves more effective as positioning/gimping/killing tools. Fthrow is one such move- it's safer for a spacie to DI away when grabbed to avoid uthrow rest, so fthrow becomes a lower angle throw that either gives jiggs much more of the stage to work with, or positions them offstage for a gimp. Either that, or the opponent doesn't DI away and gets rested, probably several times if they repeat the mistake throughout the match. She would have more of these set-ups if her two less useful tilts were better.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, but I feel like DI-ing up towards on Uthrow is just as safe as up away. In order to kill you with rest, she has to correctly guess which way you'll go, Rest's hitbox is too small to cover all DI options at any percent. In general, I never go for Rest as Jiggs, even in situations where a correct guess would allow me to land it, because the penalty for missing is too high. I'd much rather have a more reliable but less powerful rest, and I feel like this is better for overall game balance too because you'd reduce the number of situations where one good / bad guess decides the match.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I could easily see a stupid rollout that goes through most of the projectiles with SA that is jump cancelable
Possible bigger hit boxes to deal with projectiles MERBE more priority to
Jk
#Becazmerlay
#5everbad

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Ftilt and dtilt are great candidates for improvement. Up-b could also be purposed for this use, as I mentioned earlier, as a three-part mix-up not unlike Link's fsmash, but in the form of Sing. Each press of B makes her sing, three presses total does the full animation as it is now. It might also make some sense to give sing an effect on aerial opponents- possible a moderate-strength windbox+tumble effect.

Most of the suggestions for Jigglypuff are rather silly, but these suggestions are pretty nice.

I don't think that Jigglypuff needs any seriously radical changes, such as giving her a projectile or a jump-canceled Rollout. And while it would make sense in a Pokemon game, I don't think that Rest (or Sing for that matter) should heal Jigglypuff. Instead, minor tweaks to her currently existing moveset would be much more favorable as opposed to these highly debatable changes.


My suggestions for Jigglypuff would be as follows:

1) Jigglypuff's Forward Tilt would knock opponents vertically into the air, in a similar manner that Yoshi's Forward Tilt works. This would allow for more opportunities to land a Rest, as well as serving as a combo-starter for aerial combos.

2) Down Tilt in it's current state is rather useless, though Forward Tilt is not. If the above change to Forward Tilt is implemented, Forward Tilt's knockback should be transferred over and replace Down Tilt's current knockback. This would effectively give her more range on a decent knockback move, and allow her to more easily set up for gimps after a successful Down Tilt.

3) The Sing change that DrinkingFood suggested (The one I quoted, anyways).


The problem with Jiggypuff's Forward and Down Tilt is that they are too similar currently (specifically knockback), though they both share problems. Down Tilt doesn't have enough knockback to be too useful despite having range, and Forward Tilt doesn't have range despite having some knockback. If you combine both of the positive elements and give them to Jigglypuff's Down Tilt, and change her Forward Tilt to function in a similar manner to Yoshi's Forward Tilt, I feel as though her ground game would be much more effective...without having to resort to drastic changes. Granted, her ground game doesn't need to be the BEST (it would still have very poor range), but that is a fundamental aspect of the character anyways. It is part of what makes her unique, and I don't think that part of her should change. But it can always certainly be made better despite my stance on that.

 

[MagnesD3]

The changes that I like for jiggz are B canceling rollout after release (momentum stays, can be help halted by pound or something afterward tho), Increased range on sing to make it cover more options on the opponents wakeup (Id like it to be similar in usage to dk's B down), and finally mashing out of the sleep caused by rest so you arent punished on killing the opponent as well as making the punishes be less hard on a miss timed rest.

 

[Fortress]

Rollout could be jump-cancellable from the ground, similar to Ike's quickdraw.

Or just give her Kirby's N64 u-tilt on all of her tilts.

 

[PastLink]

Or just give her Kirby's N64 u-tilt on all of her tilts.

you
stop that.

- A good projectile
- Great range / disjoints
- Great mobility

while it doesn't shine like it used to, one of Jigg's defining traits is her ability to weave in and out in the air, maybe speeding up the weaving and momentum change a but so she can keep up?

 

[Fortress]

you
stop that.

Rest's ending frames (all of them) should have super armor, rollout should have 18-frame startup intangibility, and sing should OKO and be cancellable on hit

while it doesn't shine like it used to, one of Jigg's defining traits is her ability to weave in and out in the air, maybe speeding up the weaving and momentum change a but so she can keep up?

I was actually going to mention that in my last post, and thought it should definitely be discussed. If Jiggs' power can't be directly increased, how about make her more of an aerial 'speed demon' of sorts? Maybe her tools would be more useful as they are if she could manipulate her movement in a manner more superior to the cast around her. She is the balloon Pokemon, after all.

 

[PastLink]

Rest's ending frames (all of them) should have super armor, rollout should have 18-frame startup intangibility, and sing should OKO and be cancellable on hit

I was actually going to mention that in my last post, and thought it should definitely be discussed. If Jiggs' power can't be directly increased, how about make her more of an aerial 'speed demon' of sorts? Maybe her tools would be more useful as they are if she could manipulate her movement in a manner more superior to the cast around her. She is the balloon Pokemon, after all.

just a silly idea, but what if she had a special airdodge? where she pops like in her taunt to gain more distance than other air dodges and at a huge burst of speed. but her fall speed after is pathetically, "I'm waiting for you with a fully charged upsmash" slow.
that silly idea out of the way, adding that, plus hell even an extra jump, less fall time. make it so she can keep up the air-ground pressure longer and stronger.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The last thing we need for jiggs to be a better designed and less overall stupid and polarizing character is for her to be able to already do what she does amazingly that much better. An extra jump or any additional aerial mobility is not a good idea in the least.

 

[Paradoxium]

make jigglypuffs side b faster

 

[DrinkingFood]

because jiggs totally needs a recovery buff

although, if it were faster on the ground only, and went a lot farther, then we'd be getting somewhere. There's already lots of precedent for specials changing movement properties based on being in the air or on the ground, so this wouldn't be anything out of the box.

 

[PastLink]

The last thing we need for jiggs to be a better designed and less overall stupid and polarizing character is for her to be able to already do what she does amazingly that much better. An extra jump or any additional aerial mobility is not a good idea in the least.

adding that but toning down the stupidness she already has down would probably make for a more balanced playstyle and a very fitting one too. the nerf to Bair's range everyone's been crying for can be compensated that she can strike with any of her good aerials and get back out. equalizing her aerials and making up for it with giving her more mobility sounds like it'd stay true to what people want her to be, a fighter with over focus on aerial combat spacing and pressure. plus, she'd still have problems with ranged melee attacks, especially if she loses the disjoint. and now she even has better matchups against projectiles because she can weave in between them faster and easier. heck if that's all they did i wouldn't mind if her specials remained as is.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I actually think that jiggly puff is around bottom mid tier in this. I really dont understand how could they could possibly buff her besides giving her better specials or tilts. It's great that all the characters have punishment options in this, but I think jiggs is getting hit really hard with them.
I also do think that marth needs a slight buff to his neutral b. I dont play with marth in this, but I've heard that stages in this game arent in his favor. It would also take away his problem killing at high percentages.

 

[Fortress]

PM Puff is bad. It's 100% Melee Puff, which doesn't keep up with the PM roster on the whole. She needs some buffs. These are some pretty radical and random ideas. Feel free to spitball and brainstorm.

• Side-special should be faster in general (I don't see how this would improve her recovery game, as you'd just run out of the boosts you'd get more quickly, so I feel that it would be rather balanced in of itself)
• Rollout should have some kind of jump-cancel, even if Sonic already has something similar. Jiggs shouldn't have to remain poor just because a potential option was already taken. Puff's application of this cancel would vary on Sonic's (Rollout itself could probably have a much shorter charge time, but go a much shorter distance and deal less damage (?) to compensate for its ability to enhance her combo game). Possibly be jump-cancellable from the ground only(?) in that the kind of game she transitions into is much different.
• D-tilt with good lifting ability, similar to Sheik and Link's.
• Slightly increased range F-tilt, possibly increase damage and knockback a tad to give her some kind of 'heavy-hitting' tilt in her arsenal
• Slightly faster U-tilt with knockback conducive to juggling.
• Something with smash attacks? Does Puff have these?

 

[foxygrandpa]

PM Puff is bad. It's 100% Melee Puff, which doesn't keep up with the PM roster on the whole. She needs some buffs. These are some pretty radical and random ideas. Feel free to spitball and brainstorm.

• Side-special should be faster in general (I don't see how this would improve her recovery game, as you'd just run out of the boosts you'd get more quickly, so I feel that it would be rather balanced in of itself)
• Rollout should have some kind of jump-cancel, even if Sonic already has something similar. Jiggs shouldn't have to remain poor just because a potential option was already taken. Puff's application of this cancel would vary on Sonic's (Rollout itself could probably have a much shorter charge time, but go a much shorter distance and deal less damage (?) to compensate for its ability to enhance her combo game). Possibly be jump-cancellable from the ground only(?) in that the kind of game she transitions into is much different.
• D-tilt with good lifting ability, similar to Sheik and Link's.
• Slightly increased range F-tilt, possibly increase damage and knockback a tad to give her some kind of 'heavy-hitting' tilt in her arsenal
• Slightly faster U-tilt with knockback conducive to juggling.
• Something with smash attacks? Does Puff have these?

puff's uptilit is good for resting at 0 percent, and her fsmash is insanely powerful, kills at 90 easily on a lot of characters

 

[Fortress]

Completely forgot about F-smash.

 

[Saito]

Look.

Just give jiggs ftilt the knockback and angle of link's spin attack.

#allproblemssolved.

 

[Empyrean]

Look.

Just give jiggs ftilt the knockback and angle of link's spin attack.

#allproblemssolved.

Don't forget #gamebroken.