Are the melee characters going to receive further changes?

[Fortress]

Why not on n-air?

 

[Terotrous]

while it doesn't shine like it used to, one of Jigg's defining traits is her ability to weave in and out in the air, maybe speeding up the weaving and momentum change a but so she can keep up?

An overall speed increase to Jiggs is also possible (I actually came up with this one before but forgot to post it), but people who are used to her from Melee would probably complain that it makes her feel weird.

just a silly idea, but what if she had a special airdodge? where she pops like in her taunt to gain more distance than other air dodges and at a huge burst of speed. but her fall speed after is pathetically, "I'm waiting for you with a fully charged upsmash" slow.
that silly idea out of the way, adding that, plus hell even an extra jump, less fall time. make it so she can keep up the air-ground pressure longer and stronger.

I contemplated something along these lines too, my idea was "Jigglypuff's air dodge doesn't leave her helpless afterwards". This would be really strong, it basically gives her a Mewtwo teleport (albeit a bit slower and more punishable), and would definitely complement the weave game. The problem is that it's really unintuitive from a gameplay standpoint, why does Jiggs get to do this while no one else does?


Fixing Jiggs is not easy, because her toolset is just so one-dimensional overall. I do sort of like the concept of butting her grounded normals, but due to their short range I'm not sure it'd help with high-range characters.

 

[PastLink]

An overall speed increase to Jiggs is also possible (I actually came up with this one before but forgot to post it), but people who are used to her from Melee would probably complain that it makes her feel weird.

They aren't gonna complain if it helps her out, every jiggs min by now has seen that the poor girl is falling short. If HB is using other characters to simply expand his repetoir of knowledge and better face the many match ups in this game, that's one thing. but being switching back and forth from a character you know inside out, and have known for 10+ years? that leads me to believe, (rightfully so i hope) that jiggs while yes viable does have trouble. being viable doesn't mean much in this game because everyone is viable, but that doesn't mean design and improvement should stop there. This really should apply to any and all characters, if something is done for the character's benefit why cry about it? T.Link's Fair got sped up, why on earth would that bother me, because i needed to relearn the timing? pff, come on guys.

sorry for that tanget, moving on.

Fixing Jiggs is not easy, because her toolset is just so one-dimensional overall. I do sort of like the concept of butting her grounded normals, but due to their short range I'm not sure it'd help with high-range characters.

Here's the thing though, the fact it's one dimensional isn't as detrimental as you think. that "one dimension" is the exact archetype we classified jiggs under, aerial manuevering, be it for pressure or pure spacing and bluffing, building around that idea will work just as well as building around "this character can inflict status effects and heal while fighting" not to mention, jiggs already is built to fit what she was made for, just very poorly.

 

[MagnesD3]

PM Puff is bad. It's 100% Melee Puff, which doesn't keep up with the PM roster on the whole. She needs some buffs. These are some pretty radical and random ideas. Feel free to spitball and brainstorm.

• Side-special should be faster in general (I don't see how this would improve her recovery game, as you'd just run out of the boosts you'd get more quickly, so I feel that it would be rather balanced in of itself)
• Rollout should have some kind of jump-cancel, even if Sonic already has something similar. Jiggs shouldn't have to remain poor just because a potential option was already taken. Puff's application of this cancel would vary on Sonic's (Rollout itself could probably have a much shorter charge time, but go a much shorter distance and deal less damage (?) to compensate for its ability to enhance her combo game). Possibly be jump-cancellable from the ground only(?) in that the kind of game she transitions into is much different.
• D-tilt with good lifting ability, similar to Sheik and Link's.
• Slightly increased range F-tilt, possibly increase damage and knockback a tad to give her some kind of 'heavy-hitting' tilt in her arsenal
• Slightly faster U-tilt with knockback conducive to juggling.
• Something with smash attacks? Does Puff have these?

Everything seems reasonable but I would have Rollout be cancellable by pressing the b button after being launched momentum stays after cancellation though. (momentum could be slowed down by pounding in the opposite direction of the momentum.)

 

[Player -0]

Why does Jiggz go into special fall after rollout?

I don't remember this in brawl........


Wait......

You're telling me.....

Spoiler

Cuz Melee?

I guess it makes her recovery less GDLK but if she were high enough to charge it she could have just drifted to the stage. Rollout causes commitment and a fully charged Pika Up-Smash -> Thunder at 20%

 

[Scarlet Bean]

PM fans caring about prominent melee characters?
This thread needs more Spacie ********

 

[PastLink]

PM fans caring about prominent melee characters?
This thread needs more Spacie *****ing

We're not idiots, we understand how important spacies are. (everyone's heard how melee falco specifically is the reason this godsend was even born) we're talking about them in the interest of improving the game as a whole, jiggs specifically because she's so easily outshined (pun not intended) by the cast nowadays.

 

[arcticfox8]

My ideas for Jiggs
-Brawl Fair

 

[JOE!]

Replace all hitboxes with her janky fairy-magic Bair disjoint

 

[Terotrous]

This really should apply to any and all characters, if something is done for the character's benefit why cry about it? T.Link's Fair got sped up, why on earth would that bother me, because i needed to relearn the timing? pff, come on guys.

Apparently "I have to relearn things" is enough to keep some Melee players from playing this game. Or at least this is the prevailing theory affecting the design of the Melee vets.

Here's the thing though, the fact it's one dimensional isn't as detrimental as you think. that "one dimension" is the exact archetype we classified jiggs under, aerial manuevering, be it for pressure or pure spacing and bluffing, building around that idea will work just as well as building around "this character can inflict status effects and heal while fighting" not to mention, jiggs already is built to fit what she was made for, just very poorly.

I feel that this game generally doesn't favour one-dimensional characters, simply because the range of opponents and stages is so large. If your character can only play a certain way, you're almost certainly going to face some extremely disadvantageous matchups.

The other potential issue is that unless that character is completely godlike in the one thing they do well, they face the possibility that another character might be just purely better than them in every way. I honestly think you can make the case that Squirtle is just "Jigglypuff but better". He's got all the aerial mobility that she has, plus a couple projectiles, a really solid UpSmash, and a much better approach. The only advantage she has over him is slightly superior recovery.

 

[MagnesD3]

Apparently "I have to relearn things" is enough to keep some Melee players from playing this game. Or at least this is the prevailing theory affecting the design of the Melee vets.



I feel that this game generally doesn't favour one-dimensional characters, simply because the range of opponents and stages is so large. If your character can only play a certain way, you're almost certainly going to face some extremely disadvantageous matchups.

The other potential issue is that unless that character is completely godlike in the one thing they do well, they face the possibility that another character might be just purely better than them in every way. I honestly think you can make the case that Squirtle is just "Jigglypuff but better". He's got all the aerial mobility that she has, plus a couple projectiles, a really solid UpSmash, and a much better approach. The only advantage she has over him is slightly superior recovery.

Dont forget jiggily puff has better kill potential..

 

[PastLink]

Apparently "I have to relearn things" is enough to keep some Melee players from playing this game. Or at least this is the prevailing theory affecting the design of the Melee vets.



I feel that this game generally doesn't favour one-dimensional characters, simply because the range of opponents and stages is so large. If your character can only play a certain way, you're almost certainly going to face some extremely disadvantageous matchups.

The other potential issue is that unless that character is completely godlike in the one thing they do well, they face the possibility that another character might be just purely better than them in every way. I honestly think you can make the case that Squirtle is just "Jigglypuff but better". He's got all the aerial mobility that she has, plus a couple projectiles, a really solid UpSmash, and a much better approach. The only advantage she has over him is slightly superior recovery.

"slightly" superior? come on now who're you fooling? another thing, is that jiggs and squirtle play completely different. anyone who even comes close to jiggs is wario for his manueverability. he's jigglypuff but a tank. oh yeah and tilts, and tech chases, and smashes.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The other potential issue is that unless that character is completely godlike in the one thing they do well, they face the possibility that another character might be just purely better than them in every way. I honestly think you can make the case that Squirtle is just "Jigglypuff but better". He's got all the aerial mobility that she has, plus a couple projectiles, a really solid UpSmash, and a much better approach. The only advantage she has over him is slightly superior recovery.

This analogy is atrocious. Squirtle lacks none of Jigglypuffs offstage potential, nor her multiple jumps, low fallspeed and good airspeed which allow her to weave, bob, be so absurdly safe offstage and carry them off with her bairs. Their playstyles aren't anything alike.

I mean, YES, there is a Jiggs++, but it's Pit, not Squirtle. He kills people in the same way, but better. He lacks her airspeed, maneuverability and falls faster, trading those in for a glide, awesome projectile and superior combo/kill power that is consistent across his moveset instead of centralized into one or two moves (rest/FSmash). He also has a much better ground game, combo capability and disjoints for great priority (low-reach swords, but disjoints are disjoints) while being able to carry people to blastzones with fair + light arrows and get kills in the same manner as Jiggs. Basically, besides the Rest, Pit makes Jiggs obsolete. And Squirtle is completely different from Jiggs.

 

[Terotrous]

Dont forget jiggily puff has better kill potential..

I don't think she actually does. Sure, there's rest, but it's very unreliable. Squirtle Upsmash has a huge disjoint and kills people stupid early. He's also got a totally viable kill throw (down), too.

"slightly" superior? come on now who're you fooling? another thing, is that jiggs and squirtle play completely different. anyone who even comes close to jiggs is wario for his manueverability. he's jigglypuff but a tank. oh yeah and tilts, and tech chases, and smashes.

Squirtle's recovery is pretty good though, he gets lots of horizontal distance from forward B and Up B is very safe because of the waterfall hitbox in front of him. There really aren't many situations where Squirtle will not make it or get gimped but Jiggs would live.

Also, they're both very weave-oriented characters, who put out a lot of weak but easily comboed aerials to push you around the stage. I think they're fairly comparable.

This analogy is atrocious. Squirtle lacks none of Jigglypuffs offstage potential, nor her multiple jumps, low fallspeed and good airspeed which allow her to weave, bob, be so absurdly safe offstage and carry them off with her bairs. Their playstyles aren't anything alike.

Squirtle lacks good airspeed? Have you played the character? His airspeed is right on par with Jiggs and Wario.

Squirtle can also offstage to some extent with forward B, though admittedly Jiggs is better here. If only Jiggs had some way of getting people offstage.


Here, watch some Jewchainz. I feel like you guys have never seen good Squirtle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlznpho9TC4

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Squirtle is more like a really annoying sheik than a puff tbh.

 

[Fortress]

Wat.

10wats.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Squirtle lacks good airspeed? Have you played the character?

No, but I wasn't disputing his airspeed, just how he applies it. It's similar to Wario's weaving to get in, right? But more for extended combos -> kill move rather than Jiggs' more traditional bait -> offstage -> bair train. Squirtle and Jiggs really aren't much comparable. Pit obsoletes her entire playstyle much better.

 

[Terotrous]

No, but I wasn't disputing his airspeed, just how he applies it. It's similar to Wario's weaving to get in, right?

Squirtle's weave is a little different from Jiggs in that he has more options. It's not just weave into Fair / Bair, he also has Forward B and Down B. Down B effectively acts like a big disjoint, which is good for fighting other disjoints, and Forward B is just a really fast way in that leads to combos, in particular weave back into forward B punishes pretty much any whiffed poke. Beyond this he still as a solid bair and fair that work almost exactly like Jiggs.


Basically, I feel that Squirtle is the character that Jiggs needs to be. His overall gameplan is largely the same (weave your way in there and put the hurt on), but his toolset is way better suited to accomplishing it because of those extra tools that he has. Jiggs also needs some other tool that she can use to overcome characters who try to keep her out.

 

[didds]

I honestly have trouble comparing squirtle to other characters. He's got too many tools that vary his playstyle from person to person. I personally play a luigi-ish type zoning game with sporadic wds rather than a puff zoning/weave game. I've seen a squirtle going balls to the wall aggro almost like a falcon. Sure there are similarities for certain aspects between characters, but most of the cast is fairly unique because of how each aspect of their game is handled and related to eachother. Jiggs and Pit have a very similar wall of pain type punish games, but greatly differ in their neutral games, grab games, and even just the transitions between each part of play. Maybe I'm talkin out the @ss a bit, I guess it's just the product of my internal struggle to see squirtle compared to other character, he seems so unique as does the majority of the cast.

Feel free to tell me if this didn't make a bit of sense, just an opinion, I should be working

 

[prisoner]

just wanted to pop in and say

Falcon suuuuucks

what happens when Melee top 8 becomes Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Jiggs/Peach/Yoshi/Samus and people realise that CF was never actually a good character; he just had a bunch of talented die-hards playing him. but now they've all quit or switched to Fox.

this is kind of a joke post... but it's kind of not.

 

[210stuna]

this is kind of a joke post... but it's kind of not.

You sound like a prisoner of your mind since you can't decide.

 

[Terotrous]

just wanted to pop in and say

Falcon suuuuucks

what happens when Melee top 8 becomes Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Jiggs/Peach/Yoshi/Samus and people realise that CF was never actually a good character; he just had a bunch of talented die-hards playing him. but now they've all quit or switched to Fox.

this is kind of a joke post... but it's kind of not.

I don't think Falcon is any lower than mid. He has to work to get in, but he's fast enough that he can usually get in eventually, and when he gets in it really hurts.

He's clearly lower tier than he was in Melee due to the increased number of viable zoners, but I think he's still viable, and probably needs only very minor tweaks to be a big threat.

 

[PastLink]

like a kill move other than knee.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I feel as if falcon needs to have the range on his nair slightly tweaked, so that it would trap easily, but I really dont know how that would turn out. If falcon needs anything, he needs to have a less gimpable recovery, like they did to ganondorf. The hitbox without the grab on ganon's up b is pretty helpful, too bad everything else about him sucks.

 

[Terotrous]

like a kill move other than knee.

FSmash, Bair, and Dair can also kill. Maybe others, I don't play Falcon much.

What other move would you want to have more killing power? A lot of his moves would actually become worse if they had more knockback, because it'd screw up his combos.

 

[Fortress]

I feel as if falcon needs to have the range on his nair slightly tweaked, so that it would trap easily, but I really dont know how that would turn out. If falcon needs anything, he needs to have a less gimpable recovery, like they did to ganondorf. The hitbox without the grab on ganon's up b is pretty helpful, too bad everything else about him sucks.

I think Falcon Kick could travel less distance, so as to make recovering his jump a more viable option off-stage.

 

[GMaster171]

Imo Falcon doesn't need more kill moves when his entire moveset leads into the one he has, and it kills at low %s.

 

[PastLink]

FSmash, Bair, and Dair can also kill. Maybe others, I don't play Falcon much.

What other move would you want to have more killing power? A lot of his moves would actually become worse if they had more knockback, because it'd screw up his combos.

how often do you see those kills made, like ever? it's pretty much always the knee because combo>everything> grandmama's cookies> knee. so honestly, thinking about it, I'm not sure what to do about captain falcon. He's so centralized around one move it's ridiculous. If we change that though then fouls are cried around the world. but as opposed to jigg's bair, people actually like the knee, even if they're hit by hit they go flying with a smile on their face.

 

[Terotrous]

I think Falcon Kick could travel less distance, so as to make recovering his jump a more viable option off-stage.

Actually, this gives me a much better idea. Rather than making it shorter, you could also change the angle on Air Falcon Kick. It currently travels at about a 20 degree angle, if you made it a 45 degree angle, that would be a pretty substantial buff to his recovery, since he'd gain more horizontal distance and not go down as far. It might be useful for approaching, too.

This could go for Ganon too. If you really wanted to help Ganon out, make Air Warlock Foot go completely horizontal. I actually think this might instantly fix him as a character, because it'd be a godlike approaching tool. You'd have to make it not recover his midair jump though, otherwise he could just fly forever.

 

[PastLink]

what if captain falcon didn't go into free fall after he managed to land a dunk?

 

[Yurya]

"What if we don't buff recoveries?" Says Marth...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

"What if we don't buff recoveries?" Says Marth...

Stop pretending Marth's edgeguarding game still isn't Godlike in Project M. Marth is still fully prepared to make everyone his b**** offstage. If you have a recovery, Marth can gimp it.

 

[fabulouspants]

that theory fighter.

 

[Empyrean]

Stop pretending Marth's edgeguarding game still isn't Godlike in Project M. Marth is still fully prepared to make everyone his b**** offstage. If you have a recovery, Marth can gimp it.

Except Zelda and Mewtwo. Then again, no one can gimp those two.

 

[Fortress]

Actually, this gives me a much better idea. Rather than making it shorter, you could also change the angle on Air Falcon Kick. It currently travels at about a 20 degree angle, if you made it a 45 degree angle, that would be a pretty substantial buff to his recovery, since he'd gain more horizontal distance and not go down as far. It might be useful for approaching, too.

This could go for Ganon too. If you really wanted to help Ganon out, make Air Warlock Foot go completely horizontal. I actually think this might instantly fix him as a character, because it'd be a godlike approaching tool. You'd have to make it not recover his midair jump though, otherwise he could just fly forever.

I can see the sense in doing it for Falcon, but Ganondorf's being completely horizontal strips him of the downB spike that he currently has.

"What if we don't buff recoveries?" Says Marth...

Marth is like, double-secret SSS-tier when it comes to stumping attempts to come back. Marth doesn't need a better recovery.

 

[Terotrous]

I can see the sense in doing it for Falcon, but Ganondorf's being completely horizontal strips him of the downB spike that he currently has.

I'd definitely trade this for a significantly better approach. Keep in mind he can act after Warlock's Foot, allowing him to go straight into Fair after it ends. I suspect he'd have combos where he throws you off stage, jumps, does DownB, and follows up with Fair (if the DownB doesn't hit and kill you first, at any rate).

 

[Fortress]

I'd definitely trade this for a significantly better approach. Keep in mind he can act after Warlock's Foot, allowing him to go straight into Fair after it ends. I suspect he'd have combos where he throws you off stage, jumps, does DownB, and follows up with Fair (if the DownB doesn't hit and kill you first, at any rate).

You need to think a little more about that though. For instance, can Ganondorf just keep doing down-B to recover horizontally while off-stage? Or does he fall helpless immediately after it (if so, what's the point?)? Does he recover a jump? Because that'd be too powerful. You've gotta think about it more.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You need to think a little more about that though. For instance, can Ganondorf just keep doing down-B to recover horizontally while off-stage? Or does he fall helpless immediately after it (if so, what's the point?)? Does he recover a jump? Because that'd be too powerful. You've gotta think about it more.

One down-B per airtime is not an unreasonable limit. Like Mario's Tornado offstage makes him sink the second time. 1 Down-B in the air without going into special fall.

 

[PastLink]

As much as I'm enjoying this (I love designing videogames in my head, game design/directing is something i really want to do after college) and believe me topics like these are my favorite kind. but I wonder if the devs look at this, and if they do, what do they think? IMO we're being pretty reasonable compared to other discussions like this, so I wonder if maybe the devs are considering anything we say at all.







only because I

Spoiler

 

[Terotrous]

You need to think a little more about that though. For instance, can Ganondorf just keep doing down-B to recover horizontally while off-stage? Or does he fall helpless immediately after it (if so, what's the point?)? Does he recover a jump? Because that'd be too powerful. You've gotta think about it more.

Yeah, only once per airtime for sure, and no recovering a jump.

Even with that limitation, it's still a huge boost to his recovery, as long as he hasn't already used it when he gets knocked offstage he should be able to come back from almost anywhere.

I actually think that'd give him some interesting tradeoffs vs Falcon. He's not quite as explosive when he lands a hit, but he survives a lot longer.

I'd certainly be curious to test it out and see how strong it is.