Fortress
Smash Master
Why not on n-air?
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An overall speed increase to Jiggs is also possible (I actually came up with this one before but forgot to post it), but people who are used to her from Melee would probably complain that it makes her feel weird.while it doesn't shine like it used to, one of Jigg's defining traits is her ability to weave in and out in the air, maybe speeding up the weaving and momentum change a but so she can keep up?
I contemplated something along these lines too, my idea was "Jigglypuff's air dodge doesn't leave her helpless afterwards". This would be really strong, it basically gives her a Mewtwo teleport (albeit a bit slower and more punishable), and would definitely complement the weave game. The problem is that it's really unintuitive from a gameplay standpoint, why does Jiggs get to do this while no one else does?just a silly idea, but what if she had a special airdodge? where she pops like in her taunt to gain more distance than other air dodges and at a huge burst of speed. but her fall speed after is pathetically, "I'm waiting for you with a fully charged upsmash" slow.
that silly idea out of the way, adding that, plus hell even an extra jump, less fall time. make it so she can keep up the air-ground pressure longer and stronger.
They aren't gonna complain if it helps her out, every jiggs min by now has seen that the poor girl is falling short. If HB is using other characters to simply expand his repetoir of knowledge and better face the many match ups in this game, that's one thing. but being switching back and forth from a character you know inside out, and have known for 10+ years? that leads me to believe, (rightfully so i hope) that jiggs while yes viable does have trouble. being viable doesn't mean much in this game because everyone is viable, but that doesn't mean design and improvement should stop there. This really should apply to any and all characters, if something is done for the character's benefit why cry about it? T.Link's Fair got sped up, why on earth would that bother me, because i needed to relearn the timing? pff, come on guys.An overall speed increase to Jiggs is also possible (I actually came up with this one before but forgot to post it), but people who are used to her from Melee would probably complain that it makes her feel weird.
Here's the thing though, the fact it's one dimensional isn't as detrimental as you think. that "one dimension" is the exact archetype we classified jiggs under, aerial manuevering, be it for pressure or pure spacing and bluffing, building around that idea will work just as well as building around "this character can inflict status effects and heal while fighting" not to mention, jiggs already is built to fit what she was made for, just very poorly.Fixing Jiggs is not easy, because her toolset is just so one-dimensional overall. I do sort of like the concept of butting her grounded normals, but due to their short range I'm not sure it'd help with high-range characters.
Everything seems reasonable but I would have Rollout be cancellable by pressing the b button after being launched momentum stays after cancellation though. (momentum could be slowed down by pounding in the opposite direction of the momentum.)PM Puff is bad. It's 100% Melee Puff, which doesn't keep up with the PM roster on the whole. She needs some buffs. These are some pretty radical and random ideas. Feel free to spitball and brainstorm.
- Side-special should be faster in general (I don't see how this would improve her recovery game, as you'd just run out of the boosts you'd get more quickly, so I feel that it would be rather balanced in of itself)
- Rollout should have some kind of jump-cancel, even if Sonic already has something similar. Jiggs shouldn't have to remain poor just because a potential option was already taken. Puff's application of this cancel would vary on Sonic's (Rollout itself could probably have a much shorter charge time, but go a much shorter distance and deal less damage (?) to compensate for its ability to enhance her combo game). Possibly be jump-cancellable from the ground only(?) in that the kind of game she transitions into is much different.
- D-tilt with good lifting ability, similar to Sheik and Link's.
- Slightly increased range F-tilt, possibly increase damage and knockback a tad to give her some kind of 'heavy-hitting' tilt in her arsenal
- Slightly faster U-tilt with knockback conducive to juggling.
- Something with smash attacks? Does Puff have these?
We're not idiots, we understand how important spacies are. (everyone's heard how melee falco specifically is the reason this godsend was even born) we're talking about them in the interest of improving the game as a whole, jiggs specifically because she's so easily outshined (pun not intended) by the cast nowadays.PM fans caring about prominent melee characters?
This thread needs more Spacie *****ing
Apparently "I have to relearn things" is enough to keep some Melee players from playing this game. Or at least this is the prevailing theory affecting the design of the Melee vets.This really should apply to any and all characters, if something is done for the character's benefit why cry about it? T.Link's Fair got sped up, why on earth would that bother me, because i needed to relearn the timing? pff, come on guys.
I feel that this game generally doesn't favour one-dimensional characters, simply because the range of opponents and stages is so large. If your character can only play a certain way, you're almost certainly going to face some extremely disadvantageous matchups.Here's the thing though, the fact it's one dimensional isn't as detrimental as you think. that "one dimension" is the exact archetype we classified jiggs under, aerial manuevering, be it for pressure or pure spacing and bluffing, building around that idea will work just as well as building around "this character can inflict status effects and heal while fighting" not to mention, jiggs already is built to fit what she was made for, just very poorly.
Dont forget jiggily puff has better kill potential..Apparently "I have to relearn things" is enough to keep some Melee players from playing this game. Or at least this is the prevailing theory affecting the design of the Melee vets.
I feel that this game generally doesn't favour one-dimensional characters, simply because the range of opponents and stages is so large. If your character can only play a certain way, you're almost certainly going to face some extremely disadvantageous matchups.
The other potential issue is that unless that character is completely godlike in the one thing they do well, they face the possibility that another character might be just purely better than them in every way. I honestly think you can make the case that Squirtle is just "Jigglypuff but better". He's got all the aerial mobility that she has, plus a couple projectiles, a really solid UpSmash, and a much better approach. The only advantage she has over him is slightly superior recovery.
"slightly" superior? come on now who're you fooling? another thing, is that jiggs and squirtle play completely different. anyone who even comes close to jiggs is wario for his manueverability. he's jigglypuff but a tank. oh yeah and tilts, and tech chases, and smashes.Apparently "I have to relearn things" is enough to keep some Melee players from playing this game. Or at least this is the prevailing theory affecting the design of the Melee vets.
I feel that this game generally doesn't favour one-dimensional characters, simply because the range of opponents and stages is so large. If your character can only play a certain way, you're almost certainly going to face some extremely disadvantageous matchups.
The other potential issue is that unless that character is completely godlike in the one thing they do well, they face the possibility that another character might be just purely better than them in every way. I honestly think you can make the case that Squirtle is just "Jigglypuff but better". He's got all the aerial mobility that she has, plus a couple projectiles, a really solid UpSmash, and a much better approach. The only advantage she has over him is slightly superior recovery.
This analogy is atrocious. Squirtle lacks none of Jigglypuffs offstage potential, nor her multiple jumps, low fallspeed and good airspeed which allow her to weave, bob, be so absurdly safe offstage and carry them off with her bairs. Their playstyles aren't anything alike.The other potential issue is that unless that character is completely godlike in the one thing they do well, they face the possibility that another character might be just purely better than them in every way. I honestly think you can make the case that Squirtle is just "Jigglypuff but better". He's got all the aerial mobility that she has, plus a couple projectiles, a really solid UpSmash, and a much better approach. The only advantage she has over him is slightly superior recovery.
I don't think she actually does. Sure, there's rest, but it's very unreliable. Squirtle Upsmash has a huge disjoint and kills people stupid early. He's also got a totally viable kill throw (down), too.Dont forget jiggily puff has better kill potential..
Squirtle's recovery is pretty good though, he gets lots of horizontal distance from forward B and Up B is very safe because of the waterfall hitbox in front of him. There really aren't many situations where Squirtle will not make it or get gimped but Jiggs would live."slightly" superior? come on now who're you fooling? another thing, is that jiggs and squirtle play completely different. anyone who even comes close to jiggs is wario for his manueverability. he's jigglypuff but a tank. oh yeah and tilts, and tech chases, and smashes.
Squirtle lacks good airspeed? Have you played the character? His airspeed is right on par with Jiggs and Wario.This analogy is atrocious. Squirtle lacks none of Jigglypuffs offstage potential, nor her multiple jumps, low fallspeed and good airspeed which allow her to weave, bob, be so absurdly safe offstage and carry them off with her bairs. Their playstyles aren't anything alike.
No, but I wasn't disputing his airspeed, just how he applies it. It's similar to Wario's weaving to get in, right? But more for extended combos -> kill move rather than Jiggs' more traditional bait -> offstage -> bair train. Squirtle and Jiggs really aren't much comparable. Pit obsoletes her entire playstyle much better.Squirtle lacks good airspeed? Have you played the character?
Squirtle's weave is a little different from Jiggs in that he has more options. It's not just weave into Fair / Bair, he also has Forward B and Down B. Down B effectively acts like a big disjoint, which is good for fighting other disjoints, and Forward B is just a really fast way in that leads to combos, in particular weave back into forward B punishes pretty much any whiffed poke. Beyond this he still as a solid bair and fair that work almost exactly like Jiggs.No, but I wasn't disputing his airspeed, just how he applies it. It's similar to Wario's weaving to get in, right?
You sound like a prisoner of your mind since you can't decide.this is kind of a joke post... but it's kind of not.
I don't think Falcon is any lower than mid. He has to work to get in, but he's fast enough that he can usually get in eventually, and when he gets in it really hurts.just wanted to pop in and say
Falcon suuuuucks
what happens when Melee top 8 becomes Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Jiggs/Peach/Yoshi/Samus and people realise that CF was never actually a good character; he just had a bunch of talented die-hards playing him. but now they've all quit or switched to Fox.
this is kind of a joke post... but it's kind of not.
FSmash, Bair, and Dair can also kill. Maybe others, I don't play Falcon much.like a kill move other than knee.
I think Falcon Kick could travel less distance, so as to make recovering his jump a more viable option off-stage.I feel as if falcon needs to have the range on his nair slightly tweaked, so that it would trap easily, but I really dont know how that would turn out. If falcon needs anything, he needs to have a less gimpable recovery, like they did to ganondorf. The hitbox without the grab on ganon's up b is pretty helpful, too bad everything else about him sucks.
how often do you see those kills made, like ever? it's pretty much always the knee because combo>everything> grandmama's cookies> knee. so honestly, thinking about it, I'm not sure what to do about captain falcon. He's so centralized around one move it's ridiculous. If we change that though then fouls are cried around the world. but as opposed to jigg's bair, people actually like the knee, even if they're hit by hit they go flying with a smile on their face.FSmash, Bair, and Dair can also kill. Maybe others, I don't play Falcon much.
What other move would you want to have more killing power? A lot of his moves would actually become worse if they had more knockback, because it'd screw up his combos.
Actually, this gives me a much better idea. Rather than making it shorter, you could also change the angle on Air Falcon Kick. It currently travels at about a 20 degree angle, if you made it a 45 degree angle, that would be a pretty substantial buff to his recovery, since he'd gain more horizontal distance and not go down as far. It might be useful for approaching, too.I think Falcon Kick could travel less distance, so as to make recovering his jump a more viable option off-stage.
Stop pretending Marth's edgeguarding game still isn't Godlike in Project M. Marth is still fully prepared to make everyone his b**** offstage. If you have a recovery, Marth can gimp it."What if we don't buff recoveries?" Says Marth...
Except Zelda and Mewtwo. Then again, no one can gimp those two.Stop pretending Marth's edgeguarding game still isn't Godlike in Project M. Marth is still fully prepared to make everyone his b**** offstage. If you have a recovery, Marth can gimp it.
I can see the sense in doing it for Falcon, but Ganondorf's being completely horizontal strips him of the downB spike that he currently has.Actually, this gives me a much better idea. Rather than making it shorter, you could also change the angle on Air Falcon Kick. It currently travels at about a 20 degree angle, if you made it a 45 degree angle, that would be a pretty substantial buff to his recovery, since he'd gain more horizontal distance and not go down as far. It might be useful for approaching, too.
This could go for Ganon too. If you really wanted to help Ganon out, make Air Warlock Foot go completely horizontal. I actually think this might instantly fix him as a character, because it'd be a godlike approaching tool. You'd have to make it not recover his midair jump though, otherwise he could just fly forever.
Marth is like, double-secret SSS-tier when it comes to stumping attempts to come back. Marth doesn't need a better recovery."What if we don't buff recoveries?" Says Marth...
I'd definitely trade this for a significantly better approach. Keep in mind he can act after Warlock's Foot, allowing him to go straight into Fair after it ends. I suspect he'd have combos where he throws you off stage, jumps, does DownB, and follows up with Fair (if the DownB doesn't hit and kill you first, at any rate).I can see the sense in doing it for Falcon, but Ganondorf's being completely horizontal strips him of the downB spike that he currently has.
You need to think a little more about that though. For instance, can Ganondorf just keep doing down-B to recover horizontally while off-stage? Or does he fall helpless immediately after it (if so, what's the point?)? Does he recover a jump? Because that'd be too powerful. You've gotta think about it more.I'd definitely trade this for a significantly better approach. Keep in mind he can act after Warlock's Foot, allowing him to go straight into Fair after it ends. I suspect he'd have combos where he throws you off stage, jumps, does DownB, and follows up with Fair (if the DownB doesn't hit and kill you first, at any rate).
One down-B per airtime is not an unreasonable limit. Like Mario's Tornado offstage makes him sink the second time. 1 Down-B in the air without going into special fall.You need to think a little more about that though. For instance, can Ganondorf just keep doing down-B to recover horizontally while off-stage? Or does he fall helpless immediately after it (if so, what's the point?)? Does he recover a jump? Because that'd be too powerful. You've gotta think about it more.
Yeah, only once per airtime for sure, and no recovering a jump.You need to think a little more about that though. For instance, can Ganondorf just keep doing down-B to recover horizontally while off-stage? Or does he fall helpless immediately after it (if so, what's the point?)? Does he recover a jump? Because that'd be too powerful. You've gotta think about it more.