Are the melee characters going to receive further changes?

[foxygrandpa]

I know that theres controversy behind fox and falco, but Im talking about the ones besides them. Sheik, marth, jiggs, peach etc,
Are they only placing high because people are more familiar with them, or are they going to receive buffs/nerfs in the future?

 

[Terotrous]

The game isn't final yet, so everyone could still get more changes. I think this would be particularly likely for characters who are already fairly different from Melee (ie, Mario, Link), or characters who have significant problems dealing with some of the newcomers (Jiggs, Ganon).

As to what these changes will be or when they will happen that's anyone's guess.

 

[Fortress]

Sheik's D-throw was changed pretty significantly, and it was kind of a huge part of her game last I checked. Still is.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

characters like ganon and ness will probably get some changes (or well i hope so) seeing as how they are struggling against lots of other characters

 

[PastLink]

characters like ganon and ness will probably get some changes (or well i hope so) seeing as how they are struggling against lots of other characters

He didn't specifically state it, but I think he was referring more to those "Golden few" at the tippy top of the tiers.

 

[Tryst]

For why the top tiers are what they are, that is because of them being known to be good in melee. Who knows, Some F Rank or whatever from brawl could actually be really really good but we just don't know enough yet because the Meta game is brand new for this game and people have been sticking to their old Melee Mains. Hopefully once the Meta game is older and the actual game is finalized we can see some previously F tier characters becoming more explored and better known.

 

[PastLink]

For why the top tiers are what they are, that is because of them being known to be good in melee. Who knows, Some F Rank or whatever from brawl could actually be really really good but we just don't know enough yet because the Meta game is brand new for this game and people have been sticking to their old Melee Mains. Hopefully once the Meta game is older and the actual game is finalized we can see some previously F tier characters becoming more explored and better known.

already happening as we speak friend, adult link's pretty ridiculous, and if you've been around the PM board long enough, i'm sure you'll hear horror stories aboult zelda, ivysaur, and sonic (all in different versions)

 

[Tryst]

already happening as we speak friend, adult link's pretty ridiculous, and if you've been around the PM board long enough, i'm sure you'll hear horror stories aboult zelda, ivysaur, and sonic (all in different versions)

Yes, I definately know about Sonic, being a sonic main. But yeah. B) Link is pretty crazy.

 

[Terotrous]

For why the top tiers are what they are, that is because of them being known to be good in melee.

It's clearly not just that. We already know everything about Captain Falcon, and he's clearly not top tier. The spacies are so high because they're super fast, their offense is off the charts, they've got solid projectiles, and they have only one real weakness (gimpable recovery). It helps that we have 10 years of space animal tech, but even if we didn't it'd still be fairly clear just from the properties on their moves that they were really good.


Similarly Peach is still good because she's got great approaching options and strong attacks that start up real fast. Those characters are super solid across the board (unlike Jiggs and Falcon, who have huge weaknesses to offset their strengths)

 

[Strong Badam]

other than making them match melee more closely, changes are very unlikely for the rest of Melee's top 8. Ice Climbers and Sheik are most different from their Melee incarnations, and that's on purpose.

 

[CyberZixx]

other than making them match melee more closely, changes are very unlikely for the rest of Melee's top 8. Ice Climbers and Sheik are most different from their Melee incarnations, and that's on purpose.

Because the OP was not referring to the spacies I hope you are not either and there is still hope for them being changed. I guess Jigglypuff will forever be lacking in PM. Sucks for her.

 

[Terotrous]

I honestly feel like a couple of the Melee tops could use some small nerfs, simply because if you elevated everyone to their level the game would be too bonkers. Fox UpSmash seems like a perfect example of something that's just a bit too good. Fox is already super good and has great kill potential on a lot of different moves, what is the design rationale for him having one of the fastest and most powerful UpSmashes in the entire game other than the fact that Melee did it that way?

I'm fine with it staying super fast, but I feel its knockback power should be brought in line with other UpSmashes that are comparably fast. Otherwise, for balance we'd have to give everyone else an easily comboable kill move that kills at 100% and I don't think we want that.

It's kind of like how even though PM doesn't nerf bat Metaknight into oblivion, some of the most ridiculous aspects of his character (like Mach Tornado) were toned down a bit for the sake of overall game balance.


And yeah, I hope it's clear that while Jiggs might be top 8 in Melee, she is nowhere near top 8 in P:M.

 

[Strong Badam]

jigglypuff, or any other character for that matter, does not necessarily deserve a high place on the tier list. if she's below average despite matching melee 100% perfectly, then so be it. she's certainly viable.

 

[Terotrous]

jigglypuff, or any other character for that matter, does not necessarily deserve a high place on the tier list. if she's below average despite matching melee 100% perfectly, then so be it. she's certainly viable.

I would like to see proof of that viability. Hungrybox is one of the only players who plays her in tournaments and even he's been switching away from her on a near constant basis as of late. Jiggs vs Mewtwo looks very much like 2-8, and Jiggs vs Ivysaur probably is too. Here's some videos of Hungrybox Jiggs looking completely free vs them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTpFCmPGDc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C91CKScFmPk


From a purely design standpoint, I feel that Jiggs has lost her one strong point from Melee, which was her unparalleled aerial game, thanks to the buffing of several other characters. The newly improved Kirby and Metaknight can obviously contest her air game, and they are much more versatile overall. Squirtle does the weave as well or better than she does and has some tools to help him get in that she lacks, as well as his ridiculous UpSmash. It also doesn't help that there's now a lot of good characters with big disjoints, like Mewtwo, Link, and Ivysaur, as these characters can put up an extremely effective wall against her very limited offensive options.

I feel that Jiggs was a character who was good in Melee simply because she had answers to the good characters in the game. The cast of viable characters in P:M is much more diverse, and a totally 1-dimensional character like Jigglypuff has problems with quite a few of them. At the very least, I feel like one of either Up B or Side B needs to be made into a useful move, Jiggs is the only character in the game who has two totally useless B moves, and not coincidentally, she's one of the least versatile characters in the game.

 

[Strong Badam]

how is getting 2nd place unviable

 

[Terotrous]

how is getting 2nd place unviable

It doesn't really count as a second place for Jigglypuff when she's not winning many of the rounds. It was really Hungrybox's Olimar and Mario who earned that second place.

 

[Xinc]

I feel like the newcomers are some of the most dangerous ones around. The Melee veterans may want some buffs to keep being in the running. I'm looking straight at Marth, Jiggs, Ganon, in particular.

 

[MagnesD3]

I hope but I doubt it :/

 

[GreenMunchkin]

If you literally made Jigg's rest heal like it does in Brawl Minus, Improved the secondary climber AI some more, and slightly nerfed spacies, I feel like the balance would be a lot better. No other Melee vet needs changing; Falcon, Ganon, Sheik, and Marth are all perfectly viable still, despite the naysayers. Although I wouldn't mind too much if you added wobbling, and gave all ICs smash attacks super armor :D.

 

[Terotrous]

If you literally made Jigg's rest heal like it does in Brawl Minus, Improved the secondary climber AI some more, and slightly nerfed spacies, I feel like the balance would be a lot better. No other Melee vet needs changing; Falcon, Ganon, Sheik, and Marth are all perfectly viable still, despite the naysayers. Although I wouldn't mind too much if you added wobbling, and gave all ICs smash attacks super armor :D.

I don't think the Rest change would really help. On small stages, it's still an absurdly free punish (unless you also make Jigglypuff wake up way faster), and she'd still have problems closing in on people with long range. Brawl- also buffed both Sing and Rollout to address that problem.

I also disagree about Ganon being totally viable, I think he also needs a bit of help. He's basically just a slower Captain Falcon, and Captain Falcon already kills you if he gets in, so he doesn't have any big advantages to compensate for the lack of speed. I really feel that he needs a projectile to replace his worthless neutral B.

 

[Bazkip]

I also disagree about Ganon being totally viable, I think he also needs a bit of help. He's basically just a slower Captain Falcon, and Captain Falcon already kills you if he gets in, so he doesn't have any big advantages to compensate for the lack of speed. I really feel that he needs a projectile to replace his worthless neutral B.

Ganon is not just a slower Falcon, their playstyles are quite different. Ganon's punished based whereas Falcon is pure aggro. I do agree that Ganon needs some tweaking, but giving him a projectile is not an answer. It doesn't fit his playstyle whatsoever, and they can't add articles anywho

 

[CyberZixx]

Ganon is not just a slower Falcon, their playstyles are quite different. Ganon's punished based whereas Falcon is pure aggro. I do agree that Ganon needs some tweaking, but giving him a projectile is not an answer. It doesn't fit his playstyle whatsoever, and they can't add articles anywho

I would say Captain falcon is very much punishment based. His whole gameplan revolves around movement to conversion which ideally ends in a knee. Ganon's punishment game is often a strong hit or two.

 

[Bazkip]

I would say Captain falcon is very much punishment based. His whole gameplan revolves around movement to conversion which ideally ends in a knee. Ganon's punishment game is often a strong hit or two.

Falcon creates those openings by just relentlessly rushing in, Ganon needs to wait for or bait a mistake

 

[Saito]

slightly nerfed spacies

It won't happen.

 

[Terotrous]

Falcon creates those openings by just relentlessly rushing in, Ganon needs to wait for or bait a mistake

Falcon can punish too, though, arguably even better than Ganon since he's faster and has such deadly combos. He can also create opportunities, which Ganon has trouble doing. Hence why I see Ganon as basically just being worse Falcon. I mean sure, he has better tech chases, but he has trouble initiating those tech chases, and who needs to chase when you can just kill people off a single throw as Falcon anyway?

I actually feel a projectile would help Ganon a lot. It would either force people to approach him, thereby removing his difficulty in getting in (if you can't come to them, make them come to you), or alternatively it could put pressure on the opponent, forcing them to deal with it in some way that creates an opening for him. He also uses a lot of projectiles in the games, and it would help differentiate him from Falcon a bit more.

Also, they created Solarbeam for Ivysaur, and Brawl- gave Ganondorf a projectile. It's got to be possible.

 

[Bazkip]

Falcon can punish too, though, arguably even better than Ganon since he's faster and has such deadly combos. He can also create opportunities, which Ganon has trouble doing. Hence why I see Ganon as basically just being worse Falcon. I mean sure, he has better tech chases, but he has trouble initiating those tech chases, and who needs to chase when you can just kill people off a single throw as Falcon anyway?

I actually feel a projectile would help Ganon a lot. It would either force people to approach him, thereby removing his difficulty in getting in (if you can't come to them, make them come to you), or alternatively it could put pressure on the opponent, forcing them to deal with it in some way that creates an opening for him. He also uses a lot of projectiles in the games, and it would help differentiate him from Falcon a bit more.

Also, they created Solarbeam for Ivysaur, and Brawl- gave Ganondorf a projectile. It's got to be possible.

I don't even get why you're arguing this, it seems very clear to me and many others that Falcon is not very well off in this game. Ganon also has some trouble, but not quite as severe. I guess it's just down to opinions though. We're not really getting anywhere with this except kinda off topic.

In regards to projectiles though, there's no argument. The PMBR has said more than once that they can't add projectiles, only modify them. Solarbeam is simply replacing another article Ivysaur had. As for Brawl-, I believe that's a "faux" projectile, I don't know for certain but I think that's something the PMBR doesn't want to do.

 

[Spralwers]

Brawl- Ganondorf projectile is a fully charged super scope shot.

 

[trash?]

SB, you're missing the point where jigglypuff isn't good in melee, she's anti-metagame. she does perfectly fine against the top 8 cast from melee... and only a handful of others, going as far as to have problem matchups in the mid-tiers. this is no longer a game where she only has to worry about the melee top 8, this is a game where those problem matchups in the mid-tier have only gotten better, and she now has to deal with dozens of characters at once. she's polarizingly dumb, and "bcuz melee" has never, EVER worked as an argument against this

 

[Bazkip]

Brawl- Ganondorf projectile is a fully charged super scope shot.

Oh lol, I was just taking a guess at it being a fake projectile since I've seen that sort of things elsewhere. Still, I'm sure that's done in some pretty hacky way that the Project M team doesn't want to do

 

[Terotrous]

I don't even get why you're arguing this, it seems very clear to me and many others that Falcon is not very well off in this game. Ganon also has some trouble, but not quite as severe.

Falcon has strong upsides balanced out by strong downsides, the general consensus seems to be that he's around mid tier. Ganon is mostly just downsides and the consensus seems to be that he's low / bottom tier.

In general, from Melee to PM, zoning and poking got a lot better, so a solid approach is much more important than it used to be. This is also why Jiggs has trouble. You can't just assume that all the strong characters will come to you anymore.

 

[Bazkip]

Falcon has strong upsides balanced out by strong downsides, the general consensus seems to be that he's around mid tier. Ganon is mostly just downsides and the consensus seems to be that he's low / bottom tier.

In general, from Melee to PM, zoning and poking got a lot better, so a solid approach is much more important than it used to be. This is also why Jiggs has trouble. You can't just assume that all the strong characters will come to you anymore.

I rarely see Falcon being played outside of the odd Melee vet who's relatively new to PM, conversly I see quite a few Ganons in competitive play. Maybe I'm just missing it, but that's gotta say something.

Jiggs definitely needs some work though, I agree with you on that.

 

[Terotrous]

I rarely see Falcon being played outside of the odd Melee vet who's relatively new to PM, conversly I see quite a few Ganons in competitive play.

This is all super regional. I watch SAX and the rest of the stuff VGBootcamp streams, and Falcon is fairly common, while Ganon is rare. But just because something is rare doesn't make it bad anyway, for example Luigi is really rare, but Vist makes him look like he's at least mid tier.

 

[turtletank]

I'm still hoping for a change in Jiggs design. It's not a question of whether she's viable or not, her entire meta revolves around a handful of moves while the rest are near useless. Reducing polarity within her moveset would likely allow for a more "flexible" meta for different matchups.

 

[StKo]

This is all super regional. I watch SAX and the rest of the stuff VGBootcamp streams, and Falcon is fairly common, while Ganon is rare. But just because something is rare doesn't make it bad anyway, for example Luigi is really rare, but Vist makes him look like he's at least mid tier.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams
I don't know how much to take from these rankings, but it seems to me that Ganon isn't as rare that you think. Not as much as Captain Falcon yeah, but Ganon seems to be pretty good at making at least top 16 and top 8.

I've lost track of the rest of this argument though

EDIT: Dang link won't work, oh wells its just this sites character rankings under the Rankings tab up there ^

 

[TreK]

other than making them match melee more closely, changes are very unlikely for the rest of Melee's top 8. Ice Climbers and Sheik are most different from their Melee incarnations, and that's on purpose.

Where is the Stronk Bad that said you aren't going to play a 2001 character in a 2014 game ?
#ObviousBait (but I'd still like an honest answer. My guess is that you're using those characters as the reference frame for your balancing works to begin with so it would make no sense to change them, but I could be wrong)

 

[GreenMunchkin]

It won't happen.

A MAN CAN DREAM, CAN HE NOT?!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I strongly believe that if HBox is struggling with Jiggs in this game, it's a red flag. Dude's amazing but he had to bust out the OliMario when it came to crunch time on several occasions: Denti, Oro?! and M2K (Shuffle V), Axe (Apex) who are all around the level the game is expected to be played at.

Melee top 8 still need some touching up, i.m.h.o. At least Ganon is not part of that, though.

 

[Saito]

Melee top 8 still need some touching up, i.m.h.o.

Fox and Falco exist in the top 8 though.

 

[Fortress]

Fox and Falco exist in the top 8 though.

Needs more up-smash, tho. Or I quit PM.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Needs more up-smash, tho. Or I quit PM.

Good thing they left Sheik untouched, how mad would you be if they changed something important to her play for the sake of overall balance.