Anyone feel like Sheik is overrated?

[Ravik]

Hey guys, long time Sheik player here. Maybe you remember me as stealth3654? Anyways...

Doesn't it feel like she was nerfed super hard going from brawl to sm4sh? I feel uair is worse, fair (while we get more range) is worse, dsmash is worse, side b is arguably worse, and needles are much worse... Not to mention the nerfs after the game was released. Gimping is even harder in this game for sheik, bouncing fish you can see coming, vanish is risky as always. Can people still DI out of her fsmash? I know that she can do aerial needles > bouncing fish, but ok. Also the fair strings only do 20% when you get 4 in a row.

Idk, feels like a lot of work for little return or maybe I'm just reminiscing

 

[Tristan_win]

Hey guys, long time Sheik player here. Maybe you remember me as stealth3654? Anyways...

Doesn't it feel like she was nerfed super hard going from brawl to sm4sh? I feel uair is worse, fair (while we get more range) is worse, dsmash is worse, side b is arguably worse, and needles are much worse... Not to mention the nerfs after the game was released. Gimping is even harder in this game for sheik, bouncing fish you can see coming, vanish is risky as always. Can people still DI out of her fsmash? I know that she can do aerial needles > bouncing fish, but ok. Also the fair strings only do 20% when you get 4 in a row.

Idk, feels like a lot of work for little return or maybe I'm just reminiscing

: 3

I recognize the name Stealth but I don't think I ever talk to you 1on1 before. It's good to see you making a return though as you were a good member of Brawl small community of Sheiks. If you think you be around for a while and have skype pm me your name and I'll add you to our skype thinktank/community. I do agree with you fully though how Sheik is in a lot of ways worst then what she was in Brawl which is part of the reason Brawl Sheik is still my favorite version. ^-^ Here's the thing though

Sheik individual moves are for the most part worst but Smash4 mechanics greatly help make her better.

Because of this she's consider one of the best characters in the game but unlike Diddy she still demands a high level of players skill to get results, although once you learn how to always DI Diddy dthrow (toward him or the direction his back is facing) the match up gets a lot easier on a basic level.

 

[etecoon]

Bouncing fish is huge, not only as an attack but for added mobility and recovery. Diddy, Sheik, and ZSS all have this kind of mobile special and that's 3 of the top 5 in all likelyhood, it's a really good thing to have in this game. Vanish is also a bit safer and the mechanics of the game have weakened some kinds of traps. This Sheik is more built for flexibility, yes you can't ftilt someone literally to death anymore, but you get out of a lot of punishment yourself in return

SDI isn't really a thing from what I can tell, I haven't noticed fsmash being very unreliable but I still don't go for it often because Brawl habit...

Also I think everyone got nerfs going into this game, even characters that were already bad like Ganondorf lost his AC dair and his side B is techable now. Sheik still retains the core of what was good from Brawl and has gained some new strengths, while many of the characters previously above her like Marth, Falco, MK, and Olimar have had more significant losses

 

[Ravik]

Hey Tristan, it's been a while!

Glad to see I'm not the only one that feels that way. I prob just need to spend time getting use to the changes. I know other character boards are going through the same thing. Until I can get my hands on a GC controller adapter my time playing the game will be limited, but i'll send you my skype anyways.

 

[Judo777]

Bouncing fish is huge, not only as an attack but for added mobility and recovery. Diddy, Sheik, and ZSS all have this kind of mobile special and that's 3 of the top 5 in all likelyhood, it's a really good thing to have in this game. Vanish is also a bit safer and the mechanics of the game have weakened some kinds of traps. This Sheik is more built for flexibility, yes you can't ftilt someone literally to death anymore, but you get out of a lot of punishment yourself in return

SDI isn't really a thing from what I can tell, I haven't noticed fsmash being very unreliable but I still don't go for it often because Brawl habit...

Also I think everyone got nerfs going into this game, even characters that were already bad like Ganondorf lost his AC dair and his side B is techable now. Sheik still retains the core of what was good from Brawl and has gained some new strengths, while many of the characters previously above her like Marth, Falco, MK, and Olimar have had more significant losses

Vanish much less safe than it was in Brawl. Like its pretty surprising, probably a solid 10 frames less safe (mostly due to her distance traveled being shorter in vanish).

@ Ravik , is that Billy? I remember you posting in Brawl, I always thought you were Billy. I said the same thing about Sheik from Brawl. Yes at face value many of her moves are worse. Except Needles they are better actually.They have knockback now which is huge. Her biggest buff (other than possibly bouncing fish) is that her airspeed is vastly superior relative to the rest of the cast. She still is horrid at killing.

 

[Ravik]

Hey Judo! Yeah, it's me, although I go by Will now but it's whatever. I'm back baby!

I saw Mr. R use aerial needles to bouncing fish, which was pretty neat. She's just so much different than her brawl counter-part that it's like re-learning half the character again.

 

[AUS]

I have felt like Sheik is overrated since 3DS, coming from a melee Sheik main I find her quite limited especially against other high tiers such as ZSS, Diddy and Rosalina. While I think my mindset may change this is why I don't think she as high tier as originally thought (and yes I know its way too early to be considering tiers Im just throwing this out there). Sheik in Smash 4 is very fast, this is her main strength, Fair's can be chained in succession quite easily racking up much damage, Up B causes way more damage than it did in melee making is almost a bit of an offensive move. Despite this however she has a very hard time killing, unlike in Melee Fair does not have as much knock-back which was Sheik's main kill move, Bouncing Fish while at the opening of Smash 4 seemed like the number one kill move it is now more predictable and fairly easy to avoid. As of late I have never been hit by a single Bouncing Fish in either friendlies or for glory matches. That's just what I think.

 

[Dagon97]

I think Sheik can be played so many ways and all require a lot of charecter knowledge even though not to the extent as Shulk. Sheik has a lot of read based kills off of throws and BF edgeguards. Down throw to an up-b read and such can punish a lot of habits regardless of what they are. At a low level sheik she is terrible but at a high level she is very good. Her only bad matchup is Ness and ROB.

 

[Killtrox]

Opinions on what happened with Mr. R at Apex? I honestly thought he and Nietono were playing amazing. I'm still confused as to how they actually didn't rank higher.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Definitely think sheik is overrated. She's definitely going to stay high tier but all those claiming she will be the best character in the game are delusional. for one, as another user in this thread pointed out people are respecting sheik too much when in reality her attacks aren't that scary at all and all her kill moves are highly telegraphed and require hard reads that simply will not be reliable against opponents experienced enough with the matchup over time. "But sheik can get the gimp!" yeah, sheik has her fair share of great gimping tools but getting back on stage is so easy for most characters in this game that relying on gimp alone is highly unreliable and if you can't get an early gimp you're doomed to a slow uphill battle where none of your combos will work anymore and you can't kill. I personally predict yoshi to rise above her.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik is the bees knees.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Definitely think sheik is overrated. She's definitely going to stay high tier but all those claiming she will be the best character in the game are delusional. for one, as another user in this thread pointed out people are respecting sheik too much when in reality her attacks aren't that scary at all and all her kill moves are highly telegraphed and require hard reads that simply will not be reliable against opponents experienced enough with the matchup over time. "But sheik can get the gimp!" yeah, sheik has her fair share of great gimping tools but getting back on stage is so easy for most characters in this game that relying on gimp alone is highly unreliable and if you can't get an early gimp you're doomed to a slow uphill battle where none of your combos will work anymore and you can't kill. I personally predict yoshi to rise above her.

Tournament results thus far would beg to differ. There were just as many Sheik players in the top 5 at Apex 1v1 as there were Diddys, and most YouTube tournament replays involving Sheik have her as the winner. She's tough to master, but someone who is able to move well, combo effectively, and not telegraph their finishing moves is going to go far.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

^for the time being yes but the meta is till very young.

 

[S_B]

I know a lot of people think sheik is top tier, but I feel like with the correct spacing tools she can really struggle against defensive options. I would love to hear anyone's opinion on this.

I think Shiek actually needs a small nerf (keyword: small).

Bouncing fish is insanely good for edgeguarding (and hits stupidly hard in general), and provides an excellent recovery option to Shiek's already solid recovery. Plus, she can F-air escort several of the cast from one side of the stage to the other. Then, there's the ability to steal double jumps with needles, and the fact that Shiek's Up+b puts out two very powerful hitboxes

If Palutena is the goddess of light, Shiek is the goddess of neutral...and edgeguarding.

Seriously, watch this video for example:

Abandango is playing his HEART out, and it's clear that the Shiek player doesn't really know the matchup all that well, but Shiek just has too many tools at her disposal. Earlier in the tourney, Abandango soundly beat a skilled Diddy player as well.

I wouldn't suggest anything large for a nerf, maybe just stop F-air from auto canceling or increase Shiek's landing lag ever so slightly so it's not possible to FF, land, jump and F-air again before the opponent has recovered from the stun.

Shiek just needs to have a weakness SOMEWHERE, and for those who say "Shiek has a hard time killing!", I would point to the fact that B-air, U-air and bouncing fish are all amazing kill moves. Also, Shiek may be light, but not so light as to justify her agility and combo potential.

Shiek is also to heavyweights what Marth was to Ness and Lucas in Brawl...

So yeah, no huge nerfs, but I think something very slight would be in order (no ham-fisted huge nerfs to damage or anything like that...).

Oh, and if you want a good mix-up kill move, d-throw and chase into the air for U-air a few times to condition your opponent. Then, swap for Up-B. If timed correctly, they'll be airdodging to avoid the U-air just in time for the hitbox from Up-B to nail them...

Opinions on what happened with Mr. R at Apex? I honestly thought he and Nietono were playing amazing. I'm still confused as to how they actually didn't rank higher.

Erm, isn't this Mr. R in winners finals at Apex against ZeRo himself?

I mean, that's pretty damn good, and he could've easily made it to grand finals had he not come up against one of (possibly THE) best Diddys in the world...

 

[Tristan_win]

I think Shiek actually needs a small nerf (keyword: small).

Bouncing fish is insanely good for edgeguarding (and hits stupidly hard in general), and provides an excellent recovery option to Shiek's already solid recovery. Plus, she can F-air escort several of the cast from one side of the stage to the other. Then, there's the ability to steal double jumps with needles, and the fact that Shiek's Up+b puts out two very powerful hitboxes

If Palutena is the goddess of light, Shiek is the goddess of neutral...and edgeguarding.

Seriously, watch this video for example:

Abandango is playing his HEART out, and it's clear that the Shiek player doesn't really know the matchup all that well, but Shiek just has too many tools at her disposal. Earlier in the tourney, Abandango soundly beat a skilled Diddy player as well.

I wouldn't suggest anything large for a nerf, maybe just stop F-air from auto canceling or increase Shiek's landing lag ever so slightly so it's not possible to FF, land, jump and F-air again before the opponent has recovered from the stun.

Shiek just needs to have a weakness SOMEWHERE, and for those who say "Shiek has a hard time killing!", I would point to the fact that B-air, U-air and bouncing fish are all amazing kill moves. Also, Shiek may be light, but not so light as to justify her agility and combo potential.

So yeah, no huge nerfs, but I think something very slight would be in order (no ham-fisted huge nerfs to damage or anything like that...).

I do agree with you that Sheik could take a little nerf but I think you overestimate the points your brought up.

Bouncing fish is actually not that strong with it being weaker then most smash attacks in the game if not all of them and it doesn't really kill unless landed at a high percentage (like around 110% on fricken jigglypuff) from the edge of FD hitting outward or off stage. It also doesn't rage that much compared to other attacks in the game becoming 13% stronger at 100%.... Still I think BF is what helps makes Sheik so 'broken' not for it's kill power but it's utility. It's super combo friendly, does good damage in a single hit (for Sheik), fairly fast and has low cool down and it's pretty damn disjointed. Because of this I almost expect it to be nerf but only for it's low cool down. I abuse it with a smile in every game I play but it shouldn't be so safe on block and should be more punishable so I feel the best nerf to BF would be to increase the duration of the move. If the duration was increased then no longer could Sheik just escape any juggle attempt with a bf, recovering would become more difficult and throwing it out would become more risky but it would still be just as useful.

Fair 'escorting' sadly isn't really a thing in smash4 after the nerf to fair which change it's knock back to be more vertical then ever before. Sheik will still be able to get 2 fair on you no problem in the low percents but beyond that it's really DI dependent and character base. I could respect making fair less auto cancel friendly though as it wouldn't be a huge nerf but it would hurt some of her aggressive gameplay.

You make it sound like stealing double jumps with needles is easy, it's not and with how much lag needles have a lot of the time if you miss you wont be able to stop them from grabbing the ledge. Also a lot of recoveries in this game can recover high which completely bypass this.

Okay, vanish is stupid strong, like... So good but on the 2nd hit I'm pretty sure has a set knock back so I would hardly call it 'very powerful hitbox' I'll die a little inside if they nerf vanish in anyway, especially because it's not abused enough yet in Sheik play. EDIT: Unless a global nerf happen with teleport recoveries with the room to punish someone the exact instant they grab the ledge increased.

Uair is proving it's self to be a good kill move but nothing compare to characters like Diddy kong or Luigi down B. Killing most around 125% (assuming they DI) isn't exactly the best thing ever not to mention if you have any sort of rage going it's going to be REALLY hard to land dthrow into uair with your opponent DI away.

Bair is strong but it's skill dependent, requiring the foot to connect as it comes out to get best results. I don't think it needs a nerf as is but only because it's similar to Marth tipper Fsmash but kills like 50-60% later then it. I could see it get a speed nerf with it being 3 frames is a bit silly, maybe 5 like fair would make it better? I guess increasing the lag Sheik gets when she fails to auto cancel the move would also be acceptable as long it was done within reason. Now a nerf/buff I would like to see would be if they nerf non tipper knock back by like 5% and increased tipper knock back by 5%. This would make it on par of vanish which be really interesting as it would reward proper spacing more and punish those that do not.


To wrap things up I'll just like to point out how Nintendo has already nerf Sheik once on a lot of things you listed. BF (knock back nerfs), uair (damage and knock back nerfs) fair (damage and change knock back which made it less combo friendly).

 

[S_B]

Bouncing fish is actually not that strong with it being weaker then most smash attacks in the game if not all of them and it doesn't really kill unless landed at a high percentage (like around 110% on fricken jigglypuff) from the edge of FD hitting outward or off stage.

True, but it's insanely useful as an edgeguard and as part of a combo. Mr. R showed us in the video I posted that needles > bouncing fish can actually work.

Also, I should point out that Mr. R managed to take a game off of ZeRo whereas ZeRo swept Dabuz's Olimar in the finals.

All things considered, Shiek as a completely package is pretty damn amazing, maybe only slightly less amazing than Diddy (who I suspect will be toned down slightly in a future patch, maybe when M2 is released).

To wrap things up I'll just like to point out how Nintendo has already nerf Sheik once on a lot of things you listed. BF (knock back nerfs), uair (damage and knock back nerfs) fair (damage and change knock back which made it less combo friendly).

Do you mean from Brawl to 4 or was there a patch that nerfed Shiek?

 

[Tristan_win]

True, but it's insanely useful as an edgeguard and as part of a combo. Mr. R showed us in the video I posted that needles > bouncing fish can actually work.

Also, I should point out that Mr. R managed to take a game off of ZeRo whereas ZeRo swept Dabuz's Olimar in the finals.

All things considered, Shiek as a completely package is pretty damn amazing, maybe only slightly less amazing than Diddy (who I suspect will be toned down slightly in a future patch, maybe when M2 is released).



Do you mean from Brawl to 4 or was there a patch that nerfed Shiek?

Yup I know and it's very sexy, still at this point if they nerf how fast the move comes out, it's hit boxes or knock back it would greatly weaken sheik. Even cutting on the damage would be pretty painful since we depend on it for it's damage. I don't think hope Nintendo wont drastically change a character move purpose if it hasn't been proven broken if only for the entertainment for the users. Diddy kong dthrow into uair I feel is somewhat different though but at the same time a lot easier to fix then BF. Like you could increased how much rage effects diddy kong dthrow making it less combo friendly in killing percents, you could make it so dthrow is more DI friendly, you could make the dthrow it's self slower so it give people more time to react and DI (I think this would be the best nerf personally), you could weaken uair which is the nerf everyone wants but would make Diddy really sad, you could increase it's knock back in the low percents but make it scale much slower with damage making it less combo friendly in the low percents but kill just as well. Diddy kong overall is REALLY good but if they addressed his dthrow uair combo with a slight nerf he wouldn't lose his 'best character' title but it would make it more difficult for him to win which is what everyone really wants.... that and nerfing his monkey noises, it would be so amazing if they cut it down to like a 1/4 chance of him making them instead of every time.

No disrespect to Dabuz but the reason for that could be because Mr. R is actually a better player and just happen to get knock out before him. The same could be said about m2k. If m2k and Zero didn't have to fight so early on maybe grand finals would of been a Ditto match.


Yeah smash4 had a big patch and Sheik was nerf SUPER hard but due to the change of mechanics in the game she became better in the end.

 

[S_B]

Yup I know and it's very sexy, still at this point if they nerf how fast the move comes out, it's hit boxes or knock back it would greatly weaken sheik. Even cutting on the damage would be pretty painful since we depend on it for it's damage.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they buffed the knockback on several of Shiek's aerials, but removed the ability to combo like crazy. I feel like Shiek already has some amazing approaches (mainly just through crazy speed) and doesn't need the combos on top of it.

No disrespect to Dabuz but the reason for that could be because Mr. R is actually a better player and just happen to get knock out before him. The same could be said about m2k. If m2k and Zero didn't have to fight so early on maybe grand finals would of been a Ditto match.

I suspect Mr. R would've beaten Dabuz in finals. Dabuz beat M2K's Diddy in finals, but it was clear that ZeRo's was just that much more developed.

Long before the Diddy hype train got rolling, I tooled around with him and it was immediately apparent just how awesome and combo friendly he was going to be. Diddy is pure poetry in motion, as is Shiek, really.

Yeah smash4 had a big patch and Sheik was nerf SUPER hard but due to the change of mechanics in the game she became better in the end.

Ah, I see. I've not kept track of what patches have done to each individual character as there's a lot to keep track of.

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they buffed the knockback on several of Shiek's aerials, but removed the ability to combo like crazy. I feel like Shiek already has some amazing approaches (mainly just through crazy speed) and doesn't need the combos on top of it.



I suspect Mr. R would've beaten Dabuz in finals. Dabuz beat M2K's Diddy in finals, but it was clear that ZeRo's was just that much more developed.

If you watch Mr.R vs Dabuz Loser's finals, you can see how much Sheik struggles to get those kills. Mr.R was no doubt the better player, and he played his heart out. Yet 1 bair from Rosalina at 90 pretty much sealed the deal. It was honestly really frustrating watching how creative he had to be to get those kills, and Dabuz finding them without nearly as much effort. When Sheik has trouble killing at 150% +, raking up that % just isn't that big of a deal anymore. Especially when there are some characters that can kill at half that % with rage. Sheik just isn't as amazing as some people make her out to be.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

^THIS. when you struggle to kill jigglypuff of all characters at 110% you know your character has a big weakness. Compare this to falcon who can kill sheik as low as 75% with a side b, or diddy and his "hoo-ha", rosalina and her uair and all smashes(with rage i've even gotten kills with rosaluma's down smash of all things), luigi and his down throw followups of low % death(and sweetspot up b), etc.. point is racking up % generally means more with most other characters.

 

[Killtrox]

^THIS. when you struggle to kill jigglypuff of all characters at 110% you know your character has a big weakness. Compare this to falcon who can kill sheik as low as 75% with a side b, or diddy and his "hoo-ha", rosalina and her uair and all smashes(with rage i've even gotten kills with rosaluma's down smash of all things), luigi and his down throw followups of low % death(and sweetspot up b), etc.. point is racking up % generally means more with most other characters.

Or, at the least, racking up isn't as necessary.

Captain Falcon, my main, while lacking in some areas, has a load of moves that kill reliably. All smash attacks, uair, fair especially, bair. His tilts have good range and knockback.

Then, there's the fact he has two moves that spike, his dair and utilt. Like, holy ****. I had a match where I took this Shulk player's stocks really quickly simply because of the utilt spiking so hard.

Sheik, with all of her nonexistent kill power, also has no spikes, and dair is more likely to kill you than your opponent.

Edit: Here's what I'm talking about. The stocks are taken about 20 seconds apart. Sheik, on the other hand, would need to fair Shulk across the stage three times and land needles->bouncing fish to maybe get the kill, or get a solid grenade out.

Recorded with my phone, sorry for the quality.

 

[S_B]

If you watch Mr.R vs Dabuz Loser's finals, you can see how much Sheik struggles to get those kills. Mr.R was no doubt the better player, and he played his heart out. Yet 1 bair from Rosalina at 90 pretty much sealed the deal. It was honestly really frustrating watching how creative he had to be to get those kills, and Dabuz finding them without nearly as much effort. When Sheik has trouble killing at 150% +, raking up that % just isn't that big of a deal anymore. Especially when there are some characters that can kill at half that % with rage. Sheik just isn't as amazing as some people make her out to be.

Rosalina may be one of Shiek's worse matchups (her recovery is amazing making her impossible to gimp, she can play extremely defensively and Luma eats needles for her), but that doesn't change how incredibly in favor most matchups are for Shiek (and let's face it: Nintendo has toned characters down for less).

Also, I've seen people struggle much harder to land kills in matches. I've seen Bowser players struggle to land that killing blow. Does that make Bowser underpowered? Plus, R could've used bouncing fish to return to the ledge instead of up+B and he could've won that first match...

Lack of kill power isn't an issue when you're insanely good at racking up damage AND shutting your opponent out of damaging you (which Shiek is also pretty damn amazing at).

And good god, no, Shiek does NOT need a spike...

This doesn't mean that other characters don't need to be toned down as well, just that Shiek is among their number.

Captain Falcon, my main, while lacking in some areas, has a load of moves that kill reliably. All smash attacks, uair, fair especially, bair. His tilts have good range and knockback.

Ironically, Mr. R did fairly well as Shiek against Dabuz and at least brought the games close whereas switching to Falcon got him 2-stocked...

And for the record, I'd rather Shiek had more killing power and a bit less combo power, personally... The killing power is livable but the combo power is just nuts (especially against heavyweight characters...).

 

[cFive]

didnt read full thread but imo:
its very hard to play sheik good, she definitelly is number 2 on my tierlist... but like i said, not everyone can play her so she reaches this second place!