Anyone contemplating giving up?

[Jebril]

I guess it should be worded like this, Bowser Jr. is DECENT at best, he can actually beat a fair amount of characters if played right.

But he will get completely wrecked in certain MUs, unless you feel like torturing yourself I highly suggest not using Bowser Jr. competitively and just finding another character that you click with in High Tier or above.

That being said, the game is still in its infancy, things can change and patches will come. And I personally really like Bowser Jr.'s playstyle it's actually a TON of fun. A lot more unique than most of the new characters from what I've seen.

 

[Neverbound]

Bring back wolf plz

 

[Meek Moths]

your favourite charater will never become top tier

 

[Sea Buoy]

It looks like the consensus here is to either give up or bombard Nintendo with pleas to buff this character. But as cliche as it may sound, I actually see hidden potential there that people don't see, even if they're trying their hardest to look for it through bias and desire.

Sure, Bowser Jr's moves are a bit odd at first, but that does not make him a bad character. It makes him unique in his gameplay. I think the ideal plan for Bowser Jr. is to play him as a spacing character that reacts to approaches. His aerials and smashes are incredibly strong and just require patience and some know how to optimally utilize.

Been playing Bowser Jr. since the Wii U version came out, and he's complete trash.

Honestly, I think this has to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read since I started browsing on Smashboards. Congratulations. You have all the knowledge that can be possibly obtained within a couple of weeks. I don't believe that anything should be declared with absolution because metagame and tactics cannot possibly have been developed within a game so young. There are some Brawl mechanics and methods that carry over, but beyond that, this is an entirely new game that requires dedication to truly understand.

Bowser Jr. has outstanding potential and it is a crime to pigeonhole him as anything less.

 

[meleebrawler]

Anyone try launching MechaKoopas backward? It
basically gives you something to cover your retreat
should things go badly on offense.

And if your opponent is reflect-happy with them, you
can just drive over them.

 

[foxyopiumfun]

This post screams "Not top tier, won't use"

 

[Jebril]

Honestly, I think this has to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read since I started browsing on Smashboards. Congratulations. You have all the knowledge that can be possibly obtained within a couple of weeks. I don't believe that anything should be declared with absolution because metagame and tactics cannot possibly have been developed within a game so young. There are some Brawl mechanics and methods that carry over, but beyond that, this is an entirely new game that requires dedication to truly understand.

Considering that you're new to Smash Boards (or at least that account is) it doesn't surprise me. I understood when writing that post that I would upset some people, the only reason I said what I said is because I understand that a character withouth a safe approach is nearly useless. If someone can find a safe approach within Bowser Jr.'s moveset things would change, until then I can safely say he's a bad character in a competitive. sense.

 

[Melonfrog]

1v1 he is, meh at best. 2v2 Bowser Jr. Kicks so much arse it is unreal. So I think he is destined to be a support character in 2v2 matches.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bowser Jr has somewhat of a learning curve to him. If you play as him straight forwarded, yes, you'll going to get beat a lot. If anything, he reminds me of Wario in how you get an advantage by being tricky and using a lot of misdirection. I'd argue he's primarily about stage control which means that you have to get down to spacing of his attacks to be good with him. As others have said, he'll probably never be better than high middle tier but he's far from being a bad character. I personally feel like most of the newcomers have decent learning curves and, aside from Greninja, the Miis, Lucina, and Dark Pit, they aren't just characters you can jump in and play as.

 

[Coney]

this character sucks

get out while you can

 

[Ze Diglett]

As much as I love Bowser Jr. and his swanky- pimpmobile, he is kind of frustrating to get the hang of. Many of his attacks are laggy as hell, ESPECIALLY his aerials and neutral B, and while they certainly have the power behind them, they just become frustratingly difficult to land on more mobile fighters like Greninja and ZSS.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up on Junior (pimpmobile tho), and I'm certainly not one to immediately jump for top-tier characters, but I just can't really see him being that great.
His edgeguarding game, though... dayum.

 

[LwYz.Ph.]

Anyone try launching MechaKoopas backward? It
basically gives you something to cover your retreat
should things go badly on offense.

And if your opponent is reflect-happy with them, you
can just drive over them.

This.

If I can, I always drop mechakoopas from behind and try to "approach" slightly (or agressive with the kart) to the opponent and it's surprising how some people will lose track because the mk is not on screen, they roll and get hit by it or at least see it blowing up and shield, in which case a dash grab or another mk drop from behind can be tried.

Also if you drop the mk from behind near the edge (like, in the start of a match) you can either pick it up easily or do what I mentioned before (don't try this against fast characters that are on the gorund and can dash grab you while droping the mk, in this case only works if they are in hitstun in the air like after a throw or something).

 

[RomanceDawn]

Went to a tournament yesterday and saw guy destroying people with Bowser Jr. He ultimately came in second to a Dedede user who went by the name of Chazo.

Characters aren't created equally but hopefully people really figure things out with Jr and exploit the heck out of it. I stuck with Bowser and DK during all of Brawls life span, I can stick with Jr this time around.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Well, with no more balance patches in the works, seems like the options are either adapt, or abandon clown.

 

[KenMeister]

Ugh....I really hate seeing people just abandon a character all-together this early on. Ever wonder why Brawl was unwatchable? Because it had no diversity, seriously, there was maybe like, what, 1 high level Pit main here in America for example? Mindsets like this are why people look down on the competitive community, because they just throw the towel too early and let the character stagnate. And honestly, dropping the character you found most comforting to play for an easy-to-play top tier like Diddy just means you have no personality whatsoever, and will become a faceless nobody in comparison to other people like Mew2King or Ally. I see potential with the Mecha Koopas honestly. Against certain characters, you can use them to force them into unfavorable positions, and punish them for it. Don't think of them as a camping tool, think of it as a bait-and-punish tool.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I may still use this character in doubles but in singles I have almost abandoned the character.
I may redact this decision later.

 

[sc458]

All the people who say there's still 'hidden potential' in BJr- what do you actually think you'll find that people dedicating hours of playtime into the 3DS and Wii U versions haven't found yet? We know the frame data for his moveset (even if not officially released, people have analysed frames of landing lag, hitbox sizes, etc), and that's not changing any time soon. We know his throws are below average. We know his approach options are limited. We know his OoS options are limited. What do you expect to find?

 

[[mastershake]~~]

I've only played Bowser Jr. a few times and been able to destroy ppl that I have trouble matching up with my main, Shulk. His ariels are ridiculously good and his little robots are great for setups and as projectiles if you pick them up. His recovery is a little lacking, but he seems like a great character. I two stocked a Fox with Bowser Jr. after he beat up my Shulk up pretty good. He had absolutely no answer. I'm not sure why you are having problems with him, but perhaps you need to mix up your gameplay.

 

[LwYz.Ph.]

I've only played Bowser Jr. a few times and been able to destroy ppl that I have trouble matching up with my main, Shulk. His ariels are ridiculously good and his little robots are great for setups and as projectiles if you pick them up. His recovery is a little lacking, but he seems like a great character. I two stocked a Fox with Bowser Jr. after he beat up my Shulk up pretty good. He had absolutely no answer. I'm not sure why you are having problems with him, but perhaps you need to mix up your gameplay.

I've destroyed good players with Bowser Jr. too, but I think it's because not many people play as him and therefore not many people know the matchup (like for example, they try to grab the mecha koopa but fail or try to shield it but I just dash grab). Just wait like till next year when most players will know all the basic gimmicks for all the caracters to see how good he will be.

 

[[mastershake]~~]

I've destroyed good players with Bowser Jr. too, but I think it's because not many people play as him and therefore not many people know the matchup (like for example, they try to grab the mecha koopa but fail or try to shield it but I just dash grab). Just wait like till next year when most players will know all the basic gimmicks for all the characters to see how good he will be.

^^^ This is probably true, however from the small amount that I've played him and played against him, I don't think you can right him off as a bad character. I see a lot of potential and a diverse move set. He is hella fun to play too which doesn't hurt.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

This future patches if it happens can make BJ/Koopalings more viable:

1)You can spawn 2 mecha koopas.

2)Mecha Koopas are easier to pick up by the user. Seriously I z-air right and never grabs them. I Zair bananas and other items just fine but mecha koopas have some akward grab range.

3)Opponents cannot pick up mecha koopas. This would be a huge boon for Koopa mains.

4) Canon comes out faster with less lag. This would be another good buff.

5)Grab becomes faster or has a grab throw that can kill. Please one of these would greatly be appreciated.

6)Down smash having slightly less lag.

7)Front smash actually connecting. So stupid how opponents can just move in closer to avoid it completely.

If some of these happenings. They would be a lot better.

 

[sc458]

2 Mechkoopas is silly. They realised their mistake when Diddy was allowed 2 bananas, and they're immobile. It's not happening, ever.

Numbers 5-7 are most likely. If Jr got a reduction in his grab start-up time, a change in the output arc of his dthrow to allow for easier followup at low-mid %, or a kill throw (likely bthrow), then that would be arguably the best buff they could give him.

Dsmash comes out fairly quickly and is a prime kill move, so the ending lag is to be expected. A small reduction there wouldn't go amiss, but it's not priority. Same goes for fsmash.

BUT none of these are happening, if Sakurai is to be believed. So enough wishful thinking and speculation - what we need to do is stay true to the thread's initial purpose and complain some more!

 

[T-block]

The more I play, the more I think d-smash is actually fine. I convert off reads with d-smash pretty consistently now. A slight nerf to cooldown probably wouldn't even change anything significant... it doesn't make any sense from a design perspective for a move like that to NOT be unsafe on shield/whiff.

Fast grab, or ability to grab/shield out of side-b might be all it takes for this character to be viable, I think.

 

[Hitman JT]

Ugh....I really hate seeing people just abandon a character all-together this early on. Ever wonder why Brawl was unwatchable? Because it had no diversity, seriously, there was maybe like, what, 1 high level Pit main here in America for example? Mindsets like this are why people look down on the competitive community, because they just throw the towel too early and let the character stagnate. And honestly, dropping the character you found most comforting to play for an easy-to-play top tier like Diddy just means you have no personality whatsoever, and will become a faceless nobody in comparison to other people like Mew2King or Ally. I see potential with the Mecha Koopas honestly. Against certain characters, you can use them to force them into unfavorable positions, and punish them for it. Don't think of them as a camping tool, think of it as a bait-and-punish tool.

Brawl was unwatchable because it was campy and slow, also tripping made it risky to do anything except turtle. Lack of diversity happens in literally every single fighting game when the best strats are discovered and it'll happen in this game too.

That said I love Bowser Jr., been using him since the 3DS release but he feels like he wants to be a jack-of-all-trades that has a hard time dealing with those who have a definite specialty. Like he wants to mix zoning and rushdown but can't deal with those who specialize in either. He also has what I think is the worst jab in the game along with a grab that would have been decent if its reach was increased by like 10%. I'll still use him because he's fun, but I don't see him being higher than the dead-center of mid-tier.

 

[KenMeister]

Brawl was unwatchable because it was campy and slow, also tripping made it risky to do anything except turtle. Lack of diversity happens in literally every single fighting game when the best strats are discovered and it'll happen in this game too.

That said I love Bowser Jr., been using him since the 3DS release but he feels like he wants to be a jack-of-all-trades that has a hard time dealing with those who have a definite specialty. Like he wants to mix zoning and rushdown but can't deal with those who specialize in either. He also has what I think is the worst jab in the game along with a grab that would have been decent if its reach was increased by like 10%. I'll still use him because he's fun, but I don't see him being higher than the dead-center of mid-tier.

Yeah, I mean, I don't deny that Jr. isn't bad, because he is, I'm just hoping his playerbase doesn't just die off like alot of characters in Brawl did (again, Pit). Even Melee still has a few active low tiers to this day. Anyhoo, my would-be fixes to Jr. would be:
A) Generally better frame data in every tilt and aerial (start up and ending lag)
B) Followups from throws, and faster grab
C) Cannonball should have less ending lag, and should have shorter charging period (So characters like Sheik don't get a free BF)
D) Inability to pick up Mecha Koopas, and more than one at a time
E) SideB needs to do more shield damage and stun, to keep it from being super easy to shield grab
F) Tilts need more range and knockback

 

[sc458]

Again, let's not let this thread devolve into a 'what-if' scenario where we list every area Jr could improve on (it's a long and far-fetched list). It's already been covered.

If we really want to improve how we play Jr then we have to examine specific areas of his current game that need improving and discuss our options.

For example, the side+b is a good approach option, but it's too telegraphed and can't be held charging for fake-outs like Sonic's can, which makes it vulnerable to punishes. We can jump cancel early, but Jr doesn't have the best landing game either, so he doesn't want to get caught in the air. Same goes for nair out of shield, it just doesn't have enough pushback...

 

[KACHOW!!!]

My mains in smash 4 have been, pretty much from the beginning, Captain falcon and Bowser Jr (wendy specifically). To the original post this thread is about, I'd say that I've put bowser jr on the back burner for a while now, and in the past day or 2 I've begun to pick him back up as a secondary to Cfal (C fal takes a lot of work). Honestly, everyone saying bowser jr is garbage is sort of right, in that he's not roseluma, shiek, diddy or yoshi, and in that reguard most characters are sort of bad when you get right down to it. But just picking a character because they're good is really boring, and only a few people are going to be the best Diddy/roseluma/shiek/whatever, so just be the best Bowser Jr. you can be.

Don't play to win, play to have fun. That doesn't mean you can't be good, it just means you wont ruin the game by turning it into marvel vs capcom 3 (not to just hate on that game, mad respect for mvc players, but it really is just a tier-fest).

I think anyone who says a character can't be good is misunderstanding smash brothers entirely. It's not nearly about the character as much as it's about THE PLAYER!!! The person controlling the character! There are soooo many different levels of good super smash brothers players that one person who's really good could probably beat most of the other people in their city with any character at random. It's all about how much effort and practice you're willing to put into the game.

That being said, you should probably just pick who you feel comfortable with in the game. I used a lot of wario in brawl, and since I wasn't in love with the changes they made to him, I sort of dropped him too quickly. I mained c. Fal in melee, and since he sucked in brawl, I was really happy to see him buffed up a ton in smash 4. Right now I'm playing C fal as a main, with bowser jr as a secondary for my tougher matchups. I picked up bowser Jr because HE IS FUN! He has a lot of cool tricks, and his mindgames are insane, and like all matchups, you just have to understand your spacing/timing in relationship to your opponents, then read what they're going to do, and counter.

The game isn't about being the fastest, or knowing and using all the best combos, or making the most daring plays. Those are all nessesary and usefull components, but at it's core Super Smash Brothers has been and always will be about trying to understand your opponent, to accurately predict and counter what they're going to do. The idea that you can't have competitive and fun play to me is a popular misgnomer in my opinion, because many people blame their loss on "Oh, well, he just won because he's using character x". If you really want to enjoy this game AND get good, ignore the tier list, don't quit your character just because you're feeling down about him/her this day/week/month, and keep practicing! BOWSER JR FOR LYFE!!!!

 

[sc458]

The thing is, while a good player can do well and get wins with a less powerful character (case in point: Ryuga's Ike), you can't rule out the surprise factor in those wins. The players aren't used to seeing a particular character and won't have the same reactions to some of their moveset that they would against others. For example, at around 120% a Ness player will look for a bthrow, so players will make sure to avoid potential grab situations as much as possible.

While they will eventually catch on, this surprise factor can win more games than you think; and with clever mix-ups you will keep them off-balanced.

In the end, it all depends on what level you plan on playing. If you want to enter tournaments, by all means stick with Jr if you like but don't expect easy wins. If you're playing competitively but not necessarily professionally, or even just casually, then there's nothing wrong with going all out with Jr.

However, I suspect the original purpose of this thread was examining Jr in a competitive/professional background.

 

[Donut Steel]

Well, this was depressing to read. Probably should've figured that going into it. All I can say is that you should stick to your main and have faith. If you don't have faith in your main, then move on to something else. Smash's competitive scene is always changing, and tier lists are never set in stone this early into release. Bowser Jr. is a character I enjoy playing. And while he's not my main, I'd never give up on him, just like how I'll never give up on the other characters I enjoy using.

 

[Asa]

He's got options but not OPTIONS..
Snugly fit in mid tier. Honestly feel like mechakoopa is superfluous, not really something that needs to be out all te time to influence the match.. Fsmash and Usmash are better kill options than dsmash IMO, and his jab is pretty good (first hit bein fast, finisher hits nice )

I've played about 800 for glory matches so I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Fingerp@ss]

Yo Asa! Jr. is a struggle but he has the kill moves that can kill early. Big part of the struggle is being able to land those specific kill moves.

 

[Asa]

Fsmash/Usmash aren't that hard to land lol

Dsmash tho..

I do like 2nd hit fair ->dsmash /fsmash

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yes, I'll be giving up when this stupid mentality shows up again and again.

 

[Asa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53bCaqz0zZA

 

[Tonzura Koite]

You guys.

There isn't One True Way to enjoy this game competitively. Some people play to win, and some people play to prove something else. I do believe these are mutually exclusive mindsets, but they need not be opposing forces, necessarily.

Neither the "tier chaser" nor the "special snowflake" is pathetic, and both have roles in advancing the metagame, in terms of the upper limits of competitive play and the laser focus on advancing individual characters, respectively.

However, to the Bjr mains looking to stick with him and defeat an overconfident opponent:

Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance - Sun Tzu

 

[Lord Exor]

You guys.

There isn't One True Way to enjoy this game competitively. Some people play to win, and some people play to prove something else. I do believe these are mutually exclusive mindsets, but they need not be opposing forces, necessarily.

Neither the "tier chaser" nor the "special snowflake" is pathetic, and both have roles in advancing the metagame, in terms of the upper limits of competitive play and the laser focus on advancing individual characters, respectively.

However, to the Bjr mains looking to stick with him and defeat an overconfident opponent:

Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance - Sun Tzu

And then lose pitifully because it's a video game and Bowser Jr. has coded limitations.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Dude, Bowser jr. is all about going all in,you either win or you lost and its not based off of the MU. Bowser Jr. has so many options that it doesn't matter that half are terrible

 

[toadster101]

I don't understand why people get personally offended when their character is considered low tier. As long as you enjoy using it, who cares how bad it is? I mean, King Dedede is my favorite character in the game, but I've accepted that he doesn't have much longevity in the competitive scene. Bowser Jr. is also mediocre compared to some of the other top tier threats. Is it impossible to win with him? No. Is it possible to excel with him? Yes. But at the same time, you have to acknowledge his weaknesses and know your limitations as a player.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

He's not the best, but in the end it doesn't matter how bad or good a character is. If you know the character inside and out and you're dedicated, you'll play just as well as someone who uses Diddy Kong.

From my always-horribly-received opinion is that the lower a character is on the tier list, it just means it takes longer to learn the character to do well. If you have the gall to fight through the disadvantages, and you're willing to maybe get beaten up a few times, you can still make it with any character.

Everyone can do well... Just depends on the dedication.

 

[guedes the brawler]

but you know, jr ended up being the kind of character that frustrates me the most in terms of desing: a mixed bag with tools for aggressive rushdown and defensive camping and zoning; but he's not only not good enough with either, but he falls apart vs those that specialize with those kinds of gameplay.