Anyone contemplating giving up?

[Lord Exor]

Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings seem to have a grim future, and that future portends a destiny of mediocrity. On paper, Bowser Jr. is host to a myriad of gameplay options meant to handle a wide array of match-ups. In practice, many of those seeming options are unreliable, clumsy, and saddled with lag.

Barring any potential balance patches that are competently devised, I fear many of us will throw in the towel and head to greener pastures.

 

[Regulus]

Honestly I've never been more invested in a character. His mediocrity is really just untapped potential I feel, and while he probably won't ever be high tier, I feel like he'll be an unexpected but viable option for tournaments. I feel like I'm just beginning with Bowjow.

 

[ProofByContrapositive]

Lol, MK mains man, what a trip.
Go play Diddy dude, it'll be easier for you.

 

[UltimateRazer]

While I do have a duel main, I'm no where near giving up on Morton. Although, he takes A LOT of practice and you may just need a secondary for certain match ups. He's so awesome though.

 

[Lord Exor]

Lol, MK mains man, what a trip.
Go play Diddy dude, it'll be easier for you.

I want to main a character I'm actually taken with on a personal level, rather than simply play to win. Moreover, there are certain playstyles in this game that are more alluring to me than others, and Meta Knight was a transition from Jigglypuff that I made on day one prior to any popular consensus on whether or not he was the game's potentate. That being said, I'm also a pragmatist--I knew before release that Meta Knight was going to be a dynamic character. I had hoped that Bowser Jr. (Ludwig) would be at least superficially comparable, but his shortcomings are far too salient.

Sakurai's inability to balance is more evident than ever, particularly if his gut instinct is to NERF a character that's already less-than-stellar.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm starting to notice a definite weakness versus campy characters, but still pretty decent versus the rest of the cast.

I would not place him in low tier yet.

 

[Marthmario]

I'm considering... I mean, he just feels clunkier compared to my other mains and I'm having a hard time getting him to work for me.

 

[Lord Exor]

I think his problems could be answered with a few potential options.

1. The ability to have more than one Mecha-Koopa present on the battlefield, allowing Jr. to zone as he was meant to. An opponent can't answer to two of them as easily as he can one; the reason for this being that unlike Diddy's banana, Mecha-Koopas walk toward your enemy, making it a facile task to simply stand idle and press a or dash attack into them at the right time. A banana is stationary, forcing the enemy to come to it, allowing for superior, less fallible set-ups.

or

2. Mecha-Koopas cannot be picked up by enemies. This is self-explanatory as far as utility is concerned.

or

3. Bowser Jr. can hover. He's riding in a clown car for pity's sake, why not have him hover like Peach does on his second jump?

 

[Cherubas]

That's cool. When the rest of you give up and move on it will solidify my spot as the best Bowser Jr in America. I'm well aware that Bj isn't top tier or even top 10. I've known this for weeks. Who I play isn't based on who is potentially the best in the game, it's based on who I like and who I have fun with. Aside from some virtually unnoticeable nerfs Bj hasn't gotten worse since the game came out. Everyone had to have some kind of idea what they were signing up for within the first week of trying to master Bj.

It's true that he's a high risk character. He requires a good eye for patterns and some excellent reads to win some matchups, but I still believe that he has a tool for every situation and Bj will be 50% of my mains until the day they decide they have too many Mario reps in Smash Bros. If a year from now that earns me the title of "that one guy who still actually picks Bowser Jr"... Sweet.

 

[CCCM89]

personally, I enjoy bowser jr. he's fun, he's annoying, and if you time your pokes right, you can play super aggressive with the cart and never let your opponent touch the ground. with the constant patching and balancing this game will be getting, there are never going to be any tiers, at least not any that are reliable after a month or so. so who the **** cares about this tier talk? as long as you can rush them down with a cart and get used to following missed aerials with f-tilts, you'll be fine. I'm not sure what "tier" people are saying characters like Mario or Captain Falcon are supposed to be, but I have found that fighting them are some of the more engaging fights I've had. I can out combo Mario at low percentages, I can rush down more safely than falcon, and with bowser jr.'s powerful aerials, I can easily edge guard.
The only problem I have right now is his disjointed hit-box on the side smash, since I can't hit anyone standing right next to me, not with the last hit at least, but besides that, I can confidently see myself bringing bowser jr. as my secondary/tertiary for competitive.

Please explain to me exactly why bowser jr. looks so bleak in your eyes. I honestly want to know.

 

[Micromajig]

Alright, listen..

Junior's playstyle isn't something to be picked up in a matter of minutes, he's a bundle of chaos wrapped in misdirection. It isn't like playing Mario where your combos are set somewhat in stone, and there's a method to it all. I think, and any of you feel free to correct this ol' scrub, that playing Junior is more about finding a beat, or a flow to play to. I love characters that can excel in mind games, and Junior seems to be one of the best at doing that right now.

My best moments so far in this smash have been with Junior. The scary pro mario that would calmly combo me into oblivion? I won that one through sheer mind screwing, and it felt Good. Or the amazing Sheik I ended up beating after being knocked out once, and dealt 50% damage to before hitting my groovy flow, I think I made them cry or rage, hell maybe both. There's only so many aerial hammers to the face someone can take after all. I don't play Junior because of tier's, I play him because people don't respect my Krusty The Clown Car, and I aim to change that quick and in a hurry.

I don't always play smash, but when I do. I drop exploding clown karts on the heads of others. Stay salty my friends~

 

[ohaiduhg]

Bowser Jr. is that bottom tier character that gets kills off surprises because nobody plays him so no one knows the match ups. That's how I see him anyway.

 

[CCCM89]

My best moments so far in this smash have been with Junior. The scary pro mario that would calmly combo me into oblivion? I won that one through sheer mind screwing, and it felt Good.

I actually had videos of me beating what I think is a fairly good mario as bowser jr. it's quite ammusing to be able to play more aggressive then a mario that knows how to combo from 0 to 100.

 

[CCCM89]

Bowser Jr. is that bottom tier character that gets kills off surprises because nobody plays him so no one knows the match ups. That's how I see him anyway.

then you're a scrub who knows nothing of smash at the competitive level. That's how I see you anyway.

 

[OmegaSorin]

then you're a scrub who knows nothing of smash at the competitive level. That's how I see you anyway.

Firstly, This is a double post, and you posted on top of that double post something exceptionally rude, try not to do that.

Second of all, Bowser Junior is definitely a technical character, and I can see why people think he's not the best of the best, which is why you need to keep your cool, cause I'm sure that more then just that guy thinks that. Anyway, he's not my main at all, but to master he takes about as much practice as Megaman and Link, both of whom are technical characters. When mastered he becomes a decent character. Much like Little Mac, when placed in the hands of an absolute newb who knows nothing on the character, and has no skill, of course he's going to get wrecked by a majority of good players. Again, like Mac though, with enough training and practice he has a lot of untapped potential that can come out if you know how to use him. He has glaring weaknesses, but glaring possibilities as well..

So I say to you guys who want to main Jr, go for it, I'm sure there's someone out there who will make Junior into a beast.

 

[Micromajig]

Bowser Jr. is that bottom tier character that gets kills off surprises because nobody plays him so no one knows the match ups. That's how I see him anyway.

Hmmm, Okay. I'll bite.

To me, in any sort of game the element of surprise and misdirection is a horribly underused tool that people don't respect enough. This may be one of the reasons back in my MvC3 days my Deadpool was such a terror to even the highest ranking players in ranked. There's only so much people can process at a time, overload them with endless BS. and their chi get's all screwed up, they never know what you're doing or going for.

Getting kills off of surprises makes me smile more than kills through studying match ups, and stressing a flow chart. Of course, It may just be me being lazy and not wanting to learn. Why should I though, I have a Clown Go-Kart powered by liquid malevolence, and you don't. I got ten inch spinners on that ride, BALLIN.

 

[ohaiduhg]

then you're a scrub who knows nothing of smash at the competitive level. That's how I see you anyway.

Smash at a competitive level? The game hasn't even been out for 2 weeks. There isn't even a tier list at the moment. It's guessing. Calm down.

 

[OmegaSorin]

Smash at a competitive level? The game hasn't even been out for 2 weeks. There isn't even a tier list at the moment. It's guessing. Calm down.

While I agree he needs to calm down, might as well tell you that there have been competitive smash 4 tourney's, don't forget its been out for almost 2 months on 3DS, and most gameplay carried over into Smash for Wii U. So saying that there is a competitive level to know, even if small.

 

[Jebril]

Been playing Bowser Jr. since the Wii U version came out, and he's complete trash.

Seriously this character isn't going to get any better, there's no "hidden potential" to him...I don't know what you guys are expecting lol. Smash 4 has no high level tech as far as many can tell, the game feels slower than Brawl in most instances, until there's a new patch he's going to suck.

This is why....

1) His camp game is horrible, it's trash. Considering that about 25% of the cast has a reflection ability now the mechs are nearly useless against them. I'm wondering who you guys are playing to believe that you seriously stand a chance against a good Rosalina..cuz they must really suck if you're beating them with Bowser Jr. His cannon is useless against half the cast, just hitting the B button can get you screwed.

2) His grab is trash, moves that aren't safe on other characters shields are safe on his, so many characters in this cast can take even more unsafe approaches on you and be fine, while you still have to put yourself in risk in order to get a read, assuming you read correctly.

3) The biggest reason, HE HAS NO APPROACHES, there is no spacing tool with him, you can't space with this character, you can only react, everything you do is unsafe if shielded. So your best bet is to try to zone with your one mech that can be reflected and hope to read your opponent correctly from the get go.

4) His mobility is garbage even his recovery is actually mediocre once you realize his movements, and for such a big character he gets easily gimped by his forced trajectory. His dash is complete trash compared to most of the cast, which makes it even harder to punish moves. (You guys know what I'm talking about...the ones who actually know how to play him) If he gets hit from Up-B without grabbing the edge or hitting the ground he's pretty much dead at that point cuz he won't get it back until a second or two later. His trajectory for side B is easily blockable and the fact that he doesn't have real super armor on it kills him, even if they gave him Snake's super armor from cypher it would've been better. As it stands even Link's boomerang stops his cart recovery...that's a joke.

5) Lastly, his kill power is nothing spectacular...in fact it's kind of lacking considering the above weaknesses. His Smash can be DI'd out of and that's considering you actually can hit with that perfect sweetspot in it, because that move has like three different hitboxes within itself. His Down Smash is terrible, probably one of the worst D-Smashes I've seen yet, it kills nice but landing it sucks. Even if you read correctly you better hope they're exactly within the hitbox of that D-Smash which is just barely on those cannonballs. His aerials aren't even that great at killing either, they're okay, B-Air is the only one that really sticks out to me, and that one is usually only hit on against nubs.

I know it may seem rash and even I didn't want to believe it but after a playing this game for nearly 2 weeks straight Bowser Jr. I was playing a Rosalina and decided to why not go Peach for the first/second time in this game. Won...pretty handily. It happened again was playing Mike Kirby his Kirby completely wrecked my Bowser Jr. but I switched over to Peach again...I haven't even played this character (Peach) outside of 10 matches tops total so far. I won with her on the second match I believe against Mike Kirby.

It seems obvious that the character to me...is limiting my potential as a player. Which is fine because I don't care that much for this game as a competitive game, to me personally this game is worse than Brawl in almost every sense outside of tripping, once people realize it they're going to be in for a rude awakening.

That being said Bowser Jr. has a TON of potential with a good update, right now his moveset is in complete shambles...outside fo some certain follow ups nothing really synchronizes that well, his mechs have too short a timer on them for instance to be utilized properly, his throws literally lead to nothing but damage and a read, while Mario can combo his U-Smash to his D-Smash (I'm serious this is actually a combo for Mario) Bowser Jr. is lucky if he can combo his D-Air into anything outside of a U-Tilt at less than 10%.

That being said I have a 70% win ratio with Bowser Jr. on For Glory, so as long as your good it doesn't matter, just don't expect this character to be competitively viable until a patch comes. And his kart is overrated, there's nothing amazing about it, if you're spamming it like an idiot on For Glory you're a bad player playing bad people.

 

[CCCM89]

ignore this. accidentally hit new post instead of edit.

 

[CCCM89]

Smash at a competitive level? The game hasn't even been out for 2 weeks. There isn't even a tier list at the moment. It's guessing. Calm down.

who needs a tier list? is a tier list going to tell you who you are good at playing and who you need to practice with, and who you just don't like playing? probably not, and with the updates constantly coming out as the game is updated and new content is added, the meta with inevitably change faster then a tier list could keep track of. get over the idea of tier lists and just focus on playing the characters you have fun with, who do things that enjoy and like to practice doing, that's how you learn to play them better, and how you stop making complete dumbass coments like you made earlier. no offense, but if you don't think he's good, then play someone else. That, or practice with him until you can use him well. there's no use in complaining that he's bad, either practice or play what you think is a "good" character.

a bunch of inacurate information in bulleted list form.

right then:
1. he's not a camp character. his canon is more for punish and offstage harassment of characters with horizontal recovery.

2. the reason moves are safe on his shield is because he's got low traction like Luigi. nowhere near as low, mind, but still lower then others. and if you're only using his grabs out of shield and not mixing things up to get grabs, then you're using the grab wrong. He actually has some decent range on his grab, and if you're not just shielding a hit and hoping to counter-grab, then you'll learn real fast how annoying it is to deal with a bowser jr. that can dodge behind your slow-ass falcon punch and grab you, or punish a short dash attack with a grab.

3. try short/full-hopping a mechakoopa and either picking it up, or running after it. down-b into side-b is an approach. if they dodge the koopa, you hit with the cart, if they jump, you jump into aerial. they shield, you jump short and either go into aerials and back off and try something else. he's got plenty of approach options, you just need to be ready to use them.
As for spacing, again, Mechakoopa and canon. both are great for creating space and zoning. learn to drop a mech now and then and you'll be fine.

4. he's got a good enough recovery to loop the underside of a stage. I honestly don't know who you're playing, but it doesn't sound like bowser jr. you get knocked away, double jump, pop out the cart, hop out of it into your up-b. you can recover low and safe like that. And as long as you know when to preemptively jump from your cart, you won't be killed while recovering. not easily at least.

5. the smashes being DI'd out of only really works with the disjointed hit-box on his forward smash, and only if they're already really, really close to you to begin with. if they're that close, up-smash. as for kill power, all his aerials, save Dair and a sour Nair can kill easy. I've killed around 100% or so with a well places Bair, even lower with a sour Fair when edge guarding. his side smash can kill below 100%, and his up-smash, I believe tends to kill anything at or above 130 at the point of the final hit. that's not too bad. oh, and let's not forget the down smash. if you can land it properly(read predict a roll), then you can launch your opponent very, VERY far. you mention the down-smashes hit-box? yes, the hit-box is low and digs into the ground, but again, it's his down-smash. It's their to punish ledge hogging and rolls. it's got a lot of launch power in it, as long as your target is below you or standing on the ground.

 

[ohaiduhg]

who needs a tier list? is a tier list going to tell you who you are good at playing and who you need to practice with, and who you just don't like playing? probably not, and with the updates constantly coming out as the game is updated and new content is added, the meta with inevitably change faster then a tier list could keep track of. get over the idea of tier lists and just focus on playing the characters you have fun with, who do things that enjoy and like to practice doing, that's how you learn to play them better, and how you stop making complete ******* coments like you made earlier. no offense, but if you don't think he's good, then play someone else. That, or practice with him until you can use him well. there's no use in complaining that he's bad, either practice or play what you think is a "good" character.

Thread is about Bowser Jr. being tournament viable. The tier list is the list made mostly from tournaments on wins and representation. If Bowser Jr. never wins a real tournament or even places high, then he's a Bottom Tier character. I don't know if this will happen or not. I am guessing. If he is Bottom Tier, he will not get attention so no one will know the match up fully. I mean 50 characters in a game is a lot of match ups. This means people who play him will be catching people off guard. That's what I am saying he will be like: the obscure low tier character who gets some wins in through being an unknown match up, but, once you understand how helpless he is, he becomes easily beaten. It's just a hypothesis.

Don't tell me I make bad comments when you said I'm a scrub who knows nothing, especially if you are going to say I don't know competitive play and you are going to dismiss the tier list, essentially dismissing the input of all top level players.

 

[Lord Exor]

Been playing Bowser Jr. since the Wii U version came out, and he's complete trash.

Seriously this character isn't going to get any better, there's no "hidden potential" to him...I don't know what you guys are expecting lol. Smash 4 has no high level tech as far as many can tell, the game feels slower than Brawl in most instances, until there's a new patch he's going to suck.

This is why....

1) His camp game is horrible, it's trash. Considering that about 25% of the cast has a reflection ability now the mechs are nearly useless against them. I'm wondering who you guys are playing to believe that you seriously stand a chance against a good Rosalina..cuz they must really suck if you're beating them with Bowser Jr. His cannon is useless against half the cast, just hitting the B button can get you screwed.

2) His grab is trash, moves that aren't safe on other characters shields are safe on his, so many characters in this cast can take even more unsafe approaches on you and be fine, while you still have to put yourself in risk in order to get a read, assuming you read correctly.

3) The biggest reason, HE HAS NO APPROACHES, there is no spacing tool with him, you can't space with this character, you can only react, everything you do is unsafe if shielded. So your best bet is to try to zone with your one mech that can be reflected and hope to read your opponent correctly from the get go.

4) His mobility is garbage even his recovery is actually mediocre once you realize his movements, and for such a big character he gets easily gimped by his forced trajectory. His dash is complete trash compared to most of the cast, which makes it even harder to punish moves. (You guys know what I'm talking about...the ones who actually know how to play him) If he gets hit from Up-B without grabbing the edge or hitting the ground he's pretty much dead at that point cuz he won't get it back until a second or two later. His trajectory for side B is easily blockable and the fact that he doesn't have real super armor on it kills him, even if they gave him Snake's super armor from cypher it would've been better. As it stands even Link's boomerang stops his cart recovery...that's a joke.

5) Lastly, his kill power is nothing spectacular...in fact it's kind of lacking considering the above weaknesses. His Smash can be DI'd out of and that's considering you actually can hit with that perfect sweetspot in it, because that move has like three different hitboxes within itself. His Down Smash is terrible, probably one of the worst D-Smashes I've seen yet, it kills nice but landing it sucks. Even if you read correctly you better hope they're exactly within the hitbox of that D-Smash which is just barely on those cannonballs. His aerials aren't even that great at killing either, they're okay, B-Air is the only one that really sticks out to me, and that one is usually only hit on against nubs.

I know it may seem rash and even I didn't want to believe it but after a playing this game for nearly 2 weeks straight Bowser Jr. I was playing a Rosalina and decided to why not go Peach for the first/second time in this game. Won...pretty handily. It happened again was playing Mike Kirby his Kirby completely wrecked my Bowser Jr. but I switched over to Peach again...I haven't even played this character (Peach) outside of 10 matches tops total so far. I won with her on the second match I believe against Mike Kirby.

It seems obvious that the character to me...is limiting my potential as a player. Which is fine because I don't care that much for this game as a competitive game, to me personally this game is worse than Brawl in almost every sense outside of tripping, once people realize it they're going to be in for a rude awakening.

That being said Bowser Jr. has a TON of potential with a good update, right now his moveset is in complete shambles...outside fo some certain follow ups nothing really synchronizes that well, his mechs have too short a timer on them for instance to be utilized properly, his throws literally lead to nothing but damage and a read, while Mario can combo his U-Smash to his D-Smash (I'm serious this is actually a combo for Mario) Bowser Jr. is lucky if he can combo his D-Air into anything outside of a U-Tilt at less than 10%.

That being said I have a 70% win ratio with Bowser Jr. on For Glory, so as long as your good it doesn't matter, just don't expect this character to be competitively viable until a patch comes. And his kart is overrated, there's nothing amazing about it, if you're spamming it like an idiot on For Glory you're a bad player playing bad people.

You, my friend, have precisely encapsulated the character's plight. He needs buffs in future patches; that is his only prospect.

 

[T-block]

CCCM89, if you want anyone to actually care about anything you post in these kinds of discussions, the first step is to realize that you should be evaluating a character based on how he stacks up against GOOD players, not people who use Falcon Punch =P

I think Bowser Jr. actually does pretty well in a select few matchups, but is pretty hopeless in a lot of them, unfortunately.

To expand on what Jebril said, our grab is pretty bad, but it's just one of many factors that contributes to the "big-picture problem": Bowser Jr. is reaaaaally bad in shield. I think n-air OoS is the fastest, and it's just... not that great. Not to mention our roll is nothing special either.

I also completely agree with the inability to approach. It's pretty obvious that this character is best played by stuffing approaches.

That puts Bowser Jr. in this awkward position where characters who can apply a lot of pressure (Fox, Sheik, etc.) give him a lot of trouble, but characters who can camp hard (Villager, Link, etc.) also give him a lot of trouble. But I think Bowser Jr. can put in some serious work against those who can do neither (Bowser, Marth, Lucina, to name a few).

 

[SpaceJell0]

CCCM89, if you want anyone to actually care about anything you post in these kinds of discussions, the first step is to realize that you should be evaluating a character based on how he stacks up against GOOD players, not people who use Falcon Punch =P

I think Bowser Jr. actually does pretty well in a select few matchups, but is pretty hopeless in a lot of them, unfortunately.

To expand on what Jebril said, our grab is pretty bad, but it's just one of many factors that contributes to the "big-picture problem": Bowser Jr. is reaaaaally bad in shield. I think n-air OoS is the fastest, and it's just... not that great. Not to mention our roll is nothing special either.

I also completely agree with the inability to approach. It's pretty obvious that this character is best played by stuffing approaches.

That puts Bowser Jr. in this awkward position where characters who can apply a lot of pressure (Fox, Sheik, etc.) give him a lot of trouble, but characters who can camp hard (Villager, Link, etc.) also give him a lot of trouble. But I think Bowser Jr. can put in some serious work against those who can do neither (Bowser, Marth, Lucina, to name a few).

Been playing Bowser Jr. since the Wii U version came out, and he's complete trash.

Seriously this character isn't going to get any better, there's no "hidden potential" to him...I don't know what you guys are expecting lol. Smash 4 has no high level tech as far as many can tell, the game feels slower than Brawl in most instances, until there's a new patch he's going to suck.

This is why....

1) His camp game is horrible, it's trash. Considering that about 25% of the cast has a reflection ability now the mechs are nearly useless against them. I'm wondering who you guys are playing to believe that you seriously stand a chance against a good Rosalina..cuz they must really suck if you're beating them with Bowser Jr. His cannon is useless against half the cast, just hitting the B button can get you screwed.

2) His grab is trash, moves that aren't safe on other characters shields are safe on his, so many characters in this cast can take even more unsafe approaches on you and be fine, while you still have to put yourself in risk in order to get a read, assuming you read correctly.

3) The biggest reason, HE HAS NO APPROACHES, there is no spacing tool with him, you can't space with this character, you can only react, everything you do is unsafe if shielded. So your best bet is to try to zone with your one mech that can be reflected and hope to read your opponent correctly from the get go.

4) His mobility is garbage even his recovery is actually mediocre once you realize his movements, and for such a big character he gets easily gimped by his forced trajectory. His dash is complete trash compared to most of the cast, which makes it even harder to punish moves. (You guys know what I'm talking about...the ones who actually know how to play him) If he gets hit from Up-B without grabbing the edge or hitting the ground he's pretty much dead at that point cuz he won't get it back until a second or two later. His trajectory for side B is easily blockable and the fact that he doesn't have real super armor on it kills him, even if they gave him Snake's super armor from cypher it would've been better. As it stands even Link's boomerang stops his cart recovery...that's a joke.

5) Lastly, his kill power is nothing spectacular...in fact it's kind of lacking considering the above weaknesses. His Smash can be DI'd out of and that's considering you actually can hit with that perfect sweetspot in it, because that move has like three different hitboxes within itself. His Down Smash is terrible, probably one of the worst D-Smashes I've seen yet, it kills nice but landing it sucks. Even if you read correctly you better hope they're exactly within the hitbox of that D-Smash which is just barely on those cannonballs. His aerials aren't even that great at killing either, they're okay, B-Air is the only one that really sticks out to me, and that one is usually only hit on against nubs.

I know it may seem rash and even I didn't want to believe it but after a playing this game for nearly 2 weeks straight Bowser Jr. I was playing a Rosalina and decided to why not go Peach for the first/second time in this game. Won...pretty handily. It happened again was playing Mike Kirby his Kirby completely wrecked my Bowser Jr. but I switched over to Peach again...I haven't even played this character (Peach) outside of 10 matches tops total so far. I won with her on the second match I believe against Mike Kirby.

It seems obvious that the character to me...is limiting my potential as a player. Which is fine because I don't care that much for this game as a competitive game, to me personally this game is worse than Brawl in almost every sense outside of tripping, once people realize it they're going to be in for a rude awakening.

That being said Bowser Jr. has a TON of potential with a good update, right now his moveset is in complete shambles...outside fo some certain follow ups nothing really synchronizes that well, his mechs have too short a timer on them for instance to be utilized properly, his throws literally lead to nothing but damage and a read, while Mario can combo his U-Smash to his D-Smash (I'm serious this is actually a combo for Mario) Bowser Jr. is lucky if he can combo his D-Air into anything outside of a U-Tilt at less than 10%.

That being said I have a 70% win ratio with Bowser Jr. on For Glory, so as long as your good it doesn't matter, just don't expect this character to be competitively viable until a patch comes. And his kart is overrated, there's nothing amazing about it, if you're spamming it like an idiot on For Glory you're a bad player playing bad people.

I agree with you guys, I've been maining Bowser Jr. from the get-go and once the Wii U version came out I noticed how stiff, clunky, and leggy he really is. I'm hoping that in the next balance patch they fix some end lag or make his approach options better. From now on Greninja will be taking his spot. It makes me mad too, the character I wanted since I was a kid just doesn't come through for me and I have to work extra hard to even stand a chance against my friend who I normally had close fights with and just now only won one match and had a couple of close matches. Sakurai please notice us :/

 

[Regulus]

Tbh if you're losing with Bowser Jr. you know what you gotta do.
Git gud

 

[deepseadiva]

That puts Bowser Jr. in this awkward position where characters who can apply a lot of pressure (Fox, Sheik, etc.) give him a lot of trouble, but characters who can camp hard (Villager, Link, etc.) also give him a lot of trouble. But I think Bowser Jr. can put in some serious work against those who can do neither (Bowser, Marth, Lucina, to name a few).

Oh no he's only good against bad characters.

 

[CCCM89]

CCCM89, if you want anyone to actually care about anything you post in these kinds of discussions, the first step is to realize that you should be evaluating a character based on how he stacks up against GOOD players, not people who use Falcon Punch =P

I think Bowser Jr. actually does pretty well in a select few matchups, but is pretty hopeless in a lot of them, unfortunately.

To expand on what Jebril said, our grab is pretty bad, but it's just one of many factors that contributes to the "big-picture problem": Bowser Jr. is reaaaaally bad in shield. I think n-air OoS is the fastest, and it's just... not that great. Not to mention our roll is nothing special either.

I also completely agree with the inability to approach. It's pretty obvious that this character is best played by stuffing approaches.

That puts Bowser Jr. in this awkward position where characters who can apply a lot of pressure (Fox, Sheik, etc.) give him a lot of trouble, but characters who can camp hard (Villager, Link, etc.) also give him a lot of trouble. But I think Bowser Jr. can put in some serious work against those who can do neither (Bowser, Marth, Lucina, to name a few).

first, you'ld be surprised how effective a flacon punch can be in the right situation, but I get it. against good players, I think he's still a viable pick. at least the way I play him, he can come off as a somewhat slower and more flexible sonic. By which I mean, a rushdown character that can easily mix things up if the approach doesn't quite go as planned.

 

[Tater]

Been playing Bowser Jr. since the Wii U version came out, and he's complete trash.

Seriously this character isn't going to get any better, there's no "hidden potential" to him...I don't know what you guys are expecting lol. Smash 4 has no high level tech as far as many can tell, the game feels slower than Brawl in most instances, until there's a new patch he's going to suck.

This is why....

1) His camp game is horrible, it's trash. Considering that about 25% of the cast has a reflection ability now the mechs are nearly useless against them. I'm wondering who you guys are playing to believe that you seriously stand a chance against a good Rosalina..cuz they must really suck if you're beating them with Bowser Jr. His cannon is useless against half the cast, just hitting the B button can get you screwed.

2) His grab is trash, moves that aren't safe on other characters shields are safe on his, so many characters in this cast can take even more unsafe approaches on you and be fine, while you still have to put yourself in risk in order to get a read, assuming you read correctly.

3) The biggest reason, HE HAS NO APPROACHES, there is no spacing tool with him, you can't space with this character, you can only react, everything you do is unsafe if shielded. So your best bet is to try to zone with your one mech that can be reflected and hope to read your opponent correctly from the get go.

4) His mobility is garbage even his recovery is actually mediocre once you realize his movements, and for such a big character he gets easily gimped by his forced trajectory. His dash is complete trash compared to most of the cast, which makes it even harder to punish moves. (You guys know what I'm talking about...the ones who actually know how to play him) If he gets hit from Up-B without grabbing the edge or hitting the ground he's pretty much dead at that point cuz he won't get it back until a second or two later. His trajectory for side B is easily blockable and the fact that he doesn't have real super armor on it kills him, even if they gave him Snake's super armor from cypher it would've been better. As it stands even Link's boomerang stops his cart recovery...that's a joke.

5) Lastly, his kill power is nothing spectacular...in fact it's kind of lacking considering the above weaknesses. His Smash can be DI'd out of and that's considering you actually can hit with that perfect sweetspot in it, because that move has like three different hitboxes within itself. His Down Smash is terrible, probably one of the worst D-Smashes I've seen yet, it kills nice but landing it sucks. Even if you read correctly you better hope they're exactly within the hitbox of that D-Smash which is just barely on those cannonballs. His aerials aren't even that great at killing either, they're okay, B-Air is the only one that really sticks out to me, and that one is usually only hit on against nubs.

I know it may seem rash and even I didn't want to believe it but after a playing this game for nearly 2 weeks straight Bowser Jr. I was playing a Rosalina and decided to why not go Peach for the first/second time in this game. Won...pretty handily. It happened again was playing Mike Kirby his Kirby completely wrecked my Bowser Jr. but I switched over to Peach again...I haven't even played this character (Peach) outside of 10 matches tops total so far. I won with her on the second match I believe against Mike Kirby.

It seems obvious that the character to me...is limiting my potential as a player. Which is fine because I don't care that much for this game as a competitive game, to me personally this game is worse than Brawl in almost every sense outside of tripping, once people realize it they're going to be in for a rude awakening.

That being said Bowser Jr. has a TON of potential with a good update, right now his moveset is in complete shambles...outside fo some certain follow ups nothing really synchronizes that well, his mechs have too short a timer on them for instance to be utilized properly, his throws literally lead to nothing but damage and a read, while Mario can combo his U-Smash to his D-Smash (I'm serious this is actually a combo for Mario) Bowser Jr. is lucky if he can combo his D-Air into anything outside of a U-Tilt at less than 10%.

That being said I have a 70% win ratio with Bowser Jr. on For Glory, so as long as your good it doesn't matter, just don't expect this character to be competitively viable until a patch comes. And his kart is overrated, there's nothing amazing about it, if you're spamming it like an idiot on For Glory you're a bad player playing bad people.

That is a harsh and accurate beatdown on my favorite character in smash 4. Junior's toolkit is AMAZING... for punishing your opponent. For literally every other aspect of the game it's mediocre or just terrible. For instance, his Fsmash doesn't have any hitboxes between Jr and his drills, meaning you can actually DI towards Jr and get out of his Fsmash. It also gets outprioritized by a surprising amount of moves.

But for the record, the part where you say that Jr can't really combo his Dair into anything at less than 10% isn't true. IMO, Junior's strongest point is his low % combo game (and I mean LOW %, like 10 or less) From dair you can do SH fair -> SH fair -> RAR bair with relative ease. If you manage to hit them with your kart(Just hitting them while moving, not the spinout) you can jump -> fair -> (wait 1/4 of a second) FF -> upsmash -> uptilt/upsmash depending on the weight of the character you're fighting against.

Against good players, mechs are only good for two things:

1: an item to throw

2: limiting their options in a tech chase scenario

Unless you get a hard read on your opponent, you can never set up a mech for option #2.

Junior's throws are all pretty bad, although down-throw to fair works if your opponent cracks under pressure and tries to get to center stage ASAP.

Junior's grab is easily punishable, but if you do grab your opponent, assuming you have a mech on the stage you can just pummel them while they mash out and they'll either be hit by the mech or you can follow up with kart(although that's pretty cheesy), or once again RAR bair is a good option if you perform it quickly, or you can just return to neutral game.


TLDR Junior's a really fun character but he's only viable competitively if you're very, VERY good at getting inside your opponent's head and forcing them to do what you want, or your opponent has no idea what to do against him.

I'm sticking with him for the forseeable future, but I have definitely considered giving him up before.

 

[Reila]

Dropping a character because s/he supposedly isn't very good is so damn pathetic.

 

[Lord Exor]

Dropping a character because s/he supposedly isn't very good is so damn pathetic.

What's more pathetic is a masochist. Do you enjoy losing at even skill levels because your character is sub-standard? Brawl Ganondorf to the end of time, huh? That sort of intransigence stymies progress.

 

[Tater]

Dropping a character because s/he supposedly isn't very good is so damn pathetic.

If winning is a factor in your enjoyment of a game(Like it is for most people) dropping a character that doesn't win/causes frustrating losses isn't pathetic at all. Having a purist, narrow-sighted death grip on a character and looking down on those who don't isn't productive.

If you enjoy the game equally win or lose, then you wouldn't drop a character because they aren't very good if you enjoyed playing them the most.

 

[Marthmario]

Dropping a character because s/he supposedly isn't very good is so damn pathetic.

I never really drop characters because they aren't good, though that thought comes to mind, it never really boils down to that. For me, it's just that a character doesn't fit me, and I'm either uninterested in continuing with the character or I feel like I can't utilize that character to his full capability. For example, I mained Marth far before I knew about the tier-list for Melee, and I have to this day, I honestly feel at this point that tier-lists prevent growth in the meta. Like, look at MvC3: all Vergils and Dooms. I feel like, people should decide their mains before looking at the tier list if anything, because it's made it harder for a person to really click with a character. I really feel like people should find the character they love and stick with it. I don't really sync with Yoshi, so I don't play him, simple. I've switched mains a lot of times, and I've had plenty of times to think about this.

So to all you Jr. mains, I may not truly fit in with this crowd, but know that I love the character and I just feel like I can't use him as well as he's supposed to be. So, godspeed to all of you guys.

 

[Micromajig]

I never really drop characters because they aren't good, though that thought comes to mind, it never really boils down to that. For me, it's just that a character doesn't fit me, and I'm either uninterested in continuing with the character or I feel like I can't utilize that character to his full capability. For example, I mained Marth far before I knew about the tier-list for Melee, and I have to this day, I honestly feel at this point that tier-lists prevent growth in the meta. Like, look at MvC3: all Vergils and Dooms. I feel like, people should decide their mains before looking at the tier list if anything, because it's made it harder for a person to really click with a character. I really feel like people should find the character they love and stick with it. I don't really sync with Yoshi, so I don't play him, simple. I've switched mains a lot of times, and I've had plenty of times to think about this.

So to all you Jr. mains, I may not truly fit in with this crowd, but know that I love the character and I just feel like I can't use him as well as he's supposed to be. So, godspeed to all of you guys.

This man gets it. I've never liked the concept of a tier list because all it does is promote a stagnate environment. Everyone always acts like to be successful you HAVE to play the top of the top tiers, the best of the best. I got a name for those folks, and it's not very kind. He's right about the MvC3 scene, it was a lot of Vergils, Dooms, Magnetos, and Weskers. All because someone goggled a little tier list and thought that made all the difference. I played what I liked, and I still do. My squad was always Deadpool, Firebrand, and Arthur. Not because of tiers, but because I'm a long time Ghost N' Goblins fan, and Deadpool is just funny.

I guess we all play for different reasons though, to each their own.

 

[warionumbah2]

Dropping a character because s/he supposedly isn't very good is so damn pathetic.

Quotes like these are why the Smash community looks like a bunch of pansies. Jesus Christ.

 

[Micromajig]

Quotes like these are why the Smash community looks like a bunch of pansies. Jesus Christ.

Not everyone aims to be Evo levels of professional play, I agree with that post, and I feel dropping a character because they're apparently not very good in some peoples eyes makes you more of a pansie than just picking up ermagod top tier hrrrr. Let's not make the smash community one of those elitist one's folks. Seen a lot of fighting game communities in my time, let's not go there.

 

[warionumbah2]

Not everyone aims to be Evo levels of professional play, I agree with that post, and I feel dropping a character because they're apparently not very good in some peoples eyes makes you more of a pansie than just picking up ermagod top tier hrrrr. Let's not make the smash community one of those elitist one's folks. Seen a lot of fighting game communities in my time, let's not go there.

If you're not enjoying the character good or bad then there's no point in playing as him, this goes for casual or competitive. People drop BJ maybe due to his small potential or they don't really click with his playstyle so they drop him for a character that suits their playstyle who has more potential to win or grow(usually top tiers). And people usually have the most fun when winning, your not gonna get up and shout 'yes' when you get bodied.

Playing as a sucky character and hating on people who play good ones makes you look like a tool who won't be taken seriously, this community as well as others is already too far gone we literally got a split community being Melee/PM and Brawl/Sm4sh.

 

[Micromajig]

If you're not enjoying the character good or bad then there's no point in playing as him, this goes for casual or competitive. People drop BJ maybe due to his small potential or they don't really click with his playstyle so they drop him for a character that suits their playstyle who has more potential to win or grow(usually top tiers). And people usually have the most fun when winning, your not gonna get up and shout 'yes' when you get bodied.

Playing as a sucky character and hating on people who play good ones makes you look like a tool who won't be taken seriously, this community as well as others is already too far gone we literally got a split community being Melee/PM and Brawl/Sm4sh.

Okay, with that logic I'll give you that. It does make sense and I misunderstood you from the get go. Although, there's a difference in finding a character that clicks with you that you enjoy playing, and just looking up a tier list and picking the top characters and forcing their playstyle to work. That's my thing on it all.

 

[Marthmario]

I mainly chose to drop the Future King, because he didn't click with me. All his approaches just made me feel limited and I just didn't really feel it.

 

[SoundChow]

I play bowser jr. because he's a ton of fun to play with. His attacks are really unique and his juggling game is on point. That being said, as soon as i see a R.O.B. or ness i switch to fox.