Anti (Wolf) vs M2K (MetaKnight)

[ANTi_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1F_mU57auo

That tornado is a killer.

What can i do? lol

 

[PowaStar]

For tornado all I can say is bait it to where you can shine it, blaster, or FH Bair it. Shine and Blaster stop tornado also from the side. Nice job using short hop air dodge I knew it was good to use vs MK especially or maybe not lol.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Blaster him if he tried to get you with it from afar and if you get caught in it try to mash everything(unless you actually know how to specifically DI out of it, I just mash and it seems to work for me) and if you escape then airdodge or use the reflector.

If he tries to get you with it offstage then I guess try to recover a little lower(not like when you're forced to up-b tho).

You did pretty good tho considering mk is wolf's second, if not worst matchup and it was vs m2k. So my advice is probably useless to you.

 

[Turbo Ether]

If you're in the air, get used to Shining the Tornado on reaction. On the ground, it's better to just shield it, because you have more rewarding punishment options. If you shield the Tornado, you can usually punish with Fsmash if he DIs away, or Upsmash OoS if he doesn't.

Four ways to get past his juggle traps:
1. Simple Airdodge
2. B-Reverse Blaster
3. Canceled SideB to Fast Fall
4. Shine

 

[ArcPoint]

...****, nice Wolf X_X

Yeah pretty much everything they've said, blaster and shine eat through tornado.

ALTHOUGH, towards the beginning stages of a Tornado, I have managed to Dsmash through it and kill MK before, I dunno if it was a fluke, or just the weak part of Tornado, but something to look into.

 

[PowaStar]

...****, nice Wolf X_X

Yeah pretty much everything they've said, blaster and shine eat through tornado.

ALTHOUGH, towards the beginning stages of a Tornado, I have managed to Dsmash through it and kill MK before, I dunno if it was a fluke, or just the weak part of Tornado, but something to look into.

If the tornado was on the ground Wolf's down smash beats it well if its spaced (doesn't have to be perfectly spaced like where Wolf's hand is.)

 

[SecretofMana]

I'm confused as to what the point of all those SHADs towards the beginning was. M2K was nowhere near you, so you could have blaster'd a bit to potentially get in some cheap shots.

Minor complaint though. Awesome Wolf, nice reactions and all.

 

[Gindler]

Nice wolf. This makes me love Wolf vs. MK even more, yay

 

[Ishiey]

Lol I was just told about this like 10 minutes before I came online xD

You definitely want to make good use of usmash OoS, especially against tornado. I'm also confused as to the point of all those SHADs in the beginning, but whatever works, right?

 

[castorpollux]

there were many opportunities where u could have Usmashed OOS to punish him tornadoing behind u. I would also stop SHADing so much. a regular SH does the same thing cept you have more options. Like turbo said, you can use b reversals to make ur landing more unpredictable. It's also better to not airdodge into the ground as well. There were also opportunities where you could have punished his whiffed shuttle loop

 

[JCav]

you did better against m2k than i did...

 

[ArcPoint]

I think he was pretty smart with his SH ADs. He would jump, wait until the peak of his jump, not committing to anything, and once he realized it was safe or that M2k was shielding or something (Idk what he was looking for) he would then airdodge to the ground, so he was still in the "invincible" part of the airdodge when he landed. If you start an airdodge at the very first possible frame after your jump, the invincibility is out by the time you're near the ground, which leaves you punishable. Anti didn't do that, he only left...~3 ish frames to be punished (2 for the lag, and 1 for the first crappy frame of the shield). So I mean, he airdodged into the ground a fair amount, but it was either a risk he was willing to take, or it was relatively safe, especially considering that just falling back down could result in a dash attack.

Or so it seemed to me =)

 

[ANTi_]

^ ArcPoint knows whatsup.

EDIT: Thanks for the tips so far gaiz.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Shine beats nado.

 

[Arrows]

****nn Anti, that was amazing....
THE ONLY THING I COULD POSSIBLY SAY, is stop getting hit by glide attack xD

 

[AtotheZ]

you did better against m2k than i did...

You shielded to much

 

[ArcPoint]

Yeah, shielding is great, but it sucks cuz you can't move worth crap while in it and then you only have like, 6 options from it. D=

Edit: How many do you actually have? Jump, roll left/right, spotdodge, keep holding... uhm...that's 5 so far...oh, and regular release.

 

[rvkevin]

You forgot glide tossing forwards and backwards (situational)...

 

[Vista]

Awesome Wolf, I'd try to incorporate Usmash into your game though (Either DACUS or OoS, both are good for punishes, there are other applications too)

Also simple thing, but turn around and face MK when you Dsmash punish his lag XD You were facing away on a bunch of times and it was too slow to hit with the back end

 

[-Jumpman-]

Laser camp and stop using SHAD.

Edit: Use u-smash OOS

 

[ArcPoint]

AD from a SH is a legit option. Why should he stop using it?

 

[goodkid]

Shad is awesome w/ Wolf. He's a fastfaller & using it speeds him up a bit.

 

[castorpollux]

There are times where SHADing can be useful, but I don't even see what advantage it gave Anti when he was just jumping in front of M2k... If anything it limited his options.

 

[ArcPoint]

Well, if Anti was reading M2k's train of thought right (ex: M2k was waiting for a laggy fair/Shine) then it puts him at an advantage because he's on the ground, with all of his options while M2k's still in his shield. Or maybe he was airdodging through a predicted OoS Fair, which would have made MK suffer the ending lag of fair while Anti's safely on the ground. Obviously if M2k was expecting the airdodge, Anti's not in such a hot situation.

Could M2k have grabbed him when he saw the airdodge? Absolutely, but he didn't. Maybe he was playing it safe, who knows. Could M2k have grabbed it on reaction if Anti started the airdodge a bit lower? Maybe, who knows.

Did it give him an advantage? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Did it limit his options relative to M2k? Sometimes.

 

[castorpollux]

my argument is that in most of those situations, it really was better to do nothing than to airdodge. By doing nothing, u had the option of bairing if he sees m2k running in to grab, or to double jump away. If he does nothing and sees m2k about to tornado, he can quickly shine. By SHADing, you take all those options away.

I'm not theory crafting here... this is seriously based on my own experience fighting mks. I used to SHAD a lot too... a long time ago

 

[ArcPoint]

Theory craft is just options vs options. IE you are in X situations and you have Y number of options, but the opponent counters 2 or 3 of those options with option Z and so you counter option Z with whatever option.

You do this EVERY match, just not consciously. It's not a sin to discuss options, and what options which characters have in whatever situation.

And yes, he did stop himself from double jumping, shining, or bairing when he airdodged. Keep in mind that you should do this at the peak/below the peak of your jump, so by that time you know whether or not MK is about to tornado, that' option's covered.

As for the others, it's all part of the reading game. Is bairing or double jumping the best option? Not in all situations (IE, Mk powershield or just regular shield, or if the MK sees the double jump ahead of time). Is airdodging more advantageous? Again, not in all situations.

I love Smash, no one solution fits all situations, it's different every time =)

 

[castorpollux]

yeah... no one solution fits all situations... thats why its better to have options

 

[ArcPoint]

What good is having 3 options versus 1 option if none of them account for what they're about to do?

 

[Ishiey]

But you don't know what they're about to do. You can only predict based off of what's available and what you've seen them do before.

 

[castorpollux]

3 options is always better than 1

 

[-Jumpman-]

AD from a SH is a legit option. Why should he stop using it?

Predictability and nado.

 

[ArcPoint]

@ JumpmanOkay then, he should stop SHing and then ADing...predictably. Not stop using it entirely. Options shouldn't be not used at all...they should just not be used predictably.

@ JJ My question wasn't which amount of options, my question was what about when it doesn't matter how many options you have if all but one get covered or something similar. IE airdodging stopped him from trying to dash attack or grab, but M2k knew if that he was doing nothing then M2k could have just cut off Anti's options, airdodging leaves options open afterwards - you could buffer anything on the ground afterwards. Doing nothing has its advantages too. And Anti was using a fair amount of both, so props to him.

Idk, I guess it just bugs me when some people just say "Don't use X" or even don't use X as much. when X is a legit option. Especially when this is against M2k, because if you're against a crap (Aka, not top of the metagame lol) player you might be able to say "Better players will punish you for that" but this is kinda against one of the best players in the world... I mean, Anti got punished for it a few times, but it was a risk he more than likely knew he was taking.

 

[castorpollux]

kk... i'm not even gonna argue about this anymore. If anything I'll let you figure it out urself why doing nothing is better than SHADing right in front of an MK.


and sure... anti did this against M2k who is the best player in the world...

but the real question is... is he the best MK vs Wolf player in the world?

Just some food for thought.

 

[ArcPoint]

Of course there's matchup inexperience.

And if I had the choice of landing in front of MK while doing nothing, or landing in front of MK while airdodging...I wouldn't know because both options could work depending on what the MK does.