Analyzing Mewtwo's Changes (Now with a Buffs and Nerfs list)

[LordCQ]

She/he looks way faster! ...Then again, Bowser is like a bloody Sonic 2, so I'm not that shocked.

 

[Chiroz]

Mewtwo most likely won't be a fastfaller, and although he might lack a get out of jail aerial if nair has more than 5 frames of startup, I'd say being heavy is overall an advantage because of rage. Canonically he should be about as heavy as Samus but lighter than Ganondorf, however Smash isn't famous for being very loyal to canon with those values. Balance factors are more important and they choose to apply them there I suppose.

Still, going to lose it if he ends up being lighter than Ness and Villager who are just below Mario's weight. Then again, somewhere around there is probably the optimal weight so that you can avoid a lot of throw/kill setups while still being relatively heavy.

pls no marth weight tho

Also why is less jagged Shadow Ball and less recoil considered a nerf? In a game as campy as Smash 4, not having recoil on a projectile putting yourself into a worse and worse position every time you use it and being able to shoot towards the stage while recovering without getting pushed away from it should be good things. As for not being jagged, you can be more precise with them.

No one knows if Shadow Ball has less recoil. As a rule of thumb try not to assume things that haven't been confirmed yet. We didn't get any video of Mewtwo throwing a Shadow Ball while in the air.

A ball that travels the same distance in the same amount of time BUT has a less jagged path just means a smaller hitbox. I could see how it could mean being more "accurate" but the jagged path was never so jagged that it made it "hard" to be precise. Anyways we also don't know about the speed or travel distance, either could have been buffed.

 

[Trifroze]

No one knows if Shadow Ball has less recoil. As a rule of thumb try not to assume things that haven't been confirmed yet. We didn't get any video of Mewtwo throwing a Shadow Ball while in the air.

A ball that travels the same distance in the same amount of time BUT has a less jagged path just means a smaller hitbox. I could see how it could mean being more "accurate" but the jagged path was never so jagged that it made it "hard" to be precise. Anyways we also don't know about the speed or travel distance, either could have been buffed.

It was less of an assumption and more of a hypothetical question because the claim was made in the first post. I think the speed of shadow ball is somewhat possible to be figured out however since Duck Hunt Duo runs away from it for a while.

 

[Chiroz]

It was less of an assumption and more of a hypothetical question because the claim was made in the first post. I think the speed of shadow ball is somewhat possible to be figured out however since Duck Hunt Duo runs away from it for a while.

The claim isn't made on the first post. I am the OP. Nowhere in the post does it say anything about recoil.

Yes, the speed can be figured out but I was telling you that more jagged vs less jagged isn't a nerf or a buff without taking into account both vertical and horizontal speed. With shadow balls good vertical speed it would seem like being less jagged is more of a nerf than a buff, but we still cannot tell for sure.

 

[Trifroze]

The claim isn't made on the first post. I am the OP. Nowhere in the post does it say anything about recoil.

Yes, the speed can be figured out but I was telling you that more jagged vs less jagged isn't a nerf or a buff without taking into account both vertical and horizontal speed. With shadow balls good vertical speed it would seem like being less jagged is more of a nerf than a buff, but we still cannot tell for sure.

I must've read that somewhere else then. Regardless, shadow ball seems to travel at about 60% the speed of aura sphere. It takes about 9 frames to go from its highest point to its lowest and its overall vertical range is about 1.6-1.7 times its own size. Whether it has max charge or not in the trailer isn't clear because he doesn't charge it for very long, but it looks largely pre-charged so it probably is. Now we know.

 

[Smog Frog]

from a design and balance standpoint, mewtwo's design(from what i've perceived) is that of a grappler with distinct advantages and disadvantages. distinct advantages being greater mobility and a projectile, distinct disadvantages of being a lightweight when most grapplers are heavy characters. sadly, his light weight seems to be part of his design. i mean yeah they could at least buff him to sheik weight, but i think he wont go any higher than that weight wise.

 

[godogod]

we don't know his weight yet. Why bother comparing this to wrestling? Weight has nothing to do with grappling in this game.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

we don't know his weight yet. Why bother comparing this to wrestling? Weight has nothing to do with grappling in this game.

1 week we are going to learn that.

 

[godogod]

I think he will be heavier, but not expecting samus weight to not get my hopes up.

 

[Smog Frog]

we don't know his weight yet. Why bother comparing this to wrestling? Weight has nothing to do with grappling in this game.

what i'm saying is that its a traditional design choice for grapplers to be heavy(think ganon, king dedede, etc), and mewtwo doesnt have this traditional design advantage.

 

[Book Jacket]

what i'm saying is that its a traditional design choice for grapplers to be heavy(think ganon, king dedede, etc), and mewtwo doesnt have this traditional design advantage.

He's got a command grab, yeah, but that's not enough to call him a grappler. I wouldn't call Diddy or Kirby grapplers, or Yoshi, or Lucario. And if you mean because of the speculation that he's got a combo D-throw, Luigi isn't a grappler either. I think very little of his moveset leans toward grappling, especially considering that confusion is also a working reflector.

Shadow Ball and Confusion will lend him well to zoning. Shadow Ball is a projectile, so we should be familiar with how that works. Confusion as a reflector will give him anti-zoning game to compliment his own zoning, making him one of 3 (maybe) other characters that have beefy projectiles and reflectors; the other two being R.O.B., Megaman, Mii Gunner, and custom Fox. It's worth noting, too, that R.O.B. and Megaman both have high-commitment reflectors, and it appears as though Mewtwo's will be quick and safe. Add teleport as a quick escape, and you have a solid zoner. Confusion prevents them from zoning, Shadow Ball forces an approach, and confusion or disable (or perhaps applicable normals) will punish it.

Disable may very well give him a dangerous punish game, and his smashes look quick and powerful too. If Melee and that dair buff are any indication, as well as what looks like a range buff to fair, we will also see some quick normals with decent range popping up as serious assets to Mewtwo.

I think we need to know three things before we can call Mewtwo anything but an all-rounder - 1) how effective will confusion be? If it's got low cooldown, we could be looking at an excellent combo setup. 2) How effective will disable be? If it's useable, then Mewtwo's punish game will be very scary. And 3) How well rounded are his normals? We know he has at least some attacks with good frame data, which means good things for comboing, but does he have any combo breakers to use? Any safe pokes?

In any case, I'm optimistic.

 

[meleebrawler]

He's got a command grab, yeah, but that's not enough to call him a grappler. I wouldn't call Diddy or Kirby grapplers, or Yoshi, or Lucario. And if you mean because of the speculation that he's got a combo D-throw, Luigi isn't a grappler either. I think very little of his moveset leans toward grappling, especially considering that confusion is also a working reflector.

Shadow Ball and Confusion will lend him well to zoning. Shadow Ball is a projectile, so we should be familiar with how that works. Confusion as a reflector will give him anti-zoning game to compliment his own zoning, making him one of 3 (maybe) other characters that have beefy projectiles and reflectors; the other two being R.O.B., Megaman, Mii Gunner, and custom Fox. It's worth noting, too, that R.O.B. and Megaman both have high-commitment reflectors, and it appears as though Mewtwo's will be quick and safe. Add teleport as a quick escape, and you have a solid zoner. Confusion prevents them from zoning, Shadow Ball forces an approach, and confusion or disable (or perhaps applicable normals) will punish it.

Disable may very well give him a dangerous punish game, and his smashes look quick and powerful too. If Melee and that dair buff are any indication, as well as what looks like a range buff to fair, we will also see some quick normals with decent range popping up as serious assets to Mewtwo.

I think we need to know three things before we can call Mewtwo anything but an all-rounder - 1) how effective will confusion be? If it's got low cooldown, we could be looking at an excellent combo setup. 2) How effective will disable be? If it's useable, then Mewtwo's punish game will be very scary. And 3) How well rounded are his normals? We know he has at least some attacks with good frame data, which means good things for comboing, but does he have any combo breakers to use? Any safe pokes?

In any case, I'm optimistic.

Yeah, a projectile (or at least, a good one) isn't something you usually see on a grappler.

The characters in this game closest to what one would call those are the super-heavyweights like Bowser
or Ganondorf. DK has cargo shenanigans, Ganon has flame choke tech-chases, and Bowser has just plain powerful
slams. Charizard has the weakest throw game but the easiest time getting a grab, and Dedede relies more on meaty
normals but still gets almost guaranteed dthrow followups.

As for safe Mewtwo pokes... still waiting on Dtilt.

 

[Trifroze]

There's a good chance fair can be used twice in a shorthop if it has similar frame data to Melee, and dtilt if unchanged will be his quickest option at close range and might combo into fair or nair. Bair will be a bit slower than in Melee but it also has a different animation, hitting as low as Melee bair did but also extending further, being one of the longest range attacks in the game (might be stronger as a consequence too). His uair, fair or tilts that we haven't seen in a video could be changed similarly or uair/utilt/dtilt could be entirely revamped like Samus' nair and Charizard's fair were cause reasons. I certainly hope dtilt stays the same too.

 

[meleebrawler]

Anyone think he'll be able to do a short-hop airdodge with no landing lag because of his slow fall speed?

 

[RadianB]

Anyone think he'll be able to do a short-hop airdodge with no landing lag because of his slow fall speed?

Can't the majority of characters in the game short-hop air dodge with no landing lag if they input a command before they land? I remember seeing a video on it.

 

[Trifroze]

Can't the majority of characters in the game short-hop air dodge with no landing lag if they input a command before they land? I remember seeing a video on it.

Yeah, even Falcon can do it. Mewtwo most likely will be able to even without inputting nair at the end of it, unless his airdodge is longer than normal or something. Now airdodge + fair would be sweet.

 

[Player_9]

Think we'll see Mewtwo be any higher than mid-tier?

 

[Peppa]

I think realistically he will be high low tier to bottom mid tier, somewhere around Robins level. Playable, but you're really going to have to work hard at it to do decently in a tournament setting.

 

[mobilisq]

There's a part of me that hopes his tech animation is the same

 

[Smog Frog]

There's a part of me that hopes his tech animation is the same

you want him to be hot garbage? his tech animations are part of what made him low tier.

 

[mobilisq]

Heh they sure were neat looking though

 

[Trifroze]

I think realistically he will be high low tier to bottom mid tier, somewhere around Robins level. Playable, but you're really going to have to work hard at it to do decently in a tournament setting.

Based on? It's all really going to depend on the things we don't know yet, most importantly whether he has kill throws or not as well as weight, combos and customs.

 

[Chiroz]

Based on? It's all really going to depend on the things we don't know yet, most importantly whether he has kill throws or not as well as weight, combos and customs.

Why would they take away his kill throws but let Ness keep his. That would be really biased, I would seriously hunt down Sakurai if that happens.

Mewtwo is the most powerful psychic, he needs good throws. Do not dissapoint me Sakurai.

 

[Smog Frog]

mewtwo probably has similar combo ability. dthrow sends them at an where it combos into dash attack most likely, which if it truly ends quicker like it seemed to, could probably combo into fair. also the improved confusion ought to give him some nifty stuff. but his combo ability is dependent on dtilt still being a good starter, if it is then its great if it isnt then its ok. but either way mewtwo has big damage on his moves.

 

[Peppa]

Based on? It's all really going to depend on the things we don't know yet, most importantly whether he has kill throws or not as well as weight, combos and customs.

Based on my opinion, everything is speculative about Mewtwo right now anyway. I'm basing it on his new size, the way his moves we know of work, as well as general balance of how characters are designed in Smash Four.
A strong projectile generally means a slower punish, and Mewtwo is not known as a speedy character. Think of the higher tiers, they may all not be rush down but they have tools to punish OoS fast. I'm going to speculate that he will feel a lot like D3 when it comes to weight and floatiness, and that combination bodes ill for a character to be higher tier. Lucario is high but he has extreme KO options, as well as decent range, but he's arguably bad until mid percents.

 

[Smog Frog]

d3 actually falls the second fastest after fox, and mewtwo actually had the tied second highest air speed in melee with yoshi. and just from the video, his dash speed has been normalized with the other "levitating" characters(charizard, palutena, metaknight, who all have a top 10 run speed). his grab is enough to make you respect his shield because he gets alot of reward off of his throws.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

d3 actually falls the second fastest after fox, and mewtwo actually had the tied second highest air speed in melee with yoshi. and just from the video, his dash speed has been normalized with the other "levitating" characters(charizard, palutena, metaknight, who all have a top 10 run speed). his grab is enough to make you respect his shield because he gets alot of reward off of his throws.

Wait, I thought Jigglypuff had the highest air speed

 

[Smog Frog]

Wait, I thought Jigglypuff had the highest air speed

no i said he was tied second highest air speed with yoshi

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ooos, misread it then

no i said he was tied second highest air speed with yoshi

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

He can act out of Up-B now. Seems like they've just taken the changes from Project M

Where are you seeing this? It's not shown with this effect in the reveal trailer.

Edit: nvm, saw next post.

Yea, I'd be surprised too if he has another green palette, but this isn't his Melee green palette either (I mean not like the orange one which is pretty spot on Melee).

We now know 5 of the 8 Mewtwo colors (possible 6 if this Dark Blueish Purple color isn't his blue color) and it's an extremely safe bet that he will have a yellow palette as everyone in the game has a yellow palette. The only thing he is missing is a "light" palette, which about 80% of the cast has. I am betting he will have a sort of light grayish palette which will be his "light" palette.

So in conclusion if the dark blueish purple palette is his new blue palette then there's only space for 1 last color scheme in my opinion.

Captain Falcon would like a word with you.
Pee-Gold doesn't really count.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Think we'll see Mewtwo be any higher than mid-tier?

Lets just say

The sonic thread this that and might be a even match up

 

[Trifroze]

Why would they take away his kill throws but let Ness keep his. That would be really biased, I would seriously hunt down Sakurai if that happens.

Mewtwo is the most powerful psychic, he needs good throws. Do not dissapoint me Sakurai.

I agree it would make no sense if his uthrow and possibly bthrow weren't kill throws. The whole telekinesis is his main thing.

Based on my opinion, everything is speculative about Mewtwo right now anyway. I'm basing it on his new size, the way his moves we know of work, as well as general balance of how characters are designed in Smash Four.
A strong projectile generally means a slower punish, and Mewtwo is not known as a speedy character. Think of the higher tiers, they may all not be rush down but they have tools to punish OoS fast. I'm going to speculate that he will feel a lot like D3 when it comes to weight and floatiness, and that combination bodes ill for a character to be higher tier. Lucario is high but he has extreme KO options, as well as decent range, but he's arguably bad until mid percents.

Judging by the trailer Mewtwo is confirmed to dash considerably faster than before though, and his aerial speed was still looking fast as well based on the clip where he uses confusion on Charizard. It all really depends whether Mewtwo has the kill throw that he should have or not and how strong it is, as it might determine whether he's an all-rounder mid tier or an actual threat whose shield you don't want to attack to begin with. A character generally doesn't need more than a few useful moves, some mobility (Mewtwo's should now be more than sufficient) and a reliable kill setup to be considered high tier.

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont see how mewtwo wont keep his kill throws, its an integral part of his design. also i hope they fix the knockback on fsmash it was way too weak.

 

[Chiroz]

Where are you seeing this? It's not shown with this effect in the reveal trailer.

Edit: nvm, saw next post.




Captain Falcon would like a word with you.
Pee-Gold doesn't really count.

It does count though. That's his yellow costume. Marth's is also gold. There's only like 2 chars without one.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Oh, the hype I've been feelin' lately. Mewtwo's gonna be joining Shulk, Villager, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dark Pit, Mega Man, and Pac-Man as one of my mains (though I do play everyone) - And it looks like a combination Project M/Melee set with Sm4sh physics? All my friends are going to feel the pain and suffering I've caused them in Melee and Project: M....in GLORIUS HD!

Thank Celestia I decided to buy a Wii U with my birthday money last year, I get him a full 13 days before so many others. You know what that means?



Oh yes. Your tears. They are delicious.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Oh, the hype I've been feelin' lately. Mewtwo's gonna be joining Shulk, Villager, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dark Pit, Mega Man, and Pac-Man as one of my mains (though I do play everyone) - And it looks like a combination Project M/Melee set with Sm4sh physics? All my friends are going to feel the pain and suffering I've caused them in Melee and Project: M....in GLORIUS HD!

Thank Celestia I decided to buy a Wii U with my birthday money last year, I get him a full 13 days before so many others. You know what that means?



Oh yes. Your tears. They are delicious.

Yep but one problem

Many mewtwo forum people here myself included also get mewtwo 13 days early

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Yep but one problem

Many mewtwo forum people here myself included also get mewtwo 13 days early

Yes


But those who don't, like several people I know, have delicious tears

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Yes


But those who don't, like several people I know, have delicious tears

Yep

And i will be drinking the tears of the jealous players

Due to paying $0.00 and we get him a week and 6 days early

 

[Smog Frog]

Some frame data judging by the trailer (the frame hitbox comes out):

All of these can be off by 1 in either direction because the video runs at 30fps. If Melee frame data is within range there's reason to assume it's unchanged.

Jab: 7-9 (previously 8, probably unchanged)
Nair: 7-9, judging by effects likely 7 (previously 5, slower)
Dash attack: 10-12 (previously 10, probably unchanged)
Dair: 15-17 (previously 18, faster)
Bair: 15-17 (previously 12, slower)
Dsmash: 20-22 (previously 20, probably unchanged)
Usmash: 9-11 (previously 9, probably unchanged)
Confusion: 11-13 (previously 12, probably unchanged)
Disable: 15-17 (previously 15, probably unchanged)
Shadow ball release: likely 9-15 (hard to know when it's actually out, previously 17)
Teleport: 7-9 frame startup, about 20 frames endlag (previously 7 startup, 15 endlag)
Jump startup: 3-5 (previously 5, probably unchanged but at least not more and nobody has 3)

Anyway nair and bair are slower, teleport has a bit more landing lag, shadow ball comes out potentially a lot faster, dair is faster and aside from that no noticeable changes in terms of frame data so far.

Also usmash seems really strong as none of the characters were at or above 100% judging by the lack of smoke (Mewtwo included) when it killed Little Mac and Dr Mario on Omega Coliseum. It also seems to have crazy jump cancel range, especially since the usmash in the trailer didn't look jump canceled. This might also be contributed to him having a faster running speed.

There's also a realistic chance dthrow is a legitimate combo and most likely at least a setup throw; usmash hits Little Mac about 12 frames after his hitstun ends (falling animation begins).

I wish I could measure dash and aerial speed based on the trailer but the distances he covers aren't enough to reliably do that.

E: Well I did, Little Mac (ranked 3rd in running speed not counting Monado Arts) runs one square on Coliseum in 6 frames. Lucario (ranked 33rd) runs one in 11 frames. Mewtwo ran one in 8 frames. That's about the same as Marth. It'll be interesting to see how well this holds up, and I hope his aerial speed doesn't suffer because of this. If not, he's gonna be pretty mobile.

what's confusion's endlag? did you get it?

 

[meleebrawler]

Yep

And i will be drinking the tears of the jealous players

Due to paying $0.00 and we get him a week and 6 days early

Actually we paid 100.00$ (buying both games, even more if you count system costs).