Analyzing Mewtwo's Changes (Now with a Buffs and Nerfs list)

[Sonsa]

Nope, after Confusion, ANY character could simply Bair Mewtwo, even if the move connected >_>

Huh... weird. Maybe I just fought people who didnt know that or am remembering PM? Anyway, hooray for the buff!

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Huh... weird. Maybe I just fought people who didnt know that or am remembering PM? Anyway, hooray for the buff!

Yeah, pretty sure that was something they fixed in PM

 

[Chiroz]

Yea Confusion and Disable were both completely useless in Melee because of the fact that landing them meant Mewtwo getting punished instead of the opponent. At least from what we can see in the trailer it seems like that was fixed and Mewtwo can now follow up both Disable and Confusion but honestly we have no idea yet.

For all we know Greninja/Charizard could have back aired or Ganondorf could have mashed buttons in order to get out of the dizzy state faster.

At least in this game, even if Confusion is still laggy as Melee, there are still some characters which will have 0 responses to it. Like Shulk, who'se back-air comes out so slow that it would be impossible for him to hit Mewtwo.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yea Confusion and Disable were both completely useless in Melee because of the fact that landing them meant Mewtwo getting punished instead of the opponent. At least from what we can see in the trailer it seems like that was fixed and Mewtwo can now follow up both Disable and Confusion but honestly we have no idea yet.

For all we know Greninja/Charizard could have back aired or Ganondorf could have mashed buttons in order to get out of the dizzy state faster.

At least in this game, even if Confusion is still laggy as Melee, there are still some characters which will have 0 responses to it. Like Shulk, who'se back-air comes out so slow that it would be impossible for him to hit Mewtwo.

It all depends on whether you can attack when in tumble animation

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

This should come in handy.

EDIT: i found a better video to use for compairson.


Dash attack has better knock back

Melees mewtwo coulden't even knockback a jigglypuff.


Oh and one more thing

You guys forgot something.

Did you guys remember that characters start to steam after high damage.

Luigi was not steaming and he got flung really high in the trailer.

So up throw still had high ko potential

So we can determine of knockback strength by how much they were steaming.

 

[Spirst]

One thing to keep in mind when trying to analyze knockback from a throw in the video is that the uthrow could be similar to Ness' fthrow which has a high base knockback but doesn't have great knockback growth and thus, doesnt' scale well. Or it could potentially be like Ness' bthrow which has a meh base knockback but scales very well making it a kill throw at higher percents. Hopefully, it keeps the high ko potential but we can't be too sure as of yet.

 

[Kabutops]

I'm praying to god that Mewtwo keeps his up tilt & uair.

 

[FooltheFlames]

LOLZ so many people are mistaking his airdoge into nair for him being able to act out of his B-up now xD
it would be cool if he could, but we dont know for sure yet if he can or not.

And as for anyone saying his Down Smash sucks becuz it still only hits one side-
how do we know there isnt an invisible/hidden hitbox behind him as well now with this move?
plenty of moves have hidden sour hitboxes in this game, plenty of moves actually haver longer reach than what the animation shows.

It would be odd to not have the dark sphere animation on both sides for his down smash if it does hit on both sides-
but just becuz it doesnt, doesnt mean we should assume things like there's no hitbox behind him right?

Well just have to wait untill we can test him for ourselves... it's going to be looong 11 days till then!!

 

[kirby3021]

LOLZ so many people are mistaking his airdoge into nair for him being able to act out of his B-up now xD
it would be cool if he could, but we dont know for sure yet if he can or not.

And as for anyone saying his Down Smash sucks becuz it still only hits one side-
how do we know there isnt an invisible/hidden hitbox behind him as well now with this move?
plenty of moves have hidden sour hitboxes in this game, plenty of moves actually haver longer reach than what the animation shows.

It would be odd to not have the dark sphere animation on both sides for his down smash if it does hit on both sides-
but just becuz it doesnt, doesnt mean we should assume things like there's no hitbox behind him right?

Well just have to wait untill we can test him for ourselves... it's going to be looong 11 days till then!!

Yep, I think we've found out almost everything we can from the trailer so far (though there still may be some nuggets to be found). It doesn't really matter to me if his Down Smash hits both sides. There's something very satisfying about pointing at something and having it explode. That said, I definitely won't complain if it does hit behind him...

 

[BZero]

down air is much faster

yeah it looks MUCH faster

 

[meleebrawler]

LOLZ so many people are mistaking his airdoge into nair for him being able to act out of his B-up now xD
it would be cool if he could, but we dont know for sure yet if he can or not.

And as for anyone saying his Down Smash sucks becuz it still only hits one side-
how do we know there isnt an invisible/hidden hitbox behind him as well now with this move?
plenty of moves have hidden sour hitboxes in this game, plenty of moves actually haver longer reach than what the animation shows.

It would be odd to not have the dark sphere animation on both sides for his down smash if it does hit on both sides-
but just becuz it doesnt, doesnt mean we should assume things like there's no hitbox behind him right?

Well just have to wait untill we can test him for ourselves... it's going to be looong 11 days till then!!

If it does hit "behind" Mewtwo it'll probably be like a case where two-hit Dsmashes actually hit twice; you were standing too
close. But would a Mewtwo pointing at and simultaneously blasting both sides look good?

Besides, we have Usmash for sloppy rolling. Or Nair. Or maybe Confusion depending on it's range and active frames.
Or we could just roll away ourselves since ours is better than 90% of the cast. Or better yet, his uber-roll: Teleport.

 

[godogod]

I would actually be more surprised if his down smash hits both sides then single. Lets face it -- every single character has at least one move that sucks/below average compared to most characters.

It could compensate by being more powerful than the standard smash.

 

[Chiroz]

His Down-Smash will be able to hit players hanging on the edge which means that grabbing the edge twice is not an option for an opponent.

 

[---]

His Down-Smash will be able to hit players hanging on the edge which means that grabbing the edge twice is not an option for an opponent.

"thinks back to a Wario main beating me in For Glory"

Rolls will definitely be a problem for Mewtwo bar maybe Short Hop N-Air, but Mewtwo's edge guarding is looking very good between B-Air, U-Air, Throws, Teleport, and Confusion, and hopefully a somewhat disjointed D-Smash hitbox.

F-Air having better range and having a decent, though probably nerfed, kill % would only be the icing on the cake. D-Air IDK.

 

[S_B]

He can act out of Up-B now. Seems like they've just taken the changes from Project M

Nice!

Next, they need to do Bowser...

 

[meleebrawler]

I know its pretty preliminary.. But taking account of all the buffs, what favorable character match ups do you guys think he would he have?

His Nair will probably cause fits in characters who lack long-ranged or disjointed aerials.

Also @ S_B , there is no proof as of yet if he can act out of Teleport.
The part with Nair in the trailer was an airdodge, and whenever he used Teleport he hugged the ground.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm not too worried about Confusion and Disable. Even if they are still bad, there's always custom moves to look forward to. Chances are, they'll get at least one of the custom variations right.

And even if they don't, then hey, at least we've got a real reflector this time.

 

[WingedKnight]

I'm not too worried about Confusion and Disable. Even if they are still bad, there's always custom moves to look forward to. Chances are, they'll get at least one of the custom variations right.

And even if they don't, then hey, at least we've got a real reflector this time.

Good point. Regardless of the properties for these moves and how they may have been improved, Confusion is at least functional now. Other stuff is gravy, but I'd still like some gravy...

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

By the way i need to check on one.

Back from melee the reflect the projectile with confusion diden't work the ahot penetrated.

And now it does in smash 4 is nice but one buff i need to know, but this can't be determined till the 15th.

I hope its easier to reflect in the first place i couldn't do it it melee (right on top of the flash for short and does nothing.)

 

[MassAttack434]

I believe that his U-Smash kills, I was going through the video to look to see if maybe it was just manipulated, but there isn't any smoke on either Dr. Mario or Little Mac in this frame, so that means it kills at less that 100%

Edit
Picture apparently didn't come out so I'm just gonna leave a link
http://imgur.com/EuyvE6c

 

[WingedKnight]

I believe that his U-Smash kills, I was going through the video to look to see if maybe it was just manipulated, but there isn't any smoke on either Dr. Mario or Little Mac in this frame, so that means it kills at less that 100%

Edit
Picture apparently didn't come out so I'm just gonna leave a link
http://imgur.com/EuyvE6c

That's a really good find, and a big boon for Mewtwo!

 

[G-Guy]

confusion also seems to airstall now.

I believe that in melee, using confusion mid air resulted in mewtwo dropping like a stone...

 

[Chiroz]

confusion also seems to airstall now.

I believe that in melee, using confusion mid air resulted in mewtwo dropping like a stone...

Actually it made him rise slightly, like Mario's Cape or Marth's Dancing Blade, both of which also lost that property and now only stall shortly the first time it's used mid-air which seems to be what Mewtwo's Confusion does.

 

[Deleted member]

I believe that his U-Smash kills, I was going through the video to look to see if maybe it was just manipulated, but there isn't any smoke on either Dr. Mario or Little Mac in this frame, so that means it kills at less that 100%

Edit
Picture apparently didn't come out so I'm just gonna leave a link
http://imgur.com/EuyvE6c

I noticed that too, and besides that the hitstun wore off from Dthrow so they could've jumped (but Usmash could be a great airdoge punish read from Dthrow), Mewtwo either has a Sonic/Fox Usmash, or Damage Ratio was turned up for the trailer so the smoke wouldn't get in the way of the cinematic.

 

[Whia]

I noticed that too, and besides that the hitstun wore off from Dthrow so they could've jumped (but Usmash could be a great airdoge punish read from Dthrow), Mewtwo either has a Sonic/Fox Usmash, or Damage Ratio was turned up for the trailer so the smoke wouldn't get in the way of the cinematic.

Honestly this is what I suspect. 'Cause that u-smash didn't just kill them, but it sent them absolutely rocketing off the top. I hope that isn't the case, obviously, but I'm certainly expecting it to be.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I believe that his U-Smash kills, I was going through the video to look to see if maybe it was just manipulated, but there isn't any smoke on either Dr. Mario or Little Mac in this frame, so that means it kills at less that 100%

Edit
Picture apparently didn't come out so I'm just gonna leave a link
http://imgur.com/EuyvE6c

Yea i noticed that.

And like i said earlier when mewtwo did up throw on luigi he was not steaming either, so luigi is easily less than 100% damage as well.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Wow guys, good research.
Hopefully Mewtwo's Up Smash isn't as ripped as it seems to be...o.o Golly...

 

[SmashBroski]

Anyone feel its move pack more of a wallop compared to Melee?

Bair and Dair in particular sound much more satisfying and powerful compared to Melee.

 

[Comet7]

Like Shulk, who'se back-air comes out so slow that it would be impossible for him to hit Mewtwo.

wow, i guess confusion to grab will be a thing if he doesn't have too much endlag (it really shouldn't, but sakurai). i feel really dirty inside now.

 

[Trifroze]

Some frame data judging by the trailer (the frame hitbox comes out):

All of these can be off by 1 in either direction because the video runs at 30fps. If Melee frame data is within range there's reason to assume it's unchanged.

Jab: 7-9 (previously 8, probably unchanged)
Nair: 7-9, judging by effects likely 7 (previously 5, slower)
Dash attack: 10-12 (previously 10, probably unchanged)
Dair: 15-17 (previously 18, faster)
Bair: 15-17 (previously 12, slower)
Dsmash: 20-22 (previously 20, probably unchanged)
Usmash: 9-11 (previously 9, probably unchanged)
Confusion: 11-13 (previously 12, probably unchanged)
Disable: 15-17 (previously 15, probably unchanged)
Shadow ball release: likely 9-15 (hard to know when it's actually out, previously 17)
Teleport: 7-9 frame startup, about 20 frames endlag (previously 7 startup, 15 endlag)
Jump startup: 3-5 (previously 5, probably unchanged but at least not more and nobody has 3)

Anyway nair and bair are slower, teleport has a bit more landing lag, shadow ball comes out potentially a lot faster, dair is faster and aside from that no noticeable changes in terms of frame data so far.

Also usmash seems really strong as none of the characters were at or above 100% judging by the lack of smoke (Mewtwo included) when it killed Little Mac and Dr Mario on Omega Coliseum. It also seems to have crazy jump cancel range, especially since the usmash in the trailer didn't look jump canceled. This might also be contributed to him having a faster running speed.

There's also a realistic chance dthrow is a legitimate combo and most likely at least a setup throw; usmash hits Little Mac about 12 frames after his hitstun ends (falling animation begins).

I wish I could measure dash and aerial speed based on the trailer but the distances he covers aren't enough to reliably do that.

E: Well I did, Little Mac (ranked 3rd in running speed not counting Monado Arts) runs one square on Coliseum in 6 frames. Lucario (ranked 33rd) runs one in 11 frames. Mewtwo ran one in 8 frames. That's about the same as Marth. It'll be interesting to see how well this holds up, and I hope his aerial speed doesn't suffer because of this. If not, he's gonna be pretty mobile.

 

[Red-Ruby]

From what I've read mewtwo is more promising than in Melee, and I love that!
Is anyone planning on making an entire comparison when Mewtwo comes out?

 

[itsaxelol]

wow, i guess confusion to grab will be a thing if he doesn't have too much endlag (it really shouldn't, but sakurai). i feel really dirty inside now.

dont get ahead of yourself. we dont know it if will send them to tumble for tech chase or if they can act out of it quick with a fair or nair

 

[itsaxelol]

Some frame data judging by the trailer (the frame hitbox comes out):

All of these can be off by 1 in either direction because the video runs at 30fps. If Melee frame data is within range there's reason to assume it's unchanged.

Jab: 7-9 (previously 8, probably unchanged)
Nair: 7-9, judging by effects likely 7 (previously 5, slower)
Dash attack: 10-12 (previously 10, probably unchanged)
Dair: 15-17 (previously 18, faster)
Bair: 15-17 (previously 12, slower)
Dsmash: 20-22 (previously 20, probably unchanged)
Usmash: 9-11 (previously 9, probably unchanged)
Confusion: 11-13 (previously 12, probably unchanged)
Disable: 15-17 (previously 15, probably unchanged)
Shadow ball release: likely 9-15 (hard to know when it's actually out, previously 17)
Teleport: 7-9 frame startup, about 20 frames endlag (previously 7 startup, 15 endlag)
Jump startup: 3-5 (previously 5, probably unchanged but at least not more and nobody has 3)

Anyway nair and bair are slower, teleport has a bit more landing lag, shadow ball comes out potentially a lot faster, dair is faster and aside from that no noticeable changes in terms of frame data so far.

Also usmash seems really strong as none of the characters were at or above 100% judging by the lack of smoke (Mewtwo included) when it killed Little Mac and Dr Mario on Omega Coliseum. It also seems to have crazy jump cancel range, especially since the usmash in the trailer didn't look jump canceled. This might also be contributed to him having a faster running speed.

There's also a realistic chance dthrow is a legitimate combo and most likely at least a setup throw; usmash hits Little Mac about 12 frames after his hitstun ends (falling animation begins).

I wish I could measure dash and aerial speed based on the trailer but the distances he covers aren't enough to reliably do that.

E: Well I did, Little Mac (ranked 3rd in running speed not counting Monado Arts) runs one square on Coliseum in 6 frames. Lucario (ranked 33rd) runs one in 11 frames. Mewtwo ran one in 8 frames. That's about the same as Marth. It'll be interesting to see how well this holds up, and I hope his aerial speed doesn't suffer because of this. If not, he's gonna be pretty mobile.

if this is real its worrying to see so much nerfed frame data. frame 7 nair is good but endlang wont be

 

[T-Donor66]

From what I've read mewtwo is more promising than in Melee, and I love that!
Is anyone planning on making an entire comparison when Mewtwo comes out?

I´m pretty sure someone will a list either here or on the ssbwiki. Btw welcome to Smashboards, we hope you like it here!

 

[Red-Ruby]

I´m pretty sure someone will a list either here or on the ssbwiki. Btw welcome to Smashboards, we hope you like it here!

Okay nice!
I never got to play melee, but I love mewtwo. It doesn't matter how much I suck as him, I want to play him until I main him.
And thank you! I hope I will have a nice experience on here

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

From what I've read mewtwo is more promising than in Melee, and I love that!
Is anyone planning on making an entire comparison when Mewtwo comes out?

Next to garaenteed someone does it.

Definatly going to check on customs for mewtwo, im praying you don't have to find mewtwos (but good chance they will be there already do to dlc.)

 

[godogod]

the idea of Mewtwo having the sane running speed as marth, sounds amazing. Now if only he can be as heavy as Samus at least..

 

[Valnoir]

I personally like that they kept his melee move set as it will feel like home. I also don't care what tier he's in He will always be my favorite character, and I will constantly play him. I don't know where he'll sit with my best characters competitively but I will use him wherever viable.

 

[Peppa]

the idea of Mewtwo having the sane running speed as marth, sounds amazing. Now if only he can be as heavy as Samus at least..

I'm not 100% sure if I want him to be as big as he his with too much weight, I'm afraid of a DeDeDe-like juggling scenario on if that's the case...

 

[Trifroze]

Mewtwo most likely won't be a fastfaller, and although he might lack a get out of jail aerial if nair has more than 5 frames of startup, I'd say being heavy is overall an advantage because of rage. Canonically he should be about as heavy as Samus but lighter than Ganondorf, however Smash isn't famous for being very loyal to canon with those values. Balance factors are more important and they choose to apply them there I suppose.

Still, going to lose it if he ends up being lighter than Ness and Villager who are just below Mario's weight. Then again, somewhere around there is probably the optimal weight so that you can avoid a lot of throw/kill setups while still being relatively heavy.

pls no marth weight tho

Also why is less jagged Shadow Ball and less recoil considered a nerf? In a game as campy as Smash 4, not having recoil on a projectile putting yourself into a worse and worse position every time you use it and being able to shoot towards the stage while recovering without getting pushed away from it should be good things. As for not being jagged, you can be more precise with them.