An essay on why and how Nintendo/Sora needs to embrace advanced techniques

[smashbroskilla]

Congratulations, now the competitive community is divided by the use these rules.

How so? There have been plenty of competetive games that have different rulesets at different tournaments. Why does the option of wavedashing and L cancelling scare the sh*t out of people? I'm going to a smash 4 Wii U tourney in a couple weeks at an arcade. I would be perfectly fine if they were or weren't using these mechanics. Either way I could still go with either playstyle. Why is giving the consumer more options to play a bad thing?

Lets say hypothetically there was an option for L cancelling and wavedashing to be turned on or off online/offline and you had the option to filter these options when looking for a game online. What would you care if you ever played me online or not? For all I know I could play every match in for glory and you only select for fun when you play online. We still would never see each other so it's not like the competetive community is being divided. There would just be different paths for how those players chose to be competetive.

They're not going to turn Smash into something it isn't supposed to be to appeal to a minority that wasn't supposed to like this in the first place.

Sakurai can say he just wanted a party game all day but the fact of the matter is is that there are hundreds of thousamds of people who want things a certain way. At the end of the day it's not about what he wants but rather the consumer that pays his bills. You think the casuals would care if they implemented wave dashing and L cancelling? Hello no they wouldn't. Most probably would never even hear the term used at all even once, or these boards, or petetitions, or pics of the day etc. They would go on living their partry game lives without a single sh*t to be given about wavedashing and L cancelling. And at the end of the day Nintendo would have a game that would never be outsold by any other game they make. The casuals, competetive, and melee elitists would be happy. Trust me they lost out on a huge chucnk of money ffrom melee elitists that use forums such as these and other devices to see exactly what smash 4 had to offer before they thought about buying smash 4.

Lets say hypothetically there was an option to turn on/off wavedashing and cancelling and Sakurai didn't want to push his pride to the side. Is that pride worth lets say....250,000 f'in copies of melee elitists that won't buy the game? That's 15 million dollars. Lets say after packaging costs and shipping the games out to retailers they pocket 12.5 million dollars. I think Nintendo is desperate for money right now. Sure smash 4 is going to be a huge massive hit this holiday season but it could have been epic proportions.

But I don't know though that's just me using logic and thinking outside the box. There are other fighting games that have done this before. Look at Capcom how they have had options that drastically change how a game is played. It's not a crazy idea.

 

[Quillion]

How so? There have been plenty of competetive games that have different rulesets at different tournaments. Why does the option of wavedashing and L cancelling scare the sh*t out of people? I'm going to a smash 4 Wii U tourney in a couple weeks at an arcade. I would be perfectly fine if they were or weren't using these mechanics. Either way I could still go with either playstyle. Why is giving the consumer more options to play a bad thing?

Lets say hypothetically there was an option for L cancelling and wavedashing to be turned on or off online/offline and you had the option to filter these options when looking for a game online. What would you care if you ever played me online or not? For all I know I could play every match in for glory and you only select for fun when you play online. We still would never see each other so it's not like the competetive community is being divided. There would just be different paths for how those players chose to be competetive.



Sakurai can say he just wanted a party game all day but the fact of the matter is is that there are hundreds of thousamds of people who want things a certain way. At the end of the day it's not about what he wants but rather the consumer that pays his bills. You think the casuals would care if they implemented wave dashing and L cancelling? Hello no they wouldn't. Most probably would never even hear the term used at all even once, or these boards, or petetitions, or pics of the day etc. They would go on living their partry game lives without a single sh*t to be given about wavedashing and L cancelling. And at the end of the day Nintendo would have a game that would never be outsold by any other game they make. The casuals, competetive, and melee elitists would be happy. Trust me they lost out on a huge chucnk of money ffrom melee elitists that use forums such as these and other devices to see exactly what smash 4 had to offer before they thought about buying smash 4.

Lets say hypothetically there was an option to turn on/off wavedashing and cancelling and Sakurai didn't want to push his pride to the side. Is that pride worth lets say....250,000 f'in copies of melee elitists that won't buy the game? That's 15 million dollars. Lets say after packaging costs and shipping the games out to retailers they pocket 12.5 million dollars. I think Nintendo is desperate for money right now. Sure smash 4 is going to be a huge massive hit this holiday season but it could have been epic proportions.

But I don't know though that's just me using logic and thinking outside the box. There are other fighting games that have done this before. Look at Capcom how they have had options that drastically change how a game is played. It's not a crazy idea.

Which is why the ideal option is to turn wavedashing into a real command action and character-specific techniques into real move properties. Both low-level and high-level players will appreciate the extra degree of freedom.

FREEDOM, PEOPLE; FREEDOM IS THE ISSUE HERE!

 

[Jaedrik]

I have to thank @ LancerStaff for playing devil's advocate. Thanks for drawing so many great points out of everyone.

 

[Praxis]

Another good example: Super Puzzle Fighter had a glitch where if you rotated the diamond as it landed it did twice as much damage. It was already the most powerful item in the game, and suddenly it became super powerful and the game was built around preparing for your opponent's diamond glitch in 25 moves.

Turned out, this actually made the game deeper and more interesting. When Capcom did a HD Remix of Super Puzzle Fighter, they simply made the diamond glitch standard behavior so people didn't need to know the "trick" to use it.

 

[LancerStaff]

How so? There have been plenty of competetive games that have different rulesets at different tournaments. Why does the option of wavedashing and L cancelling scare the sh*t out of people? I'm going to a smash 4 Wii U tourney in a couple weeks at an arcade. I would be perfectly fine if they were or weren't using these mechanics. Either way I could still go with either playstyle. Why is giving the consumer more options to play a bad thing?

Lets say hypothetically there was an option for L cancelling and wavedashing to be turned on or off online/offline and you had the option to filter these options when looking for a game online. What would you care if you ever played me online or not? For all I know I could play every match in for glory and you only select for fun when you play online. We still would never see each other so it's not like the competetive community is being divided. There would just be different paths for how those players chose to be competetive.



Sakurai can say he just wanted a party game all day but the fact of the matter is is that there are hundreds of thousamds of people who want things a certain way. At the end of the day it's not about what he wants but rather the consumer that pays his bills. You think the casuals would care if they implemented wave dashing and L cancelling? Hello no they wouldn't. Most probably would never even hear the term used at all even once, or these boards, or petetitions, or pics of the day etc. They would go on living their partry game lives without a single sh*t to be given about wavedashing and L cancelling. And at the end of the day Nintendo would have a game that would never be outsold by any other game they make. The casuals, competetive, and melee elitists would be happy. Trust me they lost out on a huge chucnk of money ffrom melee elitists that use forums such as these and other devices to see exactly what smash 4 had to offer before they thought about buying smash 4.

Lets say hypothetically there was an option to turn on/off wavedashing and cancelling and Sakurai didn't want to push his pride to the side. Is that pride worth lets say....250,000 f'in copies of melee elitists that won't buy the game? That's 15 million dollars. Lets say after packaging costs and shipping the games out to retailers they pocket 12.5 million dollars. I think Nintendo is desperate for money right now. Sure smash 4 is going to be a huge massive hit this holiday season but it could have been epic proportions.

But I don't know though that's just me using logic and thinking outside the box. There are other fighting games that have done this before. Look at Capcom how they have had options that drastically change how a game is played. It's not a crazy idea.

Do those games have such vitriol surrounding the different rulesets? No. Smash does, and if PM implemented, say, automatic L-canceling as a toggle in names or something, then the community would be up in arms trying to have such feature removed. Go ahead and ask, they're only a few clicks away. We don't need in-game options to further divide these groups.

Hundreds of thousands? Yeah, no. Try a hundred-thousand, most of whom bought SSB4 one way or another. Those who haven't bought SSB4 are an extreme minority. The volcal casuals do in fact care, and would actively drive away the other casuals with their complaining. Less people are upset this way.

Not only is that monetary statistic completely false, as is your claim for Nintendo's desperation. Nintendo's losses have been minor at worst, and largely caused by reinvesting their profits into games.

Another good example: Super Puzzle Fighter had a glitch where if you rotated the diamond as it landed it did twice as much damage. It was already the most powerful item in the game, and suddenly it became super powerful and the game was built around preparing for your opponent's diamond glitch in 25 moves.

Turned out, this actually made the game deeper and more interesting. When Capcom did a HD Remix of Super Puzzle Fighter, they simply made the diamond glitch standard behavior so people didn't need to know the "trick" to use it.

That's a completely different scenario. A glitch, an easy to do one at that, changed the way an offline game was played significantly, and apparently for the better. The glitch is easily implemented into the game, as it's just a changed value, correct? How does one implement Wavedashing seamlessly? You can't. You could seamlessly implement L-canceling, but many who want it to return want it for the "tech skill value" (lol) and it leads to incredibly lopsided balance.

 

[Praxis]

Do those games have such vitriol surrounding the different rulesets? No. Smash does, and if PM implemented, say, automatic L-canceling as a toggle in names or something, then the community would be up in arms trying to have such feature removed. Go ahead and ask, they're only a few clicks away. We don't need in-game options to further divide these groups.

Hundreds of thousands? Yeah, no. Try a hundred-thousand, most of whom bought SSB4 one way or another. Those who haven't bought SSB4 are an extreme minority. The volcal casuals do in fact care, and would actively drive away the other casuals with their complaining. Less people are upset this way.

Not only is that monetary statistic completely false, as is your claim for Nintendo's desperation. Nintendo's losses have been minor at worst, and largely caused by reinvesting their profits into games.



That's a completely different scenario. A glitch, an easy to do one at that, changed the way an offline game was played significantly, and apparently for the better. The glitch is easily implemented into the game, as it's just a changed value, correct? How does one implement Wavedashing seamlessly? You can't. You could seamlessly implement L-canceling, but many who want it to return want it for the "tech skill value" (lol) and it leads to incredibly lopsided balance.

Actually, that's easy. C-stick while shielding wavedashes, or turn buffering on making wavedashing not require timing.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually, that's easy. C-stick while shielding wavedashes, or turn buffering on making wavedashing not require timing.

Wii remote, 3DS.

 

[Munomario777]

Wii remote, 3DS.

Direction + attack simultaneously.

 

[LancerStaff]

Direction + attack simultaneously.

That'd just result in a ton of grabs.

This is all just beating around the bush anyway. Making the C-stick required to perform certain moves is adding another necessary imput, and not seamless whatsoever. No extra imputs, no complicated ones, and no overriding existing moves.

 

[Munomario777]

That'd just result in a ton of grabs.

This is all just beating around the bush anyway. Making the C-stick required to perform certain moves is adding another necessary imput, and not seamless whatsoever. No extra imputs, no complicated ones, and no overriding existing moves.

You don't punch if you execute a smash attack correctly with that method, so you wouldn't grab executing the wavedash correctly with that method.

The C-Stick isn't required, it's not complicated, and it doesn't override an existing move.

 

[LancerStaff]

You don't punch if you execute a smash attack correctly with that method, so you wouldn't grab executing the wavedash correctly with that method.

The C-Stick isn't required, it's not complicated, and it doesn't override an existing move.

How do you expect to do it out of a dash, hm?

 

[Munomario777]

How do you expect to do it out of a dash, hm?

Who said anything about doing it out of a dash?

 

[LancerStaff]

Who said anything about doing it out of a dash?

Normal Wavedashing works like that. It's pretty important, since you can basically do anything out of a dash with it. If it had to be done the way you suggested, it would solely be for shuffling over slightly when standing still. Meaning it's basically worthless.

 

[Munomario777]

Normal Wavedashing works like that. It's pretty important, since you can basically do anything out of a dash with it. If it had to be done the way you suggested, it would solely be for shuffling over slightly when standing still. Meaning it's basically worthless.

I didn't suggest it. I just said it was possible.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Why does Sora need ATs when you can play the game the way it was meant to be. Someone on this thread said that if you need to cheat to win, then something is wrong here. Nintendo doesn't care about competitive players when they could be making money. Which is a good thing.

 

[Roukiske]

Why does Sora need ATs when you can play the game the way it was meant to be. Someone on this thread said that if you need to cheat to win, then something is wrong here. Nintendo doesn't care about competitive players when they could be making money. Which is a good thing.

Sorry if I get this wrong, but I see this as implying that advanced techniques are a form of cheating. The majority of melee players (you know, the ones who actually play the game and not the ones who complain about it) disagree otherwise as its not banned in tournaments and I think are quite happy they are in.

Look, on this site there's bashing on games that they are this and that from what seems to be players who just don't like game x. I'll say this, I didn't like Brawl competitively, that's all I will say. To those who play it, that's your game. Your community likes to play it a certain way and that's cool, I like that, have fun with your game. So other way around, we like to play Melee a certain way alright? Neither game is perfect. Since this is all the same great series called Smash I'd like Nintendo to embrace many AT's from all games with balance in mind.

I didn't like how DACUS could only be done by a small portion of the cast. I like how everyone can wavedash (also important is that everyone can waveland to a platform which is very useful). I like how everyone can grab the ledge while facing any direction (not an AT but still cool). RAR is useful so now you don't have to do backwards wavedashes to get fast bairs. I didn't like how only fox, falco, and samus (IIRC) used to be able to cancel their projectile's landing lag and Mario couldn't. I like how everyone's landing lag was taken into account so you don't need to L-cancel in this game (though they could have lightened up a little bit more since shields are god). Those are some examples of AT's I liked and didn't like. Some were OP, some were useful, some aren't even needed to win all the time with certain characters (I did not need to use DACUS with Snake to win, I played him weird...).

Regardless of what Smash 4 could have been or what it is now, I hope all of you who are posting here are enjoying the game and playing it. Coming from Melee my friends looked at this game as mmmmaybe... and after showing them some neat stuff I think they are starting to like it more as a separate game. It's not going to replace Melee, but now we have 2 competitive Nintendo games to play.

 

[SmashChu]

I think LancerStaff is bringing up some good points but it gets ignored. I'll go into more detail another time, but I will say this: the problem is the "Melee good, Brawl bad" mentality. ATs are considered amazing because Melee had them. Forget the fact that wavedashing was silly and have an awkward input and L-canceling is bad game design. It's AT so it's awesome. All ATs do is raise the skill ceiling where it doesn't need to go. The game is meant to be easy to get into. Having a lot of techniques isn't the way to go.

Sakurai can say he just wanted a party game all day but the fact of the matter is is that there are hundreds of thousamds of people who want things a certain way. At the end of the day it's not about what he wants but rather the consumer that pays his bills. You think the casuals would care if they implemented wave dashing and L cancelling? Hello no they wouldn't. Most probably would never even hear the term used at all even once, or these boards, or petetitions, or pics of the day etc. They would go on living their partry game lives without a single sh*t to be given about wavedashing and L cancelling. And at the end of the day Nintendo would have a game that would never be outsold by any other game they make. The casuals, competetive, and melee elitists would be happy. Trust me they lost out on a huge chucnk of money ffrom melee elitists that use forums such as these and other devices to see exactly what smash 4 had to offer before they thought about buying smash 4.

Time for a history lesson.

Many casual fans hated the mentality of SmashBoards and many still do. Wavedashing was universally hated by anyone outside of SmashBoards and considered it a glitch and that people who used it "were breaking the game." It's outcry was likely a big reason air dodging was changed in the first place. A lot of other thing came out too (Tier are 4 Queers, Fox Only Final Destination). But most people were not happy with these ATs. The so-called casuals knew about it and they didn't like it.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Time for a history lesson.

Many casual fans hated the mentality of SmashBoards and many still do. Wavedashing was universally hated by anyone outside of SmashBoards and considered it a glitch and that people who used it "were breaking the game." It's outcry was likely a big reason air dodging was changed in the first place. A lot of other thing came out too (Tier are 4 Queers, Fox Only Final Destination). But most people were not happy with these ATs. The so-called casuals knew about it and they didn't like it.

I'll restate my point I made in my previous post. Why the h*ll would casuals care about some guy sitting in his moms basement practicing wave dashing all afternoon. It's like saying I hate gay people but "johnny shouldn't have broke up with Charlie" at the water cooler at work. Who the h*ll cares it had nothing to do with you and you hated it in the first place(this is me hypothetically speaking to casuals worrying about the "great divide" lancerstaff likes to speak of.?

Let me give you a history lesson. You might have been on these boards longer than I have but I can promise you I've been playing smash since the 64 launch and when wavedashing came out in melee I embraced it along with the people I played with at LAN and arcade centers. I don't ever remember anyone saying it was breaking the game and in fact everyone who went to tournaments in Miami and Ft lauderdale used it. You should already know this if you went to tournaments back then.

 

[SmashChu]

I'll restate my point I made in my previous post. Why the h*ll would casuals care about some guy sitting in his moms basement practicing wave dashing all afternoon. It's like saying I hate gay people but "johnny shouldn't have broke up with Charlie" at the water cooler at work. Who the h*ll cares it had nothing to do with you and you hated it in the first place(this is me hypothetically speaking to casuals worrying about the "great divide" lancerstaff likes to speak of.?

Let me give you a history lesson. You might have been on these boards longer than I have but I can promise you I've been playing smash since the 64 launch and when wavedashing came out in melee I embraced it along with the people I played with at LAN and arcade centers. I don't ever remember anyone saying it was breaking the game and in fact everyone who went to tournaments in Miami and Ft lauderdale used it. You should already know this if you went to tournaments back then.

Bolded because you made a point for me. Good job. Have a cookie. You specific hung out with people who didn't see it as a problem. There is an "in group" for you and everyone you hung out with would confirm your beliefs. If they went to tournaments (and actually came back) then they were like the people here who want it back, but they do not represent the majority. This doesn't mean it wasn't dumb. I'll have you know I played 64 when it came out as well and I have gone to tournaments as well.

The other thing you have to understand is this game is online. Why do you think snaking was a problem in Mario Kart DS but not Double Dash. It was in both games. The issue was it was online. And the issue in Smash was the games were going online. To the majority of people, it looked like cheating. And they'd have a point. It's not how the game was designed and balanced. It was foreign. People didn't want to have to learn an obtuse maneuver to be able to play and enjoy online. These things ruin online and it's why Snaking has been gone since Mario Kart DS. Case in point, it affects everyone.

 

[Jaedrik]

The vocal casuals do in fact care, and would actively drive away the other casuals with their complaining.

I went to Gamestop for both Smash 4 release events. The impression I got was quite the opposite of the casual majority being informed, and I talked to most of the people in the store (I'm a people's man, what can I say?).
The 'other casuals' have to know the vocal casuals first off. Few of the people there had even heard of Smashboards, and fewer still had the supposedly orthodox views you think they did. Nobody really hated it, their comments were that of an outsider. I'd say that such 'other casuals', that is the vast majority, are so casual to the point where they don't have any interaction with the 'vocal casuals' anyways.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Bolded because you made a point for me. Good job. Have a cookie. You specific hung out with people who didn't see it as a problem. There is an "in group" for you and everyone you hung out with would confirm your beliefs. If they went to tournaments (and actually came back) then they were like the people here who want it back, but they do not represent the majority. This doesn't mean it wasn't dumb. I'll have you know I played 64 when it came out as well and I have good to tournaments as well.

The other thing you have to understand is this game is online. Why do you think snaking was a problem in Mario Kart DS but not Double Dash. It was in both games. The issue was it was online. And the issue in Smash was the games were going online. To the majority of people, it looked like cheating. And they'd have a point. It's not how the game was designed and balanced. It was foreign. People didn't want to have to learn an obtuse maneuver to be able to play and enjoy online. These things ruin online and it's why Snaking has been gone since Mario Kart DS. Case in point, it affects everyone.

He's right. Since Brawl was going online, people who just wanted to play the game will think everyone is cheating and there is nothing they could do about it. If you lost 600 times in a row to the same bug, what would you do? Quit. It's like threading a bowling ball through an eye of a needle. You're just not going to do it.

 

[PCHU]

Bolded because you made a point for me. Good job. Have a cookie. You specific hung out with people who didn't see it as a problem. There is an "in group" for you and everyone you hung out with would confirm your beliefs. If they went to tournaments (and actually came back) then they were like the people here who want it back, but they do not represent the majority. This doesn't mean it wasn't dumb. I'll have you know I played 64 when it came out as well and I have good to tournaments as well.

The other thing you have to understand is this game is online. Why do you think snaking was a problem in Mario Kart DS but not Double Dash. It was in both games. The issue was it was online. And the issue in Smash was the games were going online. To the majority of people, it looked like cheating. And they'd have a point. It's not how the game was designed and balanced. It was foreign. People didn't want to have to learn an obtuse maneuver to be able to play and enjoy online. These things ruin online and it's why Snaking has been gone since Mario Kart DS. Case in point, it affects everyone.

The thing is that a lot of the smaller techs like JC grab (very useful but not OP), tree grabbing (I believe it was called, which got replaced with a much more forgiving turnaround grab), and crouch cancel dash (didn't happen all that often due to dash dancing, but still useful) don't affect the casual audience to the degree snaking did, don't look game-breaking or glitchy (have you seen CF's Smash 4 dashgrab?), and really, only add on to what characters are capable of using.
You could say that some benefit from these more than others, to which I say some characters have better grabs/aerials OoS, some have better dashgrabs, some have useful walljumps, the list goes on.
Really, if the "advanced" label were completely dropped and they (the simple techs) were introduced as basics of the game, people wouldn't complain nearly as much because it'd be viewed as being part of the game rather than an add-on to use as a scapegoat for all of their shortcomings as players.

I don't believe casuals are bad people by any stretch, but a lot of this has to do with presentation:
If someone never told me about Rapid Cancel in BlazBlue and pit me against a (CT) Nu-13 player who uses it as her BnB, I'd be upset because it looks like this character has something incredibly useful available while I don't; I'd hate on Nu-13 for all the wrong reasons.
It is an advanced aspect, but it's still explained in the game's manual, so naturally I'm more okay with Ragna being able to RC his DP into barrier -> jump to avoid the impending Spark Bolt charge-buffered 720.
If you haven't played the game, it just looks like a bunch of fancy lingo, but really, it all boils down to the simple point that people are more willing to be okay with something that they're told about ahead of time.

Still, this theory falls flat when you look at turnaround cancel in Smash 4; I don't think anyone's whined about it even though some characters benefit more from it than others, but it's hard to catch at times so it kinda blends in with the gameplay, just like the rest of these small techs I've mentioned.
JC grab requires some fast fingers, but the benefit is marginal when you consider the dashgrab range some characters have; crouch cancel dash would be really useful for characters like DK who can't cover very much ground and have a laggy dash attack/aerials.
The turnaround grab being made infinitely easier is a great thing, and I'd like to see a lot more of that from Nintendo.

As I've said before, I don't care about not getting to do a million inputs so long as I have good control over my character and the game feels smooth.
Yeah, you might not be able to JC grab, but you know what?
Some people can't short hop, and they play the game anyway.
Wolf's Brawl DACUS was flashy as heck (and I loved him for it), but it didn't benefit him that much and wasn't necessary to play him, so naturally, not many people were really that upset that they couldn't perform it.

Not all of this is directed at you, but take from this what you will.

 

[Quillion]

Actually, that's easy. C-stick while shielding wavedashes, or turn buffering on making wavedashing not require timing.

No, that wouldn't work either.

I already presented my idea of making the initial dash more versatile by giving you the ability to act out of it.
I presented my idea to the Project M forum, but they all shot me down because "lol u just suck at it." And this was even though I was trying to make clear that I don't hate it because I suck at it.

There are two ways I can think of how they can "ascend" the wavedash to being a real basic mechanic:

• Map it to a button+press. Like, for example, mapping the dash to the R button + direction while making Shield/rolling mapped to L button. The disadvantage here is that Wiimotes can't do it, but then again, Wiimotes can't do up-tilts. And it's clear that in Smash 4, they're advocating use of any of the "classic"-based controllers + GamePad instead of Wiimote.
• Combine the initial dash (foxtrot) with the wavedash. Doing this would make it that tapping the control stick and holding would run, but tapping the control stick and not holding would make you dash forward and be able to do anything out of it. Someone brought up that you wouldn't be able to do a dash attack out of it, but if you press A during the initial tap and not make another tap or "relax" it into a tilt, you can DA.

Sad thing is, though, the Melee community might still call it "dumbed down for noobs" if Sakurai/the new Smash head developer would take my suggestion.

 

[Roukiske]

No, that wouldn't work either.

I already presented my idea of making the initial dash more versatile by giving you the ability to act out of it.
I presented my idea to the Project M forum, but they all shot me down because "lol u just suck at it." And this was even though I was trying to make clear that I don't hate it because I suck at it.

There are two ways I can think of how they can "ascend" the wavedash to being a real basic mechanic:

• Map it to a button+press. Like, for example, mapping the dash to the R button + direction while making Shield/rolling mapped to L button. The disadvantage here is that Wiimotes can't do it, but then again, Wiimotes can't do up-tilts. And it's clear that in Smash 4, they're advocating use of any of the "classic"-based controllers + GamePad instead of Wiimote.
• Combine the initial dash (foxtrot) with the wavedash. Doing this would make it that tapping the control stick and holding would run, but tapping the control stick and not holding would make you dash forward and be able to do anything out of it. Someone brought up that you wouldn't be able to do a dash attack out of it, but if you press A during the initial tap and not make another tap or "relax" it into a tilt, you can DA.

Sad thing is, though, the Melee community might still call it "dumbed down for noobs" if Sakurai/the new Smash head developer would take my suggestion.

I don't think "lol u just suck at it", but I do think that the input for wavedashing makes the most sense physics-wise. In your examples I don't see how you can implement wavelanding since that is just as important for movement freedom. To me, the examples also sound like it complicates inputs even more, I could be wrong. You can space similarly in Marvel through triangle jumps which is essentially the same physical input as a wavedash (jump up, air dash down-back or down-forward).

In this game though we have fast rolls and turn around f-tils/smash so they gave us a little more freedom. You can think of that as the "dumbed-down" version with less freedom.

 

[KoM]

He's right. Since Brawl was going online, people who just wanted to play the game will think everyone is cheating and there is nothing they could do about it. If you lost 600 times in a row to the same bug, what would you do? Quit. It's like threading a bowling ball through an eye of a needle. You're just not going to do it.

I'm not against your point but you know you're posting on a competitive forum, right?

This is just me but if I was in the position, I'd just fight better and learn.

 

[Quillion]

I don't think "lol u just suck at it", but I do think that the input for wavedashing makes the most sense physics-wise. In your examples I don't see how you can implement wavelanding since that is just as important for movement freedom. To me, the examples also sound like it complicates inputs even more, I could be wrong. You can space similarly in Marvel through triangle jumps which is essentially the same physical input as a wavedash (jump up, air dash down-back or down-forward).

In this game though we have fast rolls and turn around f-tils/smash so they gave us a little more freedom. You can think of that as the "dumbed-down" version with less freedom.

Wavelanding is more of a consequence of the directional airdodge than it is of the air dodge slide. Even if there was no slide from wavedashing, you can still hasten your fall by airdodging into the ground.

Wavelanding would be impossible with the momentum-conserving airdodge either way.

And people, stop thinking in terms of all-or-nothing. When I said that wavedashing should be turned into a real mechanic, it needs to have MOST of the functionality, not all of it. I can understand thinking like that in regards to PM, but in regards to a new Smash game? No.

 

[LancerStaff]

I went to Gamestop for both Smash 4 release events. The impression I got was quite the opposite of the casual majority being informed, and I talked to most of the people in the store (I'm a people's man, what can I say?).
The 'other casuals' have to know the vocal casuals first off. Few of the people there had even heard of Smashboards, and fewer still had the supposedly orthodox views you think they did. Nobody really hated it, their comments were that of an outsider. I'd say that such 'other casuals', that is the vast majority, are so casual to the point where they don't have any interaction with the 'vocal casuals' anyways.

Do you really think an average Joe in a Gamestop will tell you he thinks ATs are worthless? And do you think most complaining about said ATs would be on Smashboards?

Really, if the "advanced" label were completely dropped and they (the simple techs) were introduced as basics of the game, people wouldn't complain nearly as much because it'd be viewed as being part of the game rather than an add-on to use as a scapegoat for all of their shortcomings as players.

Therein lies the problem. Smash is widely seen as complex enough. We don't need these "techs," so they aren't added and intergrated. They're abandoned to keep SSB as the casual not-fighting game it was designed to be.

You keep flip-floping between "They're useful so keep them" and "They're totes not necessary so keep them," so which is it?

Yaknow, if you people want "flashyness" and "hype" and "tech skill," I'm pretty sure you're looking in the wrong place. Why not try F-Zero GX?

I'm not against your point but you know you're posting on a competitive forum, right?

This is just me but if I was in the position, I'd just fight better and learn.

This isn't exactly the most competitive forum, yaknow... Most users just signed up because of Smash hype and they're trying to find decent players. I'd wager most Smashboarders consider themselves less then competitive, and that's just the ones that have checked in this century. "Hardcores" wouldn't exactly abandon their account, hm?

 

[PCHU]

Therein lies the problem. Smash is widely seen as complex enough. We don't need these "techs," so they aren't added and intergrated. They're abandoned to keep SSB as the casual not-fighting game it was designed to be.

You keep flip-floping between "They're useful so keep them" and "They're totes not necessary so keep them," so which is it?

Yaknow, if you people want "flashyness" and "hype" and "tech skill," I'm pretty sure you're looking in the wrong place. Why not try F-Zero GX?

I'm not flip-flopping between anything; you keep telling me they give an unfair advantage, make you fight against the game, and yet they're arbitrary.
I'm saying no, you don't NEED them, but they do add on to the game and keep things interesting.
ATs aren't ruining the game because a few are still there, and nobody's whining about it.
I think it's cool that Nintendo is leaving some things for people to explore and mess around with, and I think that more "basic interactions with the physics system" wouldn't harm the game, or at least adding back things like CF/Ganondorf's ability to double jump again after downB.

And you're right, basic Smash (2-minute timer, items, any stage) is designed to be a party game because skill is not the sole determinant of the winner, and pretty much anyone can win regardless of mastering the basics.
But that's where FG comes in, and while I'd argue it's not the best mode for competitive purposes, it's still evident that Sakurai wanted something for more "serious" players, and I'd think that with adding turnaround cancel and modifying locks to only go for three iterations, they still want to include some aspects that reward people for looking into the game more, but don't reward them enough for it to be an issue to take them away.

In a way, I guess ATs to you are like them adding Dark Pit/Lucina/Dr. Mario to me; I don't have to use them and I don't really like them, but they're there and they're not really ruining anything.
Free dessert for people who want to learn more about the game.

 

[Jaedrik]

Do you really think an average Joe in a Gamestop will tell you he thinks ATs are worthless? And do you think most complaining about said ATs would be on Smashboards?

I'm going to give you a non-answer, since you're asking the wrong questions.
The 'average Joe', another word for casual, does not know enough about ATs in the first place to make a judgement call. Even if they did know what I was taking about (in most of the cases they didn't), their opinion of it was a general disregard. Like 'oh, yeah I know about that. I don't care enough to know anything beyond it existing, nor do I care enough to have a non-neutral opinion.' Those who gave slightly negative (and I do mean slightly, nobody was anywhere near as rabidly "casual" as the people on Smashboards) positions of it were open to being persuaded and properly informed.
I doubt I'm THAT good at befriending and persuading people.
The second question I think I can answer, though. Yes, I would say that the vast majority of people truly complaining about ATs would care enough about them to complain. There is no easier and more self-satisfying a way to complain with little risk than through the internet. The only other place where this stuff will happen are the multitude of Facebook groups that have sprung up around Smash, or perhaps in Youtube comments, but I'm betting that the people who complain there at least have a Smashboards account. We are the alpha and omega of Smash sites, after all, and what better place is there to evangelize the perspective I call 'casual elitism'? It sounds like an oxymoron, I know, but it's just as bad and real as any other elitism. I'd even say moreso than any other form of elitism in the Smash community.

 

[KoM]

This isn't exactly the most competitive forum, yaknow... Most users just signed up because of Smash hype and they're trying to find decent players. I'd wager most Smashboarders consider themselves less then competitive, and that's just the ones that have checked in this century. "Hardcores" wouldn't exactly abandon their account, hm?

No, this is the most competitive forum. That's why it's here. Smash has broad appeal but Smashboards is meant for competitive discussion. You have a really bad habit of bringing up sweeping generalizations without having anything to back them up other than your own opinion, I've noticed.

I'm not saying this site isn't full of casuals or that they don't belong here, but this isn't made to be a casual site. It's meant for serious discussion and improving your game, the other stuff is just for fun.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not flip-flopping between anything; you keep telling me they give an unfair advantage, make you fight against the game, and yet they're arbitrary.
I'm saying no, you don't NEED them, but they do add on to the game and keep things interesting.
ATs aren't ruining the game because a few are still there, and nobody's whining about it.
I think it's cool that Nintendo is leaving some things for people to explore and mess around with, and I think that more "basic interactions with the physics system" wouldn't harm the game, or at least adding back things like CF/Ganondorf's ability to double jump again after downB.

And you're right, basic Smash (2-minute timer, items, any stage) is designed to be a party game because skill is not the sole determinant of the winner, and pretty much anyone can win regardless of mastering the basics.
But that's where FG comes in, and while I'd argue it's not the best mode for competitive purposes, it's still evident that Sakurai wanted something for more "serious" players, and I'd think that with adding turnaround cancel and modifying locks to only go for three iterations, they still want to include some aspects that reward people for looking into the game more, but don't reward them enough for it to be an issue to take them away.

In a way, I guess ATs to you are like them adding Dark Pit/Lucina/Dr. Mario to me; I don't have to use them and I don't really like them, but they're there and they're not really ruining anything.
Free dessert for people who want to learn more about the game.

Why do a dashing Usmash when you can DACUS? Why do a dashing grab from a standstill when you can roll cancel grab? And so on. You see something to learn, I see a finicky imput basically hard coding tripping into the game that arbitrarily buffs certain characters over others. You say it's not necessary, but that's false. They're required to compete and just get in the way.

I'm going to give you a non-answer, since you're asking the wrong questions.
The 'average Joe', another word for casual, does not know enough about ATs in the first place to make a judgement call. Even if they did know what I was taking about (in most of the cases they didn't), their opinion of it was a general disregard. Like 'oh, yeah I know about that. I don't care enough to know anything beyond it existing, nor do I care enough to have a non-neutral opinion.' Those who gave slightly negative (and I do mean slightly, nobody was anywhere near as rabidly "casual" as the people on Smashboards) positions of it were open to being persuaded and properly informed.
I doubt I'm THAT good at befriending and persuading people.
The second question I think I can answer, though. Yes, I would say that the vast majority of people truly complaining about ATs would care enough about them to complain. There is no easier and more self-satisfying a way to complain with little risk than through the internet. The only other place where this stuff will happen are the multitude of Facebook groups that have sprung up around Smash, or perhaps in Youtube comments, but I'm betting that the people who complain there at least have a Smashboards account. We are the alpha and omega of Smash sites, after all, and what better place is there to evangelize the perspective I call 'casual elitism'? It sounds like an oxymoron, I know, but it's just as bad and real as any other elitism. I'd even say moreso than any other form of elitism in the Smash community.

Fine. Would the average Joe that understands what "techs" are tell you what he thinks of them? Would he say something that would potentially spark a real world argument? People in public don't give honest opinions, they give acceptable opinions.

Obviously complaints about "techs" aren't that common. Why, you ask? Because dealing with them isn't incredibly common or obvious, and those that are smart enough already know whatever minor thing there currently is will be long gone when the big 3DS Amiibo/Wii U online features/Mewtwo update rolls around. If SSB4 was just Melee online, you'd see rampant complaining.

No, this is the most competitive forum. That's why it's here. Smash has broad appeal but Smashboards is meant for competitive discussion. You have a really bad habit of bringing up sweeping generalizations without having anything to back them up other than your own opinion, I've noticed.

I'm not saying this site isn't full of casuals or that they don't belong here, but this isn't made to be a casual site. It's meant for serious discussion and improving your game, the other stuff is just for fun.

The problem being that the "just for fun" junk is about 1000 times more active then the actual competitive stuff. Most users sign up either to find good players, like I said, or to attempt at becoming a pro. Most don't get very far and either leave or stick around and chat with friends.

Just look at the articles on the front page. Tournament stuff gets a fourth of the activity as the PotD about Luigi sniffing Marth's neck does.

 

[KoM]

The problem being that the "just for fun" junk is about 1000 times more active then the actual competitive stuff. Most users sign up either to find good players, like I said, or to attempt at becoming a pro. Most don't get very far and either leave or stick around and chat with friends.

Just look at the articles on the front page. Tournament stuff gets a fourth of the activity as the PotD about Luigi sniffing Marth's neck does.

Maybe that's because for a year and a half there was hype for a new picture 5 days a week.

And the award for best Strawman goes to... LancerStaff!

 

[LancerStaff]

Maybe that's because for a year and a half there was hype for a new picture 5 days a week.

And the award for best Strawman goes to... LancerStaff!

And the longest running topics on the Wii U forum are the funny pictures thread and the laugh at Miiverse thread.
And the most active topics are the social threads.
And articles like Dr. Doom playing Smash still get more activity then basically anything involving tournaments.

Tell me, what's the most active competitive forum for SSB4 on this site? It's apparently hard to find... According to you, it should be more active then social threads.

 

[KoM]

And the longest running topics on the Wii U forum are the funny pictures thread and the laugh at Miiverse thread.
And the most active topics are the social threads.
And articles like Dr. Doom playing Smash still get more activity then basically anything involving tournaments.

Tell me, what's the most active competitive forum for SSB4 on this site? It's apparently hard to find... According to you, it should be more active then social threads.

I'm not arguing that silly stuff like that is more popular, I'm stating a fact. That Smashboards was made for and is for competitive discussion. Not sure how you misinterpreted that.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not arguing that silly stuff like that is more popular, I'm stating a fact. That Smashboards was made for and is for competitive discussion. Not sure how you misinterpreted that.

And Smash was made for casual FFAs. Does what it was made for matter, or what it's actually used for, hm?

Smashboards was originally made for competitive discussion, but it gets more activity for it's social forums more then anything else. This isn't a minority, it's the majority. If they didn't want people coming here for that, they wouldn't of supported it in the first place.

 

[KoM]

And Smash was made for casual FFAs. Does what it was made for matter, or what it's actually used for, hm?

Smashboards was originally made for competitive discussion, but it gets more activity for it's social forums more then anything else. This isn't a minority, it's the majority. If they didn't want people coming here for that, they wouldn't of supported it in the first place.

That's not the point holy crap why don't you get that?

And when the hell did I say they don't want casuals? Don't put words in my mouth or anyone else's for that matter.

I'm saying this IS a competitive forum. Anyone who loves smash is welcome here but what you're saying is 'This is a baseball. It was made to have fun, millions of people around the world play catch with it. Does it matter that there are people who use the baseball competitively when the overwhelming majority use it to screw around and toss it back and forth, hm?' The hm makes you sound very condescending by the way and doesn't help your argument.

All I'm saying is that Smashboards is a competitive site. That's not debatable, that's stating a fact.

 

[Jaedrik]

Fine. Would the average Joe that understands what "techs" are tell you what he thinks of them? Would he say something that would potentially spark a real world argument? People in public don't give honest opinions, they give acceptable opinions.

Obviously complaints about "techs" aren't that common. Why, you ask? Because dealing with them isn't incredibly common or obvious, and those that are smart enough already know whatever minor thing there currently is will be long gone when the big 3DS Amiibo/Wii U online features/Mewtwo update rolls around. If SSB4 was just Melee online, you'd see rampant complaining.

I do believe they were being entirely honest with me. Anyone who, putting forward the proper disposition of charity and genuine interest infects others with honesty and peace. There were no high tensions, and everyone I spoke to was completely at ease. I was able to contradict others and discuss things with serenity. There were, as I said, people who disagreed with me, but what I mean when I say they were open to me is that we had calm and friendly discussions ABOUT the things we disagreed on with no double meanings or fronts to our words, therefore little or no thought of sparking a 'real world' argument even crossed their mind. Either they're all expert liars with supreme control of the self, they are all subconsciously deluding themselves with no noticable outward signs, or you can trust in my estimation of their intentions and dispositions. Those release events were probably the best I've done at honest listening and honest speaking in my life, and I was received well. Say I rolled a natural 20 on my diplomacy and sense motive checks?

You have adopted the same view that Sakurai has. He wrongly thinks that designing for the casual and hardcore are mutually exclusive.

. . . If a game designer be magnanimous, there is no other choice other than to design a game with a high skill ceiling if his intention be to provide fun for both the casual and hardcore audiences. . . .

. . . [T]herefore it is said that the segregation of casuals and hardcore players is both viable and admirable. It is not the sole intention of matchmaking, however. That might be a discussion for another time. . . .

That time is now. It is not a necessary, natural, inevitable, or however you wish to put it, thing that designing with a high skill ceiling then excludes people with a low skill from enjoying the game. Therefore, it cannot be said that tech, or ATs whatsoever are always at fault for turning people away simply because their opponent uses them. With proper skill based matchmaking, one can easily segregate the casual from the hardcore to the extent that the lower are not so thoroughly trounced as to give up completely. It is the fault, then, of one for not designing the solution to this problem, rather than creating the problem through adding depth of gameplay, which is the most noble of gameplay elements.

You seem to have a few underlying assumptions as to these hypothetical complainers. First, that they would be prideful enough to think them better than they are, enough so that they would complain unjustly. Second, that they would be playing a game mode which makes the real gaps between the players and the ability to manipulate the mechanics more apparent, perhaps For Glory 1v1. Thirdly that they would be more or less accurate and honest in their appraisal of the strength of another. Fourth, that they would see that it is the mechanic itself that helps improve the power of the opponent. Fifth, that they view the mechanic itself as the cause of the perceived (and fictitious) injustice of their loss, rather than blaming characters, stages, items, the other player, or some other inconvenience.
Now, surely not all of these are true for your hypothetical complainer, but I thought I'd try to cover all the bases. Regardless, denying a number of these combinations, or even say five by itself given its scope, are tall orders for the hypothetical complainers.

Only the most prideful or arrogant of individuals both have a real, deep analysis of their failure, and still refuse to acknowledge that it is their fault for not learning that which is necessary to advance in skill. They are the slothful that demand everything be brought down to their level. They are the wrathful whose anger is petty. These people are rare, and they should not be catered to. They are the only ones relevant to your complaints about the removal of techs.

For everyone else, it proves nothing much, since if they honestly assess their play they would be far better off with a lodestar, a canon, a measuring rod, a saint, who is superior to them to fight against, since thereby they might see what the other person is doing right rather than what they are doing wrong.

And Smash was made for casual FFAs. Does what it was made for matter, or what it's actually used for, hm?

Smashboards was originally made for competitive discussion, but it gets more activity for it's social forums more then anything else. This isn't a minority, it's the majority. If they didn't want people coming here for that, they wouldn't of supported it in the first place.

Like KoM said, it doesn't matter that casual threads have much higher post counts or activity. Actually, I'd say that distinguishing a 'casual' thread from a hardcore thread is meaningless, since there may be hardcore players who post often in a casual thread (see, Project M Social Thread). Regardless, the majority of people on Smashboards enjoy seeing competitive matches every once in a while, or talking about these things. It should be obvious from the 'vocal casual minority' which you yourself talked about earlier, since we get in to so many arguments about these things.

Edit 2: I'm a little confused now, this is interesting. If the vocal casuals are a minority, and we've established that the straight casuals have little or no contact with them, then how can they ruin the casual experience? or if that's the only problem, and granting that they do get 'enough' contact with them, however we'd quantify that (perhaps as losing sales?), then isn't Lancerstaff just one such vocal casual? The argument he brought up is pointing at himself saying "I am the problem, but everyone should bow to me so I don't feel like being a problem any more"?

 

[KoM]

I do believe they were being entirely honest with me. Anyone who, putting forward the proper disposition of charity and genuine interest infects others with honesty and peace. There were no high tensions, and everyone I spoke to was completely at ease. I was able to contradict others and discuss things with serenity. There were, as I said, people who disagreed with me, but what I mean when I say they were open to me is that we had calm and friendly discussions ABOUT the things we disagreed on with no double meanings or fronts to our words, therefore little or no thought of sparking a 'real world' argument even crossed their mind. Either they're all expert liars with supreme control of the self, they are all subconsciously deluding themselves with no noticable outward signs, or you can trust in my estimation of their intentions and dispositions. Those release events were probably the best I've done at honest listening and honest speaking in my life, and I was received well. Say I rolled a natural 20 on my diplomacy and sense motive checks?

You have adopted the same view that Sakurai has. He wrongly thinks that designing for the casual and hardcore are mutually exclusive.

That time is now. It is not a necessary, natural, inevitable, or however you wish to put it, thing that designing with a high skill ceiling then excludes people with a low skill from enjoying the game. Therefore, it cannot be said that tech, or ATs whatsoever are always at fault for turning people away simply because their opponent uses them. With proper skill based matchmaking, one can easily segregate the casual from the hardcore to the extent that the lower are not so thoroughly trounced as to give up completely. It is the fault, then, of one for not designing the solution to this problem, rather than creating the problem through adding depth of gameplay, which is the most noble of gameplay elements.

You seem to have a few underlying assumptions as to these hypothetical complainers. First, that they would be prideful enough to think them better than they are, enough so that they would complain unjustly. Second, that they would be playing a game mode which makes the real gaps between the players and the ability to manipulate the mechanics more apparent, perhaps For Glory 1v1. Thirdly that they would be more or less accurate and honest in their appraisal of the strength of another. Fourth, that they would see that it is the mechanic itself that helps improve the power of the opponent. Fifth, that they view the mechanic itself as the cause of the perceived (and fictitious) injustice of their loss, rather than blaming characters, stages, items, the other player, or some other inconvenience.
Now, surely not all of these are true for your hypothetical complainer, but I thought I'd try to cover all the bases. Regardless, denying a number of these combinations, or even say five by itself given its scope, are tall orders for the hypothetical complainers.

Only the most prideful or arrogant of individuals both have a real, deep analysis of their failure, and still refuse to acknowledge that it is their fault for not learning that which is necessary to advance in skill. They are the slothful that demand everything be brought down to their level. They are the wrathful whose anger is petty. These people are rare, and they should not be catered to. They are the only ones relevant to your complaints about the removal of techs.

For everyone else, it proves nothing much, since if they honestly assess their play they would be far better off with a lodestar, a canon, a measuring rod, a saint, who is superior to them to fight against, since thereby they might see what the other person is doing right rather than what they are doing wrong.
Like KoM said, it doesn't matter that casual threads have much higher post counts or activity. Actually, I'd say that distinguishing a 'casual' thread from a hardcore thread is meaningless, since there may be hardcore players who post often in a casual thread (see, Project M Social Thread). Regardless, the majority of people on Smashboards enjoy seeing competitive matches every once in a while, or talking about these things. It should be obvious from the 'vocal casual minority' which you yourself talked about earlier, since we get in to so many arguments about these things.

Edit 2: I'm a little confused now, this is interesting. If the vocal casuals are a minority, and we've established that the straight casuals have little or no contact with them, then how can they ruin the casual experience? or if that's the only problem, and granting that they do get 'enough' contact with them, however we'd quantify that (perhaps as losing sales?), then isn't Lancerstaff just one such vocal casual? The argument he brought up is pointing at himself saying "I am the problem, but everyone should bow to me so I don't feel like being a problem any more"?

/thread

 

[PCHU]

Why do a dashing Usmash when you can DACUS? Why do a dashing grab from a standstill when you can roll cancel grab? And so on. You see something to learn, I see a finicky imput basically hard coding tripping into the game that arbitrarily buffs certain characters over others. You say it's not necessary, but that's false. They're required to compete and just get in the way.



Fine. Would the average Joe that understands what "techs" are tell you what he thinks of them? Would he say something that would potentially spark a real world argument? People in public don't give honest opinions, they give acceptable opinions.

Obviously complaints about "techs" aren't that common. Why, you ask? Because dealing with them isn't incredibly common or obvious, and those that are smart enough already know whatever minor thing there currently is will be long gone when the big 3DS Amiibo/Wii U online features/Mewtwo update rolls around. If SSB4 was just Melee online, you'd see rampant complaining.

I think you just enjoy complaining; I can't roll cancel grab, but I don't care if someone does it to me and lots of people don't even forget it's there (myself included; I totally forgot that was a thing until you brought it up, and I still won't use it because it's not something I care enough about to integrate into my playstyle).
It's part of the game and I either find a way around it or watch their patterns to throw out a move to intercept them because the grab armor is now gone.
Why move when I can just stand there and counter/dodge any incoming attacks?
Why even do that when I can just camp my opponent for 5 minutes?
You mistake decent play for optimal play; none of that bullcrap is necessary to win a match, regardless of whether someone does it to you or not.
So long as your spacing and reads are better (and your character can't fall prey to some stupid 0-death or 0-50%+ combo), chances are that you'll win.
Out of over 1k matches against players of varying skill, some rivaling my own, there was only one person I could not beat with Dedede (except one match), and that's not because he used roll cancel grabs or used some super secret why-can't-I-do-this move, he freaking outplayed me, and that's what matters.
You keep acting like it gives you some godly boost when, in reality, it accentuates your play rather than outright improves it.
You gotta get a read before you blindly go in with a roll cancel grab, and the same goes for a drillshine in Melee -- I thought it was the craziest thing until I played against people with good spacing and I never even got to land a drillshine.

Also...
I think we should all stop putting words into peoples' mouths; you can't say what the "average person" thinks because there will always be exceptions, not to mention you can bend it almost any way you want to.

 

[LancerStaff]

I do believe they were being entirely honest with me. Anyone who, putting forward the proper disposition of charity and genuine interest infects others with honesty and peace. There were no high tensions, and everyone I spoke to was completely at ease. I was able to contradict others and discuss things with serenity. There were, as I said, people who disagreed with me, but what I mean when I say they were open to me is that we had calm and friendly discussions ABOUT the things we disagreed on with no double meanings or fronts to our words, therefore little or no thought of sparking a 'real world' argument even crossed their mind. Either they're all expert liars with supreme control of the self, they are all subconsciously deluding themselves with no noticable outward signs, or you can trust in my estimation of their intentions and dispositions. Those release events were probably the best I've done at honest listening and honest speaking in my life, and I was received well. Say I rolled a natural 20 on my diplomacy and sense motive checks?

You have adopted the same view that Sakurai has. He wrongly thinks that designing for the casual and hardcore are mutually exclusive.

That time is now. It is not a necessary, natural, inevitable, or however you wish to put it, thing that designing with a high skill ceiling then excludes people with a low skill from enjoying the game. Therefore, it cannot be said that tech, or ATs whatsoever are always at fault for turning people away simply because their opponent uses them. With proper skill based matchmaking, one can easily segregate the casual from the hardcore to the extent that the lower are not so thoroughly trounced as to give up completely. It is the fault, then, of one for not designing the solution to this problem, rather than creating the problem through adding depth of gameplay, which is the most noble of gameplay elements.

You seem to have a few underlying assumptions as to these hypothetical complainers. First, that they would be prideful enough to think them better than they are, enough so that they would complain unjustly. Second, that they would be playing a game mode which makes the real gaps between the players and the ability to manipulate the mechanics more apparent, perhaps For Glory 1v1. Thirdly that they would be more or less accurate and honest in their appraisal of the strength of another. Fourth, that they would see that it is the mechanic itself that helps improve the power of the opponent. Fifth, that they view the mechanic itself as the cause of the perceived (and fictitious) injustice of their loss, rather than blaming characters, stages, items, the other player, or some other inconvenience.
Now, surely not all of these are true for your hypothetical complainer, but I thought I'd try to cover all the bases. Regardless, denying a number of these combinations, or even say five by itself given its scope, are tall orders for the hypothetical complainers.

Only the most prideful or arrogant of individuals both have a real, deep analysis of their failure, and still refuse to acknowledge that it is their fault for not learning that which is necessary to advance in skill. They are the slothful that demand everything be brought down to their level. They are the wrathful whose anger is petty. These people are rare, and they should not be catered to. They are the only ones relevant to your complaints about the removal of techs.

For everyone else, it proves nothing much, since if they honestly assess their play they would be far better off with a lodestar, a canon, a measuring rod, a saint, who is superior to them to fight against, since thereby they might see what the other person is doing right rather than what they are doing wrong.
Like KoM said, it doesn't matter that casual threads have much higher post counts or activity. Actually, I'd say that distinguishing a 'casual' thread from a hardcore thread is meaningless, since there may be hardcore players who post often in a casual thread (see, Project M Social Thread). Regardless, the majority of people on Smashboards enjoy seeing competitive matches every once in a while, or talking about these things. It should be obvious from the 'vocal casual minority' which you yourself talked about earlier, since we get in to so many arguments about these things.

Edit 2: I'm a little confused now, this is interesting. If the vocal casuals are a minority, and we've established that the straight casuals have little or no contact with them, then how can they ruin the casual experience? or if that's the only problem, and granting that they do get 'enough' contact with them, however we'd quantify that (perhaps as losing sales?), then isn't Lancerstaff just one such vocal casual? The argument he brought up is pointing at himself saying "I am the problem, but everyone should bow to me so I don't feel like being a problem any more"?

Even if they were all truthful, it does not mean those that are against "techs" do not exist.

It's wrong to want the game to solely be what was intentional? Laughable. Sakurai does not believe it's impossible to make a game that works for both sides, and nether do I. Even within competitive SSB4 players that want more "tech skill" are in a minority. The game works excellently for both casual and hardcore players and there's enough of a learning curve within the game already. Or yaknow, Kid Icarus, which has an absolutely giant gap between newbies and pros like myself. (Newbies run around with weapons that not only harms them more for a death then a pro's, pros weapons literally OHKO anything not focused on defense while noobs need like five strong hits. Matches ending in seconds is pretty common.) You see, there's typically not much complaining when the tools to do well are lain out in front of you first-thing.

Noticeable skill-based matchmaking will never be a thing in SSB. Sakurai is the reason behind that. You see, he doesn't want playing online to be a competition. It makes little difference if he does in this scenario as there will always be casual and hardcore players in direct contact.

Do you really think there'd be no complaints if we wound up with something like Melee again? Some players have enough trouble learning how to recover, even. We don't need to have more complicated basics then what we have, and anything past the basics is largely fluff. What I don't think you understand is that "techs" can do as much harm as they do good. Like hitstun canceling. I am not talking about people complaining about techs now, I'm talking about if we had as many as people such as yourself ask for.

Another reason people are against glitches is because it changes the fundamental play of their game. Complaints during Melee's era were slim because individual groups were largely separate. Compare Mario Kart Double Dash and DS. DD and DS both had snaking in much the same way, but I'd guess you hadn't even known DD had significant snaking if at all until I just told you now. But yet in DS people suddenly complain? Online, of course. Do you really think L-canceling and Wavedashing would go unnoticed with online? Of course not. If you were a game developer, would you risk the complaining or just target the majority?

Vocal casuals, or rather players in general, are a minority in a game where "techs" are approaching nonexistence, yes. They have direct contact with "normal" casuals with the internet. Reviews and forum chatter from places like Smashboards to Miiverse. Yaknow, the same way complaints about MKDS got around.

If I call a game stupid when it actually is stupid, not exactly my fault for making it lose out on sales, heh. Shoulda made a game I liked.

I think you just enjoy complaining; I can't roll cancel grab, but I don't care if someone does it to me and lots of people don't even forget it's there (myself included; I totally forgot that was a thing until you brought it up, and I still won't use it because it's not something I care enough about to integrate into my playstyle).
It's part of the game and I either find a way around it or watch their patterns to throw out a move to intercept them because the grab armor is now gone.
Why move when I can just stand there and counter/dodge any incoming attacks?
Why even do that when I can just camp my opponent for 5 minutes?
You mistake decent play for optimal play; none of that bullcrap is necessary to win a match, regardless of whether someone does it to you or not.
So long as your spacing and reads are better (and your character can't fall prey to some stupid 0-death or 0-50%+ combo), chances are that you'll win.
Out of over 1k matches against players of varying skill, some rivaling my own, there was only one person I could not beat with Dedede (except one match), and that's not because he used roll cancel grabs or used some super secret why-can't-I-do-this move, he freaking outplayed me, and that's what matters.
You keep acting like it gives you some godly boost when, in reality, it accentuates your play rather than outright improves it.
You gotta get a read before you blindly go in with a roll cancel grab, and the same goes for a drillshine in Melee -- I thought it was the craziest thing until I played against people with good spacing and I never even got to land a drillshine.

Also...
I think we should all stop putting words into peoples' mouths; you can't say what the "average person" thinks because there will always be exceptions, not to mention you can bend it almost any way you want to.

I can roll cancel grab, but don't because it offers Pit no perceivable advantage. I won't complain if my opponent uses it because I'm a firm believer in playing to win. If I don't like a mechanic, I'll complain to those that can actually change it or to those asking my opinion. Here, I'm arguing the "needs to" in the topic title.

Two players of equal skill and the same character. Is it necessary now? If you fear losing to somebody once the "techs" are gone, practice your fundamentals instead. In fact, these "techs" are largely a diversion. They're just another thing you have to figure out and it just takes away from practicing said fundamentals. Removing them before people have a chance to use them means they have to practice the core game instead.