An essay on why and how Nintendo/Sora needs to embrace advanced techniques

[smashbroskilla]

There is an "in group" for you and everyone you hung out with would confirm your beliefs. If they went to tournaments (and actually came back) then they were like the people here who want it back, but they do not represent the majority. This doesn't mean it wasn't dumb.
The other thing you have to understand is this game is online. Why do you think snaking was a problem in Mario Kart DS but not Double Dash. It was in both games. The issue was it was online. And the issue in Smash was the games were going online. To the majority of people, it looked like cheating. And they'd have a point. It's not how the game was designed and balanced. It was foreign. People didn't want to have to learn an obtuse maneuver to be able to play and enjoy online. These things ruin online and it's why Snaking has been gone since Mario Kart DS. Case in point, it affects everyone.

This game being online or not has nothing to do with either of the points we're both trying to make. I didn't prove any point for you either. Who's this majority of people you speak of? If this majority of casuals you speak of that would rage at "cheating" methods they would never end up playing the cheaters right? Only try hards and elitists go to tournaments, so a casual player could still give two sh*ts about some guy spending 10 hours at a gaming center playing smash wavedashing his little heart out.

I'll tell you what the problem is. The problem is that there's a group of people that can't handle the amount of inputs it takes to properly wavedash consistently and L cancel. Due to their own inability to perform such techniques these people carry a disdained attitude towards the people who can perform such inputs. There's a group of people who can do it and there's a group that can't. Ironically enough the people who can do these "cheating" methods are not mad at the people who can't do them but the people that can't do them sure do carry a lot of salt around these forums.

"But little 8 year old Johnny will never stand a chance against experienced try hards online." That's life dude. Not everyone wins and gets a trophy. And if the for glory system actually works little Johnny shouldn't face more than a few of these "cheaters" if the matchmaking system works. Like I said getting back to my original statement and point that caters to even the casuals. It would be nice if there was an option to turn on and off such techniques. It would not cause a rift in the world. Let the people set up their own lobbies in for glory mode however which they see fit. It would never happen but the question asked is why not? That's all I'm going to say about this topic I feel I already went into depth 3 times stating my same point and people keep quoting me making a point to something I never said or doesn't exist in this silly forum debate.

 

[Etc_Guy]

This game being online or not has nothing to do with either of the points we're both trying to make. I didn't prove any point for you either. Who's this majority of people you speak of? If this majority of casuals you speak of that would rage at "cheating" methods they would never end up playing the cheaters right? Only try hards and elitists go to tournaments, so a casual player could still give two sh*ts about some guy spending 10 hours at a gaming center playing smash wavedashing his little heart out.

I'll tell you what the problem is. The problem is that there's a group of people that can't handle the amount of inputs it takes to properly wavedash consistently and L cancel. Due to their own inability to perform such techniques these people carry a disdained attitude towards the people who can perform such inputs. There's a group of people who can do it and there's a group that can't. Ironically enough the people who can do these "cheating" methods are not mad at the people who can't do them but the people that can't do them sure do carry a lot of salt around these forums.

"But little 8 year old Johnny will never stand a chance against experienced try hards online." That's life dude. Not everyone wins and gets a trophy. And if the for glory system actually works little Johnny shouldn't face more than a few of these "cheaters" if the matchmaking system works. Like I said getting back to my original statement and point that caters to even the casuals. It would be nice if there was an option to turn on and off such techniques. It would not cause a rift in the world. Let the people set up their own lobbies in for glory mode however which they see fit. It would never happen but the question asked is why not? That's all I'm going to say about this topic I feel I already went into depth 3 times stating my same point and people keep quoting me making a point to something I never said or doesn't exist in this silly forum debate.

1: Don't be pro about things you don't know about. 2: Nintendo could be jokers and give and give them 's and 's wave-dash from melee yet and still have their slides. Do you want to be low tier?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This game being online or not has nothing to do with either of the points we're both trying to make. I didn't prove any point for you either. Who's this majority of people you speak of? If this majority of casuals you speak of that would rage at "cheating" methods they would never end up playing the cheaters right? Only try hards and elitists go to tournaments, so a casual player could still give two sh*ts about some guy spending 10 hours at a gaming center playing smash wavedashing his little heart out.

I'll tell you what the problem is. The problem is that there's a group of people that can't handle the amount of inputs it takes to properly wavedash consistently and L cancel. Due to their own inability to perform such techniques these people carry a disdained attitude towards the people who can perform such inputs. There's a group of people who can do it and there's a group that can't. Ironically enough the people who can do these "cheating" methods are not mad at the people who can't do them but the people that can't do them sure do carry a lot of salt around these forums.

"But little 8 year old Johnny will never stand a chance against experienced try hards online." That's life dude. Not everyone wins and gets a trophy. And if the for glory system actually works little Johnny shouldn't face more than a few of these "cheaters" if the matchmaking system works. Like I said getting back to my original statement and point that caters to even the casuals. It would be nice if there was an option to turn on and off such techniques. It would not cause a rift in the world. Let the people set up their own lobbies in for glory mode however which they see fit. It would never happen but the question asked is why not? That's all I'm going to say about this topic I feel I already went into depth 3 times stating my same point and people keep quoting me making a point to something I never said or doesn't exist in this silly forum debate.

To be fair, L-Cancelling does have its issues(namely the fact that if you don't do it, you are at a severe disadvantage). Wavedashing has a way less effect on the series.

But this is also true that people are not blaming themselves for losing and constantly their non-desire to practice against these techs or to practice them to win. This is more laziness than actual legitimate points. Even with L-Cancelling and Wavedashing gone(and they made a difference, while most other Techs did not so much), people still complain about techs when they rarely severely affect a match. Remember, no tech will win you a game without the skill to use it. They lost solely because of skill and that's it. There is zero cheating going on as well. The only techs banned are actually legitimately game-breaking, not just "really good", and those are true glitches. L-Cancelling isn't even advanced. It's barely a medium skill based one. Between Beginner and Advanced, and isn't comparable to how good any Advanced one is, nor is it anywhere near hard to pull off consistently. You just simply practice with your character and learn the timing, and do it more often in the heat of battle. This is highly easy to work with. Wavedashing doesn't work with all, which is why it has a bigger effect on the game. L-Cancelling benefits everyone, and there's no reason not to do it(besides at low end tourneys to temporarily give your opponent a false sense of security? But how many can even notice when you L-Cancel anyway?).

That said, techs are fine, and only increase options. Severely broken ones made a beyond huge difference(which almost none do, however, so their removal didn't do much to make a difference. It's still just skill).

As for this whole elitism thing? It's not related to competitive play at all. It's just people who refuse to respect that fact that people like to play it differently. And there has been almost zero competitive elitism in this topic, compared to casual elitism. Also, I disagree with comparing LancerStaff to Sakurai. Sakurai actually does not have an elitist mindset and respects other play styles(with all due respect to you LancerStaff, you are being extremely hostile and refuse to let us enjoy the game outside of FFA's. That's not cool, man. I like both, and even if I didn't like casual play, I'd still respect those that do. Why can you not seriously accept that our playstyle is completely legitimate? The game is fun in multiple ways and designed to give us the options to remove certain things to create a different overall style. It was always designed to allow competitive play, even in Brawl, which had the least amount of options). He outright made many techs available purposely(see: Gliding and L-Cancelling) and intended to keep at least one in(Wavedashing). While some techs are simply glitches/exploits, their gameplay impact is not that high. I must note again that they're worthless without the skill required to use them. They will not win you jack if you suck at 'em. Every player who won using them put in tons of practice to get it right and only one through true skill at best. And they'll still win without them. They just balance out the game a bit more. Movement options make slow characters able to approach a little better. Say, Ganondorf. When fighting a Samus, he's effed on any stage outside of Omega. If slower characters has usable options(AT's or otherwise) to get around faster, which the faster characters or those with constant pressure projectiles(like Samus) could not perform as well, it's closed the tier gaps and balance the game. In the end, it does come down to skill, but if you have zero approach options, you are at too much of a disadvantage which means that no amount of "skill" will help if there's no actual option there instead.

This is why I support AT's, to increase options to further balance the game. They're irrelevant in casual play, and that's fine. They are not in competitive play and further balance the game, and that's fine too. Since both are legitimate playstyles(and Smash 4 was designed to be balanced more around competitive play too than the previous games. Melee was more of a mistake, this was outright intentional. That's why Sakurai hired Bamco in the first place, to properly balance it for everyone), appealing to all kinds of players is more admirable. Also, with no more balance patches intended, other AT's that show up are unlikely to leave, so at least we can still evolve. We need more stuff to further evolve the game otherwise it stagnates badly. Brawl did not because it still had AT's overall, and enough unique playstyles to keep people interested. It did die down earlier than Melee due to its extreme character inbalance(Meta Knight and Ganondorf are the epitome of terrible design. Now they're both desirable in 4, to a large degree. Nobody is severely bad anymore, which is nice).

 

[smashbroskilla]

As for this whole elitism thing? It's not related to competitive play at all. It's just people who refuse to respect that fact that people like to play it differently.

You said quite a bit and I'm not going to quote it all but I'll respond to this. I don't have any disrespect for people who want to play it differently at all and in fact I agree with you. If people want to wavedash and L cancel who cares? Let them play the game they want to play it. Let casuals play it the way they want to play it. Why does the casual forum poster care so much about it who will never attend a tournament? That's what blows my mind.

In your opinion hyperfalcon would you not like smash 4 if there was an option to turn wavedashing and L cancelling on and off? Would the community be up in arms over such an option and why?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You said quite a bit and I'm not going to quote it all but I'll respond to this. I don't have any disrespect for people who want to play it differently at all and in fact I agree with you. If people want to wavedash and L cancel who cares? Let them play the game they want to play it. Let casuals play it the way they want to play it. Why does the casual forum poster care so much about it who will never attend a tournament? That's what blows my mind.

With online, casual players are affected by AT's. Also, as I said before, both of those are not necessarily healthy. L-Cancelling is all risk and pure reward, but there's no inbetween. I like the move, but it was not healthy even so. Wavedashing needs to affect all heavily, otherwise it broadens the tier gaps, which is an issue during Melee. Many new AT's are a bit better due to the fact they affect everyone in a reasonable manner.

To further answer your question, a casual playing means you're just playing for fun and skill is not important. They want to win without it(this applies to some. I cannot answer this accurately since I'm somewhat a competitive player, although I mostly play casually). It depends the player. Everybody has different answers. Some think it's cheating(even though it's nothing more than skill). This isn't like Snaking, which is legitimately broken. All of these are beyond weak in comparison and do not secure you wins by any easy means. The ones who win while using it practiced severely. Also, Snaking is relatively easy to pull off anyway. I barely practice it and can still do it efficiently to this day. It's too easy for too much reward. It still requires actual real practice, mind you, but it depends the player. I find AT's easy to do once I understand them. I'm quick to adjust to this.

In your opinion hyperfalcon would you not like smash 4 if there was an option to turn wavedashing and L cancelling on and off? Would the community be up in arms over such an option and why?

I like the moves, but they do kind of affect the balance of the game. Auto-L-Cancel was a bit better, and if there was a reward for failing, although a less good one than no or half lag, it'd be fine to return. Wavedashing just won't work without the idea that everyone that needs it(slower guys) can benefit from it. However, only mostly super speedy characters who didn't need it gets to use it. Its removal was not a bad thing here.

Keep in mind neither were balanced compared to other techs, but they were useless without tons of skill anyway. That played the biggest role in the end. L-Cancelling does help out combos a bit, notably. Also, since an Advanced Tech is not relatively easy to pull off(Ukemis/Techs are and are a beginner's tech), I don't think any have been in all games. I do not remember when DACUS first showed up, though.

 

[S_B]

I'm not exactly a competitive player (with my tournament winnings totaling $50), but I prefer that a game has massively deep fundamentals in lieu of "advanced techniques" that require unusual, rapid inputs and whatnot.

 

[PCHU]

I'm not exactly a competitive player (with my tournament winnings totaling $50), but I prefer that a game has massively deep fundamentals in lieu of "advanced techniques" that require unusual, rapid inputs and whatnot.

Most of what people (seem to) want expands upon the fundamentals in place and make for a more intricate game.
And these inputs, although unusual at first, actually make sense -- you jump and airdodge into the ground to initiate a slide, and I'd say L-canceling seems pretty natural considering almost everyone who I fought in Brawl would want to airdodge near the ground anyway to land safely.

It really isn't all that bad if you don't view it as a threat to you; should someone else complain that I'm able to get gordos to stick to the wall as an edgeguard and they can't despite it relying on positioning and executing a basic input?
Should I complain that a Wario player knows that using their bike gives them an extra jump?
What about if someone starts foxtrotting for positioning?
It's accentuated style.
I almost can't tell players apart now unless they're outright bad because hardly anyone's really able to play in a distinguishable style; you're encouraged to do the same combos over and over again because they're the only ones that actually work.
I thought I was kinda cool with my gordo play, but then I found out that it's just optimal because I met a Dedede with similar skill that did most of the stuff I did, except I punish with dash attack and hardly anyone else does.

Also, I don't think anyone here has had the unpleasant experience of trying to combo into CS1 Hazama's Astral; I think I only got that thing to work once or twice because its input was a freaking mobius.
Ever tried doing a 720 from a jab? From idle stance?
How about actually having the foresight to punish someone with a 1080 input + 3 buttons?
The world's a cruel place; Smash, even at the peak of Melee/PM technicality, is much more forgiving.

 

[smashbroskilla]

I like the moves, but they do kind of affect the balance of the game. Auto-L-Cancel was a bit better, and if there was a reward for failing, although a less good one than no or half lag, it'd be fine to return. Wavedashing just won't work without the idea that everyone that needs it(slower guys) can benefit from it. However, only mostly super speedy characters who didn't need it gets to use it. Its removal was not a bad thing here.

Keep in mind neither were balanced compared to other techs, but they were useless without tons of skill anyway. That played the biggest role in the end. L-Cancelling does help out combos a bit, notably. Also, since an Advanced Tech is not relatively easy to pull off(Ukemis/Techs are and are a beginner's tech), I don't think any have been in all games. I do not remember when DACUS first showed up, though.

In your opinion hyperfalcon would you not like smash 4 if there was an option to turn wavedashing and L cancelling on and off?

 

[Quillion]

Why are people constantly ignoring my suggestion to turn the exploits into real mechanics instead of removing them or keeping them as "intentional glitches" like PM?

 

[Etc_Guy]

Why are people constantly ignoring my suggestion to turn the exploits into real mechanics instead of removing them or keeping them as "intentional glitches" like PM?

Breaking a balanced game like Brawl. (Except , we all hate him in that game.)

 

[Quillion]

Breaking a balanced game like Brawl. (Except , we all hate him in that game.)

But Brawl isn't balanced even without Meta Knight. You won't see Mario beat Olimar; you won't see Ganondorf beat Falco; you won't see Link beat Wario...

But I'm getting off topic. Turning the exploits into real move properties would add a layer of freedom that both casual and competitive players would appreciate. Everyone wins!

 

[Etc_Guy]

But Brawl isn't balanced even without Meta Knight. You won't see Mario beat Olimar; you won't see Ganondorf beat Falco; you won't see Link beat Wario...

But I'm getting off topic. Turning the exploits into real move properties would add a layer of freedom that both casual and competitive players would appreciate. Everyone wins!

Brawl is more balanced than Melee. Breaking an already broken game is okay, just look at the pajinko machine from Sunshine. But why break a perfect game like Smash 4? That's exactly like asking Miamoto to ruin Galaxy by adding in Sunshine's physics engine with no repairs.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Brawl is more balanced than Melee. Breaking an already broken game is okay, just look at the pajinko machine from Sunshine. But why break a perfect game like Smash 4? That's exactly like asking Miamoto to ruin Galaxy by adding in Sunshine's physics engine with no repairs.

No it isn't. There's tons more viable Melee characters than in Brawl, more balanced stages options, enough techs for everyone to do well... Brawl has almost zero real balance. It's awful in that regard. Melee and 64 were relatively balanced character-wise, but still had some major gaps. Brawl had severe gaps that made it unbearable as a competitive game. The reason Melee stands the test of time far better is because even weaker characters has enough options to give them leeway to further remove some of the tier gaps.

In your opinion hyperfalcon would you not like smash 4 if there was an option to turn wavedashing and L cancelling on and off?

I would like it just fine. I would almost always have it off however for Tourneys since it neither balance the game if we go by their Melee versions specifically(well, obviously Wavedashing is Melee only). Here's the thing; Wavedashing does not work out well since it affects characters well if they're already fast. If you're slow, you're almost always crap with it. This doesn't help. L-Cancelling is an arbitrary limitation and the risk can destroy you, while the actual timing can be annoying to get at first. It affects everyone equally, however, but could be improved(say you take less damage and knockback if you slightly screw up the input? Not much less, of course). If Wavedashing can be made specific to characters on how well they do based directly upon their overall speed, it'd even out the game and make it more playable. It's not a straight answer here. I might leave Wavedashing on if it's based upon the characters and balanced well enough. Since neither can seriously be cheating(you're working hard and using skill to pull it off. That's not seriously cheating, nor does either break the game, so...)

Why are people constantly ignoring my suggestion to turn the exploits into real mechanics instead of removing them or keeping them as "intentional glitches" like PM?

I don't think people are, and outside of those who don't want to use AT's(for whatever reason), I haven't seen a single objection. I think this is a terrific idea and fixes the game up. Sadly, we may not see it since Sakurai just said he was done with balance patches. Maybe hacking might help, as Smash 4 is highly balanced. 64 and Melee are close behind, with Brawl in dead last(but Sakurai didn't really try to balance that game anyway. It was made for fun, and he only at best tried to remove options).

I'd like to note something of why he made Brawl like that; The accessability factor was increased not to "hurt competitive players", but because he hates elitism and wanted to bring the players together specifically to stop the dumb arguing that goes on. It went the opposite however, which is sad. Admirable goal, poor turnout. The fact he wants everyone to be happy with how they play is great, though. Unfortunately, elitists refuse to let this happen and are the ultimate detriment to this series. And it's both an issue with Competitive and Casual players alike. Although I've seen far more Casual myself that were highly elitist. Doesn't mean it's not an issue among both groups, though. Kill that problem, and it doesn't matter how the game turns out; It'll be either liked by almost everyone or disliked. Bringing people together and to respect one another is a key thing in improving this series' growth. AT's won't make a difference here, and didn't actually have a serious effect on turning people away during Melee. The game was severely accessible. What many just don't realize is the reason they were turned away was from jerks who put people down or elitism. In the end, AT's won't matter because skill is the true winner in competitive tourneys. Luck plays next to no role, so...

 

[SmashChu]

This game being online or not has nothing to do with either of the points we're both trying to make. I didn't prove any point for you either. Who's this majority of people you speak of? If this majority of casuals you speak of that would rage at "cheating" methods they would never end up playing the cheaters right? Only try hards and elitists go to tournaments, so a casual player could still give two sh*ts about some guy spending 10 hours at a gaming center playing smash wavedashing his little heart out.

What are you even rambling about. I feel like you are twisting yourself in a prezle to argue against my point. Let me break it down for you
1)You experience was based on interaction with like minded people. Anecdotal evidence is the worst kind
2)Glitches and exploits in a game affect everyone in an online setting because everyone is playing online.

I'll tell you what the problem is. The problem is that there's a group of people that can't handle the amount of inputs it takes to properly wavedash consistently and L cancel. Due to their own inability to perform such techniques these people carry a disdained attitude towards the people who can perform such inputs. There's a group of people who can do it and there's a group that can't. Ironically enough the people who can do these "cheating" methods are not mad at the people who can't do them but the people that can't do them sure do carry a lot of salt around these forums.

"But little 8 year old Johnny will never stand a chance against experienced try hards online." That's life dude. Not everyone wins and gets a trophy. And if the for glory system actually works little Johnny shouldn't face more than a few of these "cheaters" if the matchmaking system works. Like I said getting back to my original statement and point that caters to even the casuals. It would be nice if there was an option to turn on and off such techniques. It would not cause a rift in the world. Let the people set up their own lobbies in for glory mode however which they see fit. It would never happen but the question asked is why not? That's all I'm going to say about this topic I feel I already went into depth 3 times stating my same point and people keep quoting me making a point to something I never said or doesn't exist in this silly forum debate.

Did you ever stop and think the reason they don't like Wavedashing or L-canceling is because they don't want to learn the obtuse timing to perform these? People do more than play videogames and the people who practice these technique are not the norm. Most people don't have time to dedicate to a video game. They want to relax and enjoy a match. Thing like wavedashing and l-canceling add barriers that make the game harder and don't need to be there in the first place. People don't want to deal with these. And if people like you get upset because their timesink isn't as good as it was before, well, that's life.

 

[Roko Jono]

Did you ever stop and think the reason they don't like Wavedashing or L-canceling is because they don't want to learn the obtuse timing to perform these? People do more than play videogames and the people who practice these technique are not the norm. Most people don't have time to dedicate to a video game. They want to relax and enjoy a match. Thing like wavedashing and l-canceling add barriers that make the game harder and don't need to be there in the first place. People don't want to deal with these. And if people like you get upset because their timesink isn't as good as it was before, well, that's life.

You can enjoy a good match with friends easily without any techniques. If you want to go online and play against strangers and constantly win then no matter the skill barrier a game has, the people who put more time and practice will kick your ass. So then, if you are one of these people who want to enjoy a match with friends who don't go hardcore in a game, why the hell would it matter if there at AT's. If you wanna get good at a game without putting in time, tough luck because you're not going to succeed in ANY COMPETITIVE GAME.

If you like to play the game for fun and don't moan about anything, good for you, I'm glad you are enjoying the game because there's so many ways to enjoy it. If you want to get competitive and complain about crap you have to learn to do because you obviously wanna get good without practice... what the hell? There are games out there that take less skill and more brain, if that's what you're looking for, then there they are.

 

[LancerStaff]

There are games out there that take less skill and more brain, if that's what you're looking for, then there they are.

Smash was designed to be that game. Yaknow, that's why the most complex (and intentional) imputs are ← to →Z.

 

[Roko Jono]

Smash was designed to be that game. Yaknow, that's why the most complex (and intentional) imputs are ← to →Z.

The design may have been that way, the product can be different

 

[LancerStaff]

The design may have been that way, the product can be different

The product can be fixed. And it has.

 

[J1NG]

If Sakurai wants to make the next Smash into a deliberate, competitively geared game, great. If he then decides to make one that appeals to players of tic-tac-toe, also great. Nowadays, Smash games don't always come from Sakurai, and that's even better for players who want more variety.
All he does is share his visions of games with us. Just be thankful for what we have, and be happy.

 

[SmashChu]

You can enjoy a good match with friends easily without any techniques. If you want to go online and play against strangers and constantly win then no matter the skill barrier a game has, the people who put more time and practice will kick your ***. So then, if you are one of these people who want to enjoy a match with friends who don't go hardcore in a game, why the hell would it matter if there at AT's. If you wanna get good at a game without putting in time, tough luck because you're not going to succeed in ANY COMPETITIVE GAME.

If you like to play the game for fun and don't moan about anything, good for you, I'm glad you are enjoying the game because there's so many ways to enjoy it. If you want to get competitive and complain about crap you have to learn to do because you obviously wanna get good without practice... what the hell? There are games out there that take less skill and more brain, if that's what you're looking for, then there they are.

So what you're saying is that online is only for people who put too much time into the game and everyone else can go fly a kite.
I don't know what the big deal is with having a game be open. I don't see why the controls have to be bull****. i mean, wasn't the whole point of Smash to be simple and easy to pick up. Why do we need these silly mechanics to make a small minority happen. And that's really the point. The issue with wavedashing is it's not conductive to the average player. Everyone has tried to say it doesn't affect these people but it does because online exist. It seems the solution is to not care and tell them "don't play online if you don't want to play the game for 40 hours a week." Clearly it does affect people. Just some can't see beyond their short sided interest.

 

[PCHU]

So what you're saying is that online is only for people who put too much time into the game and everyone else can go fly a kite.
I don't know what the big deal is with having a game be open. I don't see why the controls have to be bull****. i mean, wasn't the whole point of Smash to be simple and easy to pick up. Why do we need these silly mechanics to make a small minority happen. And that's really the point. The issue with wavedashing is it's not conductive to the average player. Everyone has tried to say it doesn't affect these people but it does because online exist. It seems the solution is to not care and tell them "don't play online if you don't want to play the game for 40 hours a week." Clearly it does affect people. Just some can't see beyond their short sided interest.

Well, considering this perfect pivot thing is pretty much just as hard as the wavedash/moonwalking and just as useful (if not more useful due to the amount of frames you can act out of it), I kinda think a lot of people are getting mad over nothing.
And I'd like to say that a lot of casuals have equally short-sighted interest: Why bring down the whole game without at least making said mechanics simpler, or introducing interesting alternatives?
Why not just cut down landing lag instead of mapping a cut to a button (even though people naturally want to press shield when landing anyway)?
Why is it okay for reverse grabbing to be a thing but crouch cancel dash can't be a thing?
Every character isn't Fox or Falco, and I think a lot of people are too blinded by their ignorance to notice; it's not like drillshine infinites are necessary, and I wholly understand that their potential is way above everyone else, but it's not because of techs, it's because of relatively poor balance choices in giving them far too much freedom/leeway (the fact that shine can be jump canceled, Falco's Dair being active for so long, etc), much like some choices I'm seeing again in Smash 4, but nobody complains because you get called a casual if you do, not to mention the absence of techs influences you to believe that it's you who fails as a player rather than understanding or even considering some things aren't well balanced.

The controls have NEVER been tough to learn; if you play a tough character, expect your inputs to be more demanding.
This is your choice as a player; nobody's forcing you to learn QAC combos or spindash gimmicks.
I don't even have to make use of Fox's crazier techs because of how good he is on his own (same goes for Sheik; look at Borp), but I choose to because I enjoy having more control over my character as well as having more options are other characters' gimmicks.
Why would I complain that someone who's practiced the game way more than me beat me?
There really, really aren't that many people out there who are really like that, people just care to pander to the "silent majority" because it sounds like a plausible thing and encourages the game to treat us all like children, hence almost every character feeling super easy to pick up now (compare Brawl Ness to Smash 4 Ness).

I know the game is the way it is and no amount of logic or reasoning is gonna change it, but I feel that the more people take the side of these players who complain about things being too hard to learn, the more that kind of attitude spreads and the less we'll see any real intricacy in games.
I'm all for equality, but if your primary concern is eliminating an incentive to play the game more, there's a bit of an issue.
Most of the people online have only put up a solid fight if they rain projectiles on me and camp me the whole match; there have been maybe 5 truly solid players that I've had the pleasure to play against, but regardless of how much we adapted to each other, it'd always fall back on the same bullcrap we've been doing every other match because the game won't let us do anything else without slapping us in the face with an airdodge or an almost instantaneous nair out of hitstun.
I almost wish people would stop calling the stuff advanced because the second you say advanced, everyone plugs their ears and talks about how bad and stupid it all is.
Usmashing out of dash is a tech, but I bet you a good 70% of the people that do it don't consider it a tech because it "feels natural", like something you should be able to do, when in reality, it's possible because you cancel your jump animation, something some may call "glitchy" or "unnatural", but they don't because it's really freaking simple like the rest of the game.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, considering this perfect pivot thing is pretty much just as hard as the wavedash/moonwalking and just as useful (if not more useful due to the amount of frames you can act out of it), I kinda think a lot of people are getting mad over nothing.
And I'd like to say that a lot of casuals have equally short-sighted interest: Why bring down the whole game without at least making said mechanics simpler, or introducing interesting alternatives?
Why not just cut down landing lag instead of mapping a cut to a button (even though people naturally want to press shield when landing anyway)?
Why is it okay for reverse grabbing to be a thing but crouch cancel dash can't be a thing?
Every character isn't Fox or Falco, and I think a lot of people are too blinded by their ignorance to notice; it's not like drillshine infinites are necessary, and I wholly understand that their potential is way above everyone else, but it's not because of techs, it's because of relatively poor balance choices in giving them far too much freedom/leeway (the fact that shine can be jump canceled, Falco's Dair being active for so long, etc), much like some choices I'm seeing again in Smash 4, but nobody complains because you get called a casual if you do, not to mention the absence of techs influences you to believe that it's you who fails as a player rather than understanding or even considering some things aren't well balanced.

The controls have NEVER been tough to learn; if you play a tough character, expect your inputs to be more demanding.
This is your choice as a player; nobody's forcing you to learn QAC combos or spindash gimmicks.
I don't even have to make use of Fox's crazier techs because of how good he is on his own (same goes for Sheik; look at Borp), but I choose to because I enjoy having more control over my character as well as having more options are other characters' gimmicks.
Why would I complain that someone who's practiced the game way more than me beat me?
There really, really aren't that many people out there who are really like that, people just care to pander to the "silent majority" because it sounds like a plausible thing and encourages the game to treat us all like children, hence almost every character feeling super easy to pick up now (compare Brawl Ness to Smash 4 Ness).

I know the game is the way it is and no amount of logic or reasoning is gonna change it, but I feel that the more people take the side of these players who complain about things being too hard to learn, the more that kind of attitude spreads and the less we'll see any real intricacy in games.
I'm all for equality, but if your primary concern is eliminating an incentive to play the game more, there's a bit of an issue.
Most of the people online have only put up a solid fight if they rain projectiles on me and camp me the whole match; there have been maybe 5 truly solid players that I've had the pleasure to play against, but regardless of how much we adapted to each other, it'd always fall back on the same bullcrap we've been doing every other match because the game won't let us do anything else without slapping us in the face with an airdodge or an almost instantaneous nair out of hitstun.
I almost wish people would stop calling the stuff advanced because the second you say advanced, everyone plugs their ears and talks about how bad and stupid it all is.
Usmashing out of dash is a tech, but I bet you a good 70% of the people that do it don't consider it a tech because it "feels natural", like something you should be able to do, when in reality, it's possible because you cancel your jump animation, something some may call "glitchy" or "unnatural", but they don't because it's really freaking simple like the rest of the game.

Casuals want to "bring down" the game the same way competitives do: They want a game more geared for their particular audience. They're not looking for something hard to learn or play, they're looking for something to just stick in and smash stuff. Speaking of which, your silly little pivot thingy is earning no points with the more casual players. Most everybody I know would rather have it flat out gone instead of dealing with it. Me, I'm learning it. It's just random at this point and not worth using in a real match because of how bad the screw-ups are. It's worse then tripping, that's what. It's no fun to deal with whatsoever. And it's been around for quite awhile too, since 64 I believe. Couldn't use it to attack with without a C-stick though.

Lel, L-canceling never was natural to anybody. Anybody decent wouldn't even try to shield that early. Cutting down the lag would just upset the balance. Do you want real character variety, do you want solely Melee's fragile speedsters on top again, or do you want everybody to practically play the same like with PM? Take your pick.

People praise small learning curves outside of bass-ackwards fighting games, remember? This is explicitly the un-fighting game designed to appeal to people who don't like what's wrong with fighting games. You're saying if the water is to hot, get out of the kitchen. I'm saying if it's too cold, get out of the pool. Smash is finally living up to it's design, one or two goofy things aside.

Oh, and people call Dashing Usmashes natural because they were natural up until recently. You didn't need to jump cancel to do 'em before the update. Yaknow, do you like it better now that it's harder, or when it was easier? Or how about aerials? Better harder or easier?

 

[Deap]

I am just gonna make this simple.

Sakurai besides of being a game designer, he is also a business man and you can tell that by how he refers to the game as a product instead of a game. Making a game that anyone can have fun with equals EVERYONE. If smash was intended to be competitive game from the beginning, they wouldn't expect much sales from this.

Lets asume smash sells 1 million copies, of all those copies sold not even 5% are from the "smash community" the smash community as a whole represents little to nothing when it comes to sales. If anyone brings the E3 invitational let me tell you that it was NOT nintendo trying to help the community they actually were smart enough and took advantage of it. It was a tournament to PROMOTE the game thats why the items where featured so Nintendo could show potential buyers what the game has to offer.
Keep in mind that Nintendo is a company after all, their goal is to be profitable and focusing on the "competitive scene" would be just stupid from a business standpoint.

 

[PCHU]

Casuals want to "bring down" the game the same way competitives do: They want a game more geared for their particular audience. They're not looking for something hard to learn or play, they're looking for something to just stick in and smash stuff. Speaking of which, your silly little pivot thingy is earning no points with the more casual players. Most everybody I know would rather have it flat out gone instead of dealing with it. Me, I'm learning it. It's just random at this point and not worth using in a real match because of how bad the screw-ups are. It's worse then tripping, that's what. It's no fun to deal with whatsoever. And it's been around for quite awhile too, since 64 I believe. Couldn't use it to attack with without a C-stick though.

Lel, L-canceling never was natural to anybody. Anybody decent wouldn't even try to shield that early. Cutting down the lag would just upset the balance. Do you want real character variety, do you want solely Melee's fragile speedsters on top again, or do you want everybody to practically play the same like with PM? Take your pick.

People praise small learning curves outside of bass-ackwards fighting games, remember? This is explicitly the un-fighting game designed to appeal to people who don't like what's wrong with fighting games. You're saying if the water is to hot, get out of the kitchen. I'm saying if it's too cold, get out of the pool. Smash is finally living up to it's design, one or two goofy things aside.

Oh, and people call Dashing Usmashes natural because they were natural up until recently. You didn't need to jump cancel to do 'em before the update. Yaknow, do you like it better now that it's harder, or when it was easier? Or how about aerials? Better harder or easier?

What update are you on about?
It was always natural, even back in Melee.
Perfect pivot worse than tripping?
Anybody decent wouldn't even try to shield that early? Anybody decent would've done the freaking l-cancel; I was referring to casuals in Brawl.
Fragile speedsters/"mobile projectiles" are already at the top again.
Smash isn't living up to jack; it's always been what it's meant to be to whoever played it in whatever way they wanted to.

I could almost take you seriously beforehand, but after >lel and the rest of this post, I can't.

 

[B33b3]

Glad I brought chips because there is an immense amount of salt in this thread, especially from these casuals. But seriously. Why do you people keep talking about L-Canceling being this hard to do AT? If you have an IQ higher than about 60, L-Canceling should be pretty damn easy to do. I mean it's literally, press the L or R button right as or before you hit the ground, like if you have functioning eyes you can learn to L-Cancel. At least Wavedashing was actually kinda hard to do. I sure as hell can't do it, but that's mostly because I don't care to practice it because I don't care to just practice things on my own, I do it as I play and eventually get the hang of it or just play without it. I've played against people that use all kinds of tech skills, while I don't and some of them out play me and some of them I just smoke because I play a very bull**** playstyle. You guys ***** and complain about how ATs are just so bad and hurt the game and blah blah blah, but I've yet to see a reason for not having them. Casual players will lose? Well holy ****, no way? Why should anyone care that a casual player will lose to an experienced player? Are you ****ing kidding me? So I guess Starcraft 2 should be rebalanced so that Bronze players can take on Grandmasters and pros because it's not fair that casuals lose and there is a skill gap exists or that one can exist at all. That's basically what I'm getting from this, let's just take any competitive game and complain that casual suck at them and something shoudl be done about the skill gap. Smash already has a low as **** skill floor, at least give us a moderately high skill ceiling for god's sake. But I mean REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A SECOND! People are literally arguing that CASUAL PLAYERS, let me say this again, C-A-S-U-A-L P-L-A-Y-E-R-S are not able to win against experienced players. Let me just bold and highlight this real quick. People are arguing that casual players are losing to experienced/competitive players. What a novel concept. FFS. I'm just gonna go kill myself irl real quick because there are people this dumb.

 

[smashbroskilla]

What are you even rambling about. I feel like you are twisting yourself in a prezle to argue against my point. Let me break it down for you
1)You experience was based on interaction with like minded people. Anecdotal evidence is the worst kind
2)Glitches and exploits in a game affect everyone in an online setting because everyone is playing online.

Oooo anecdotal huh? Is it thesaurus time? You keep dancing around the point that I've been making in this thread. I know when you change something online it effects everyone. You don't have to play certain people online. If you made it an option it would be your choice and the player would be aware of it. How else can I write this?

Did you ever stop and think the reason they don't like Wavedashing or L-canceling is because they don't want to learn the obtuse timing to perform these? People do more than play videogames and the people who practice these technique are not the norm. Most people don't have time to dedicate to a video game. They want to relax and enjoy a match. Thing like wavedashing and l-canceling add barriers that make the game harder and don't need to be there in the first place. People don't want to deal with these. And if people like you get upset because their timesink isn't as good as it was before, well, that's life.

Dude go get tattooed "casual king" on your forearm. I don't know what to tell you and you prove what I was saying earlier about the hate from people that have a hard time practicing these techniques. Who said I was upset about wavedashing or L cancelling not being in the game? I'm going to a smash 4 tournament this weekend. Obviously I'm not bent out of shape about it. I'll say this one more time and hopefully you get it. If there was an option in the game to turn wavedashing and L cancelling on and off it would have nothing to do with you. You could play your casual little heart out with your chin held high in the air not joining any lobbies that had such techniques and gloat to your online casual friends who practicing wave dashing is dumb.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Here's a fair trade-off for everyone...... You get wavedashing but tripping returns................ and it happens a lot. Sounds fair because if you don't stop whining the new director might give you both in return for breaking an already broken game.

Perfect pivoting is basically wavedashing but nerfed. I wouldn't complain about something you want if it's in the game.

 

[Roko Jono]

So what you're saying is that online is only for people who put too much time into the game and everyone else can go fly a kite.
I don't know what the big deal is with having a game be open. I don't see why the controls have to be bull****. i mean, wasn't the whole point of Smash to be simple and easy to pick up. Why do we need these silly mechanics to make a small minority happen. And that's really the point. The issue with wavedashing is it's not conductive to the average player. Everyone has tried to say it doesn't affect these people but it does because online exist. It seems the solution is to not care and tell them "don't play online if you don't want to play the game for 40 hours a week." Clearly it does affect people. Just some can't see beyond their short sided interest.

I didn't say you can't play online for fun. I'm not going to cover every scenario for every player. Look, if you want to win (like all the time) you're gonna have to put in the work. If you want to just play for fun, sometimes winning online, then you don't have to play 40 hours a week, not even every week. If someone doesn't care about playing at a high level, why care about how high level play is played? There are many people who aren't serious about smash who will just complain about high level play.

Nothing about high level play is conductive to the average player, 0 to death MvC combos, 1-frame links in SF4, dominant minion and lane contol in LoL (just trying to add something that isn't a fighter). Point being, if you're the average player and don't do your research, you won't get that far, and it isn't hard to look up a guide either. God forbid a game having inputs more than jump+down+A

 

[LancerStaff]

What update are you on about?
It was always natural, even back in Melee.
Perfect pivot worse than tripping?
Anybody decent wouldn't even try to shield that early? Anybody decent would've done the freaking l-cancel; I was referring to casuals in Brawl.
Fragile speedsters/"mobile projectiles" are already at the top again.
Smash isn't living up to jack; it's always been what it's meant to be to whoever played it in whatever way they wanted to.

I could almost take you seriously beforehand, but after >lel and the rest of this post, I can't.

Update? The last one removed dashing Usmashes without jump canceling, presumably to destroy DACUSing.

No it ain't. You claim it's natural because people would try to shield that specific moment required to L-cancel. Very few, if any at all, have learned L-canceling naturally. Compared to dashing Usmashes, which comes from either using the C-stick to do a dash attack or a less experienced player attempting to do a Usmash out of a dash without knowing otherwise.

You pseudo randomly mess up, especially those trying to get into competitive smash. Like I said, they'd rather have it gone then deal with. It's just frustrating to the average person who wants to remotely compete. To cover my rear again, I've dealt with harder things. I don't really care about figuring it out myself, but it quickly sucked the fun out of the room when everybody realized it was remotely difficult to do.

Contrary to popular belief, patches are still on the table. A certain writer didn't notice he was using a botched translation and hasn't bother to change the title yet. And even then, it's not this insurmountable gap like it's always been.

Smash never was supposed to be anything but a silly little party game. I'm sorry you've been disillusioned.

Glad I brought chips because there is an immense amount of salt in this thread, especially from these casuals. But seriously. Why do you people keep talking about L-Canceling being this hard to do AT? If you have an IQ higher than about 60, L-Canceling should be pretty damn easy to do. I mean it's literally, press the L or R button right as or before you hit the ground, like if you have functioning eyes you can learn to L-Cancel. At least Wavedashing was actually kinda hard to do. I sure as hell can't do it, but that's mostly because I don't care to practice it because I don't care to just practice things on my own, I do it as I play and eventually get the hang of it or just play without it. I've played against people that use all kinds of tech skills, while I don't and some of them out play me and some of them I just smoke because I play a very bull**** playstyle. You guys ***** and complain about how ATs are just so bad and hurt the game and blah blah blah, but I've yet to see a reason for not having them. Casual players will lose? Well holy ****, no way? Why should anyone care that a casual player will lose to an experienced player? Are you ****ing kidding me? So I guess Starcraft 2 should be rebalanced so that Bronze players can take on Grandmasters and pros because it's not fair that casuals lose and there is a skill gap exists or that one can exist at all. That's basically what I'm getting from this, let's just take any competitive game and complain that casual suck at them and something shoudl be done about the skill gap. Smash already has a low as **** skill floor, at least give us a moderately high skill ceiling for god's sake. But I mean REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A SECOND! People are literally arguing that CASUAL PLAYERS, let me say this again, C-A-S-U-A-L P-L-A-Y-E-R-S are not able to win against experienced players. Let me just bold and highlight this real quick. People are arguing that casual players are losing to experienced/competitive players. What a novel concept. FFS. I'm just gonna go kill myself irl real quick because there are people this dumb.

>Brings chips
>Kills himself
*steals chips*

Seriously, you don't understand. Smash's learning curve is supposed to be nearly nothing. The highest levels are supposed to be accessible, they're supposed to be the basics jacked up with tons of mindgames and obscure knowledge. If you want imput barriers, you've been looking in the wrong place for a LONG time.

Oooo anecdotal huh? Is it thesaurus time? You keep dancing around the point that I've been making in this thread. I know when you change something online it effects everyone. You don't have to play certain people online. If you made it an option it would be your choice and the player would be aware of it. How else can I write this?

Dude go get tattooed "casual king" on your forearm. I don't know what to tell you and you prove what I was saying earlier about the hate from people that have a hard time practicing these techniques. Who said I was upset about wavedashing or L cancelling not being in the game? I'm going to a smash 4 tournament this weekend. Obviously I'm not bent out of shape about it. I'll say this one more time and hopefully you get it. If there was an option in the game to turn wavedashing and L cancelling on and off it would have nothing to do with you. You could play your casual little heart out with your chin held high in the air not joining any lobbies that had such techniques and gloat to your online casual friends who practicing wave dashing is dumb.

Such a toggle would further divide the community. Obviously we don't need that.

God forbid a game having inputs more than jump+down+A

That's the design, so yes.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Such a toggle would further divide the community. Obviously we don't need that.

HOW?! Are you telling me for glory and for fun are divided right now? Ranked vs endless lobbies in street fighter and marvel vs capcom. Dude...this is not inventing the wheel. These options in fighting games online have been widely used online for over a decade now. How would more options on how the players chooses to fight online divide the community? It's not dividing; it's people playing the same game with different options. How can that possibly be bad?

 

[CroonerMike]

It's a ****ing game. Just play it as it is.

 

[Etc_Guy]

It's a ****ing game. Just play it as it is.

Ikr. If you want a broken a f*** game go play TF2. The balance is so off it's fair. (It's not.) So why break a perfect game when you can have fun? Killing others enjoyment for yours is for fairly sadistic whiny brats.

Here's the rest of my argument:

Here's a fair trade-off for everyone...... You get wavedashing but tripping returns................ and it happens a lot. Sounds fair because if you don't stop whining the new director might give you both in return for breaking an already broken game.

Perfect pivoting is basically wavedashing but nerfed. I wouldn't complain about something you want if it's in the game.

 

[LancerStaff]

HOW?! Are you telling me for glory and for fun are divided right now? Ranked vs endless lobbies in street fighter and marvel vs capcom. Dude...this is not inventing the wheel. These options in fighting games online have been widely used online for over a decade now. How would more options on how the players chooses to fight online divide the community? It's not dividing; it's people playing the same game with different options. How can that possibly be bad?

That wouldn't divide things between for fun and for glory, that would further divide glory. There's plenty of competitive players who want the antiquated Melee stuff out of Smash 4.

 

[PCHU]

Ikr. If you want a broken a f*** game go play TF2. The balance is so off it's fair. (It's not.) So why break a perfect game when you can have fun? Killing others enjoyment for yours is fairly sadistic whiny brats.

Here's the rest of my argument:

What are we breaking that isn't already broken?
Smash 4 is actually very well balanced, I'll admit, but there are some flaws that keep it being far from perfect.

Also, it's kinda funny that you call us sadistic whiny brats, because either way, someone's gonna be upset -- remember all the people who whined about Ike in Brawl?
They kept forgetting he didn't have anything else to really work with outside of that.
I guess the unhappy party it may as well be the people who invest their time into the game rather than the people who play the game every now and then, maximizing profits and all that by watering down a product to "feed" more.

I guarantee if the characters overall had less startup/cooldown on their stuff, less people would be wanting stuff to be added on because the game would allow for more.
You could even keep the grab invulnerability and wacky ledge mechanics (really, it'd solve a lot of problems even if you couldn't outright steal the ledge from someone else) because there would be a lot more variety in how you could fight.
I agree that characters need to be kept in check, but giving people more leeway in a game that already does a heck of a lot for people who, historically, have trouble/dislike complexity would actually give the game more life in that we wouldn't be tied to the same combos/attack strings/retaliations.

Despite its lack of tech, I loved Brawl, and it could've been a fantastic game with some hitbox tweaks -- it didn't heavily reward people who knew tech (outside of broken stuff like ICG and IC infinites, and regardless of chaingrabs being a tech, casual players used it anyway) and there weren't many go-to true combos, so people were more encouraged to come up with their own strings and setups.
I think it's the closest balance we've had between offense and defense yet, and that's probably why I enjoyed it so much; the lack of shieldstun and offensive options kinda ruin Smash 4 for me because I fight people all the time who don't want to approach or, half the time, even play the game -- I finally get up to them and make a whole bunch of reads for the KO, and they either kill themselves or resort to camping harder.
I love fighting CF and Ganon mains because they actually space their stuff and try to fight back, but after fighting Villager upon Fox upon Pac-Man upon MegaMan upon freaking Lucario, it's devolved into something I'm pretty disappointed with, and I haven't spent a single penny on the game.
I've figured it out -- it's not tech, it's not lack of tech, it's the game being so simple that people don't feel compelled to learn anymore.
I'm tired of free wins and I'm tired of wins drawn from a 5-minute session of "Catch me if you can XD"; I miss playing good matches against good players.
I used to watch people and be amazed at their reads and reactionary execution (even in Brawl), but everything now looks so basic that, outside of breaking habits, nothing's so unique that I'd really have to practice to learn it.

Maybe if we gave powershielding its reflective properties back (3-frame window), it'd be more interesting.

 

[SmashChu]

Oooo anecdotal huh? Is it thesaurus time? You keep dancing around the point that I've been making in this thread. I know when you change something online it effects everyone. You don't have to play certain people online. If you made it an option it would be your choice and the player would be aware of it. How else can I write this?

Dude go get tattooed "casual king" on your forearm. I don't know what to tell you and you prove what I was saying earlier about the hate from people that have a hard time practicing these techniques. Who said I was upset about wavedashing or L cancelling not being in the game? I'm going to a smash 4 tournament this weekend. Obviously I'm not bent out of shape about it. I'll say this one more time and hopefully you get it. If there was an option in the game to turn wavedashing and L cancelling on and off it would have nothing to do with you. You could play your casual little heart out with your chin held high in the air not joining any lobbies that had such techniques and gloat to your online casual friends who practicing wave dashing is dumb.

Good job, you added nothing to this conversation. Have a cookie. As an aside, you do seem upset.

Nothing about high level play is conductive to the average player, 0 to death MvC combos, 1-frame links in SF4, dominant minion and lane contol in LoL (just trying to add something that isn't a fighter). Point being, if you're the average player and don't do your research, you won't get that far, and it isn't hard to look up a guide either. God forbid a game having inputs more than jump+down+A

If competitive play is not conductive to the average player, than why design the game around them? Why make mechanics that alienate the average player? The argument has always been that these mechanics should be added because they don't affect the average player. But it's clear they do in an online environment and most everyone here agrees with it. So why add them? The responses I'm getting are "Well, you have to put effort into win," or something like that.

On input: they shouldn't be hard. Hard inputs = bad game. People shouldn't have to struggle to tell the character what to do. The most successful games had very easy inputs (doesn't mean the game was easy). Hard inputs are frustrating not fun. Less is more.

 

[Gunla]

This thread has, unfortunately, run it's course; it has reached rather hostile levels and will be locked.