Marie_54
Smash Ace
To- StripesOrBars,
either way you got owned.
Or maybe its a hermaphrodite...
either way you got owned.
First read before asking...
Or maybe its a hermaphrodite...
-
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An Essay on the Community: Approaching a Unique Problem from Both Sides
- Thread starter Jack Kieser
- Start date
DarkShadowRage
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,114
- Location
- Texas
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- DarkShadowRage
- 3DS FC
- 0534-0479-5837
- Switch FC
- SW-6587-7751-8591
You bold too much Yuna >_>
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
This makes me so angry. YOU have no idea how much I just want to make you dissapear. I HATE THIS ATTITUDE. IT'S EVERYWHERE HERE AND IT SUCKS. Veteran "smash boarders" assume that because they have an established f***ing community, new members are completely new to smash. (Or in particular competitive smash)
F*** YOU. You assume that a person with fewer than 100 posts has never been to a tournament. You assume that because someone hasn't hasn't joined your freaking smash community that they suck at smash. NEWS FLASH. IT'S NOT TRUE. NOT NOT NOT. Go to hell bitter veterans, go to hell. I think I'll head to my next f***ing tournament now. KISS OFF.
Twin Dreams
Smash Ace
Example of a biased "noob" overreacting to a stupid "veteran"
I think this post aptly demonstrates the problem here....
DarkShadowRage
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,114
- Location
- Texas
- NNID
- DarkShadowRage
- 3DS FC
- 0534-0479-5837
- Switch FC
- SW-6587-7751-8591
Welcome to Smashboards, where your Opinion is a declaration of war!
SK8orDIE
Smash Apprentice
This thread is out of control.
Yuna, as much as I respect you and appreciate your devotion to the Smash community, I don't think your response to the OP had a very positive impact. In fact, I'm dissapointed by the way you handled that. Based on the comments, it seems that a conflict exists beyond this one thread. I haven't encountered any of Jack Keiser's other posts, but it sounds like the two of you have butted heads before. Maybe you are justified in your words and have attempted to be civil, but from here it looks like bullying and I believe that leadership in the Smash Community needs to be held to a higher standard of conduct than that; a standard that avoids even the appearance of wrongdoing.
Also, am I the only person who noted that this essay was a draft? Part of the editing process is identifying logical inconsistencies. Some of you pointed out logical inconsistencies in the original post, but doing so to attack what is clearly a work in progess seems silly.
Overall, I'm not sure how I feel about tournaments with items. I think that the rules of competitive Melee make sense and are justified, but I also like the idea of tournaments including some sort of "rule-free" event as well, if only for variety and to encourage participation from different types of smashers. Diversity shouldn't be a bad thing. If these events gain popularity, it may become wise to give them more structure or turn them into competitions.
Yuna, as much as I respect you and appreciate your devotion to the Smash community, I don't think your response to the OP had a very positive impact. In fact, I'm dissapointed by the way you handled that. Based on the comments, it seems that a conflict exists beyond this one thread. I haven't encountered any of Jack Keiser's other posts, but it sounds like the two of you have butted heads before. Maybe you are justified in your words and have attempted to be civil, but from here it looks like bullying and I believe that leadership in the Smash Community needs to be held to a higher standard of conduct than that; a standard that avoids even the appearance of wrongdoing.
Also, am I the only person who noted that this essay was a draft? Part of the editing process is identifying logical inconsistencies. Some of you pointed out logical inconsistencies in the original post, but doing so to attack what is clearly a work in progess seems silly.
Overall, I'm not sure how I feel about tournaments with items. I think that the rules of competitive Melee make sense and are justified, but I also like the idea of tournaments including some sort of "rule-free" event as well, if only for variety and to encourage participation from different types of smashers. Diversity shouldn't be a bad thing. If these events gain popularity, it may become wise to give them more structure or turn them into competitions.
SKnickers03
Smash Journeyman
martin luther king couldnt unify this "community". itll always be a place where new people have to feel skeptical or terrified of posting any response (or, god forbid, about starting a thread), in fear of being bombarded by the criticism of old-school veterans . and where smashboard veterans are forced to get used to new people saying things that annoy them.
but honestly...smash bros. is a fighting game, right?
but honestly...smash bros. is a fighting game, right?
This conflict extends beyond this thread. But he touched upon it in this thread (as in: He brought it up, I just replied). He's kinda criticizing the "old school" for not letting the "new school" barge in and run things despite them not even wishing to be a part of the "new old" (as in, tournaments).
And he's been whining about it (and items and Final Smashes) for a good 4 months now. And miraculously, I'm still civil (civil =/= nice). And yet he keeps on repeating the same old stale arguments over and over and over.
And it still doesn't change the fact that he's wrong in some of the things he's saying in the OP, which I responded to, either.
People are free to host those kinds of tournaments. Heck, maybe some big ones will do it (unlikely). But we certainly won't if they keep whining.
Shaman
Smash Apprentice
Yuna is WIN!
this thread is Lose
but nice try to all involved maybe it will have a WIN over 9000 next time.
this thread is Lose
but nice try to all involved maybe it will have a WIN over 9000 next time.
Rhubarbo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,035
Sakurai said he views Smash as a party game in Nintendo Power.
LavisFiend
Smash Lord
Oh my god...
Look. Let me make this simple. One sentence to blow this away, (it's what I do.)
People will play how they want to play and to try to merge both ways of play in a sense of making everyone "play nice" is not going to happen.
It is just how it is. You can't change the minds of everybody.
Unless you are me. I have convinced everyone that tripping is sin and Sakurai is actually a celestial entity.
That **** got 5 stars. =D
Look. Let me make this simple. One sentence to blow this away, (it's what I do.)
People will play how they want to play and to try to merge both ways of play in a sense of making everyone "play nice" is not going to happen.
It is just how it is. You can't change the minds of everybody.
Unless you are me. I have convinced everyone that tripping is sin and Sakurai is actually a celestial entity.
That **** got 5 stars. =D
flyinfilipino
Smash Master
Do you have a link or anything? If not, did he say it was solely a party game?
Twin Dreams
Smash Ace
It doesn't matter what he thinks. It only matters what you think.
LavisFiend
Smash Lord
Who was that directed at Twin?
flyinfilipino
Smash Master
Yeah...I am SO lost right now.
Why do we need an essay explaining why there "should" be item tournaments? Nothing "should" happen as much as things just need to be done.
Anime Expo holds annual FFA Smash tournaments, I think even with items on, I don't remember. Do I care about entering? No. Do I care who wins? No. But they're having fun and winning random their crappy anime DVDs =) I personally know the staff; they don't do any complex analysis regarding balance of the freeze item, they just come up with the rules and people enter. One year, I remember the tournament had to be capped at 256, pretty good numbers for any tournament.
So people are fighting over items tourneys or Brawl/Melee tourneys and without it the community won't advance? Where's it going to go? If people are divided, so be it. Whatever happens in terms of tournaments, fan base, attendance usually has nothing to do with any arguing on a message board about fighting game theory. I've seen DOA fans argue hard for their game to be taken seriously and a whole slew of technical points brought up, yet at EVO attendance was sparse despite a $5k purse.
Melee / Brawl competing for participants? That's fine, make them choose and let the scene run its course, whether separate tourneys are good, whether Melee can hang in the same tournament as Brawl, whatever will happen will happen.
The Tekken scene had something like this. There were 3 versions: 5.0, 5.1, and DR. 5.0 came out, everyone loved it, we all had fun. Then 5.1 came out, arcade-only. Where I played, people preferred the pace of 5.0 over 5.1 and we stuck with that, with varying tournaments across the US. Then DR came out, arcade-only and the tourney scene was healthy with everyone playing DR... but EVO, being console-only, had to adopt 5.0. DR was generally accepted as being better, more balanced, more awesome.
What did people do? Everyone picked up 5.0, US, Japan, Korea just for EVO. I don't know why. Fame, money, fun, whatever it was, that's what they did, no internet debating required =)
Exploring the intricacies of games and discussing it is fun to me; that's why I'm here. But I know that nothing I do here will result in change.
I think everything I just stated was everything Yuna stated. But friendlier.
---
LOL at noobs complaining of elitism. I remember a lot of people whining over "not being accepted" at message boards, and then I remember a few who talked tons of trash lost MMs and everything but in the end it was all cool and they became part of the community because they just wanted to be better.
---
Who cares what Sakurai intended? This one guy named Dr. James Naismith created this game called basketball because he needed to entertain his students. He ended up spawning a multi-billion dollar industry with people adjusting the rules to create a better game.
Anime Expo holds annual FFA Smash tournaments, I think even with items on, I don't remember. Do I care about entering? No. Do I care who wins? No. But they're having fun and winning random their crappy anime DVDs =) I personally know the staff; they don't do any complex analysis regarding balance of the freeze item, they just come up with the rules and people enter. One year, I remember the tournament had to be capped at 256, pretty good numbers for any tournament.
So people are fighting over items tourneys or Brawl/Melee tourneys and without it the community won't advance? Where's it going to go? If people are divided, so be it. Whatever happens in terms of tournaments, fan base, attendance usually has nothing to do with any arguing on a message board about fighting game theory. I've seen DOA fans argue hard for their game to be taken seriously and a whole slew of technical points brought up, yet at EVO attendance was sparse despite a $5k purse.
Melee / Brawl competing for participants? That's fine, make them choose and let the scene run its course, whether separate tourneys are good, whether Melee can hang in the same tournament as Brawl, whatever will happen will happen.
The Tekken scene had something like this. There were 3 versions: 5.0, 5.1, and DR. 5.0 came out, everyone loved it, we all had fun. Then 5.1 came out, arcade-only. Where I played, people preferred the pace of 5.0 over 5.1 and we stuck with that, with varying tournaments across the US. Then DR came out, arcade-only and the tourney scene was healthy with everyone playing DR... but EVO, being console-only, had to adopt 5.0. DR was generally accepted as being better, more balanced, more awesome.
What did people do? Everyone picked up 5.0, US, Japan, Korea just for EVO. I don't know why. Fame, money, fun, whatever it was, that's what they did, no internet debating required =)
Exploring the intricacies of games and discussing it is fun to me; that's why I'm here. But I know that nothing I do here will result in change.
I think everything I just stated was everything Yuna stated. But friendlier.
---
LOL at noobs complaining of elitism. I remember a lot of people whining over "not being accepted" at message boards, and then I remember a few who talked tons of trash lost MMs and everything but in the end it was all cool and they became part of the community because they just wanted to be better.
---
Who cares what Sakurai intended? This one guy named Dr. James Naismith created this game called basketball because he needed to entertain his students. He ended up spawning a multi-billion dollar industry with people adjusting the rules to create a better game.
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
Wait, you just did it, right there. You called me a noob. I don't like that. I didn't find smash boards through Nintendo Power or that stupid guide. I finally made an account after several smash board veterans (many of my friends) told me I should. It's not an overreaction at all. I'm allowed to be angry at such an incredable lack of respect.
The same goes for many others. Comments like "Post count, join date - **** you" are not productive, piss people off and in general are utterly useless to everyone. Stop assuming things based on post date/# of posts. Yes it relates to this thread because it relates to "the boards" veterans and "the boards" new people. Ugh.
Marie_54
Smash Ace
^
If you are going to approach people who think they are better than "X" group of people or you, you have to control your anger and do it in a more civil and educated way.
I'm not saying kiss their @$$es just use more complex words like narrow minded and stereotypes, don't show your ego and it will be harder for them to insult you.
No offence, just trying to help.
You have a good point somewhere in there but with the "F*** YOU! THIS SUCKS!! I think I'll head to my next f***ing tournament now. KISS OFF." You sound like a n00b.
If you are going to approach people who think they are better than "X" group of people or you, you have to control your anger and do it in a more civil and educated way.
I'm not saying kiss their @$$es just use more complex words like narrow minded and stereotypes, don't show your ego and it will be harder for them to insult you.
No offence, just trying to help.
We don't assume you're new to Competitive Smash or that you're a n00b or stupid based on your post count and join date, we assume it because you say stupid, ignorant and uninformed things.
We merely look at post count and join date for a greater perspective. Random guy no one's ever seen or herd of before who joined just a month ago and who has only 100 or so posts says something really, really stupid. Then we assume he's new (and stupid, ignorant and whatever).
Some guy who's been around for over a year with 500+ posts says something mildly stupid, then we assume it's a slip of judgment or he might just be slightly daft.
Some guy who's been around for longer than that and has over thousand posts who says something really, really, really stupid: We assume he spams a lot. We still think he's stupid and treat him the same way we treat any other stupid member.
"We" (I, Twin Dreams, others) do not judge and condemn based on post count and join dates. We do it based on what you say.
And I'm so awesome I can sound condescending, insulting and sarcastic all rolled into one yet stil say civil and without using harsh language.
LavisFiend
Smash Lord
Then why didn't you invite me to your party? >=(
Seriously though, there is always exceptions to this Yuna. You know this. No one is exempt from stereotyping users based on post count. People tend to take things out of context seemingly at normal intervals around here.
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
I haven't said anything stupid -- Except that 2v2 was more fun than 1v1 on brawl. A silly notion to be sure, but not one that merits a board of insults.
Also, ignorant and uniformed... what the hell? You, who preach that "your own style of smash" won't change? Who's ill imformed? Who's ignorant? Well, I suppose it's all a matter of perspective.
----
Marie_54
Smash Ace
QFT. You can never speak for a group of people as there are always differences.
Marie_54
Smash Ace
(Sorry i made a double post because of lag...)
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
None taken. It's been an irritating day, physics 450 final today. Bloody advanced thermodynamics. LOL - not a very good excuse but, it's hard to deny the stereotyping and the obvious elitism. (c wut I did thar?)^
You have a good point somewhere in there but with the "F*** YOU! THIS SUCKS!! I think I'll head to my next f***ing tournament now. KISS OFF." You sound like a n00b.
If you are going to approach people who think they are better than "X" group of people or you, you have to control your anger and do it in a more civil and educated way.
I'm not saying kiss their @$$es just use more complex words like narrow minded and stereotypes, don't show your ego and it will be harder for them to insult you.
No offence, just trying to help.
orintemple
Smash Lord
Just like in the real world outside of Smash the overly arrogant and those who complain yet refuse to learn should be thrown out on the street like the dogs they are.
Also, advanced thermodynamics, wtf dude thats some hardcore ****.
Also, advanced thermodynamics, wtf dude thats some hardcore ****.
LavisFiend
Smash Lord
and here I thought Quadratic functions was some hard ****.
Course with me living in the sticks, math does not come naturally.
Stupid college math remedial course and making me feel like a dumb ***. >=(
Don't even see WHY I need it. I am going for Dentistry.
Course with me living in the sticks, math does not come naturally.
Stupid college math remedial course and making me feel like a dumb ***. >=(
Don't even see WHY I need it. I am going for Dentistry.
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, I'm a whiner, it's the interent.... throw me in with the hobos!
I like physics, unfortunately my professor this semester was a boring old Italian woman who talked in a monotone voice and smelled like rotting fish.
Marie_54
Smash Ace
Well thats a good excuse, should have stated it earlier...
My work here is done. *sniffle*
jk lol.
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
Aw, don't feel bad, you seem highly articulate, which implies a higher level of thinking.
I have a friend who's pre-dentistry, he despises math. You and him should get together and go bowling lol.
Oh yeah. But it's just as bad to stereotype anyone who insults you for being new as an elitist "veteran" as if veterans discriminate against new users (I don't, I discriminate against stupid users).
I never said that you had specifically said anything like that. "You" was used in a general sense to show you when the "veterans" would kick in and throw down with you. People who stare blindly at join dates and post count regardless of what the user actually says are stupid themselves.
And this is what you did say:
StripesOrBars said: "We now have n00bs(People who found out about smashboards through Nintendo power or the crap brawl strategy guide) and melee guys(awesome dudes)."
You interpreted it as: Any user who's new is a n00b... and it's very bad to be a n00b.
Then followed pure lies:
I HATE THIS ATTITUDE. IT'S EVERYWHERE HERE AND IT SUCKS. Veteran "smash boarders" assume that because they have an established f***ing community, new members are completely new to smash. (Or in particular competitive smash)
You assume that a person with fewer than 100 posts has never been to a tournament. You assume that because someone hasn't hasn't joined your freaking smash community that they suck at smash. NEWS FLASH. IT'S NOT TRUE. NOT NOT NOT. Go to hell bitter veterans, go to hell. I think I'll head to my next f***ing tournament now. KISS OFF.
A whole truckload of bovine manure. The majority of that isn't true. We don't do any of those things. We, the vetted and experienced forum users and Competitive gamers, judge you on what you say and how well you play, not by how long you've been a member of Smashboards or how many posts you have.
I don't know what parallel universe you live in, but the majority of those who look down on people with low post counts by default are themselves quite new (as in: They joined when Brawl was first announced or sometime thereafter).
I'm sorry, what? I'm saying "We won't turn items on" and this equates to me being ill informed and ignorant? You see, this is one of those instances where you're saying something stupid and I have to slap you silly with my acerbic, witty and multi-talented tongue.
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
Hold on now, I don't want to cite specific examples (because I'm sleepy) but this is not a "load of manure", as you so eloquently put it. I WAS put in a situation like that. It's where this came from. I don't mean all of the super-hardcores-best in the nation-or whatever, just... some.
Firstly, you're typing so... if you're using your tongue... holy hell we have to meet.
Secondly, what I ment was... it seems like you might be a little closed minded or perhaps so set in your system you are afraid of change. I don't think wanting change or suggesting new things should be considered ill informed or ignorant.
btw, I hope I'm coherent enough.
Marie_54
Smash Ace
Yuna- "Oh yeah. But it's just as bad to stereotype anyone who insults you for being new as an elitist "veteran" as if veterans discriminate against new users (I don't, I discriminate against stupid users)."
Nothing needs to be said.
Nothing needs to be said.
DragonBlade
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2005
- Messages
- 273
@ Jack Kieser
Honest question: what do you have to gain from uniting these two sides and changing the competitive community that makes you try so hard to accomplish it?
You seem to be putting a lot of effort into it. I can't help but think, if you used this effort for something else, like trying to get better at Melee instead, you could have been considered a decent player. You might have even been able to make something out of Brawl. If this game is currently so bad that you have to spend your time writing volumes on the forums trying to change the way other people play instead of playing it yourself, is it really worth it? Wouldn't it be better go play a game who's community you don't have to redefine to suit your needs?
Brawl really didn't go in the direction I wanted, as a competitive player. I complained for a bit, and still do sometimes, but I started playing Melee again and picked up Starcraft. I didn't try to get the community to boycott it and send petitions to Sakurai telling him to fix it, because I realized that would be unreasonable. No matter how good of an argument I had, I really couldn't argue with 5 million games sold. Much like how you really can't argue with the veterans who have years of experience, but you seem to be ignoring this.
Honest question: what do you have to gain from uniting these two sides and changing the competitive community that makes you try so hard to accomplish it?
You seem to be putting a lot of effort into it. I can't help but think, if you used this effort for something else, like trying to get better at Melee instead, you could have been considered a decent player. You might have even been able to make something out of Brawl. If this game is currently so bad that you have to spend your time writing volumes on the forums trying to change the way other people play instead of playing it yourself, is it really worth it? Wouldn't it be better go play a game who's community you don't have to redefine to suit your needs?
Brawl really didn't go in the direction I wanted, as a competitive player. I complained for a bit, and still do sometimes, but I started playing Melee again and picked up Starcraft. I didn't try to get the community to boycott it and send petitions to Sakurai telling him to fix it, because I realized that would be unreasonable. No matter how good of an argument I had, I really couldn't argue with 5 million games sold. Much like how you really can't argue with the veterans who have years of experience, but you seem to be ignoring this.
LavisFiend
Smash Lord
@Yuna: Well, I agree and nor was I insinuating that if you got that from what I said, (ya see, missing context.)
I just brought it up because Hypnotist is a great example of what I am talking about. That dude was REALLY bad with that attitude 6-7 months back.
Except, unlike you and many others, he didn't discriminate because people were stupid. He did it because of their status.
It's no biggie. I wasn't hurling that at your head or anything, just tagging that on is all. =P
I just brought it up because Hypnotist is a great example of what I am talking about. That dude was REALLY bad with that attitude 6-7 months back.
Except, unlike you and many others, he didn't discriminate because people were stupid. He did it because of their status.
It's no biggie. I wasn't hurling that at your head or anything, just tagging that on is all. =P
I have nothing against change. I welcome change.
But change isn't necessarily good. It all depends on what's going to change and how it's going to change. This particular change (Items and Final Smashes) is highly detrimental to Competitive play. As such, I'm naturally against it.
I'm not "too set" in my ways or intolerant of change. I'm intolerant of giving up Competitive viability in Competitive play for no good reason. As I said, my tongue is multi-talented.
This is this and that is that. People who are just afraid of change are stupid. I've analyzed Brawl, I still am. I still think Melee is a superior game especially when it comes to Competitive play. I have evidence for this. If you can prove me wrong, by all means prove me wrong.
I'm not some blind fanboy who'll argue without any proof or facts on their side.
Besides, the majority of the people who argued against Melee back then aren't even around today. That was 7 years ago. This is this and that is that. Not everything in history repeats.
LavisFiend
Smash Lord
I JUST TIDDLED! XD
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
Alright, and I agree, in this case. I don't really want items or FS in competitive tournaments either.
Don't get me wrong, your argument was justified, I just would like to see some "new people" get their ideas in too, if they really are good that is... if that makes sense... ::yawn:: ok, bed time.
So would I. They just generally don't have that many good ideas because they're new, yet many of them think they instantly know everything needed to shape a balanced and competitive ruleset for tournament play despite me and others telling them they're wrong.