Amazing Ampharos' & Xiivi's General Brawl Ruleset & Reasoning

[Xiivi]

* Many transformations favour those who have good jumps. Those who don't are screwed as they won't ever, for example, make it past the 4 Spears transformation without having to use Up B. Meanwhile, their opponents are free to do whatever, sometimes, say, spam projectiles.

The basic stage itself is completely flat. It will be like this for half the time. This doesn't favour aerial characters at all. In fact this helps to balance the stage more as it won't always give the same advantages and instead slightly change layout the majority of the time. The walls stop the majority of projectiles, preventing people from spamming projectiles in most of them. Heck, I think even R.O.B.'s laser doesn't go through them. Further, you mention the 4 Spears, characters with poor jumps (such as Ganondorf) can easily go between them by airdodging through the spike, it works and doesn't limit your movement between them.

* The many platform transformations again favour those with good jumps. Those without cannot catch up to run-away spammers.

As I said, there are many platform transformations, but how is this different than Battlefield where there are always platforms? The stage will always be flat one half of the time, so no, aerial characters will simply get a short 13.33 second boost every now and then thanks to platforms. Wow, so dangerous.

* You can actually get "stuck" inside of a transformation, like "below" the water on the Boat at Sea tranformation. Zelda's Din's Fire and all characters with a sword say "Hi". Untouchable while spamming disjointed hitboxes, anyone?

You can get stuck in a grand total of..........4/27, yes 4/27, transformations. Oh man, I'm totally counterpicking a stage where I might get 13.33 seconds of being stuck inside of a transformation that just happened to be drawn while I was standing where I needed to be! I'll completely swing the match I was losing in this timeframe and easily depend on this, making it a great stage to counterpick! Seriously, the absurdity of such a thing is silly. You can't even use Din's Fire through the stacked Box's transformation as it won't go through the walls. I assume this is true for the others as well, if my Wii was working I'd test it, however I'm fairly sure it doesn't work as with all projectiles like Pit's arrows. So what, Marth's going to swing his sword through a wall like he could during the melee PS1 fire transformation. Yeah, that's so hard to avoid given the size of the stage and the layout. Each of the four that can draw around you have enough space you can avoid someone attacking you through the walls easily.

* The many transformations where you either cannot make it to the other side or have to take great risks in doing so allows for characters on "the other side" (like the transformation with Two Eyes) to spam projectiles or high priority moves/disjointed hitboxes at you while you're helpless.

During the Two Eyes transformation projectiles won't be going through the wall anyway. You can easily hide during this one from your opponent if you get separated (which is rare considering how it is drawn). The number of transformations that can successfully separate you is 6/27, and they really do a poor job of successfully separating you.

Not to mention that I shouldn't have to worry about more than half of the transformations being easily used stall the match since unless I'm Zelda or a character with a sword (or Snake), it's impossible for me to even touch them! Sometimes, I can touch them, but it'd be at a considerable risk. Over half of the cast gets screwed over by, say, Zelda's Din's Fire specifically on this stage. In fact, it's a great Zelda counterpick as most of the time, they won't even be able to touch you!

The Din's Fire doesn't work. Projectile spam doesn't work. You keep saying "Over half of the transformations" or "many of the transformations". However you're blatantly wrong on this as only those same 6/27 can actually allow you to stall without your opponent being able to stop it easily. It isn't as skewed as you're trying to make it and those 6 transformations have such low chances of separating or drawing around you it's a rare occurrence.

Also, when Pokémon Stadium transformed into the walled versions, you just didn't go near the walls. It's not like Fox could magically teleport you to the walls. The many transformations of PictoChat are kinda hard to not successfully abuse.

King Dedede isn't going to magically teleport you next to a wall either. Zelda isn't going to magically teleport into the boxes where her Din's Fire won't even go through the walls anyway either.

Also,many of those transformations can be abused for jab-locks, laser locks and chaingrabs, allowing them to go on way past their time.

First off, jab-locks and laser-locks are already rare, and successfully pulling one off on cue during a transformation on cue really isn't going to happen. Heck, most chaingrabs aren't going to happen considering the limited amount of space and time given for these transformations. You're ignoring the majority of the transformations which are simply various platform layouts and instead focusing on a select few and very situational consequences. It's ridiculous how you're skewing the facts on the stage to promote your own argument.

EDIT: I just went to youtube and did a search for Pictochat. http://youtube.com/watch?v=X5qVDsDHJ4Y
At around 2:20ish you see the spikes appear. Ganondorf easily hops through the stage using airdodges is one thing I noticed. However the reason I wanted to show this real quick is you see Pit's arrow stopped by the wall created. Pictochat's temporary walls are just like any other wall and not permeable to projectiles. And man, it was from feburary and they were still doing fine guiding through the stage despite having little time to get familiar with it.

 

[Yuna]

The basic stage itself is completely flat. It will be like this for half the time. This doesn't favour aerial characters at all.

How does a flat stage "not favour aerial characters at all"? It doesn't disadvantage them. It's just that when the stage changes, half of the modes favour aerial characters and hit-and-run characters.

In fact this helps to balance the stage more as it won't always give the same advantages and instead slightly change layout the majority of the time.

Only the majority of the transformations favour the same characters.

The walls stop the majority of projectiles, preventing people from spamming projectiles in most of them.

They do not stop Din's Fire.

Heck, I think even R.O.B.'s laser doesn't go through them. Further, you mention the 4 Spears, characters with poor jumps (such as Ganondorf) can easily go between them by airdodging through the spike, it works and doesn't limit your movement between them.

Oh yeah. "Here's a magical solution to these spears which can kill you: Jump, 2nd jump and airdodge through them, leaving yourself wide open for attack!". Great solution.

As I said, there are many platform transformations, but how is this different than Battlefield where there are always platforms? The stage will always be flat one half of the time, so no, aerial characters will simply get a short 13.33 second boost every now and then thanks to platforms. Wow, so dangerous.

Because the platforms on Battlefield are shaped differently. The platforms on Battlefield do not go as high nor are there a myriad of them. Even hit and runners can't run around in circles on Battlefield unless they're, say, Sonic and playing against, say, Ganondorf.

Certain characters will have blatant recurring advantages for half of the duration of the match or so. Neutral?

You can get stuck in a grand total of..........4/27, yes 4/27, transformations. Oh man, I'm totally counterpicking a stage where I might get 13.33 seconds of being stuck inside of a transformation that just happened to be drawn while I was standing where I needed to be!

Doesn't make it any less unfair. It's also only one part of the big ball of wax.

You can't even use Din's Fire through the stacked Box's transformation as it won't go through the walls.

I believe it goes through the whale for reasons unknown. Heck, the hitbox expands so much it doesn't even need to go through it, but I do believe it goes through the whale.

So what, Marth's going to swing his sword through a wall like he could during the melee PS1 fire transformation. Yeah, that's so hard to avoid given the size of the stage and the layout.

That's not the point. It creates a part the match during which you cannot possibly touch your opponent all the while they can touch you. Also, a small part of the big ball of wax.

Each of the four that can draw around you have enough space you can avoid someone attacking you through the walls easily.

Only you'd have to avoid getting hit while not being able to hit back. Fair?

During the Two Eyes transformation projectiles won't be going through the wall anyway. You can easily hide during this one from your opponent if you get separated (which is rare considering how it is drawn). The number of transformations that can successfully separate you is 6/27, and they really do a poor job of successfully separating you.

See above.

The Din's Fire doesn't work. Projectile spam doesn't work. You keep saying "Over half of the transformations" or "many of the transformations". However you're blatantly wrong on this as only those same 6/27 can actually allow you to stall without your opponent being able to stop it easily. It isn't as skewed as you're trying to make it and those 6 transformations have such low chances of separating or drawing around you it's a rare occurrence.

I'm sorry, I said "over half of the transformations" when? 6 transformations where you can "get stuck" and stall (all the while having a chance of hitting your oponent while they're helpless to hit back), half of the transformations allow you to easily run away, screwing over anyone who's slower or who doesn't have one great projectile. Having to dodge the stage a lot of the time, transformations which blatantly screw over characters who aren't good at jumping.

It's not neutral.

King Dedede isn't going to magically teleport you next to a wall either. Zelda isn't going to magically teleport into the boxes where her Din's Fire won't even go through the walls anyway either.

How hard is it to stand around in the middle of the stage during each transformation? Also, just one part of the big ball of wax.

First off, jab-locks and laser-locks are already rare, and successfully pulling one off on cue during a transformation on cue really isn't going to happen.

They're only rare because people don't do them. It's not like it's very hard, especially laser locks.

Heck, most chaingrabs aren't going to happen considering the limited amount of space and time given for these transformations.

Only they allow for them to go on way past their limit. Heck, there's a ton of wallcombos you can do on many of the transformations because they have, you know, walls, wall combos which would otherwise be impossible. This is not a neutral stage. It blatantly allows for a lot of stuff that is limited to "special" stages, all of which are either banned of counterpicks.

You're ignoring the majority of the transformations which are simply various platform layouts and instead focusing on a select few and very situational consequences. It's ridiculous how you're skewing the facts on the stage to promote your own argument.

Yeah, the ones where Sonic can just hit Ganondorf once on and the run away in circles around the paltforms.

EDIT: I just went to youtube and did a search for Pictochat. http://youtube.com/watch?v=X5qVDsDHJ4Y
At around 2:20ish you see the spikes appear. Ganondorf easily hops through the stage using airdodges is one thing I noticed. However the reason I wanted to show this real quick is you see Pit's arrow stopped by the wall created. Pictochat's temporary walls are just like any other wall and not permeable to projectiles. And man, it was from feburary and they were still doing fine guiding through the stage despite having little time to get familiar with it.

1) So once the spears appear, run away and airdodge like a mofo, trying to avoid getting hit by extended and disjointed hitboxes through the spears (as in, jump into an adjacent space where the opponent can't reach you) while your opponent can go after you with various approaches still because your jumps just suck?
2) I never mentioned Pit's arrows.

 

[Yuna]

Question: Does anyone besides you and Ampharos support PictoChat on Random?

 

[petrie911]

Well, I do. For pretty much the reasons they've given.

 

[Firestorm88]

Whats neutral will always matter. You shouldn't have to waste your Halberd just because a TO went crazy with stage picks. Stage striking is very important in tournaments and you shouldn't have to waste your ban on a stage like Halberd or Picto Chat just because they're on random.

You're misunderstanding what I mean by stage-striking. I mean if the decision goes that the first stage is selected through a strike-out method. So each player strikes out a stage until one is left.

Halberd can easily be argued for neutral. I actually think general concensus is that it's neutral. I know I've used it as neutral in some online tournaments I've run already and if I hold a local one soon, I'll be including it in the neutral selection as well.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Question: Does anyone besides you and Ampharos support PictoChat on Random?

There are a few. But it will never be random for reasons that we've already discussed in the SBR when someone suggested this. Of course, we're no longer using random anymore, so its not like that matters much now.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You're misunderstanding what I mean by stage-striking. I mean if the decision goes that the first stage is selected through a strike-out method. So each player strikes out a stage until one is left.

Halberd can easily be argued for neutral. I actually think general concensus is that it's neutral. I know I've used it as neutral in some online tournaments I've run already and if I hold a local one soon, I'll be including it in the neutral selection as well.

Oh lol, I thought you meant the old version of stage striking where you only get one(or two, one neutral and one counter pick in some tourneys) strike per set.

 

[JCaesar]

There are a few. But it will never be random for reasons that we've already discussed in the SBR when someone suggested this. Of course, we're no longer using random anymore, so its not like that matters much now.

Oh **** spoilers o_O

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Neutral strike out :DD
Sounds fun.

I've always liked Pictochat, but neutral is eh eh to me.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I notice that SamuraiPanda's post, when read pedantically, only suggests a change from the random system to a neutral stike-out system (unless by random he actually meant neutrals in general... which isn't clear). Honestly, I have no objection to that, and it would probably be more fair anyway. It would also put the power to prevent PictoChat firmly in the players' hands.

I would propose the order 1-2-2-2-2-1 for stage removal. That is far more fair than 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 and is much quicker to boot. This also proposes a strong argument to keep PictoChat there; having an even number of neutrals makes the process inherently less fair. Actually, working it out, 11 is fantastic as a number of neutral stages because fair schemes are really hard to make for most other numbers. The only lower numbers of equal fairness, if I am calculating this out correctly, are 1 and 7 (15, 19, 23, etc. are also fair but wholly impractical). 1 is obviously unacceptable too, and I think 7 would be nixing too many good stages (though it would be a great number for melee!). So here's a great argument to include PictoChat in random striking: it's one of the 11 best candidates to be grouped in, and 11 is a number we should strive for. The idea of striving for a particular number of neutrals probably seems dumb at first, but when you use a strike-out system instead of a random system, the total number is really important.

As per the method, in order to prevent players from forgetting, I suggest random stage select be used as an optional tally sheet for striking. As in, when announcing strikes, do it in random stage select and just turn off stages as you strike them until only one is left (the one that will be used).

Also, about controller ports, this was something I thought up a while ago but figured might be too small to include; opinions on it would be welcome. I was thinking that if one player picks Snake and the other picks a character other than Snake that the non-Snake player should have the right to demand controller port 4 (so Snake's grenades won't screw him up when grabbing). In the event of Bowser vs non-Bowser, the Bowser player should have the right to demand controller port 1 in order to prevent his last stock Bowsercide from resulting in Sudden Death.

While we're on pedantic points, should a Pokemon Trainer player have the right to protest about the disc reader speed of a tournament console and request the use of a different Wii? It actually matters for his transformation time which is very important to him.

To be clear to Xiivi, I'm suggesting the first point (about neutral strike-outs) be amended into the original post and just throwing the other two out there as floating questions.

As per how stage bans interact, I propose it happen after the stage strikeout (which is after character selection) and only apply to rounds other than round 1 (so you couldn't ban the stage you just arrived at by strike-out).

 

[Oracle]

I have a large problem with your stages list. I can understand Halberd and Delphino for neutral, but come on? Rumble falls? Pkmn stadium 2? It's pretty well understood that pictochat will never be neutral.

 

[Firestorm88]

AA, including 11 stages for neutral in a strike-out system really makes it hard to do off the top of your head. I think limiting it to around 5 or 7 would be much better. Giving players new to the scene a list of 11 stages and getting them to strike out every match really wouldn't work too well in my opinion.

 

[petrie911]

You'd only need to strike stages once per set. And it's not really that intimidating for a first timer. It's basically "which of these stages don't you like?".

And AA, 2-3-3-2 might be better than 1-2-2-2-2-1, as it takes even less time, though at the cost of some small fairness issues.

EDIT: One thing to consider about the strikeout method is whether you can still be left with a bad stage after using your 5 strikes. This gives the strikeout method a little more leeway when it comes to character advantages, as long as said advantages don't all go in the same direction. I'd say Pictochat, Castle Siege, and Luigi's Mansion all have a decent shot at that 11th neutral slot, and it would really depend on how the characters those stages favor line up with the characters that the other neutral stages favor.

So, which characters have notable advantages or disadvantages on the 11 given neutrals, Castle Siege, and Luigi's Mansion?

 

[Pink Reaper]

I randomly got killed by Castle Siege one time. It changed from the third part back to the first part and just pushed me under the stage(by under I mean like UNDER, a part you shouldn't be able to get to) Not sure if it happens often, but it should be considered.

 

[Chris is me]

I have a large problem with your stages list. I can understand Halberd and Delphino for neutral, but come on? Rumble falls? Pkmn stadium 2? It's pretty well understood that pictochat will never be neutral.

With such a strong, concise argument that's backed up with so much evidence, I'm surprised that no one has responded to you

Seriously, you just said "blah blah blah I don't like rumble falls and stadium 2 you're stupid". What kind of an argument is that? Xiivi and AA went well out of their way to test every stage and make a case for all of them, but you just piss on them by saying that?

The more I play PictoChat, the more I agree with AA and Xiivi. In fact, in its current form I 100% agree with this stage ban list (an earlier version which I had a few problems with was changed and conveniently addressed them!). Rumble Falls is seriously not broken; it scrolls in one direction and there aren't even walk-offs. But you wouldn't have noticed that argument as you were too busy thinking "i don't like scrolling stages I must piss on AA!". Stadium 2 is also fair in my opinion; I would have understood counterpick but neutral is great. The flying part isn't broken, the siding platforms aren't terrible, the ice is fun and strategic and gives trippers some more gimping powers (yay ice), and you can't infinite the ground wall. Oh, but since at first glance it didn't look right the case for it must be so bad that you don't even back up your post. GG.

"It's pretty well understood" is never a logical argument. It's simply a repeat of what some people think. PictoChat really isn't terribly flawed; I've played on it a lot and I've never had the stage mess me up.

 

[Overswarm]

I've just gotta say, I've really liked watching this thread evolve. GJ to the original poster too.

The SBR ruleset is pretty close to being done though :D

 

[Xiivi]

I've just gotta say, I've really liked watching this thread evolve. GJ to the original poster too.

The SBR ruleset is pretty close to being done though :D

Thanks for the compliment, it took forever to write everything out, and I still feel things could easily change. I already have a good idea of what the stage list and ruleset are going to be based on hints I've seen dropped from various SBR members. I really hate not being able to contribute to, let alone view the arguments made by the SBR though. I do hope this thread at least helped somehow though.

 

[Ulevo]

I've just gotta say, I've really liked watching this thread evolve. GJ to the original poster too.

QFT.

Also, I too am a supporter of Pictochat for Neutral.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Thanks for the compliment, it took forever to write everything out, and I still feel things could easily change. I already have a good idea of what the stage list and ruleset are going to be based on hints I've seen dropped from various SBR members. I really hate not being able to contribute to, let alone view the arguments made by the SBR though. I do hope this thread at least helped somehow though.

I think someone is going to be crafting a thread separate from the actual ruleset which explains the SBR's reasoning behind the stage list. Maybe even include the votes, so people can see how close some of the stages were to being banned or being starters. So no worries on that.

And yes, we're calling them starter stages instead of neutral stages now. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with the stage stike system, and the reasons why we're shifting from the old neutral system (one big reason being because there is no such thing as a truly neutral stage).

 

[Chris is me]

Is this thread going to die when the SBR releases their list? It'd be cool to see an alternate list with alternate viewpoints and some slightly more community-open collaboration. Please don't let this die....

 

[Mr.E]

I don't think it'd be too difficult to narrow the neutral stage list down to seven for the sake of a fair neutral strikeout total. Drop Rainbow Cruise, PictoChat, and the Pokémon Stadiums to CP and bam, seven neutrals.

I rather have to disagree with your copypasta neutrality reasoning for Rainbow Cruise, it's almost a perfect counterpick in my book. On its own, navigating the stage safely is never a question. During the course of an actual match, characters with poor jumping or otherwise poor aerial movement are quite disadvantaged against more mobile opponent. G&W would run circles around Snake for example, exploiting his poor aerial game and the limited landing space he can choose to scale the left side of the map successfully (without using his Up-B which leaves him extremely vulnerable in its own right). Others may also question the potential wall infinites and very short KO boundaries while on the ship or the ease of being gimped as the camera lowers from the top of the level.

Some of the PictoChat transformations do indeed have killing power. "The spikes" are the best (worst?) example, killing at 60% or lower on most characters. The transformations aren't terribly gamebreaking, but many of them can annoyingly split up the stage or provide hazards which can't be planned around due to the random nature of the transformations and the large number of possibilities. It's like a less drastic WarioWare.

And while I bear no particular malice against the PKMN STDMs, especially not PS1, they'd be the next easiest two to remove to retain the desired seven neutrals, since they're easily paired together and also have the strongest argument against their neutrality. I am reserved to call PS2 truly neutral to begin with...

On a related note to the Rainbow Cruise thing, I think Rumble Falls is in a similar boat. It's hardly "easy" to navigate the stage when it's sped up. Doable yes, but characters with poor jumping and/or fast falling speeds can barely keep up and are at the complete mercy of more mobile opponents who can actually make time to throw attacks at them in the process of moving up the stage. Sped up, it moves much quicker than Rainbow Cruise ever does. There's also the issue of the hazards, easily avoided in general but can be knocked into them by attacks which otherwise aren't kill shots. With the speed at which they send you flying and the potential for hitting them off-screen, teching them is as much luck as it is skill. I'm on the fence on whether I consider it CP or banworthy.

*shrug* Doesn't mean a whole lot coming from me anyway.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't see the virtue in reducing the number just for the sake of it. It's honestly not hard to keep track of 11 stages, especially when the game comes with a nice, built-in tally sheet (the random stage select menu). It would also be trivial to make paper tally sheets where you just took turns marking off the stages you didn't want. The time consumed doing this would be pretty minimal too.

By the "spikes" I assume you mean the arrows (and not the actual spikes that don't kill even over 300%). I can just say that it's very rare for them to ever kill below 100%, and they are the "worst" drawing anyway. The comparison to WarioWare is really odd given that, were there no rewards for the microgames, WarioWare would be a candidate for neutrality itself (it's a really sad case of a small thing ruining a good level). I play a whole lot on this level (given that I play by these rules when I'm playing online), and I can really say that the stage honestly almost never screws anyone. It just doesn't happen.

You are saying during an actual match that's what happens on Rainbow Cruise, and that's what you would expect to happen. However, in practice, that doesn't really seem to happen. We did try matchups like Mr. Game & Watch vs Bowser and really fought, and Bowser didn't seem to be having any more trouble than he would usually have (granted, that's substantial trouble, but that's just a function of Bowser sucking). The most striking thing is that you notice when really playing that the "limited" landing room is actually really substantial and is pretty much never actually limiting; you always have multiple options about where to go at any given time.

We did the same sort of testing on Rumble Falls. It's reasonable to gimp people during speed up with clever spikes and such, but really, it wasn't unfair. Also, the things (other than incompetence) that tend to get you killed there are really character mobility independent. R.O.B. being spiked very close to the bottom has little advantage over Bowser; most real match circumstances would either kill both or let both live.

Also, if for some reason reducing the number were really preferable, wouldn't it make sense to run the 11 neutral system for a while in a few venues and see what actually gets taken out first and then remove the four most commonly excluded stages? You might be surprised at what would get removed; I'd expect to see Final Destination and Lylat Cruise being removed more often than either Pokemon Stadium.

 

[Mr.E]

I'm no FD advocate, but I've never understood the Lylat hate. The edges are less "gimpable" than FD or even the Stadiums and the back-and-forth tilting is slow and predictable.

Just a quick glance at PS1, the increased prevalence of wall infinities (if only temporary), the added annoyance of the new windmill, and the now gimp-happy ledges make me think twice about considering it neutral as it was in Melee.

I would disagree with your assessments for the PS2 Electric and Wind transformations. Getting back to the ground is easier said than done on the Wind stage and even then your opponent is liable to be way above you. Even grounded short hops can fling you halfway up the stage, right past your opponent again. It's not so much buffing aerial combat as it is making it difficult to engage in combat at all. As far as the Electric stage is concerned, the triple-stacked vertical nature of the central platform area essentially makes an impenetrable campfest for the first person who can get on ground level in the center. Ground approaches are impossible with the conveyor belts, often leaving less mobile characters stuck to the ledge for the duration, and the low central platform protects the camper from the air.

By the "spikes" I assume you mean the arrows (and not the actual spikes that don't kill even over 300%). I can just say that it's very rare for them to ever kill below 100%, and they are the "worst" drawing anyway. The comparison to WarioWare is really odd given that, were there no rewards for the microgames, WarioWare would be a candidate for neutrality itself (it's a really sad case of a small thing ruining a good level). I play a whole lot on this level (given that I play by these rules when I'm playing online), and I can really say that the stage honestly almost never screws anyone. It just doesn't happen.

Eh, it was the best I could do. PictoChat transformations, like the WW microgames and rewards, are random and can't really be planned around. Since some of them also tend to disrupt gameplay (the 1/4 or so that contain deadly hazards and/or promote extreme camping) that randomness in stage transformations can be seen as a bad thing because you can't plan around them like you could, say, staying away from edge campers during the second area of Castle Siege.

 

[Yuna]

I don't know what you're smoking if you've "rarely been killed by the PictoChat spears below 100%". Or do you play only super-heavy weights?

As for Lylat Cruise, its edges are much worse than FD's. How are Lylat Cruise's edges better than FD's? If you're under Lylat Cruise and at the wrong angle, most of the time, you die.

Sure, on FD, you can die by Up B:ing into the "lip" sad well but that's your fault. Very few characters have Up Bs that are so entirely vertical they can't just Reverse Up B in order to grab onto the edge (since we can now grab edges on backturn). I think Kirby's the only character who cannot grab the edge on backturn after doing Up B, but then again, he has 5 jumps.

On FD, if you get hit into the stage, you can tech. On Lylat Cruise, if you're hit so you fly off to around the middle of it (and below it), as most characters, you're dead.

 

[Mr.E]

More often than not people fail to tech stage spikes anyway, bar extremely obvious and telegraphed attempts to do so like a DK cargo throw into it, and even then... :/ It's generally unexpected and takes too fast of a reaction time unless you're prepped in advance. (And then why not just dodge the actual attack?) Getting knocked into such a position on Lylat Cruise is rare, oftentimes being knocked just under the ledge or clear to the other side, and you CAN tech the bottom of the stage. Getting "lipped" on Lylat is pretty hit-or-miss compared to the regularity of FD.

At any rate, I hesitate to say it's always the player's fault getting stuck under the lip. It's not very forgiving when you're coming from underneath especially, just barely missing "in" leaves you stuck under the lip anyway and going even a smidgen too far "out" can lead you to being too far away to grab the ledge. Numerous Up-B attacks require split-second fingering for the perfect precision and a few don't even have the precision innately that sometimes it's just unavoidable. Even if I were to agree with you that every case is preventable, it's undeniable that lip kills on FD (or the Stadiums) would've been ledge grabs on any other stage. Why should we have to put up with it in the first place?

In other news, FD also severely favors characters with strong projectile games. I would shake its babies if it had any.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I play as Mr. Game & Watch who is the second lightest member of the cast... Unless using DI is cheating, I rarely die to those arrows below 100%. Maybe part of my momentum is wasted slamming into the side of the arrow (most hits on the arrows happen from below; hitting the top of the arrow is almost always you being dumb), but I can only describe what I see in real matches here. They really do not tend to kill at below 100%. Later on I might do some more scientific testing on those arrows, but it's hard to do careful testing on just one PictoChat transformation.

I'm not saying that Final Destination would be struck for the ledges so much as the projectile issues. If I were using a character without a good projectile game (like, you know, half the cast), I'd strike Final Destination every time. I wasn't really even saying that the stage didn't deserve starter status so much as making a guess as per, of the 11 stages I listed, which ones would be among the least common four to make it to being the last stage left.

Also, about lips on the stadiums, I pretty much never see anyone die to the lip on Stadium 2 since it's really far down. Stadium 2 and Stadium 1 have entirely different ledges; you can't group them together.

 

[Yuna]

More often than not people fail to tech stage spikes anyway, bar extremely obvious and telegraphed attempts to do so like a DK cargo throw into it, and even then... :/ It's generally unexpected and takes too fast of a reaction time unless you're prepped in advance. (And then why not just dodge the actual attack?) Getting knocked into such a position on Lylat Cruise is rare, oftentimes being knocked just under the ledge or clear to the other side, and you CAN tech the bottom of the stage. Getting "lipped" on Lylat is pretty hit-or-miss compared to the regularity of FD.

Inconsequential. You can tech stage spikes. You can't "tech" getting hit into a spot on Lylat Cruise where you're dead meat. And also, what does it matter if you can tech off the bottom of the sides if your Up B won't let you recover all the way to the ledge, anyway?

I'm not saying Lylat Cruise sucks. I'm saying, there's no logical in berating FD's Lip and then saying "Lylat Cruise should get more love".

At any rate, I hesitate to say it's always the player's fault getting stuck under the lip. It's not very forgiving when you're coming from underneath especially, just barely missing "in" leaves you stuck under the lip anyway and going even a smidgen too far "out" can lead you to being too far away to grab the ledge. Numerous Up-B attacks require split-second fingering for the perfect precision and a few don't even have the precision innately that sometimes it's just unavoidable. Even if I were to agree with you that every case is preventable, it's undeniable that lip kills on FD (or the Stadiums) would've been ledge grabs on any other stage. Why should we have to put up with it in the first place?

Recovering into the stage on Lylat Cruise kills too. It's not the fault of the stages. It's the fault of the recoverer for not aiming right. So what if it requires "split-second" timing (as if it's really that hard to recover on the Lip of FD)? It's your fault if you can't do.

And still: It's easier to recover on FD's lip than from below Lylat Cruise because it's almost impossible to end up in such a way below FD bar being spiked or stage spiked that you cannot recover since you can always air control away from it and then (or without the air control) do a reverse Up B. On Lylat Cruise, if you're hit/forced to recover in a such a way you're at certain points below the stage, recovery is literally impossible.

Neither stage is perfect. FD's better for recovery, though. How is Lylat Cruise better, in any way? There's no lip, but there's no solid way to let you recover alongside it like Battlefield either.

 

[Mr.E]

Lylat Cruise is better because getting "lipped" by FD is more common than being knocked to an awkward position underneath the near-center of LC.

And to go off-topic, I tire of your "well it can be done" mentality. Not absolutely everything possible can be mastered to perfection, difficult IS a relevant factor at the highest levels (of difficulty). Even the relatively easy task of teching stage spikes is rarely done due to the surprise that usually accompanies one and the reaction time required to do it -- you nearly have to predict it, in which case you'd just take action to avoid being stage spiked in the first place.

 

[Oracle]

I find it pretty easy to recover from final destination without getting "lipped". Eventually, you get used to the timing for your specific main to recover perfectly. The only problem is that it makes recoveries a little more predictable and easier to edgehog.

With such a strong, concise argument that's backed up with so much evidence, I'm surprised that no one has responded to you

Seriously, you just said "blah blah blah I don't like rumble falls and stadium 2 you're stupid". What kind of an argument is that? Xiivi and AA went well out of their way to test every stage and make a case for all of them, but you just piss on them by saying that?

The more I play PictoChat, the more I agree with AA and Xiivi. In fact, in its current form I 100% agree with this stage ban list (an earlier version which I had a few problems with was changed and conveniently addressed them!). Rumble Falls is seriously not broken; it scrolls in one direction and there aren't even walk-offs. But you wouldn't have noticed that argument as you were too busy thinking "i don't like scrolling stages I must piss on AA!". Stadium 2 is also fair in my opinion; I would have understood counterpick but neutral is great. The flying part isn't broken, the siding platforms aren't terrible, the ice is fun and strategic and gives trippers some more gimping powers (yay ice), and you can't infinite the ground wall. Oh, but since at first glance it didn't look right the case for it must be so bad that you don't even back up your post. GG.

"It's pretty well understood" is never a logical argument. It's simply a repeat of what some people think. PictoChat really isn't terribly flawed; I've played on it a lot and I've never had the stage mess me up.

By "its pretty well understood", I meant that I've never read a stage list with that as neutral before. I was surprised and in the middle of typing my argument, I had to leave. Rumble falls turns the game into less of fighting and more of a race. Imagine DK vs. Sonic, where it says "speed up". DK is probably going to die because of poor vertical recovery, while sonic can basically mash Up B and win.

Stadium 2 isn't broken, but it has walls, the electric part greatly distracts from gameplay, flying part benefits people who are good in the air (toon link), etc. It just gives out some large advantages.

Pictochat and Delphino have walls, promoting wall infinites. Everytime my brothers (who suck, by the way) force me to play on Pictochat, I switch to dedede or fox and wall infinite them. Then they stop playing because I'm "Being gay".

 

[petrie911]

How good of a stage is Luigi's Mansion for King Dedede? If it's not a very advantageous stage for him, I can see it replacing Pictochat. As I mentioned before, the strikeout system means that your starter stages can have biases towards characters as long as said biases don't all go in the same direction. While Pictochat adds another Dedede-favorable stage to the list, if he doesn't like Luigi's Mansion, that may be a better choice. It would also stop all this argument about Pictochat.

Also, I'm starting to have doubts about Pictochat after the Diagonal line + 2 eyes phase gimped my recovery. I'm going for the left edge and it got drawn in right as I was ^B ing to the stage. Almost as bad as that time Palkia reversed controls on my opponent right as he was ^B ing to the stage so he went the wrong way. Not that Spear Pillar will ever be allowed.

 

[MysticKenji]

... fox and wall infinite them. ...

Fox does not have a wall infinite.

 

[Yuna]

Lylat Cruise is better because getting "lipped" by FD is more common than being knocked to an awkward position underneath the near-center of LC.

Only due to human error.

Let's say the opponent just stage spiked you by hitting you into the stage on Final Destination and you didn't wall tech. Well, if you had been playing on Lylat Cruise instead, chances are, you'd be equally dead. At mid-percentages, you'd fly off to the middle of under the stage and die because your recovery ain't that angleable. At higher percentages, you might still die because you can't really DI upwards to recover since you'd then hit the ceilingl (and have to ceiling tech in order to not outright die, anyway). You'd have to, thus, DI towards the other side of the stage and hope your recovery is good enough to make it back there. Not to mention that you can get stage spiked on Battlefield as well, so Stage Spiking into the wall doesn't really apply here unless you wanna remove Battlefield from Random as well.

The only reason why you get caught by the lip "more often" is because a lot of people haven't learned to handle the lip. On Lylat Cruise, everyone can blatantly see the edges and that they can't just randomly Up B straight into the ceiling and survive. On FD, people still think they can Up B however they want and still survive. In other words, it's due to human error on the part of the one recovering alone most of the time.

The lip = Bad for people who don't know how to handle it, just like Lylat Cruise is bad for people who don't know how to handle it. Human error because of unfamiliarity with a stage was never a good reason for removing a stage from Random.

And to go off-topic, I tire of your "well it can be done" mentality. Not absolutely everything possible can be mastered to perfection, difficult IS a relevant factor at the highest levels (of difficulty). Even the relatively easy task of teching stage spikes is rarely done due to the surprise that usually accompanies one and the reaction time required to do it -- you nearly have to predict it, in which case you'd just take action to avoid being stage spiked in the first place.

It's not even hard, which is why I employed the "It can be done"-mentality here. All you need to know is when to recover how. It's the same on Lylat Cruise, only there, it's blatantly obvious every time instead of you just having to learn to judge the distance between you and the stage.

If you wanna be safe, you can just Reverse Up B every single time. Less safe against edgeguarding? Yah, sure. But it's your own **** fault for not learning how to correctly gauge your distance from the lip to begin with since it's not even that hard, it just requires a little practice.

Also, stage spiking, still possible on Battlefield. Stage Spiking has never bene a reason to remove stages from random since Stage Spiking could be done in Melee to a majority (in fact, every single one besides Battlefield) of the stages on Random.

 

[Mr.E]

Also, I'm starting to have doubts about Pictochat after the Diagonal line + 2 eyes phase gimped my recovery. I'm going for the left edge and it got drawn in right as I was ^B ing to the stage. Almost as bad as that time Palkia reversed controls on my opponent right as he was ^B ing to the stage so he went the wrong way. Not that Spear Pillar will ever be allowed.

One time I got knocked off the right side of the stage and got gimped by the wind-blowing face getting drawn in my way. ;( It happens.

 

[Oracle]

Fox does not have a wall infinite.

It's a semi infinite with his shine if you get the button presses just right. It may only work on the diagonal wall, though. Besides, there's plenty of others with wall infinites.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I was playing a match yesterday on PictoChat as Jigglypuff and the arrows conveniently came up. I threw myself into them at around 90% and lived...

Where is this 60% killing range coming from? If the only source of your momentum is the arrow, I don't see how you are ever going to die at 60%.

 

[Yuna]

Who ever claimed you die at 60%?

 

[Mr.E]

My apparently faulty figure, but I'm not the one arguing it should be banned either.

 

[Ulevo]

Something just occurred to me today, and I decided to test it out. On Rumble Falls, Meta Knight (and Kirby) has a large advantage in that he can use his UThrow pretty much anywhere on that level and start killing with it at about 60%. Also, Meta Knight is able to UThrow into the first large spike and will effectively kill if spaced properly so the user of the throw doesn't fly off. This is a much more rare occurrence, as one would need to grab in the middle of the stage, but it is something to note.

I'm not sure if this is ban worthy because of it, but it's worth mentioning in case it was missed.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That seems like a small character advantage in the same vein as the Ganoncide tricks on Norfair and Brinstar.

Anyway, I had a discussion in real life over this list, and what it came down to was Corneria. What do you guys think of the level and the possibilities of wall infinites versus everything else it has that's actually pretty fine? I really can't say that it's easy for me to speak unbiased about it since I've hated every Star Fox level in the smash series, but it's the ban we have that I feel the least sure about.

I suppose we also argued a bit about the Pirate Ship (and he proved that Pikachu can counter water stalling!), but I'm feeling pretty sure about that one.

 

[Ulevo]

Corneria is a definite ban in my books. There is no avoiding the wall in any circumstance. Once a stock or percent lead is given, players will camp there, and there are too many infinites/locks that lead to stock kills. Camping underneath the ship near the gun is also an issue. I love the stage, but I don't see ways around that problem.