Alabama Thread! (10/26/2016 update)

[Zylo]

New Melee Power Ranking is also officially out today:

1. Big Time Rush
2. Joot's Luigi
3. Joot's Ganon
4. Alex16
5. Moogle
6. Dron
7. Big Time Rush
8. Big Time Rush
9. Zylo
10. Jackets
11. Sweaters
Last. Zoma

 

[rolfcopter]

New Melee Power Ranking is also officially out today:

1. Big Time Rush
2. Joot's Luigi
3. Joot's Ganon
4. Alex16
5. Moogle
6. Dron
7. Big Time Rush
8. Big Time Rush
9. Zylo
10. Jackets
11. Sweaters
Last. Zoma

I agree with this for the most part except there is no Bob on the list

 

[Mahgnittoc]

Also j00t ain't ****

 

[S£NPAI]

Where's Phantom Thief?

 

[theONEjanitor]

customs, stage hazards, and 3 stock meta in place of 2 stock meta are all things that benefit the worse player in the matchup and, to varying degrees, all discourage people from learning how to play the game better. In my view, things that specifically benefit the worse player are anti-competitive. (lots of basic mechanics in the game even do this) Customs are almost invariably gimmicky wacky moves that generally only work due to player inexperience, they don't add depth to the game, they artificially inflate some people's chance of winning by a little bit by adding an unfamiliar gimmick or by making some combo exist that didn't before. And in fact if they did anything more than that they'd be overpowered. Customs don't improve game knowledge or spacing or decision making, so a custom that is considered "good", by definition benefits the players who are worse at those things. Beyond this, most customs make the game look janky and stupid as hell, and this is a more minor point, but I think the game not looking like brawl minus is important to it being taken seriously by the media and the fighting game world. Also customs naturally increase the length of tournaments unless every single set up has standard movesets pre-set up.
Stage hazards have the exact same effect on gameplay as items. Even hazards that aren't technically "random" end up being random because you can not predict what situation the fight will be in when a stage hazard becomes active. Randomness always benefits the worse player. Even minor dynamics such as the moving platforms in Smashville and Town and City benefits the worse player, making things like recovery and combos easier at random times during the match or providing easier kills at random times. But the smash community loves having a bunch of legal stages for some reason.
2 stock meta forces you to develop quick adaptation skills, and forces you to learn how to stay alive longer and how to quickly take stocks. Arguably these are things you should be learning anyway, therefore 3 stocks only benefits players that aren't good at these skills. and of course 3 stock tournaments just take way longer.

 

[Zoma]

It's starting to look like people don't really enjoy 3 stock customs.

 

[Sweaters]

I'm probably going to do what someone suggested to me on Facebook and use the big house rule set for mine for this one.

 

[Zonderion]

customs, stage hazards, and 3 stock meta in place of 2 stock meta are all things that benefit the worse player in the matchup and, to varying degrees, all discourage people from learning how to play the game better. In my view, things that specifically benefit the worse player are anti-competitive. (lots of basic mechanics in the game even do this) Customs are almost invariably gimmicky wacky moves that generally only work due to player inexperience, they don't add depth to the game, they artificially inflate some people's chance of winning by a little bit by adding an unfamiliar gimmick or by making some combo exist that didn't before. And in fact if they did anything more than that they'd be overpowered. Customs don't improve game knowledge or spacing or decision making, so a custom that is considered "good", by definition benefits the players who are worse at those things. Beyond this, most customs make the game look janky and stupid as hell, and this is a more minor point, but I think the game not looking like brawl minus is important to it being taken seriously by the media and the fighting game world. Also customs naturally increase the length of tournaments unless every single set up has standard movesets pre-set up.
Stage hazards have the exact same effect on gameplay as items. Even hazards that aren't technically "random" end up being random because you can not predict what situation the fight will be in when a stage hazard becomes active. Randomness always benefits the worse player. Even minor dynamics such as the moving platforms in Smashville and Town and City benefits the worse player, making things like recovery and combos easier at random times during the match or providing easier kills at random times. But the smash community loves having a bunch of legal stages for some reason.
2 stock meta forces you to develop quick adaptation skills, and forces you to learn how to stay alive longer and how to quickly take stocks. Arguably these are things you should be learning anyway, therefore 3 stocks only benefits players that aren't good at these skills. and of course 3 stock tournaments just take way longer.

Sounds like a bunch of Johns to me. Either you deal with it or you don't. End of story.

If you can't force your opponent into a bad stage position when a hazard (or a platform) is coming then maybe you are the worse player.

If you don't want to memorize different match ups based on custom moves, then maybe you are lazy and are the worse player. How is this any different then learning a matchup from a whole new character?

If you are actually the better player, then it shouldn't matter if its 2 stocks or 99 stocks. More stocks don't benefit the worse player.

The one point I do agree on though is that random can benefit either player to a detrimental degree. This can allow the worse player to win because of a random item spawn, or if a stage hazard is random.

The other point that I also can agree on is the fact that customs can be whacky. Since Sakurai refuses to patch them, exploits, infintes and the such shouldn't be used in tournaments, but without regulation, the only way that will happen is to ban customs.

 

[Mahgnittoc]

Having less stocks does not benefit the best player. If there is a good enough skill gap between the players and you add more stocks you'll see how big the gap is. That's kinda the concept behind crew battles too since you want to manipulate your stocks so they last longer.

You can also compare this to something like high school basketball vs NBA. In HS the rules are the same but the way the clock is ran is set up for it to be a faster game since there's a chance of one team getting super bopped. But the NBA has better clock management.

For the stage arguement I don't get how you say Smashvilles platform is random and aids the worse player. In general a bad player is less aware of what's around him. The better player will have some type of idea of where the platform is and what they can do with it. I think this goes for all hazards that aren't fully random. If you have done foresight you can force the stage hazards to help you. But that would still be unfair since it's not really using your own tools to prove you are a better player.

I'm highly in favor of more stocks compared to less because it gives you time to feel out the other player. If you're going to get completely bopped then the stocks doesn't matter. But if two players are about equal on skill level then more stocks will give the game to whichever player is stronger mentally. Too me smash isn't just about the fight. There's also a strong mental aspect to the game. It's about adaptation and innovation. Shortening the stock count lessens how much you have to do both of those points

 

[Zoma]

Since Sakurai refuses to patch them, exploits, infintes and the such shouldn't be used in tournaments, but without regulation, the only way that will happen is to ban customs.

Pretty sure that's what people are suggesting.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Sounds like a bunch of Johns to me. Either you deal with it or you don't. End of story.

If you can't force your opponent into a bad stage position when a hazard (or a platform) is coming then maybe you are the worse player.

If you don't want to memorize different match ups based on custom moves, then maybe you are lazy and are the worse player. How is this any different then learning a matchup from a whole new character?

If you are actually the better player, then it shouldn't matter if its 2 stocks or 99 stocks. More stocks don't benefit the worse player.

The one point I do agree on though is that random can benefit either player to a detrimental degree. This can allow the worse player to win because of a random item spawn, or if a stage hazard is random.

The other point that I also can agree on is the fact that customs can be whacky. Since Sakurai refuses to patch them, exploits, infintes and the such shouldn't be used in tournaments, but without regulation, the only way that will happen is to ban customs.

You can not predict what the dynamic of a match is going to be when a stage element comes into play. When smashville platform comes by, you don't know where you are going to be. However, if you happen (by pure random luck, and nothing else) to be recovering. congratulations, the game just helped you recover. It's exactly the same as if an item happened to spawn above you that helped you recover. This is pure random luck, and random luck only benefits the worse player (because the better player does not need help from the game to win). I don't think this makes smashville ban worthy (i mean i personally think only static stages should be played but it's not a big deal) but it's part of why smash brothers is such a janky game series overall when compared to other games that weren't designed by a guy who wants everyone to win. The smashville platform is literally designed to help the worse player, that's why it moves, because someone might get lucky and use it to their advantage. it's designed to shake up the game and make it a little weird.
Your point about customs is fair. I just think they are gimmicky and don't add any competitive depth to the game. The 'good' ones make a character a little better, which means a person has to try less hard to win, and only the worse player in any given matchup benefits from that. It's in the game, but since we have the ability to disallow them I find that to be better for competition. but, as you say, a good player will learn how to fight these new strategies so -shrug-.

the 2 stock vs 3 stock discussion I think could be very in depth. and I think it depends on personal view about the theory of what smash should be maybe. I like the 2 stock meta much more, it makes stocks actually matter, and it makes players want to play well so they can protect their precious stocks. players that are bad at staying alive or bad at taking stocks are punished much harder. it forces players to adapt very quickly (which i argue is a skill that great players have anyway), and I feel like in most 3 stock matches, you already can guess who's going to win halfway through the match and you're just waiting for the match to be over. I feel like more stocks just allows more opportunities for random weird stuff to happen. but I think this is very subjective I guess

 

[Mahgnittoc]

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with it. It's like in your ideal world Smashvilles wouldn't be legal because it's not static. The moving platform is an uncontrolled variable that could effect death. I think that's a bad mindset because it discredits the player having knowledge of a really well designed map that is not out to kill or effect the game negatively. Like, you can't just say that the platform is effecting the game where no player has control and it comes down to luck that it's in the spot that it's in. The players need to be smart enough to adapt throughout the entire match. That's why combos at 5% don't work at 50%. To be truly great at this game you need to be able to control the map at all times and the slow moving platform on Smashville can be controlled easily.

 

[Keet]

I agree with everything you said theONEjanitor minus the stock count and some of your arguments on stage hazards.

I think objectively having more stocks benefits the better player. A bad player can get lucky and take an early lead, but the better player is the one that usually adapts to the situation and slowly gains the lead. With two stocks the better player has less of a chance to outplay the other.

That being said, I think that two stocks is absolutely sufficient for smash 4. It allows for a good player to download the worse player with a full stock cushion. In a perfect world every tournament would be 99 stocks, because objectively that would be the most accurate way to see which player can outplay the other, but since we want to take in to account tournament length and viewer appeal I think two is definitely sufficient.

As for your stage hazard argument I completely agree with. Why are Castle Siege and Halberd legal when they are full of stage hazards that straight up get in the way of skilled play? This goes for Delfino and all the other stages where someone can die because of getting too close to an edge. Melee has 6 stages that are legal and they are doing fine. We don't need more stages at the cost of losing competitive value.

That also being said, we need to use our best judgement to determine if a stage's hazards are bad enough to make the stage illegal in tournament. Keep in mind in melee we have Randall, moving platforms on FOD, and Whispy Willow, and stage transformations on Pokemon Stadium.

As for the current popularly accepted Smash 4 stage list I would argue that the stage hazards on Town and City, Lylat, and Duck Hunt do not affect the competitive aspect enough to officially ban them. However I personally always ban Castle Siege and Halberd immediately just because I know I could die because of some random stage transformation rather than losing it to my opponent.

 

[DanGR]

Objectively speaking, the only random thing about smashville is the balloons. (And I guess starting positions too, but that applies everywhere) If you pay attention to the map you can pretty easily get around the balloon messing with hitlag and absorbing ness' recovery, flare blitz, and the like.

The platform always starts on the right side, and takes the same 20 second path back to its original starting position. If you can't manipulate this platform timing to help you, or you see this skill as luck, then you just need to get better. It's really that simple. The same thing applies to other dynamic stage elements that the Alabama community loves to complain about. It's no more random than two bad players spamming smash attacks and one getting the first hit. If you don't take the different stage elements into account in your decision making, it will certainly feel random.

That said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to ban stages like Delphino/castle siege on the grounds that you simply prefer more static stages because you want competitions to test the skill of 'manipulating characters' rather than 'manipulating stages'. This would put traveling players at a huge disadvantage though.

Edit: halberd claw targeting is random and is a big issue, imo. The frame trap kill setups can be quite silly.

 

[Zonderion]

You can not predict what the dynamic of a match is going to be when a stage element comes into play. When smashville platform comes by, you don't know where you are going to be. However, if you happen (by pure random luck, and nothing else) to be recovering. congratulations, the game just helped you recover. It's exactly the same as if an item happened to spawn above you that helped you recover. This is pure random luck, and random luck only benefits the worse player (because the better player does not need help from the game to win). I don't think this makes smashville ban worthy (i mean i personally think only static stages should be played but it's not a big deal) but it's part of why smash brothers is such a janky game series overall when compared to other games that weren't designed by a guy who wants everyone to win. The smashville platform is literally designed to help the worse player, that's why it moves, because someone might get lucky and use it to their advantage. it's designed to shake up the game and make it a little weird.
Your point about customs is fair. I just think they are gimmicky and don't add any competitive depth to the game. The 'good' ones make a character a little better, which means a person has to try less hard to win, and only the worse player in any given matchup benefits from that. It's in the game, but since we have the ability to disallow them I find that to be better for competition. but, as you say, a good player will learn how to fight these new strategies so -shrug-.

the 2 stock vs 3 stock discussion I think could be very in depth. and I think it depends on personal view about the theory of what smash should be maybe. I like the 2 stock meta much more, it makes stocks actually matter, and it makes players want to play well so they can protect their precious stocks. players that are bad at staying alive or bad at taking stocks are punished much harder. it forces players to adapt very quickly (which i argue is a skill that great players have anyway), and I feel like in most 3 stock matches, you already can guess who's going to win halfway through the match and you're just waiting for the match to be over. I feel like more stocks just allows more opportunities for random weird stuff to happen. but I think this is very subjective I guess

While I agree that you can't predict when and where you'll be when a platform is there or isn't there, the ability to know your surroundings to a degree where you can try and set up a platform combo as the platform is coming by is an advantage to the better player.

Both players have an equal opportunity to have that platform assist in recoveries and in killing combos. If the platform migrated towards the losing player, then I would agree that it benefits the worse player. But it doesn't. Because the platform is not biased in how it moves, then you can't say that it particularly benefits a certain player over another.

That makes sense with the 2 stock vs 3 stock. It makes each stock more valuable and does reward the player who can protect their stock better. It also rewards the player that can adapt faster.

 

[Keet]

Objectively speaking, the only random thing about smashville is the balloons. (And I guess starting positions too, but that applies everywhere) If you pay attention to the map you can pretty easily get around the balloon messing with hitlag and absorbing ness' recovery, flare blitz, and the like.

The platform always starts on the right side, and takes the same 20 second path back to its original starting position. If you can't manipulate this platform timing to help you, or you see this skill as luck, then you just need to get better. It's really that simple. The same thing applies to other dynamic stage elements that the Alabama community loves to complain about. It's no more random than two bad players spamming smash attacks and one getting the first hit. If you don't take the different stage elements into account in your decision making, it will certainly feel random.

That said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to ban stages like Delphino/castle siege on the grounds that you simply prefer more static stages because you want competitions to test the skill of 'manipulating characters' rather than manipulating stages. This would put traveling players at a huge disadvantage though.

Edit: halberd claw targeting is random and is a big issue, imo. The frame trap kill setups can be quite silly.

I do want to iterate though that while I disagree with the current stage list, I in no way think HASL should change theirs just because of our preference. My issues with the stages are more with the accepted stage list on a national level. HASL, in my opinion, should be following what is widely accepted in the more active areas of Smash.

 

[DanGR]

I do want to iterate though that while I disagree with the current stage list, I in no way think HASL should change theirs just because of our preference. My issues with the stages are more with the accepted stage list on a national level. HASL, in my opinion, should be following what is widely accepted in the more active areas of Smash.

I agree with this mindset to an extent. It helps our players to be able to practice in the same environment as that of regional/national tournaments. Total standardization isn't really necessary though, imo. For example, I don't think stock count changes the way you practice the game. You're not at a disadvantage practicing with 3 stocks, and then traveling to 2-stock tournaments. I'll always advocate 3 stock over 2 at our HASL events.

 

[moogle]

HASLfest 12 results! http://smashboards.com/threads/haslfest-12-wiiu-melee-pm-9-19-2015-huntsville-al.418348/

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

Well. I just figured out Pichu has the most base knock back out of any f-smash in the game. I will most likely convince my c-stick spamming friends to main him.


Also, where's PhantomThief in those power rankings

 

[Saki-]

Qtr 1 Exams done, most likely spoiling myself with going forward with my PS4 purchase that I've been putting off forever. Talking with SoulRobba/Henry kinda made me want to partake in the FG part of the state, though I'll probably only do GG. I've got sights on a Hori fight stick, but wondering if I should just put aside some more money and get the TE MadKatz thingy instead. ;-;

 

[GeorgeTHPS]

Okay guys, new plan: drop Smash for Wii U and play Rivals of Aether. This game is legit better.

 

[Mahgnittoc]

aka George is salty

 

[GeorgeTHPS]

I don't care what I am. I'm enjoying good games.

 

[Flame Blade 2]

I don't think George is salty, it's pretty tough to find games better than smash 4.

 

[theONEjanitor]

GEO i am 100% down for switching to rivals of aether

 

[Strider755]

I am serious. Since Smash 4 is the last game, I don't mind the stock count, considering it wont hold the other tournaments up. Although I would prefer two stocks just to move things at a slightly quicker pace. But Smash 4 rules have slowly become more and more standardized as time has moved on and I don't know of any national that allows customs to be legal.

I don't think it necessarily hurts the tournament outcome now, but I've heard many out of state players scoff at our use of customs and previously our stage list as well (though I haven't heard any stage list complaints in a while).

And just from a personal perspective, if the rest of the country bans customs and we still have them legal, I feel like it would undermine our legitimacy a bit.

I thought EVO used the Custom Move project with the pre-made sets. The biggest reason a lot of the nationals ban customs is because of the difficulty of unlocking them on the Wii U, and getting sets on all the setups.

 

[Mahgnittoc]

No. They're banning them because generally people are seeing that outside of a few cases on the lower end of skill sets, customs are not doing anything for the players. Using customs does not make up for lack of skill and really isn't making these lack luster characters any better. But that's not a reason to ban honestly. It's more so people now saying I don't want to deal with this. And I do agree that I don't want to deal with customs like how I had to on Saturday where someone made me wait 10 minutes to play on his system with his customs

 

[Pudding009]

Press Start Tournament http://smashboards.com/threads/oct-4-2015-press-start-smash-4-tournament-alabaster-al.418541/

 

[rolfcopter]

im not gonna go

 

[Zonderion]

I'm gonna try and make it. Do they need any extra setups?

 

[Keet]

Yo Sweaters I'll be at Birmingham Brawl so expect two setups from me!

 

[Shenanigan]

That venue fee is extortion

 

[Zonderion]

Press Start Tournament http://smashboards.com/threads/oct-4-2015-press-start-smash-4-tournament-alabaster-al.418541/

I agree. Venue fee is pretty hefty. See if you can get the owner to drop it to 5. He's going to get a lot of advertising from the smash tournament. I think that's worth $5 a person.

 

[Keet]

Zonderion There's no way in hell Dennis is going to drop the venue fee. I can almost guarantee that.

BTW Im bringing a Rocket League setup to Birmingham Brawl as well, but I don't have a third TV... Anyone able to bring a low-input-lag HD TV?

 

[Zoma]

Maybe don't give him your business then.

 

[Pudding009]

I will talk to him you guys and also Sweaters I will also bringing a setup maybe two if I can convince my roommate.

 

[DanGR]

Anyone in Huntsville wanna carpool to Birmingham Brawl tomorrow?

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

Zonderion There's no way in hell Dennis is going to drop the venue fee. I can almost guarantee that.

BTW Im bringing a Rocket League setup to Birmingham Brawl as well, but I don't have a third TV... Anyone able to bring a low-input-lag HD TV?

If you find a tv, we playin bo5

 

[LilBigham]

Zonderion There's no way in hell Dennis is going to drop the venue fee. I can almost guarantee that.

BTW Im bringing a Rocket League setup to Birmingham Brawl as well, but I don't have a third TV... Anyone able to bring a low-input-lag HD TV?

Hey, I have an extra TV that I can bring along with our Smash setups if you still need one for Rocket League.

 

[Keet]

LilBigham Please do! Thanks man!