Air Tripping - Now without video proof (yet again)...

[Hitaku]

I was told by Simna a while back that he may have air tripped with Ness. This was shortly after he got the game, so he may have mistaken it for something else. Just saying, we may want to add Ness to the list of characters.

 

[Taymond]

Like I said before, I really don't have any knowledge in programming. Because of that I really can't say either way if this platform is valid. However, even if his claim about the phantom platform is wrong, he may be on the right track with tapping the joystick on frame one of the jump. We really don't know what causes air tripping, so all I am suggesting is rather than targeting the weaknesses of a theory, we should try and investigate the possible positive elements of it. I understand that this would still mean Lucas would have a larger number of claims, but like someone said before, maybe the PK fire interferes with the trip.

But why selectively ignore examples that poke glaring holes in the very foundation of a theory? Yuna air tripped twice simply moving while floating. He definitely didn't smash the control stick at the same time as a mid-air jump. So to account for this, you have to extend the definition of our phantom platform. We have to say that during a float, the phantom platform exists for several frames, and moves with Peach, rather than existing for only 1 frame. Peach, therefore, must be "walking" on this platform, I guess? And when you "walk" on a phantom platform, the game displays a unique floating animation.

So now we've got a phantom platform when Peach initiates a full second jump, and another one that appears and stays for a bit once she's reached the peak of that second jump. We've got phantom platforms all over the place, and no evidence to support that floating isn't completely and totally unique from other on-ground movement. It's a "walk" that allows you to do aerials out of it, instead of ground attacks like a normal walk. But we can ignore that and say, instead, that floating is just like walking on a phantom platform. That the game must interpret it as such, despite all of the obvious differences between floating and walking?

So Yuna must've tripped while initiating a dash on the phantom platform. The floating platform must equalize all horizontal "walking" to one speed--it won't let you float-dash. So our phantom platform lets you walk on it, if you're Peach, but if you try to dash, it is aware of the fact that you attempted to dash, but it will not allow you to dash, it will just move forward at "walk" speed, and it will change the walk animation into a floating animation, and also when you try to perform moves on it, you'll do aerials instead of ground moves. Not to mention the fact that no one else can touch this phantom platform while it exists.

Do you see my point? There are so many contingencies you have to basically make up as you go along to try to rectify this theory with the facts we have to go on. This "phantom platform" must be the weirdest thing ever programmed, to have all these ridiculous peculiarities when Peach floats. We can't just ignore Peach because it's convenient to our theory to do so. We have to assume that every apparently-valid testimonial IS valid, and come up with a theory that encapsulates all of them, not some of them.

If a somewhat plausible theory were to arise, I'd be just as behind it as you, Hitaku, but this is not a plausible theory. There are far more than a handful of assumptions you have to accept in order to even begin rectifying this theory with actual fact. You have to tweak it to fit reality. A good theory shouldn't have to be bent so many different ways to fit what it's trying to describe.

I don't hate theories or anything, I just don't like ignoring facts. We cannot make theories based on selective listening. I'd have no problem with saying that through a glitch, the game occasionally accidentally interprets aerial movement as ground movement, allowing it to cause a trip in the air, and the tumble animation is how it chooses to rectify the situation until your character reaches the ground. This theory is just as unfounded as any other one we might make now, but it at least makes some sense. It attempts to explain the irregularity of air trips in a much more believable way. To claim that every aerial movement is logically equivalent to ground movement on a "phantom platform," except that you first have to accept this bucketful of contingencies involving how actions are interpreted on this platform, and then simple SAY that there doesn't exist a discrepancy in the number of reported Air Trips? That, I cannot believe.

 

[Hitaku]

Do you see my point? There are so many contingencies you have to basically make up as you go along to try to rectify this theory with the facts we have to go on. This "phantom platform" must be the weirdest thing ever programmed, to have all these ridiculous peculiarities when Peach floats. .

Reading through your post I understand your point better. I do agree with what you are saying, perhaps I was just looking too hard for a possible solution.

 

[Tofu Beast]

Isn't that Sonic's air dodge?

and that first video looks completely set up.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Isn't that Sonic's air dodge?

and that first video looks completely set up.

Hitaku! You tricked us with your elite video editting skills!!

 

[Barret3B]

I've air tripped with Charizard, stupidest thing ever, I was so mad....

 

[Mushroomring]

I was practicing the infinite jab combo with Sonic on Bowser and bowser air tripped and threw my combo off. I was also messing around in emissary and I got to the part of the forest (i think) where you hit the switch and go up platforms and a ladder. I jumped off the platform at the end of the ladder and air tripped. I tried this about 4 more times and airtripped every time.

 

[Hitaku]

Hitaku! You tricked us with your elite video editting skills!!

Wow, and here I thought my work was flawless. You guys are just too good. =P

I was practicing the infinite jab combo with Sonic on Bowser and bowser air tripped and threw my combo off. I was also messing around in emissary and I got to the part of the forest (i think) where you hit the switch and go up platforms and a ladder. I jumped off the platform at the end of the ladder and air tripped. I tried this about 4 more times and airtripped every time.

I'm just going to throw this out there because I feel like it needs to be asked. Are you really sure that it was an air trip? Seeing as none of us can do it more than once (other than Yuna) 4 times in a row seems extremely unlikely. =/

I really don't remember much of subspace, so is there any way you can go back and check the name of the area? I would really like to try and replicate this.

Edit: What character was this with?

 

[Mushroomring]

I used Sonic. I jumped and then started falling and I couldnt up b or anything. I'll check the stage again in a minute

edit: Yeah its the forest. when you get to the part where you're in a hall with 2 beatle shell guys and a switch to activate some platforms and a ladder. take the ladder up to the platform and try jumping towards the circle thing. if you do it right you'll know what im talking about. I've only gotten this to work with Sonic though and I can still wall jump


Edit2: This only works if you use Sonic's spring to grab the ladder. That might explain it because moving off the ladder has the same effect as the air trip

 

[Yuna]

Sonic does not get his Up B back after grabbing a ladder. Neither do some other characters.

 

[Sterowent]

Alright, Warning: I've read the first, 29th, and 30th page. Taymond is great. I'm no programmer.

Perhaps notable differences in these characters is best to study. Yes, that's been mentioned before, but i might as well list a few thoughts, make an effort to contribute here...

I've not used any of the three most grounded 'confirmed air-trippers' much at all, so not a witness.

Peach: Float. Jigglypuff: Ah...lightest char? Questionable. Sonic: Last to join, a hodgepodge of other character's mechanics, direct change in speed from ground to air transition, in DI.

Maybe a decent question would involve how the game interprets each character from the transition of ground to air, outside of jumps, or, rather, jumps being a medium for something else? Certain levels of set DI, or a change in the 'strength' of character DI settings programmed in to trigger the glitch?

In extremes, that is. After all, from ground to air, things change a lot, but these seem to be special cases...

As for the mechanic itself, if air-tripping were confirmed, it'd be a glitch rather than a purposeful mechanic, i feel. Brawl makes an effort to be somewhat graceful, exception being tripping but even that has a full and quick animation, with a purpose of...laughs(**** you, Sakurai!), and a completely sudden, inescapable tumble interferes with that.

 

[TimeSmash]

I've decided to convert from Tap Jumping to jumping with the Y button (Was much more comfortable with Tap Jumping, but jumping with Y is better, and I'd like to imporve myself)and I was in Training Mode. I was playing Peach, and was floating around holding Y. Eventually the float wore off and I kept using Uair because I was bored. There is a certain frame of timing (not extremely hard to get) where Peach performs the Uair and lands on the ground. For a brief moment, it looks like her tripping animation, right before you choose to roll. It only lasts a few seconds, but if you slow it down, you can see it.

I know this isn't defined as an Air Trip, but the frames where Peach awkwardly lands looks much like she just Tripped. However, she does not roll out of the way. Is there some connection between this and Air Tripping [or its mechanics]? Just remember that unlike Yuna, I STOPPED floating and descended, not in a tumbling animation but a regular descent. There might be some connection but I'm not sure. If this proves out to be a coincidence I'm sorry.

After that, I tried jumping about fifity or sixty more times, and it's true--Air Tripping is extremely rare. I haven't had it happen to me yet. I'm just discussing the landing.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Test this with capt falcon, when he trips he lurches in the direction he was traveling, if he was just starting a dash. Best tried if you try to foxtrot with him. Also, both snake and ROB can move and attack after their up Bs, and neither of them have an odd spinning animation while doing it. I'm not entirely sure about ROB... I don't use him though. I do know that snake has never tripped on me in the air. But I can imagine a scenario where capt falcon trips while dashing to the ledge and falls off? Its never happened to me however.

 

[verditude]

But why selectively ignore examples that poke glaring holes in the very foundation of a theory? Yuna air tripped twice simply moving while floating. He definitely didn't smash the control stick at the same time as a mid-air jump. So to account for this, you have to extend the definition of our phantom platform. We have to say that during a float, the phantom platform exists for several frames, and moves with Peach, rather than existing for only 1 frame. Peach, therefore, must be "walking" on this platform, I guess? And when you "walk" on a phantom platform, the game displays a unique floating animation.

So now we've got a phantom platform when Peach initiates a full second jump, and another one that appears and stays for a bit once she's reached the peak of that second jump. We've got phantom platforms all over the place, and no evidence to support that floating isn't completely and totally unique from other on-ground movement. It's a "walk" that allows you to do aerials out of it, instead of ground attacks like a normal walk. But we can ignore that and say, instead, that floating is just like walking on a phantom platform. That the game must interpret it as such, despite all of the obvious differences between floating and walking?

So Yuna must've tripped while initiating a dash on the phantom platform. The floating platform must equalize all horizontal "walking" to one speed--it won't let you float-dash. So our phantom platform lets you walk on it, if you're Peach, but if you try to dash, it is aware of the fact that you attempted to dash, but it will not allow you to dash, it will just move forward at "walk" speed, and it will change the walk animation into a floating animation, and also when you try to perform moves on it, you'll do aerials instead of ground moves. Not to mention the fact that no one else can touch this phantom platform while it exists.

Do you see my point? There are so many contingencies you have to basically make up as you go along to try to rectify this theory with the facts we have to go on. This "phantom platform" must be the weirdest thing ever programmed, to have all these ridiculous peculiarities when Peach floats. We can't just ignore Peach because it's convenient to our theory to do so. We have to assume that every apparently-valid testimonial IS valid, and come up with a theory that encapsulates all of them, not some of them.

If a somewhat plausible theory were to arise, I'd be just as behind it as you, Hitaku, but this is not a plausible theory. There are far more than a handful of assumptions you have to accept in order to even begin rectifying this theory with actual fact. You have to tweak it to fit reality. A good theory shouldn't have to be bent so many different ways to fit what it's trying to describe.

I don't hate theories or anything, I just don't like ignoring facts. We cannot make theories based on selective listening. I'd have no problem with saying that through a glitch, the game occasionally accidentally interprets aerial movement as ground movement, allowing it to cause a trip in the air, and the tumble animation is how it chooses to rectify the situation until your character reaches the ground. This theory is just as unfounded as any other one we might make now, but it at least makes some sense. It attempts to explain the irregularity of air trips in a much more believable way. To claim that every aerial movement is logically equivalent to ground movement on a "phantom platform," except that you first have to accept this bucketful of contingencies involving how actions are interpreted on this platform, and then simple SAY that there doesn't exist a discrepancy in the number of reported Air Trips? That, I cannot believe.

Here's the thing. Whether or not the game actually creates an invisible platform, the point of the theory is that, on the 1st frame of a double jump, the game evaluates the character as "standing". Twin Dreams's logic has convinced me that the actual platform is unneccesary, and like you said, it creates a ton of stupid contingencies.

Now, Peach's float. I'll go ahead and say it; I have no idea why you'd air trip out of it. Me having any coherent idea of how this occurrs would require a much deeper knowledge of programming than I have. I think your theory that the game interprets aerial movement as ground movement at times makes logical sense, but I don't think that it's a random glitch. I think that the interpretation as ground movement occurs during unrealistic physics scenarios, like double jumping or floating horizontally, which the Havok engine wasn't designed in mind with.

BTW, I don't "claim that every aerial movement is logically equivalent to ground movement on a 'phantom platform'". Just weird physics scenarios like floating and double jumps. And like I said, creating an actual platform is unnecessary.

Final thought: (and this is just for humor) No matter how irrational this theory may seem, it could be worse.

My friend have a theory that tripping is inflicted by invisible bananas that spawn and fall down to the air (which can result in "air tripping" ) so maybe if our theory is correct, a banana could have fallen on you while you were doing up-Smashing? There are many aspects to this theory, there is only one banana at a time on the stage and they have a 5% chance to randomly spawn anywhere above the stage

 

[Twin Dreams]

Once again, they could have made a phantom platform. However, like I and Taymond have pointed out, it just creates a lot of extraneous problems and extra work.


You do make a good point. If Havok wasn't designed for double jumps and floats, then I guess I could see a problem in the engine where a glitch like this would take place. I'm not familiar with Havok programming at all. I'm not even familiar with programming at all in general. (I just drew my conclusions with my basic knowledge and observations)



Anyway, I still think that some characters don't air trip. I also believe that you will NOT air trip if you begin DI'ing, then double jump and return to the stage. Otherwise, it would be more common. Maybe, it was meant to be in the game at an extremely low probability.

I don't know, but I hope we get to the bottom of it! ^_^

 

[Taymond]

I'm not all that familiar with Havok, but I'm willing to gamble that you aren't either, verditude, so how can we talk about what, exactly, Havok was designed for? While it's true that most games that employ Havok physics don't involve an extensive amount of aerial movement options, Havok wasn't really designed specifically for those games. It's just an adaptable physics engine that allows for more realistic movements and ragdoll physics. How Brawl chooses to employ Havok shouldn't really poke such blatant holes in the engine. I mean, Havok is a good engine, as far as I know, and it would seem like such oversights would be made.

I mean.. mid-air jumping isn't really that hard a concept. Like Twin said, it can be as simple is an additional force vector. I just can't see such a reputed and refined physics engine falling apart when dealing with what seems like a relatively simple concept. Hell, Second Life uses Havok physics, and you can fly in SL.

In any event, I don't really think any of us are familiar enough with Havok to begin discussing problems that might be inherent in the Havok engine itself that present themselves in Brawl. I just don't think it's logical to claim that these kind of failures in the Havok engine are in any way regular. I find it hard to believe that any action is regularly misinterpreted by the Havok engine. If that were the case, we would have to see more testimonials. I can't believe that it's anything but an occasional glitch, given the evidence we have right now.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I'm not all that familiar with Havok, but I'm willing to gamble that you aren't either, verditude, so how can we talk about what, exactly, Havok was designed for? While it's true that most games that employ Havok physics don't involve an extensive amount of aerial movement options, Havok wasn't really designed specifically for those games. It's just an adaptable physics engine that allows for more realistic movements and ragdoll physics. How Brawl chooses to employ Havok shouldn't really poke such blatant holes in the engine. I mean, Havok is a good engine, as far as I know, and it would seem like such oversights would be made.

I mean.. mid-air jumping isn't really that hard a concept. Like Twin said, it can be as simple is an additional force vector. I just can't see such a reputed and refined physics engine falling apart when dealing with what seems like a relatively simple concept. Hell, Second Life uses Havok physics, and you can fly in SL.

In any event, I don't really think any of us are familiar enough with Havok to begin discussing problems that might be inherent in the Havok engine itself that present themselves in Brawl. I just don't think it's logical to claim that these kind of failures in the Havok engine are in any way regular. I find it hard to believe that any action is regularly misinterpreted by the Havok engine. If that were the case, we would have to see more testimonials. I can't believe that it's anything but an occasional glitch, given the evidence we have right now.

My bet is...


1. Not everyone can do it
2. it has a small frame window
3. it's input to activate are usually not even implemented in a match
4. if it's a glitch of actually tripping, has a low chance of happening.


So, you'd have to be a specific character that just so happens to input a command during a specific frame(-window). The input is probably something that doesn't normally occur. So, if you happen to do a rare input at a specific frame, then you'd have a 1% chance to trip.

That could explain why it is so rare, why we aren't getting reports on all characters, and why it's never successfully been reproduced.


My honest opinion for further testing would be just to have a ton of people playing as sonic in 2 minute matches. Jumping around until they air trip. By a bunch of people, I mean like... a smashboards wide test.




edit: This is my personal opinion as based on observation. I'm not submitting it as fact.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

WTF? Wow Sakurai sure went through alot of trouble to make this game non competitive.

 

[Twin Dreams]

WTF? Wow Sakurai sure went through alot of trouble to make this game non competitive.

I'm going out on a limb here and suggesting that air tripping was not intended.

 

[Firus]

My friend have a theory that tripping is inflicted by invisible bananas that spawn and fall down to the air (which can result in "air tripping" ) so maybe if our theory is correct, a banana could have fallen on you while you were doing up-Smashing? There are many aspects to this theory, there is only one banana at a time on the stage and they have a 5% chance to randomly spawn anywhere above the stage

Oh my God...that is the most insane thing I've ever heard, but it makes so much sense at the same time! That would explain everything about it.

...Then again, that one video of Sonic air tripping shows him dropping under a platform and then tripping in the air. The banana wouldn't be able to be falling down there, it would've hit the platform and stopped there.

But yeah, Brawl has way too many glitches. How about instead of screwing around with Air Dodges and adding in Tripping, you try to fix some glitches next time, eh Sakurai?
After two delays, you think they'd have something to show for it. I mean, don't get me wrong, Brawl is amazing, but some parts of the game are lackluster.

 

[PK-ow!]

I found a vid where Wolf makes a Ganondorf air trip. Ganon is in the air, Wolf uses Fsmash, and Ganon is knocked downwards, and lands on his butt.

I'll try and find it again and edit the url in here. I just have to check my browsing history...

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1AmtyodFo&feature=related

2:42. Unfortunately the nearest you can track is to 2:26, and 2:43.

The vid also has Wolf's dair making Ganon (ground-)trip, but that's for another thread I guess? 2:18

 

[Skepsis]

I air tripped again yesterday, with Sonic, and again I was able to save the match. Its not as good as my previous example (I air trip right before going off the bottom of the screen) so I wont record it, but I'm only experiencing this with Sonic for some reason or another.

 

[Pyrotechnic Ninja]

I haven't read the entire thread, just the last couple pages and the first, so I don't know how helpful this is, but I got a replay of my friend air tripping as Charizard. If anybody wants to see it, I could find a way to post it but it'd have really bad quality (I'd have to take the video with my phone). Should I take the time to post it or does anybody care?

 

[pika-power]

pyrotechnic Ninja, everyone would love to see the video. The only thing is that it would need to be okay quality. Okay as in able to see what exactly happened.

I would post it.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I haven't read the entire thread, just the last couple pages and the first, so I don't know how helpful this is, but I got a replay of my friend air tripping as Charizard. If anybody wants to see it, I could find a way to post it but it'd have really bad quality (I'd have to take the video with my phone). Should I take the time to post it or does anybody care?

Send the actual replay video to someone with Video Capture software.....

 

[Crizthakidd]

yea ive tripped with charzard and the vid pk owl posted gannon triped. its all so useless game disturbing crap that while may not happen often, there is a chance.

and us competitive people hate chance or randomness. lol gg sakurai best game evar!!! worth the 4 years!

 

[QuestionMark]

with sonic it looked more like a taunt in midair. but i wasn't their so i cant say for sure

 

[Pyrotechnic Ninja]

Send the actual replay video to someone with Video Capture software.....

Good idea, but I don't know anyone with Video Capture software. Anybody reading this have it?

 

[Bocom]

Worth noting is that it happens in Luigi's Final Smash. So if you don't know how it looks like, use that.

Sorry if this have been mentioned, but I don't want to, nor have time to, read 31+ pages right now.

 

[Yuna]

Worth noting is that it happens in Luigi's Final Smash. So if you don't know how it looks like, use that.

Sorry if this have been mentioned, but I don't want to, nor have time to, read 31+ pages right now.

No it doesn't. I'll go edit the OP now.

 

[Taymond]

No it doesn't. I'll go edit the OP now.

Thanks, those comments were proliferating. I don't exactly know how much it'll help, but it'll probably stop some of them.

 

[SuperLink9]

I think I know what it might be. Don't flame me for this, but it's happened to me with Sonic too, at least I'm pretty sure it's the same thing.

If Sonic uses his 2 jumps and then his ^B very quickly, if you land and then try to jump again quickly, he will only be able to jump once. I think this also happens if he stays on a platform you can fall through or something. I'll have to test it out more myself. I can't tell you anything about Peach though, but I personally havn't heard of it happening with Peach, just Sonic.

 

[Eggm]

On saturday, in r3 of a tourney match I experienced my first air trip. I was knocked off by snake and he was in the center of the stage so i'm 100% sure it wasn't a footstool, and I just while recovering started tumbling in the air and I even said out loud WHATS HAPPENING? And proceeded to mash jump/ up + b but I just ended up falling to my doom. I was pikachu its the only char I play in this game. Anyways we coulda took the replay, but I forgot. ><>< >< But I can tell you that i'm no scrub i'm ranked 2nd in NJ under m2k in melee and im pretty good at reacting to and noticing things, and this was certainly without a doubt with pikachu an air trip. Just to let you guys knwo it happens with more than just sonic/peach. Defintley happened to me with pikachu. Also i've had the game since its japanese release and this is the first air trip I've experienced so it is really rare, but it happened in r3 of a tournament match. which I lost. <_<

 

[Grandeza]

Wow this has never happened to me but it really sucks. I could just imagine this causing me to lose a match in a tournament.

 

[Griffard]

i lost a life with 0% due to air tripping yesterday. i was ganon at animal crossing stage

 

[Yuna]

So let's see... characters that have been confirmed to air trip so far:
* Sonic
* Peach
* Jigglypuff
* Ganondorf
* Pikachu
* Charizard

The list keeps piling up, people. And the characters are all very diverse and have almost nothing universally in common. I think we can now safely say that Air Tripping is either a really stupid feature or a glitch which very rare but that can seemingly happen to at least a great number of the characters on the roster.

I still think that everyone can air trip, it's just so rare that people haven't air tripped enough yet. The SBR and other people need to read up on Air Tripping and remember save the darn replay whenever they air trip.

We need to spread the word on Air Tripping. Sure, it's rare. But it can and most probably will one day decide the outcome of a very important match/set, possibly even a final.

 

[Eggz]

i really doubt air tripping is character exclusive lol

 

[Tyr_03]

After a pretty substantial number of hours played I have no experienced air tripping one single time. It seems to be atleast moderately rare. I would think that in a tournament it would be easy enough to recognize and could be solved simply by doing a rematch. It's a really stupid game mechanic but isn't that big of a deal in a tournament because it's so rare and obvious when it happens.

 

[Luigi player]

i really doubt air tripping is character exclusive lol

Yeah, it wouldn't make sense. The trip on the ground can happen to all characters, so why not in the air too? Well, maybe some characters which are good in the air can't, but Jigglypuff airtripped too, so I doubt that some don't.

 

[Taymond]

Well, it's almost certain that Air Tripping isn't an intended mechanic, but rather a glitch, so we can't be absolutely certain it affects all characters, but I will agree that I believe it probably does. It's clear that in some way, tripping is related to Air Tripping, and all characters can Trip with equal probability.

I personally think there must be some programming oversight or glitch that for some reason, allows a Trip to happen midair on certain occasions, and that the tumble animation is how the game chooses to handle the phenomenon until your character reaches the ground. If this, or anything similar, is the case, then Air Tripping should be equal across all characters, since Tripping is, unless the situation that brings about this glitch is not possible, or less possible, for certain characters.

Considering the diverse set of confirmed Air Trippers, we don't really have any evidence to support the latter yet. The sample group is still far too small to expect any sort of even distribution of Air Trips. They're just far too rare to be seeing that, yet. In time, maybe we will.