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Air Dash Online - A competitive platform fighter

greenluigiman2

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
809
P:M was made specifically for the COMPETITIVE spectrum of the Smash fan base, and in that scene, the VAST majority of people would prefer to use just one Pokemon and have another move at their disposal, which is why they changed it like that.
This just sums up my entire point.
 

nat pagle

Smash Ace
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What we've built is a foundation, an underlying platform fighting game engine capable of scaling up to the final production with continued development. Now what the game would need to progress into something more is a realistic budget moving forward. A few thousand dollars simply won't cut it. You don't have to take my word for it, read over what others have said on this last page.
The foundation isn't limited to the game engine.

I understand that, but there is no foundation here that's able to get you near $355k at this point. The Smash community is too small and nonprofitable. You don't have the social support, the monetary resources, or the namebrand to get it started any time soon. The last thing you'd want is a plateau, which is what is happening here.

People are going to lose interest, especially when you can only amass 1.9% of the needed funds after a month of fundraising. A foundation isn't limited to just the money or engine. The Might No. 9 could get millions because they had brand name, a huge social support, and the possible money to make it happen.

The devs need to take some time and think about if the project has a viable future. As far as I can tell, the developer lineup is not strong enough to warrant $355k of donations and that level of trust. Too many guys with experience listed that is either irrelevant or doesn't exactly make me feel that they could put out a strong game worth donating for.
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
285
I understand that, but there is no foundation here that's able to get you near $355k at this point.
Well, this might surprise you, but I happened to strongly agree on many of these points going into the Kickstarter. More awareness and outside support needed to happen for this to be a success, among other things holding the project back. I did try to express this earlier, but it appears the conversation has come full circle.

Looking back, instead of being predominantly occupied with the development, part of me wishes I had focused more on raising these concerns early on and tackling them. At the same time, this project did need a dedicated technical lead which was how I could best contribute.
 

nat pagle

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Well, this might surprise you, but I happened to strongly agree on many of these points going into the Kickstarter. More awareness and outside support needed to happen for this to be a success, among other things holding the project back. I did try to express this earlier, but it appears the conversation has come full circle.

Looking back, instead of being predominantly occupied with the development, part of me wishes I had focused more on raising these concerns early on and tackling them. At the same time, this project did need a dedicated technical lead which was how I could best contribute.

Exactly, but Smash isn't the community to make it happen. Too niche.
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
285
How far are they willing to go in the Smash community/FGC? So far it hasn't been fruitfull despite showing up at EVO.
Not sure I fully understand your question, but the constructive developer/community interaction we did have was very beneficial to our progress.

The whole goal here was to bring industry professionals, smash veterans, and the community(s) input together to build a new platform fighter benefiting from our collective knowledge and experience.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
ManlySpirit, I do agree with your critique. The characters would have benefited from being further flushed out and iterated upon. Certainly easier said than done with a finite allocation for concept art and with other development considerations at play, but perhaps we needed to re-prioritize and delay other aspects of pre-production to nail the characters down.
I understand, as someone who's working on writing a comic atm, drawing up concepts, and writing and fleshing out characters is no easy task, each character alone needs a good number of hours and care put into them to be made interesting, but the payoff is great, it makes the characters relateable and interesting.

I'm only pointing it out in hope that you will try to tackle this issue more seriously in the future, it doesn't necessarily requiere money, as much as it does time (I for example have no money to work on my comic, just passion, dedication, and two good friends who are helping me out with it - friends who I met on here no less). Just sit down and try to think WHAT makes your characters unique, or how it could make them unique, draw inspiration from as many sources as possible.

This brings me to the next point, I agree that trying to reach out to other communities outside of SWF is also a good idea. Get this project known by as many gaming communities as you can, but for that to happen, you gotta make the project more interesting, and pitch more resources into concept and design. Get people excited about your idea. But for that to happen, you need to let people in a little more on what makes this idea unique.

Just my two cents is all.
 

nat pagle

Smash Ace
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Dustwallow Marsh
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Not sure I fully understand your question, but the constructive developer/community interaction we did have was very beneficial to our progress.

The whole goal here was to bring industry professionals, smash veterans, and the community(s) input together to build a new platform fighter benefiting from our collective knowledge and experience.

Too much focus on the Smash community and FGC. Get broader audiences man! Or else that kickstarter will never break 10%, and you won't be able to develop the game for years and hype will die off.
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
285
I'm only pointing it out in hope that you will try to tackle this issue more seriously in the future, it doesn't necessarily requiere money, as much as it does time (I for example have no money to work on my comic, just passion, dedication, and two good friends who are helping me out with it - friends who I met on here no less). Just sit down and try to think WHAT makes your characters unique, or how it could make them unique, draw inspiration from as many sources as possible.
Well, unfortunately it did require some money given this project originated from members of the smash scene first without the art background. Before I joined, a number of these character concepts existed through commission. I happen to like Yuul's designs and probably would have never joined had they not existed. Same if I didn't see any 3D work (Chai's model was already built on a similar arrangement). We definitely did have detailed backgrounds on each character, but unfortunately they did not carry over to the website revamp or Kickstarter text. Absolutely something I would have liked to see in there, even in a condensed version.

Too much focus on the Smash community and FGC. Get broader audiences man! Or else that kickstarter will never break 10%, and you won't be able to develop the game for years and hype will die off.
Again, not taking the necessary steps to reach more people outside the scene was one of the Kickstarter's downfalls. That said, when we did reach a wider audience, our desire to build a game with the Smash community was never a point of contention. What I found is the further you get from the Smash Community/FGC, the less people emphasize what the intended audience is. It's really not a dilemma of picking with one or the other.

It also wasn't all that uncommon for comments to contradict some of the points expressed in this thread. Doesn't mean of course these are not issues, just that the broader audience can have a different perspective.
 

Cellsai

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
6
Location
Japan
I see the prototype build got a mention on Siliconera: http://www.siliconera.com/2013/11/12/super-smash-bros-inspired-indie-fighter-gets-playable-demo/

Siliconera have been good about posting stuff for Kickstarters like this in the past. It would have been great had they been alerted to this demo when the KS was actually active.
On the ADO website it lists 2 people on the ADO team under PR and Promotion. Where were these people during the KS? Advertising the game to these websites sounds like it should have been their job. Why are they even listed on the team if they were unable to fulfill that role? If they were busy or otherwise unable to do advertising at the time, why was the KS even launched during that time?

I know this is flogging a dead horse at this point, but it just really bugs me how this KS was potentially a great way to start the game but was just tossed out the window.
 

Giygacoal

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
1,651
Come up with a more advanced tech demo and show it to rhe gaming news websites. That's all I could think of.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
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Location
Toronto, Ontario
Consider the vast free marketing at your disposal with People who are popular on YouTube for just playing games. Obviously it might not be ready to have two of them play and make videos with it but for sure there's got to be someone with a few hundred thousand subscribers who would love to get free games
 

Sorry:(

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
112
How about a combo meter.

It could be like tension in Guilty Gear, gained from forward movement, to reward offense and discourage camping. The meter could be slit into bars that would allow successive airdash cancels out of ariel attacks after the first airdash cancel (like ex focus canceling). The full meter could be used for a timed custom combo with mechanics like project m turbo mode.

Basically a street fighter super meter, charged by tension, with a custom super combo, and bars for airdash canceling. I really hope this game still gets made someday.
 

Handorin

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
6,013
How's the actual progress on the game? Ever since the kickstarter failed, we have hardly seen any news or streams or anything.
 

nat pagle

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How's the actual progress on the game? Ever since the kickstarter failed, we have hardly seen any news or streams or anything.

I doubt they have the money to really make progress on it. Otherwise they were asking for money for no reason.
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
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Sep 16, 2005
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507
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Breinigsville, PA
How's the actual progress on the game? Ever since the kickstarter failed, we have hardly seen any news or streams or anything.
So much of this, the only thing worse then a failed Kickstarter is a blackout afterwards. No one wants to see that as it looks like the project is dead in the water, what should have followed was a press release or something. What are your PR people doing exactly?

Something I want to note, and I mentioned this a LONG time ago in an email to you guys is that the thing that Smash has going for it at all times is recognizable and fun characters. They are colorful, wacky, and just overall interesting to play around with. My biggest concern is right now these characters look to serious, it looks like Soul Caliber, but with even less color. I never felt like regular human characters were that interesting unless they had some kind of niche. Falcon has his Knee, Marth has his sword, Snake has well he's Snake.

Lastly the animations really need to be implemented. The game looks stale without them, even quick filler animations would be better then just getting hit and still being in a standing position. It's hard to tell what's a combo/juggle when they are just standing there.

/2cents
 

Terral

bluehexagons
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TERA#282
Hey everyone, I've been the programmer for Air Dash Online. The lack of announcement since the closure of the Kickstarter was due to attempts to regroup and work out a new plan; after receiving feedback and confirming most of our concerns, we wanted to change the entire art direction and scrap the current character concepts. Since our budget is entirely spent, if you're an optimist, you can consider the game on an indefinite hiatus. Thanks for all of the support (and even criticism), it has meant a lot to us.

If you want to play a game that is inspired by the Smash formula, check out Bara Bari Ball, which I haven't personally played but it looks really fun. I was also working on a Melee-based game solo prior to joining JV5, which I may continue working on if I find the time to since it's pretty far along. If anyone cares, I'll try to make an announcement about it in a month or two.
 

dkuo

Smash Lord
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San Jose, CA
dude....:(

well, good luck with the projects anyways. sad to see all the current project material go though
 

Sorry:(

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
112
Maybe Airdash Online's ideas could be used in Project M.

I respect trying to make an original game and am sad for the "infinite hiatus," however I bet you guys could work with the PMBR to make a AIRDASH MODE in Project M. I would love to see smash bros characters doing airdash combos.

Especially combined with my above combo-meter post (doubt anyone's with me there), but just to see the airdash hope for platform fighting live on somehow would be cool.
 

Terral

bluehexagons
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TERA#282
"Infinite hiatus" would be the pessimistic version. The optimistic version is "indefinite hiatus", which means that maybe we'll be able to do something eventually, but I'll admit that it's unlikely.

Air Dash Online combos are kind of like toned-down (have to cancel into jump or air dash), very technical (have to split up fast low-altitude combos with wave dashes and wave lands) Turbo Mode combos, so I doubt they'd want to put the effort needed to add what's basically a redundant game mode. They're free to make it if they think it sounds cool, though.
 

Sorry:(

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
112
Sorry:( for the typo.

I did play the demo online and found that replacing air-dodging with airdashing made an interesting change of game outside of it's use in combos.

Yet, Turbo Mode combos look like Marvel vs Capcom combos, obscenely long and devastating with one character just reaming the other character who just lies there taking it. Airdash online combos seemed more elegant and refined, like there's some call and response. I actually like turbo mode a lot, but a separate Airdash mode would make things spicier. I'm down for really technical game play.

I hope you make your game, but I just wish I could play it. Maybe showcasing Airdash mode in Project M could help gather more interest and potential kickstarter contributors. There's still no decent smash game that has good online play and that is not tied to an outdated and limited Nintendo console (or please enlighten me). Project M is a temporary solution. We need your game. The best way to get gamers to support you is to let them play your game, like really play it, something beyond the online demo.
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
285
Hi everyone. As Terral mentioned, the project as it stands will likely not continue in the curent form. If it resurfaces, chances are it will be as something new with a different team makeup. Thankfully there are also other great indie developers in this scene, many doing some incredibly clever and unique stuff, but I do hope we're not the last to attempt a new IP looking to build specificaly upon Melee. Perhaps as time passes and SD becomes a bigger barrier of entry for new players, more will work on filling that void. Certainly keep an eye on what Terral is doing, he has some very extensive experience here between ADO and his own project. As for myself, in case anyone was wondering, I recently moved and started a new job, continuing my career as a technical artist. Afraid that means it's no longer practical for me to contribute as I have, but I'll try to make myself avaliable if there are any questions relating to our development process or working in the games industry in general.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Hi everyone. As Terral mentioned, the project as it stands will likely not continue in the curent form. If it resurfaces, chances are it will be as something new with a different team makeup. Thankfully there are also other great indie developers in this scene, many doing some incredibly clever and unique stuff, but I do hope we're not the last to attempt a new IP looking to build specificaly upon Melee. Perhaps as time passes and SD becomes a bigger barrier of entry for new players, more will work on filling that void. Certainly keep an eye on what Terral is doing, he has some very extensive experience here between ADO and his own project. As for myself, in case anyone was wondering, I recently moved and started a new job, continuing my career as a technical artist. Afraid that means it's no longer practical for me to contribute as I have, but I'll try to make myself avaliable if there are any questions relating to our development process or working in the games industry in general.
"Infinite hiatus" would be the pessimistic version. The optimistic version is "indefinite hiatus", which means that maybe we'll be able to do something eventually, but I'll admit that it's unlikely.

Air Dash Online combos are kind of like toned-down (have to cancel into jump or air dash), very technical (have to split up fast low-altitude combos with wave dashes and wave lands) Turbo Mode combos, so I doubt they'd want to put the effort needed to add what's basically a redundant game mode. They're free to make it if they think it sounds cool, though.


I'm sorry to hear your project went down. Regardless, I see a lot of talent in your team, and if you'd like to pick up the project again, with some new quirks and perhaps a background that could help make it recogniziable some time in the future, please, PM me.

As I've mentioned before, I'm working on a comic with a couple friends, and I will be publishing it in the future, the concept for the characters, are all built around a fighting game, so if you're interested in the idea, let me know, and I'll PM you with some of the ideas and concepts that are down. More than anything atm, we've got the story 60% done, and tons and tons of concept art.

I've also got some ideas for the fighting game itself, which like I said before ITT, is a cross between Smash and Blazblue.

Anyway, the game itself is still a far-away dream, but the comic will certainly happen, in which case, you've solved your identity issue. Just throwing that out there, it doesn't hurt to look into it I guess.

Either way, best of luck with your future prospects, I think you can certainly work something out if you look hard enough.
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
285
Thanks ManlySpirit. For me personally I probably would need to see more from a project like this before taking the leap again. Ideally a publisher, a workplace (too many unexpected suprises working over the web), a very connected team, and at least one lead who has run an indie project or small studio before. That's not to knock our team or any of its members, we made the best of our situation, but it's become clear to me over time something of this scope is not practical without all these parts comming together.

I certainly would love to some day revist a game like this again, but at the moment I'm happily employed and enjoying the different studio enviornment. Smash has also been my only intrest for the past 8 months, so it's a bit refreshing to take a step away. I'm sort of redescovering my other ambitions and reasons I love working in this industry.
 

greenluigiman2

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
809
I'd love to see someone attempt a less graphically demanding Smash inspired game; sort of like a Smash version of Skull Girls. TBH I've somewhat tried working on a project like that, the problem is that I have zero idea how to create a Smash Bros. style engine.
 

JV5Chris

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I'd love to see someone attempt a less graphically demanding Smash inspired game; sort of like a Smash version of Skull Girls.
Well actually I consider the Skull Girls approach to be quite a massive labor commitment. They certainly had more people working in tandem than we did.

And honestly the graphics were rarely a bottleneck. I had most of it pretty well covered, at least for what we needed out of pre-production.
 

greenluigiman2

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
809
Well actually I consider the Skull Girls approach to be quite a massive labor commitment. They certainly had more people working in tandem than we did.

And honestly the graphics were rarely a bottleneck. I had most of it pretty well covered, at least for what we needed out of pre-production.
So what was most of the budget needed for?
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
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So what was most of the budget needed for?
Simply put continued development and compensation for future work. The proposed budget was fairly balanced across programming and art/animation. Of those, programming naturally had the larger safety net.

Ultimately though, we didn't really have one aspect of development that was monopolizing our projected costs, but fighting games are just overall more involved than your typical small indie tittle.
 

Terral

bluehexagons
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TERA#282
So what was most of the budget needed for?
It's easy to underestimate how much work goes into games like Skullgirls and BlazBlue. While it doesn't require the same amount of technical knowledge as 3D modeling, animation, and tech.. you're still stuck with hand-animating everything, in many cases frame-by-frame. You're also committing to an animation when it's drawn out at production quality, because it's much more difficult to tweak after that point. With 3D animation, it's relatively easy to make small adjustments.

If you look at the Skullgirls IndieGoGo, they wanted $150k to finish a character that was already partially playable, $25k just for her story mode and stage, then another $200k to make a second character. Compared to Skullgirls, Air Dash Online needed a few times more animations per character and our entire budget was still lower than the Skullgirls fundraiser's second character stretch goal. Our Kickstarter budget even covered the programming to build the entire engine, online play, servers, hosting, etc.
 

greenluigiman2

Smash Ace
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Nov 21, 2007
Messages
809
I wonder what the budget for Super Smash Flash 2 is/was. They didn't even need a Kickstarter. If you took that game, had slightly higher quality sprites and animations, and switched out the licensed characters for original ones, that would be perfect for what I'm looking for.

By any chance, did you guys create an engine for ADO, one that could sorta be reused by other people?
 

Terral

bluehexagons
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TERA#282
I wonder what the budget for Super Smash Flash 2 is/was. They didn't even need a Kickstarter. If you took that game, had slightly higher quality sprites and animations, and switched out the licensed characters for original ones, that would be perfect for what I'm looking for.
He probably didn't have a budget, considering it's been five years since he released the first version of the game and it's still in beta. The sprites do look nice standing alone, but they're (intentionally, for style and lower effort) very pixelated, the animations don't have many actual frames (again, style and lower effort), and he had help making these because he can base all of his sprites and animations off of the original games, likely tracing over them to some degree. He has also lifted sound effects from the original games (Smash and the other titles), and it has no online play.

ADO had only a few months of part-time development when we launched the Kickstarter, and if it had been funded we'd probably be looking at an alpha release next month, with an online beta halfway through next year and a full release at the end of it. Skullgirls had a three-year development cycle, though I can't say what all they had to go through during that time period.


By any chance, did you guys create an engine for ADO, one that could sorta be reused by other people?
The engine used Unity as a graphics engine and stage/character editor, the physics/collision/resource management/etc code was mostly custom. It's not really something I can imagine would be incredibly useful for someone else since it's still fairly incomplete and there are some rough spots in the codebase. It's also in UnityScript, so it would need to be ported to another language to use it elsewhere.
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
285
I wonder what the budget for Super Smash Flash 2 is/was. They didn't even need a Kickstarter. If you took that game, had slightly higher quality sprites and animations, and switched out the licensed characters for original ones, that would be perfect for what I'm looking for.
I would guess zero. Now keep in mind, that doesn't mean the game cost nothing to make. It's paid for in the donated hours/days/years of work by the developer(s) with a strong attachment to the existing IP. That sort of free labor, working dynamic is only really acceptable with fan tribute, student, and/or personal projects. It's just not a very apt comparison to our situation or any team making a fighting game with an original roster.


The engine used Unity as a graphics engine and stage/character editor, the physics/collision/resource management/etc code was mostly custom.
Just in case you're wondering as well greenluigiman2, Unity doesn't look like this out of the box either. We had a fair amount of custom shader and lighting code to push it to this level.
 

greenluigiman2

Smash Ace
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809
I would guess zero. Now keep in mind, that doesn't mean the game cost nothing to make. It's paid for in the donated hours/days/years of work by the developer(s) with a strong attachment to the existing IP. That sort of free labor, working dynamic is only really acceptable with fan tribute, student, and/or personal projects. It's just not a very apt comparison to our situation or any team making a fighting game with an original roster.
I wasn't necessarily comparing it to your situation, and even if I was it was indirect. It's just that since ADO is presumably dead, I'm trying to think of alternatives, and one of those alternatives was someone taking a route similar to SSF2 except with original content.
 

JV5Chris

Smash Journeyman
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I wasn't necessarily comparing it to your situation, and even if I was it was indirect. It's just that since ADO is presumably dead, I'm trying to think of alternatives, and one of those alternatives was someone taking a route similar to SSF2 except with original content.
I understand. My point was more or less going with original content does add to the challenge of building a reliable team capable of hitting that mark. I certainly want to encourage you to take that path, but be aware many hurdles become considerably more difficult to overcome.
 

lordvaati

Smash Master
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Damn, dude, it's really tragic to see this go.

All of this happened during my brief break from Smashboards and during my current moving predicament so I have been out of the loop, but I had to say my piece over it all...

First off, the aesthetic you chose was fine. The concept art evoked classic Guilty Gear X art and the setting evokes a darker toned world so the current style is fine. What I do agree with though is better resonance with the characters. If we got to know the characters a little beforehand then we could support seeing characters like Tesla, Chain and the rest. That is why I think the comic suggestion is a wonderful idea, as it helps further establish and create this universe you created. It gets people invested in the cast and their struggles and get people wanting characters in the game. Part of the reason why stuff like Smash, Injustice, and the Naruto games all succeed is because of this reason. Hell, even Skull girls did this even as the characters and universe existed long before the game on Oh8(Alex Ahad)'s deviantArt account.

Secondly, crowd funding. The pricing cannot really be argued with, and logically it makes sense(anyone who saw the Skull girl's cost breakdown can attest to that), but at the same time I feel the issue that ultimately hurt the game was that it had the same prob as Worlds of Wander had in that it didn't factor in the mainstream example. What is logical to 10 is insane for 1000, and that amount mattered. To the casual observer, it looked over priced and from surface elements didn't have much to stand out. Also the main platform of the game was too cryptic as well like Worlds of Wander, which main point was it was made by the creator of Commander Keen(a game which very people remember this generation), and likewise the only sell ADO had was it was developed by professional fgc players like Mike Z and M2K, names not commonly known( in fact the only major player names really known in mainstream are Ken,JWong,Daigo,lil'Poison and Fatal1ty.) That means the market left was fgc and Smash...and with such low marketing it was impossible to succeed. It took everything the community had to get just 95k for EVO. Even the whole drive combined only amassed 225k.

I guess I do agree that the project should take a break for revision, but not with killing it(as alluded with the site being gone). Build up the public attention by creating the world in another form of media, like a comic or a web series to get people invested. Spread interest with the game by creating as much as possible with a playable version that is like a demo that could be done with a budget of around 40k. Try and market it to people who could help get the project attention, like Max did with Nidhogg and IGN with SuperComboMan and Project M. Aim for a more conserve Kick starter, namely with a goal around 70-125k. But ultimately take some time to get this set up. This project is a hell of a lot more important in the forseable future for this community then many would think, and the potential that this has cannot be denied. Don't let this go to ruin.
 

JV5Chris

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Messages
285
Well, I'm not entirely convinced that a mainstream hook is necessary for a successful Kickstarter. That may be the case for some projects, but I think in our situation the problems were far more fundamental than that.

We tried to tackle a genre with an extremely passionate audience that has very mixed ideas on what the priorities should be and what the defining factors are. That means if any aspect of the game is not developing up to someone's specific standards or tastes, chances are they'll dismiss the game and team behind it. It's not easy to gain broad support when differing expectations span across the spectrum like this, but that's exactly what we faced. To have any shot, everything needed to come together just right and that simply wasn't the case.
 
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Mew2King

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The game is still around we just need more people to work on it for it to get anywhere. There is still a lot of content already-made that can be updated at any time if the right people join in.

If any of you all know Unity or 3d modeling and animation hit me up.
 
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JV5Chris

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Apr 8, 2013
Messages
285
I don't know anything on that personally, but if the project were to continue it's certainly something I'd be supportive of. My hands are tied down at Sony, so I can't really have an active involvement anymore. But definitely keep me in the loop if development is ongoing, especially let me know if you plan to use anything I've contributed thus far.

In light of recent events, I hope more people see the point in having a game like this exist that is entirely in the community's control.
 
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Terral

bluehexagons
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Oct 18, 2008
Messages
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Slippi.gg
TERA#282
I haven't heard about any progress on Air Dash since the Kickstarter. I'd still be willing to contribute if we can get a team back together, I just can't promise much time since we weren't able to get funding.
 
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