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Air Dash Online - A competitive platform fighter

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
"The basis of the game? Knock your opponent off of the stage, much like Smash Brothers. The more hits landed, the harder it is to stay on the stage.

Things we know as of now: This is a PC Title, The 1st beta will give access to 5 characters, 5 stages, multiplayer leaderboards, Online Matchmaking, and 3 alternate skins for each character. The story progresses with actual players more so then having a straight up single player story mode which also adds an interesting dynamic...

The team has announced they will hold live streams of their 3D modeling and art creation so that you can see development as the months go by.

The best players will be the ones that can use all of their character’s strength to solidify control of the arena."

http://maxlevel.org/air-dash-online-announced/

----------------------

Not much new, but confirms a few things that might have been suspected.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
Possibly a bit late in development to be considering this, but has the team touched on the idea of a hybrid-win system, involving both smash style ring-outs and health based knockouts? It's something that would simultaneously be unique to the game, more familiar with traditional TFG gamers, and help set it apart from smash without completely alienating it.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
You mean kind if like stamina mode in smash?
The problem with Stamina mode is that you don't have stock.

Stock based matches with Stamina would Rock. That's actually the concept me and some other guys were looking into, it'd be great if the ADO team considered it.
 

Handorin

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
6,013
Yea. Now that I took a second look at his post I think I see what it meant now with the hybrid. I just assumed it mean like other fighting games, which don't have stocks, unless you count rounds.
 

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
Possibly a bit late in development to be considering this, but has the team touched on the idea of a hybrid-win system, involving both smash style ring-outs and health based knockouts? It's something that would simultaneously be unique to the game, more familiar with traditional TFG gamers, and help set it apart from smash without completely alienating it.
Lemmie break down a game that tried that:



Had a few problems. First was that there was very little reason to chase someone off the edge since your own ledge recovery sucked (unless there was a wall to wall-jump up from). Also, spikes/meteors were practically non-existent. Those things could be remedied.

The bigger issue was that because knockback was consistent, you'd naturally resort to moves that could send them off with little to no chance of return. It was satisfying to land one of those hits, but the game started to revolve too much around them on stages that weren't blocked in. At least with hard hits in Smash you still have to be at a relatively high % to die from on stage.

If knockback is variable, what's the point of a health bar? If you're at a high enough %, you'll be dying soon anyways. The biggest difference would be that super-weak attacks might finish you a little more often.

Not that you suggested it, but just to refute the idea... dropping variable knockback would take away a lot about what makes Smash work as a platform fighter. That's still something that commercial Smash imitators have yet to pick up on. With it there, edge-guarding is more varied and combos are more off the cuff. Removing it would make the game more derivative of the Smash inspired games already out. So it's probably better to stick closer to the source, at least on this.


I think there's a lot more ways in which a game like this could appeal to traditional fighting fans. Pushing the competitive aspects from the get go (and avoiding mascots) should hopefully paint it in a different light. There's still plenty left about the basic fight mechanics of Smash that could be reconsidered or added to. In good taste, of course.


The problem with Stamina mode is that you don't have stock.

Stock based matches with Stamina would Rock. That's actually the concept me and some other guys were looking into, it'd be great if the ADO team considered it.
An even bigger problem with Stamina mode was the knockback was a joke. Maybe there's a happy medium somewhere. But even it exists, I'd still question if it's really the most engaging way to do a game like this.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
If what I took from your post as a response to mine is correct, you assumed I meant that knockback had to be static if you were to add in health based knockouts, which isn't the case at all. Just take this for example- damage increases as it does in smash, with knockback increasing as well, but at a certain percent (could be the same for each character or dependent on archetype) the character would be "killed" or knocked-out, lose a stock, and be sent to the spawn point/platform in the same manner as if ringed-out. Perhaps they fall over, disintegrate, and reintegrate as they respawn. It would be a more diverse system with two threats to each stock. It makes the choice in comboing between maximizing damage and maximizing positional advantage more important. I'm gonna go see if I can find any posts of mine where I've detailed this more greatly, as I've talked about it before with a few others. It's not straying that far from smash however, except that there's a limit to your percent where you lose a stock.

In fact, this kind of system would lend use to lop-sided stage design, where there is only one edge and the other side is a wall. It allows for the wall to be used by one player in a way to maximize combo length and damage without really supplying him/her with the means to position the opponent in a drastically worse position to be, say, edgeguarded. The other person, should they land the first hit, has more ease of setting up an edgeguard but difficulty (compared to the other player at the time) in performing lengthy combos requiring a wall. This is just an analysis of early game though, based on who spawns facing which direction; mid-game would be dependent on who has what positioning, which characters can gain which side more easily, and other such factors.
 

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
If what I took from your post as a response to mine is correct, you assumed I meant that knockback had to be static if you were to add in health based knockouts, which isn't the case at all. Just take this for example- damage increases as it does in smash, with knockback increasing as well, but at a certain percent (could be the same for each character or dependent on archetype) the character would be "killed" or knocked-out, lose a stock, and be sent to the spawn point/platform in the same manner as if ringed-out. Perhaps they fall over, disintegrate, and reintegrate as they respawn. It would be a more diverse system with two threats to each stock. It makes the choice in comboing between maximizing damage and maximizing positional advantage more important. I'm gonna go see if I can find any posts of mine where I've detailed this more greatly, as I've talked about it before with a few others. It's not straying that far from smash however, except that there's a limit to your percent where you lose a stock.
Followed you on that, I just don't see that much potential in the idea.

I mostly view a health bar in that context hurting, if anything. If you're being knocked around like you're at 250% and still have 1/4 of your life left, you'd die from ring outs much more than having your gauge deplete. This essentially would play out like what Smash Bros already is (in that case, what's the difference?). On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you're being hit like you're at 60% but your health is 95% of the way gone, positional advantage becomes much LESS important. Ledge guarding would be become more or less moot.

To move away from extremities, let's say relative to Melee you died suddenly once you hit 110%. Would that make Melee more positional? Not by much. Would that make much of a difference in how people went for kills? Again, not by much. What it would mostly do is make death more of a given. Those tense moments when people were hanging on by a thread at 120-190% would be erased from history. The game would become less about the recovery dynamic. That's no good IMO.


As for the second part of your post, I can understand where you're coming from with walls. People's approaches to stages outside of current tournament norms would definitely change if you made health bar KO's possible early enough. But ultimately, it's a trade-off for gimping the recovery dynamic, and that doesn't sit well with me.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
I can actually think of several ways that this mechanic would become relevant in the scheme of the game with its own value rather than just leeching off of that of the ring-out mechanic. They aren't entirely obvious though, so expect a short essay detailing them... tomorrow. Or the soonest time I remember. I'd do it now but it's late, so I'll get back to you later.

But to respond to one thing rather quick, the idea was to go to neither extremity, but if anything to favor ring-outs only slightly. Of course that doesn't answer your main concern, which I will address tomorrow.
 

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
I can actually think of several ways that this mechanic would become relevant in the scheme of the game with its own value rather than just leeching off of that of the ring-out mechanic. They aren't entirely obvious though, so expect a short essay detailing them... tomorrow. Or the soonest time I remember. I'd do it now but it's late, so I'll get back to you later.

But to respond to one thing rather quick, the idea was to go to neither extremity, but if anything to favor ring-outs only slightly. Of course that doesn't answer your main concern, which I will address tomorrow.
To that I'd say that 'KO's happen frequently enough in Smash as it is. As in, you hit them with something strong enough at a high enough % for them to get tossed directly into the kill boundaries off-screen. So from a practical standpoint, I think the dynamic you're talking about is already at play for the most part. Edge-guarding is a more involved way to get the job done but is possible at lower percents, so it's a little more favorable overall.

Jigglypufff in Melee is the most extreme example of what I'm talking about here. Should you attempt to rest them for a 'KO' or Wall of Pain them with back-airs beyond what's recoverable?

Anyhow, looking forward to that full response when you've got the time.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Had a few problems. First was that there was very little reason to chase someone off the edge since your own ledge recovery sucked (unless there was a wall to wall-jump up from). Also, spikes/meteors were practically non-existent. Those things could be remedied.

The bigger issue was that because knockback was consistent, you'd naturally resort to moves that could send them off with little to no chance of return. It was satisfying to land one of those hits, but the game started to revolve too much around them on stages that weren't blocked in. At least with hard hits in Smash you still have to be at a relatively high % to die from on stage.

If knockback is variable, what's the point of a health bar? If you're at a high enough %, you'll be dying soon anyways. The biggest difference would be that super-weak attacks might finish you a little more often.

Not that you suggested it, but just to refute the idea... dropping variable knockback would take away a lot about what makes Smash work as a platform fighter. That's still something that commercial Smash imitators have yet to pick up on. With it there, edge-guarding is more varied and combos are more off the cuff. Removing it would make the game more derivative of the Smash inspired games already out. So it's probably better to stick closer to the source, at least on this.


I think there's a lot more ways in which a game like this could appeal to traditional fighting fans. Pushing the competitive aspects from the get go (and avoiding mascots) should hopefully paint it in a different light. There's still plenty left about the basic fight mechanics of Smash that could be reconsidered or added to. In good taste, of course.

An even bigger problem with Stamina mode was the knockback was a joke. Maybe there's a happy medium somewhere. But even it exists, I'd still question if it's really the most engaging way to do a game like this.
The problem with Stamina mode was that it was never fleshed out. Variable Knockback and HP can very easily coexist in a fighter. In fact, it can even work as a combo breaking mechanic.

I feel that you are trying too hard to argue against HP based fighting, as there are plenty of fighting games out there, all of which revolve around HP and work just fine.

The biggest mechanics in Smash are the mobility, and the Variable Knockback, both of which can be adopted by HP based fighters. Look at the Air Dashers like Guilty Gear, they too place a large focus on mobily and do just fine.

The biggest difference between strictly HP and Strictly Knockback is the mindset figthers will have at low Health, in Smash they are more keen to take risks and go on the offensive at low health. Whereas in other fighters, players tend to go more on the defense and carefully think out their moves. Regardless, both can certrainly co-exist as the ability to earn easy kills while at high HP is a might be a risk worth taking. Ring Out KO's exist in other fighters, so it's not Smash exclusive, look at Soul Calibur for example.

I think the most important thing for this team is to carefully analyze the mechanics of Smash and other fighters in order to choose what will work best for their game and come up with something unique and fresh, rather than trying to make a Smash clone. Just what I think. That's what I would do after all.
 

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
To clarify, my argument wasn't against HP based fighters. I don't disagree that a high mobility fighter with health bars can work. And yes, other fighting games do have ring outs (though ledge recovery usually isn't part of that).

I'm just a skeptic about a health bar adding more to the Smash formula than it takes away, even with variable knockback. I don't think people at very low health would play much differently than those at high %'s. All it really takes to finish you at that point is a Smash-attack, or even a throw in some circumstances. Sure, Smash games generally reward aggression, but at that point you still can't afford to be careless. The biggest difference with a health bar is that weaker attacks could KO in circumstances when they would otherwise swat you away with a chance to recover.


Totally agreed with the last paragraph. They just have to be careful not to alienate Smash fans too much in the process of adding new things. Stuff like Super-only kills in PSA would be taking it too far IMO. Those sorts of gimmicks really aren't necessary to innovate.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Well, I was merely suggesting the concept that I was personally looking into. I even came up with mechanics, combo mechanics, and a control scheme. It can definitely work, you just have to try to be a good, balanced competitie game, not a Smash clone.

PSABR failed because it tried to be Smash, and then it tried not to. It looked at the surface-level aspects of Smash, attempting to emulate them, but failed to come up with rational mechanics. Super kills are gimmicky because it REALLY waters down gameplay.

As for KO's in HP fighters you're still more likely to die at low health than in Smash, simply because even a jab can kill you. In Smash there are less options to kill you, thus you can STILL get hit, and last up to 200% if you're on a streak. This is hard to do in HP fighters, thought it STILL could work if rounds were replaced with stocks, thus making the rounds continious.

Perhaps I'll post the mechanics I came up for my personal project if more people are interested. Maybe the ADO team could get some ideas from there too.
 

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
As for KO's in HP fighters you're still more likely to die at low health than in Smash, simply because even a jab can kill you. In Smash there are less options to kill you, thus you can STILL get hit, and last up to 200% if you're on a streak. This is hard to do in HP fighters, thought it STILL could work if rounds were replaced with stocks, thus making the rounds continuous.
That's what I like about Smash. It's the potential for those 'streaks' that add to the importance of ledge guarding, or encourages you to try to finish with a stronger attack or throw. HP fighters by comparison are more about comboing into a KO or sneaking it in with something simpler. There's a danger of diluting the best aspects of both systems in mixing the two.

I'd be interested to hear what you've got anyhow. Could be that you've found an answer I'm just not coming to on my own.

EDIT: New piece of stage art was posted on FB.

 

DaTalkingFrog

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
12
Right now we have no plans for user generated content.

Characters will have multiple skins(outfits). We are creating content that appeals to different preferences.



We are building it for digital first but we want include an analog option.
I don't really see how supporting both analog and digital would work unless you have multiple buttons for digital input that represent different levels of analog input unless you were to make analog less significant, in which case it probably shouldn't be in the game at all. In my opinion it would make sense just to focus around a digital input since this is a PC game, and while most players will prefer a controller, I would expect there would be a pretty large keyboard-player base. Not properly supporting a keyboard-player base for a PC indie game would make the game much less accessible and may alienate a lot of potential players. Admittedly, it feels weird saying this since fighting games are generally born first on the console space where controllers are the standard... but then again maybe you guys are hoping for a console release on launch? That would make development a lot more difficult though!

I could see newcomers first playing the game on keyboard, but eventually buying a PC-compatible controller when they want to get "serious", kind of like how many traditional fighting game players start on a controller and then move over to the fight stick. Or perhaps this game will be designed with the fight stick in mind first? What method of control are you guys centralizing the development on first? Keyboard? Controller? Fight stick? Will the mouse even be involved?

If it's keeping close to Melee, then I assume you guys are designing everything around a controller which might conflict with the potentially large keyboard-player base. Analog is one huge distinguishing factor for the entire Smash series, and I'm really curious as to how you handle using analog or not.

Either way, it is amazing to see community development instead of just riding where ever Nintendo takes us. I'm really looking forward to this game and I can't wait for more updates!!
 

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
I think Yamer pretty much answered your question here:

The analog will be limited to 8-way directional controlling but it will allow you to control run-speed with out double tapping the stick(or holding a button)
In other words, some things might be slightly simplified with an analog stick, but it doesn't sound like you'll have more fidelity in of itself.

Keyboard controls for fighting games get messy when they rely on SFII-like half-circle inputs and such to pull off attacks. If this game is going to strive to emulate Smash in simplicity's sense, it might end up working out ok. It does leave a few questions open as to how they'll be handling the attack controls however.

Might also be worth mentioning that PSA had completely digitized controls, even if you used the analog stick. So that's one example of how it can be handled. Super Smash Flash 2 would be another.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
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Beaumont, TX
Meant to post sunday, but the forums were down then, and I've been busy since. Haven't really got time right now to organize a big 'ol post, but I DO have time to copy a post I already made, from a private conversation a few of us, myself, Kink-Link, Joe!, and a few others are part of.

Basically, one of the ways that health based kills can add to the game are by freeing up the physics system for a more daring (and realistic) one. The system is detailed in the spoiler below. Warning- it's very long, as the post was meant to be stand alone on the physics system for a theoretical game that is already using the hybrid KO design. I don't feel like shortening it, sorry.

Just a quick background-
We've got a conversation going about a hypothetical SSB-TFG merger with both types of KOs, platforming, basic on-hit combos, and various other topics relating to such a combination of traditional fighters and platform fighters. So take the post with that in mind, I think it references some of those things somewhere. This post details only air physics in relation to knockback.

I would actually like to see it work more like real world physics. Mostly just talking about air movement here, also. Obviously there's still going to need to be some exaggerations in the way it works to get the characteristic flying across the screen effect we want for the fighter. It's a video game, we can fudge on the equivalent weight values or the equivalent force or momentum values or w/e to make it work. But how it works essentially is that every character has only a weight and a drag coefficient (or air resistance constant, or w/e we choose to call it, it's based on the characters apparent surface area). The drag coefficient is the same in all directions, for simplicity. How a character moves is based on a function of their weight and any momentum applied to them, whether it be from pushing off the ground (technically a force but w/e we can make the units fit) pushing off of air (air dashes/dodges/jumps/flight/what-have-you) of from a hit. Gravity is the same for all characters, but because of air resistance upward, each character will have different actual rates of acceleration as well as terminal velocities. Characters can of course decrease their air resistance downward by fast-falling, should we choose to include that (and I see no reason not to). Hitting a character applies the momentum of the attack to them (skip the whole concept of force so we don't need to apply it over time) which translates into a speed based on their weight. How fast they slow down while in hitstun is determined by their air resistance, which produces a momentum based on their speed for each frame. This momentum is of course directly opposite the direction they are flying. High speeds yield higher rate of deceleration, and as they slow down, the rate at which they slow also decreases. How dramatic the effect is based on the character's air resistance and weight.

So take four characters for example. They will be four archetypes from smash:
an aerodynamic heavy character (Equivalent to Samus's stature) Named S
an aerodynamic light character (Equivalent to Fox's stature) Named F
a high-drag heavy character (Equivalent to Bowser's stature) Named B
a high-drag light character (Equivalent to Peach's stature) Named P

Don't think of them as how they feel in smash, but how they would operate in real life; Samus is smooth metal, more streamlined, but very heavy. Fox is also streamlined, but much lighter. Bowser is very heavy, and his size, shell, and spikes give him a large surface area and high drag. Peach his very light, and has a poofy dress that catches the air, so she has very high drag. To help reduce confusion, just think of the general shape rather than the characters themselves, and apply it more to real world physics.



When hit with an attack and affected by constant momentum:
S is heavy, so he is launched at a lower speed. Because he is also aerodynamic and his air resistance isn't strong and doesn't have a strong effect on his great weight, he doesn't slow down as quickly- his speed remains more constant until the end of hitstun than most characters. Going up, gravity decelerates him at the constant rate, but air resistance going upward doesn't have much effect because he is aerodynamic, and because his high weight reduces the momentum it applies, so his final rate of deceleration upward is the lowest of all characters. Going down, gravity isn't much inhibited by air resistance, and since he is heavy, that air resistance doesn't affect him much, so he accelerates downward very quickly if traveling under terminal velocity, and decelerates slowly if traveling over terminal velocity. His terminal velocity is also high.

F is light, so he is launched at a higher speed. He is also aerodynamic, meaning there is little air resistance, but his low weight allows him to be more affected by it than S. He slows down at a moderate rate. Going up, gravity decelerates him at the constant speed. Air resistance going up is low, but still has a moderate effect because of his low weight. His final rate of deceleration upward is rather moderate, and faster than S. Going down, gravity accelerates him at a rate, and his low air resistance is enough to act on his low weight to slow his rate of downward acceleration more than S. From under terminal velocity, he reaches it slower than S, but when traveling faster than terminal velocity, he slows down to it sooner than S. His terminal velocity will also be lower.

B is heavy, so he is launched at a lower speed. His high air resistance only affects him moderately because of his great weight, so he slows down at a rate similar to F, although for a different reason. Going up, gravity decelerates him at a constant speed, and that rate of deceleration is added to by moderate deceleration from high drag acting on high weight. Going down, when traveling under terminal velocity, gravity accelerates him at a constant rate, but less so than S because of his high drag acting on his high weight to produce moderate deceleration. Traveling over terminal velocity, the greater speed allows him to slow down to terminal velocity faster than S (about the same rate as F) because of his high drag acting on his high weight, producing a moderate effect. His terminal velocity is probably close to that of F.

P is light, so she is launched at a higher speed. However, her high air resistance affects her greatly because of her low weight, so she slows down the fastest of all characters. Going up, gravity decelerates her at a constant speed, and her high drag compounds on that greatly due to her low weight. Going down, when under terminal velocity, she speeds up to terminal velocity very slowly because her high drag strongly affects her low weight to counteract her downward momentum gained from gravity. When over terminal velocity, she slows down to it at a high rate because of the strong effect of drag. Her terminal velocity is very low.

Now that I've got all those out, here would be the effects on each character of how they play or are played against when hit.



How this affects offensive metagame against the characters:
Keep in mind that these things will be diversified and vary between characters, especially based on their movesets. But in terms of just their physical properties, the following can be appropriately extrapolated.

When S gets hit, he doesn't travel very fast to start with, but he maintains that momentum very well, even once out of hitstun, so he is one of the most difficult to combo. However, he dies earlier than other heavy characters from ringouts characters because he has a hard time slowing down. Metagame against him is likely to revolve more around ring outs for kills and shorter combos for positioning him. Because of his high velocity and quick downward acceleration, he will also be harder to juggle since he'll be able to get down to the ground quicker and because upward hits have him flying for a longer distance.

When F is high, he travels very fast to start with, but slows down at a slightly greater rate than S. Since he doesn't travel quite as far from the same launch speed (he hangs more since he slows down more quickly) he is slightly easier to combo, and slightly harder to ring out. The difference would be pretty moderate for either of those effects, though. Metagame against him wouldn't favor either ringouts or kills much more than the other, but neither alone would be as effective as ringouts are against S, or kills are against P. His fast falling and falling speeds will be lower than S, and vertical knockback doesn't send him as far or as quickly, so he'll be easier to juggle than S.

B is actually very similar to F. The main difference is that it takes more damage to send him flying than F. But when launched at the same speed (requiring more damage for this to happen to B due to his great weight counteracting knockback momentum) the trajectories of their flights are very similar, and thus offensive metagame against them is likely to be similar after the early percentages; however this character is likely to be much larger than F, so in terms of size, he will generally be easier to hit and combo.

P is like an opposite of S. When hit, she travels very quickly to start, but not for very long, as she slows down at a much greater rate than S. In fact, in many cases, she will likely be traveling very slowly, or perhaps not even at all, by the time she gets out of hitstun. She will be the easiest to combo (notice that the peach equivalent is completely opposite to peach herself in this regard). Since she slows down so quickly, metagame against her will revolve around either killing her through health depletion, since she is so easy to combo, or ringing her out at high percents. She will also be pretty easy to juggle since she will have a hard time getting back to the ground with her low falling and fast falling speeds.



Maybe if you read this you got the idea. It sounds complicated written down but really it's only based on a two character-constant values (air resistance and weight), a constant universal value (acceleration due to gravity), a variable input value (the knockback, or applied momentum of a hit) and a couple equations. Smash has three character-constant values (gravity, terminal velocity, weight), a constant universal value (launch speed deceleration), a variable input value (knockback) and of course the equations that determine trajectory. The method is actually not any more complicated than smash (maybe simpler) although the results seem more complex.My system is more consistent with reality, and more consistent internally, with less values that seem arbitrarily assigned, even if from within a reasonable range. They also produce more combo scenarios for players to consider, as some characters get knocked far initially but slow down quickly for a kind of hang, some characters don't get knocked far initially, but fly at a more constant rate, some characters are inbetween in both instances or just one. In addition, I feel this fits better in our system of allowing multiple types of wins (ring-out vs health depletion) as it asks the players to focus more on one of the other for some characters, or on both at once for others still. An additional reason for suggesting this physics system as an alternative to that of smash's is that it seems kind of silly and unnecessary to apply a character's terminal velocity to them even when they are traveling up, and to not have different characters' horizontal launch speeds decay at different rates despite P having a huge puffy dress that would catch huge amounts of wind while S is streamlined and very aerodynamic in shape and not be affected much by the medium. That silliness is why a lot of new players often feel that fox and falco are heavy, despite being light, because since their terminal velocity is applied soon after knockback as a downward speed, they appear to suffer less upward knockback, and the inverse for someone like Samus. The basics of this system will likely be more intuitive for new players (to a certain extent). Please note also that this won't completely remove the idea of "floaty" or "fast falling" characters, but will make those ideas more specific to falling (and more consistent with reality) as opposed to being relevant to any vertical momentum, as it works in smash.

Also it would be kinda fun to be able to calculate if heavy-weight hard-hitter B actually does hit like a train. We'll have closer to real world numbers to work off of.


Here's another post I made about realistic ground physics in the same hypothetical game, and how they would benefit from the hybrid KO system. This one's shorter.

Okay, so here's my thing on traction-

In the real world, there are two types of friction, kinetic and static. They operate for moving objects and still objects respectively, and static friction is always (or maybe almost always) greater that kinetic friction, which explains why it is easier to keep something moving when you're pushing it along the ground then to start it moving in the first place. Force of friction is determined by a function of a material's friction coefficient with the material of the surface (differs for static/kinetic friction) and its normal force (I think that what it's called at least). Normal force is just the force perpendicular towards the surface upon which the object is experiences friction. For a flat surface, it's the same as weight (but usually done in newtons). For our purposes though, we can disregard angled surfaces as having different normal forces by just using characters' weights as their normal force, and then assigning friction coefficients to them. There are two ways to go about this though- we could either have static and kinetic frictions be the same, equivalent value, which would be more internally consistent and intuitive; or we could use a separate value for each, which would allows us to temper each character's resistance to being pushed back by a hit (disregarding SDI) in the same way that weight (which is also a force) allows a character to resist being launched vertically, but separately from kinetic friction, which would apply for a character that dash stops, or pulls a wavedash-esque maneuver where he slides along the ground. Here's how it works, both for force due to gravity (weight) and friction force: If a knockback vector exceed that value (friction or weight, depending on the direction), the character accelerates in that direction for the prescribed amount of time the force is applied (the one frame after hitlag, for ease) at a rate based on the friction force or force due to gravity subtracted from the knockback force. If knockback force does not exceed either of those forces, the character experiences no acceleration, and thus is not launched (in the case of weight) or pushed horizontally along the ground (in the case of friction). Of course, the two work together, but with their respective vectors, in the case of moves with diagonal knockback angles. If we do the hitstun formula properly (a function of weight and knockback would be sufficient I think), this allows us to implement low damage/knockback moves in the game that put the opponent in hitstun without moving them (disregarding SDI). Which in turns allows for short, weak combos at low damage that require SDI to escape. Of course, since knockback increases with damage, these would be short lived in terms of viability for each stock, EXCEPT in the case of moves with set knockback below the friction force/force due to gravity for some (or even all) characters. Only downside to this system would be requiring balancing on moves that are fast enough to loop into themselves or other moves like themselves that are below those force thresholds, but I imagine that wouldn't be very difficult.

imagine having fox's shine be below the friction threshold for some characters, that would be so silly

I think we could apply the same principle with shielding/blocking, but with the shield/block returning a small percentage of the horizontal pushback back to the attacker (free of hitstun ofc) to give us a mechanism for pushback on shield.


The physics system, this one most especially, is one of the reasons why the hybrid KO design may or may not fit into the game. Of course, these posts also assume the game has a combo heirarchy. It's not necessary for it to work of course, it's just that I posted these talking about such a game.

When I get the chance I'll post about a few other things that determine whether or not the dual-death design (I'm having fun coming up with names for this) is suitable, including chip damage; option selects during combos, recovery, shield pressure, knockdowns, etc; shield mechanics; and character variety.
 

KrIsP!

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Excited, you should definitely try to get this on steam's greenlight and get a kickstarter up and running (I know one is coming). I'm sure this game is going to take off and I'm happy something so awesome is coming out of the melee community in a way. Being that it's called air dash I'm assuming it'll have an emphasis on movement the way smash does, maybe more so in the air. Can't wait to see some gameplay, especially with Mike Z on board, not only does this seem like it'll be amazing but it seems like this'll be the bridge between melee and skull girls lol.
 

JV5Chris

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Streaming some character modeling for Tesla:



Big shout out to Clash Tournaments for hosting:



(Click Here)

Keeping it casual, so feel free to come in and talk/ask about anything from Smash Brothers, ADO, 3D modeling, getting into the biz, Smash Brothers, anything really.
 

V-K

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Oh god please no health bar, too much projectile spam. If you do it, please make it optional.
 
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Oh god please no health bar, too much projectile spam. If you do it, please make it optional.
What?

What do projectiles have anything to do with a health bar? Unless you're referencing SSF4.
 

JV5Chris

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Don't think there is a right or wrong answer concerning the addition of a health bar, as it largely depends on what the focus of the fighting game is.

To play devil's advocate though, kills by depleting health would certainly shift the player's approach at the end of a stock. You would see a lot more low risk, high reach attacks ending matches.
 
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Don't think there is a right or wrong answer concerning the addition of a health bar, as it largely depends on what the focus is of the fighting game is.

To play devil's advocate though, kills by depleting health would certainly shift the player's approach at the end of a stock. You would see a lot more low risk, high reach attacks ending matches.
It depends. You could a GUTS mechanic like in Guilty Gear, thus meaning you need stronger hits to earn the kills.

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Guilty_Gear_XX_Accent_Core

Likewise, if it's stock-based with HP, it would follow suit to the main core of Smash, as people could have more leeway to make risky moves.
 

Crispy4001

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Meant to post sunday, but the forums were down then, and I've been busy since. Haven't really got time right now to organize a big 'ol post, but I DO have time to copy a post I already made, from a private conversation a few of us, myself, Kink-Link, Joe!, and a few others are part of.

.... [more]
So if I'm following all this right, the goal essentially would be to have momentum and weight play a larger role than (variable) knockback in of itself. And that all varies character by character to a much larger degree than in Smash. It's an interesting idea that I hope you guys get a chance to explore.

Still have some misgivings with it - how important ledge guarding is would vary greatly depending on who you play against. It would play more like a traditional fighter in a way against those characters hard to push to and off the ledge. But I can't imagine the knockback inconsistency (even moreso than in Smash) between characters going over too well with that audience. It wouldn't bridge the gap so much as be its own thing. Which is quite ok, in my book.

ADO is bound to run into that on some level as well. But keeping the emphasis on ring-outs and ledge-guarding should resonate more with Smashers initially, at least I'd think. Project M is a good case in point on that. Who knows, maybe ADO will 'soften' the FGC (trad fighter and Smash fans alike) as a whole up to more experimentation. Could actually benefit you guys that they're doing this now.

Or maybe SSB4 comes out as some weird cross of Smash and Tekken, and we all go wtf.
 

oats_

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Just wondering, you say this game will be based on melee. What role will tech skills have in this game? Will there be mechanics like wavedashing and L-Canceling?

Also, what is this about a stamina style health bar? What's wrong with the scaling knockback at higher percentage style of melee?
 

DrinkingFood

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What if you trade double jumps for air dashes all together and made air dashes omnidirectional and universal (at least one per character)? Would hold true to the name of the game, as well as consolidate both forms of air movement. Double-jumping in this case would be an air dash upward, which would work the same way, but in this format, for characters that only get one airdash, selecting their direction becomes more important.
Hell you could even throw out air dodges in favor or this system, as this would allow various wave landing/wave dashing shenanigans.

Might I ask, are you guys considering aerial blocking/shielding? I'm curious to see it affects the smash formula, but am worried it may completely wreck it...

Also @crispy, just to clarify, the differences between the drag coefficients of each character in such a system wouldn't necessarily have to be such large differences that it makes the combos based that much more on the opponent's character choice, but only so that there would be a non-negligible difference. Not so much the difference between, say, jigg's and falco's falling speed, but more like... the difference between that of Peach's and Link's, or less even.

Oh god please no health bar, too much projectile spam. If you do it, please make it optional.
... Well regardless of the small distinctions that it wouldn't be a separate health bar, there's also the fact that, idk, projectiles will still get spammed if they're good, and won't if they aren't. What you're talking about is an issue of designing projectile strength and utility in coordination with that of CQC to fit the desired gameplay design. That's not really an issue with the hybrid KO system. There's no reason there couldn't be methods of deflecting projectiles, like an easier (and better designed) version of PSing or the grazing mechanic in some Touhou fighters (which I know little about, I've only seen what Kink-Link briefly introduced me to).
 

.selebu

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Sorry to break into this thread with such a nonsense comment but...
I would love to see more of this game! Will happily back it on kickstarter!
 

Biinii

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I honestly hope that ADO is a direct ripoff of the Smash Bros. series mechanics. I am tired of playing games that try to "innovate" or whatever based on the smash formula, and most of the time they suck, on rare cases they are enjoyable.

It is very likely that Nintendo wont cover grounds like real leaderboards, decent netplay, constant patching and real competitive input. This plus a thoroughly tested and not only approved, but loved and worshipped mechanics is what I'm dying for. This is what my heart aches for, what I dream of.
 
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I honestly hope that ADO is a direct ripoff of the Smash Bros. series mechanics. I am tired of playing games that try to "innovate" or whatever based on the smash formula, and most of the time they suck, on rare cases they are enjoyable.

It is very likely that Nintendo wont cover grounds like real leaderboards, decent netplay, constant patching and real competitive input. This plus a thoroughly tested and not only approved, but loved and worshipped mechanics is what I'm dying for. This is what my heart aches for, what I dream of.
Project M already exists, and I'm sure we'll see hacks for Smash 4 as well.
 

Mr.Jackpot

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I honestly hope that ADO is a direct ripoff of the Smash Bros. series mechanics. I am tired of playing games that try to "innovate" or whatever based on the smash formula, and most of the time they suck, on rare cases they are enjoyable.

It is very likely that Nintendo wont cover grounds like real leaderboards, decent netplay, constant patching and real competitive input. This plus a thoroughly tested and not only approved, but loved and worshipped mechanics is what I'm dying for. This is what my heart aches for, what I dream of.

This except for constant patching. Constant patches are bad, unless the game isn't done yet.
 

Ussi

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I'll def try this game out.

About stamina/HP bar

Make it a 2ndary win condition. The main focus will be ring outs, but make the stamina cap absurdly high like in brawl's terms: 200%-250% (dependant on character)

In fact.. A stamina bar does open up opportunities for niche characters like too easy to recover with but dies at like 100% (and would die to kill moves around 60-70% but too hard to safety hit them)
 

Daouzin

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Hey, guys

I just wanted to let you guys know that if you missed the live stream of the Tesla Modeling you can still view it here:
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/398720427
It's a cool thing to watch if you're just interested in the process.

Also. I don't know if I saw it over Twitter or in another forum post, but people were under the impression that Smash players only had 1 day to get ADO's facebook page to 1,000 likes. That's not true. JV5Games will be sending Ice to EVO once we hit 1,000 likes on facebook so if you haven't liked our facebook page, you should do that now.

We appreciate it.

Carlos
 

Gene

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Hey, guys

I just wanted to let you guys know that if you missed the live stream of the Tesla Modeling you can still view it here:
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/398720427
It's a cool thing to watch if you're just interested in the process.

Also. I don't know if I saw it over Twitter or in another forum post, but people were under the impression that Smash players only had 1 day to get ADO's facebook page to 1,000 likes. That's not true. JV5Games will be sending Ice to EVO once we hit 1,000 likes on facebook so if you haven't liked our facebook page, you should do that now.

We appreciate it.

Carlos
Cool, I'm definitely checking this out now. And I'm looking forward to the rest of the game's progress!
 

Kaffie

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Sounds good. Got a question about this. Will you be able to use bair attacks while moving in the direction you're facing (a la C-stick)? If so, how might that work on a keyboard or fightstick?
I have an idea for how this could be solved with keyboard and stick. You can have a button that when it's being held down makes you unable to controll the characters movement in the air. If the game only uses two buttons like in smash it should be easy to do.
So like, if you jump away from your opponent and want to bair at the same time, you hold the anti-movement-button while pressing the attack button and back on the fight stick. Thus you keep going forward while still doing a bair. The same thing if you want to do an up-air without dubble jumping.
Maybe there are problems with this solution but I can't really see any.

The analog will be limited to 8-way directional controlling but it will allow you to control run-speed with out double tapping the stick(or holding a button)
Maybe the same kind of thing could work for this? I think double tapping could feel a bit weird in a fast paced melee type game. You could have a button that you hold for running(or maybe for not running, since you pretty much allways want to run) and for short/full jumping. For example, if you hold the button you run and shorthop whenever you jump, when you don't hold it you walk and full jump whenever you jump. Or vice versa. Maybe you could even choose your own preference from the options menu?
 

Crispy4001

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An anti-movement button doesn't sound very intuitive. Probably not a great design decision either. It's a band-aid fix for a larger problem.

Smash uses at the very least 3 buttons, 4 comfortably (ie: button jump, not tap jump). A run button sounds a little more intuitive, but that would bring the total up to 5. For the keyboard, that's stretching it IMO.
 

V-K

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You shouldn't play a game like this with a keyboard anyway lol. It's never gonna be as good as using a controller.
 

KrIsP!

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You could just use buttons for attacks and buttons for movement. Or plug in a controller because pc works with every controller.
 
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