After the SDCC tournament yesterday... I'm having doubts Smash 4 will be a good competitive game.

[pizzapie7]

Interesting analogy, but blocking doesn't win because blocking doesn't get KOs. So attack is always viable because attacking is the only way to get points on the board.

Then again, I tend to play defense a lot so... yeah.

Winning isn't as simple as getting points on the board in any competition. Blocking will help you win an interaction against attacking, which could then set you up to potentially net a KO or just put you in a more favorable position.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

No offense to that guy or anyone who shares that opinion, but I think more than anything thats indicative of bias people have for a certain type of game. I made a post earlier about commitment vs cancel based games (what hes describing). Its completely understandable of people like cancel based games and anyone who's a die-hard fan of melee will probably have a bit of a bias for that, but its not the only way to design a game. I think more than anything this is what people who want more cancels in the game need to understand, that the game might have mechanics that arent bad but that they simply wont enjoy as much as melee even if others do. (For the record, smash 4 seems to have the second most amount of cancels in the series and be in the middle of melee and brawl in terms of movement cancels).

I'm genuinely baffled as to how someone could have read even a portion of my post and come to the conclusion that I was talking about cancels. In fact, as early as the second paragraph I explicitly stated that I was talking about fundamental movement, and not advanced tactics (the only way to cancel effectively, to my knowledge). I went on to reiterate this point several times. There's no need to speculate on what I was discussing, or fill in the blanks, as I was very thorough in detailing my argument.


Please folks, make sure you're examining each other's posts before responding to them.... or, you know, bothering to read them at all.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Winning isn't as simple as getting points on the board in any competition. Blocking will help you win an interaction against attacking, which could then set you up to potentially net a KO or just put you in a more favorable position.

At which point you are now attacking. Based on the anology, all the other guy has to do is block now. See why it doesn't really hold up?

I get the point he's making but I'm calling him out on the hyperbole.

 

[Renji64]

I've been thinking about it, and I think I've discovered what my real problem is with the new direction of the series. This new smash template is simply not as intuitive to control on a fundamental level. There's a direct connection between player and character in both Melee and Smash 64 that is instantly gratifying. You truly feel as if the character is an extension of your mind; if you can think it, you can do it. Brawl simply didn't have this intuitive feel. It was clunky, it was messy, and it was imprecise. Simply put, it was less fun to control. I felt like I was fighting against the engine, rather than flowing with it.

I'm not talking about advanced mechanics here, I'm talking about basic movement options and functionality. Hugs summed it up best when he said Smash 4, like Brawl, does not allow you to go where you want and do what you want to do with ease. Your mind and the game are not simpatico as they were in the earlier iterations. Dashing is stunted, and gimped. In Melee and 64, there's an immediate responsiveness and precision in directing your character. Dash dancing feels right, because the input you're performing is reflected by the character. Air movement feels good, because it's directly influenced by your momentum. It made sense. When you performed an action, it was carried out immediately, and acted in a way that felt right. Your character grabs the ledge at a times that are contextually and physically appropriate... There was no jarring magnet like pull that defied the physics of the games themselves. Brawl is full of these strange mechanisms. It doesn't feel, or look, right.

All observations and reports indicate that this is once again the case in Smash 4. So... why? Why is this being done? Everyone appreciates agency. Casuals and pros alike want a game that makes them feel like they're in control. You want to lower the barrier for entry? Slow the game down, take away advanced techniques... but is it really necessary to sand down the edges on the freedom of movement the series is beloved for?

I've even had a few casual players play Brawl and Project M one after the other to test this theory, and they all agreed that Project M simply felt better. They used terms like "stiff" and "clumsy" to describe Brawl in comparison. Sure, it was a small sample size, but it did confirm that it wasn't a mere matter of my personal bias.

Anything is competitively viable if you want it to be. The speed of the game doesn't bother me. The number of advanced tactics don't concern me. I just want Smash to feel good again.

Dem feels.

 

[pizzapie7]

At which point you are now attacking. Based on the anology, all the other guy has to do is block now. See why it doesn't really hold up?

I get the point he's making but I'm calling him out on the hyperbole.

He can't block if he's in hitstun. The RPS is really only for neutral interactions when someone decides to approach. If I chose attack and you chose block, you can then punish me for choosing wrong because you've won. Any attacking you do is from your choice of block.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Interesting analogy, but blocking doesn't win because blocking doesn't get KOs. So attack is always viable because attacking is the only way to get points on the board.

Then again, I tend to play defense a lot so... yeah.

Actually, blocking does win.

Step 1: Land one hit.
Step 2: Wait 8 minutes.
Step 3: Win by damage timeout.

It may not be that extreme, but it'll be pretty close with the current power of shields right now.

I think its fine to get theirs or anyones opinion. Even a casual noob's opinion can be helpful. They just need to be take with a grain of salt for reasons I mentioned.

I assume that passive-aggressive flame was pointed at me, so I won't dignify it by arguing.

 

[Cassio]

I'm genuinely baffled as to how someone could have read even a portion of my post and come to the conclusion that I was talking about cancels. In fact, as early as the second paragraph I explicitly stated that I was talking about fundamental movement, and not advanced tactics (the only way to cancel effectively, to my knowledge). I went on to reiterate this point several times. There's no need to speculate on what I was discussing, or fill in the blanks, as I was very thorough in detailing my argument.


Please folks, make sure you're examining each other's posts before responding to them.... or, you know, bothering to read them at all.

Have you played smash 4? The basic movement itself is easily crisper than any other smash game in the series. You can't talk about melees good movement without cancels (wave dashing, dance dancing, etc.), and is entirely what people mean when they say melee has more control over movement than other games in the series.

I assume that passive-aggressive flame was pointed at me, so I won't dignify it by arguing.

No? I wasnt even thinking of you at all when I posted that.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Actually, blocking does win.

Step 1: Land one hit.
Step 2: Wait 8 minutes.
Step 3: Win by damage timeout.

It may not be that extreme, but it'll be pretty close with the current power of shields right now.

I think you guys need to change your rules then if RPS mechanics are screwing you over.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

You though Bowser's ledge snap was bad?

Watch Mario at 1:50.

 

[Senario]

You though Bowser's ledge snap was bad?

Watch Mario at 1:50.

Wat, that is even worse than brawl for how far you can snap lol. To be fair I think mario had that snap even in melee (magnet gloves woo!) But that is just silly now lol.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Wat, that is even worse than brawl for how far you can snap lol. To be fair I think mario had that snap even in melee (magnet gloves woo!) But that is just silly now lol.

I laughed so hard honestly. Mario was NOWHERE near that ledge. It's like the ledge summoned Mario over. I hope stuff like that has been toned down in the current build.

 

[Bladeviper]

You though Bowser's ledge snap was bad?

Watch Mario at 1:50.

i mean i think and hope it was a bug since it just looks bad

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I think it's pretty clear that Sakurai wants matches to actually happen on the stage now and for characters to stay in play longer.

 

[DraginHikari]

I guess I've never understood the problem with the ledge snap issues that people had with Brawl. From what I've seen it matters even less in Smash 4 since it seems like a number of recoveries have been improved besides just the ledge mechanics.

As far as the video given how it was a CPU character and the animation was awkward that I'm going to assume there was something else going on there.

 

[The Slayer]

You though Bowser's ledge snap was bad?

Watch Mario at 1:50.

Even in Brawl, you're guaranteed to lose a point/stock like that. I think they're making ledge grabbing almost too easy to hook on this time around. But as @ Senario mentioned, it's just Mario being Mario.

 

[Senario]

I guess I've never understood the problem with the ledge snap issues that people had with Brawl. From what I've seen it matters even less in Smash 4 since it seems like a number of recoveries have been improved besides just the ledge mechanics.

As far as the video given how it was a CPU character and the animation was awkward that I'm going to assume there was something else going on there.

I think the main problem people had with it is that it doesn't look right, the person who was recovering is clearly out of range of the ledge but still grabbed it. Auto sweetspotting is fine, just the distance at which you can grab the ledge is often way farther than where the characters actually are.

This may matter less because some of the newer chars have stupid big recoveries in this game but it still doesn't feel good as a player to knock a player off the edge and see that they were nowhere near the ledge to grab it but still live.

 

[Bladeviper]

I guess I've never understood the problem with the ledge snap issues that people had with Brawl. From what I've seen it matters even less in Smash 4 since it seems like a number of recoveries have been improved besides just the ledge mechanics.

As far as the video given how it was a CPU character and the animation was awkward that I'm going to assume there was something else going on there.

im like 90% sure it was a bug, it even looks buggy as crap so here is hoping i guess lol

 

[Phaazoid]

I think it's pretty clear that Sakurai wants matches to actually happen on the stage now and for characters to stay in play longer.

Well, that and he seems to want edge guarding to be more about aerial clashes than who can sneak the edge.

 

[Padô]

I don't know guys, the ledge is weird in this game/build still. I've see people comming from below and snapping the ledge ridiculously far and I've seen people comming horizontaly and taking sometime to snap the ledge, also I've see some Pits going straight up de ledge without grabbing it with his UpB... It's something we have still to figure out.

Ninja'd twice

 

[DraginHikari]

I think the main problem people had with it is that it doesn't look right, the person who was recovering is clearly out of range of the ledge but still grabbed it. Auto sweetspotting is fine, just the distance at which you can grab the ledge is often way farther than where the characters actually are.

This may matter less because some of the newer chars have stupid big recoveries in this game but it still doesn't feel good as a player to knock a player off the edge and see that they were nowhere near the ledge to grab it but still live.

Oh I definitely understand the weirdness of that particular video, as I said since it was a CPU character that did it and not a PC makes me question if that was actually suppose to happen or if was just a goofy result of the bugginess of the build.

 

[Bladeviper]

Well, that and he seems to want edge guarding to be more about aerial clashes than who can sneak the edge.

i like it like that personally though, to me it makes it more exciting

 

[Phaazoid]

i like it like that personally though, to me it makes it more exciting

I agree. The ledge game in melee was definitely satisfying in it's own way, but if I knew nothing about melee and you described it to me, I might not know you were talking about a fighting game.

I think we have a lot to learn about the new ledge games, what with being able to run straight off ledges now, stealing ledges, grapple mechanics, and lots of crazy recoveries. It's also probably going to impact how good powerhouses like Little Mac who can't recover are.

 

[Bladeviper]

I agree. The ledge game in melee was definitely satisfying in it's own way, but if I knew nothing about melee and you described it to me, I might not know you were talking about a fighting game.

I think we have a lot to learn about the new ledge games, what with being able to run straight off ledges now, stealing ledges, grapple mechanics, and lots of crazy recoveries. It's also probably going to impact how good powerhouses like Little Mac who can't recover are.

he cant jump but you cant block his uppercut, trade offs mang

 

[smashbroskilla]

We've seen one build of each version of the game, neither of them are final. And neither you nor the OP have have had much time to the play the game. So, I don't know who you mean by "hundreds of different people" but I can say that you, nor the OP "count"

This topic is tired. Real tired.

I agree this topic is old but that doesn't make it anymore less worth talking about. I can still watch hours of footage of people breaking down game mechanics. Youtube search "Smash bros Wii U" and you will find a million links of recorded gameplay. How is that not viable information to go off of? Are you saying that video recorded data breakdown of the game up to this point is less viable than assuming mechanics will get a major overhaul come launch? Maybe you're happy with the mechanics up to this point. Many of us are not; hence these threads that keep popping up. And yes, there are a hundred different youtube channels covering the mechanics of SB4.

Here, let me youtube search that for you:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=smash+bros+wii+u+game+mechanics+breakdown

Are you telling me none of these testimonials by people are credible? And that's a very specific search you can even be more broad than that.

 

[Phaazoid]

he cant jump but you cant block his uppercut, trade offs mang

But his uppercut also doesn't get very good height when used in the air. I just mean that a lot of characters seem to have really good recoveries this time around, with Mac looking like a glaring exception, probably due to his ridiculous ground game.

 

[Senario]

I agree. The ledge game in melee was definitely satisfying in it's own way, but if I knew nothing about melee and you described it to me, I might not know you were talking about a fighting game.

I think we have a lot to learn about the new ledge games, what with being able to run straight off ledges now, stealing ledges, grapple mechanics, and lots of crazy recoveries. It's also probably going to impact how good powerhouses like Little Mac who can't recover are.

The way I see it it could work in several ways. 1) People will go chase a person off the edge because their recovery is big enough to make it back onto the stage (great)
2) People will have a hard time chasing somebody off the stage if their recovery is not so good (little mac) and be at a significant disadvantage to getting KO's because the opponent with good recovery likely will always get the edge.

 

[Phaazoid]

The way I see it it could work in several ways. 1) People will go chase a person off the edge because their recovery is big enough to make it back onto the stage (great)
2) People will have a hard time chasing somebody off the stage if their recovery is not so good (little mac) and be at a significant disadvantage to getting KO's because the opponent with good recovery likely will always get the edge.

Well, what other characters do we know that have bad recoveries? I think between the ledge snaps and the boosted recoveries we've seen, Little Mac is really the only one who stands out to me as a character to not chase others off the edge. And I feel that was kind of a point in his design, to be able to KO from the stage.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

You can't talk about melees good movement without cancel

.

but... I did. That was the bulk of the content in my post. Again though, you clearly have not read it, or refuse to comprehend it if you did. I see no point in continuing the conversation

 

[Cassio]

but... I did. That was the bulk of the content in my post. Again though, you clearly have not read it, or refuse to comprehend it if you did. I see no point in continuing the conversation

I dont mean you specifically, I mean more objectively. In any case it wasnt something you explained besides a few subjective comments, Im just telling you the statement you made is false. Melees movement would not be what it is without movement cancels like dash dancing, wave dashing, crouch canceling, etc.

 

[Senario]

Well, what other characters do we know that have bad recoveries? I think between the ledge snaps and the boosted recoveries we've seen, Little Mac is really the only one who stands out to me as a character to not chase others off the edge. And I feel that was kind of a point in his design, to be able to KO from the stage.

Captain Falcon has a kinda meh recovery, Link doesn't have a good one anymore without his hookshot but I need to review that footage. Can't think of another char that doesn't have a great recovery, maybe Samus if you can no longer use the bombs(mines). Shiek's recovery is just ok, and same with Peach.

 

[Phaazoid]

Captain Falcon has a kinda meh recovery, Link doesn't have a good one anymore without his hookshot but I need to review that footage. Can't think of another char that doesn't have a great recovery, maybe Samus if you can no longer use the bombs(mines). Shiek's recovery is just ok, and same with Peach.

Well to be fair, we haven't seen any of Falcon's recovery yet. Link/Samus has the grapple which seems to be buffedd, and bomb jumping worked in the demo (source - I did it in smash run). Peach has the float.

I feel like the characters who get crappy recoveries will be given something to make up for it, with Little Mac.

Of course I'm just guessing right now, we haven't seen a lot of character's recoveries at all yet, let alone how they play. I'm just hoping for interesting aerial combat, especially off stage, because it gives me that many more opportunities to spike; which is one of the most satisfying things in the game imo.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

I dont meant you specifically, I mean more objectively. In any case it wasnt something you explained besides a few subjective comments, Im just telling you the statement you made is false. Melees movement would not be what it is without movement cancels like dash dancing, wave dashing, crouch canceling, etc.

Wow. Impressive way to dismiss an entire argument without addressing it all. On top of that you restated your simple premise, which my initial post refuted, without even attempting to qualify it. Good form. Internet debating 101.

 

[Cassio]

Wow. Impressive way to dismiss an entire argument without addressing it all. On top of that you restated your simple premise, which my initial post refuted, without even attempting to qualify it. Good form. Internet debating 101.

I would be happy to address an actual argument. Writing a wall of text does not mean youve made an argument. This:

This new smash template is simply not as intuitive to control on a fundamental level. There's a direct connection between player and character in both Melee and Smash 64 that is instantly gratifying. You truly feel as if the character is an extension of your mind; if you can think it, you can do it. Brawl simply didn't have this intuitive feel. It was clunky, it was messy, and it was imprecise. Simply put, it was less fun to control. I felt like I was fighting against the engine, rather than flowing with it.

And this:

I'm not talking about advanced mechanics here, I'm talking about basic movement options and functionality. Hugs summed it up best when he said Smash 4, like Brawl, does not allow you to go where you want and do what you want to do with ease. Your mind and the game are not simpatico as they were in the earlier iterations. Dashing is stunted, and gimped. In Melee and 64, there's an immediate responsiveness and precision in directing your character.

And this:

When you performed an action, it was carried out immediately, and acted in a way that felt right. Your character grabs the ledge at a times that are contextually and physically appropriate... There was no jarring magnet like pull that defied the physics of the games themselves. Brawl is full of these strange mechanisms. It doesn't feel, or look, right.

Is all worth ignoring. They are not arguments. They're emotional nonsense and personal testimony that along with your snark make this look silly. Someone could exchange the words Melee with Brawl and its ledge mechanics and the claim would be just as accurate.

The only thing you actually used as an argument was dash dancing, which cancels movement as Ive stated; and air momentum, which is the only reasonable thing youve used.

 

[Snowbird]

Personally, I don't have a lot of faith at all in the current game. It just looks really slow, the lag behind a lot of the moves is huge with no apparent way to cancel it. It just looks unenjoyable to play a slower and less technical game, and I think if things don't pick up, it will die out like brawl and melee will remain the esports game.

 

[Chimera]

I agree this topic is old but that doesn't make it anymore less worth talking about.

I disagree.

I can still watch hours of footage of people breaking down game mechanics. Youtube search "Smash bros Wii U" and you will find a million links of recorded gameplay. How is that not viable information to go off of?

1. Not a final build. 2. Limited playtime. 3. Limited roster 4. Limited stage choices 5. Unfamiliarity with the game. 6. Confirmation bias.

Are you saying that video recorded data breakdown of the game up to this point is less viable than assuming mechanics will get a major overhaul come launch?

Who asked for that? I'm saying that stating that the game won't be competitively viable because of a limited perception of shielding (And it's a viewing of the game. The perception isn't even from playing the game). The meta for this game will be discovered throughout the game's lifetime, not the extremely limited time anyone's had to play the game.

Maybe you're happy with the mechanics up to this point.

So far, so good.

Many of us are not

Then don't play it, or at least keep the discussion contained instead of drowning the forum in the exact same discussion.

And yes, there are a hundred different youtube channels covering the mechanics of SB4.

From the same demo we've had a chance to play. A very, very limited demo. Wavedashing wasn't known when we starting playing Melee, and Meta Knight wasn't known to be broken. As the game develops, so will the meta. You're not going to come to anything close to a proper analysis or conclusion on the game from what we have so far.

Here, let me youtube search that for you:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=smash bros wii u game mechanics breakdown

Gee, thanks. I'm just so incompetent when it comes to typing things in a search box. Which video is yours though? Or the OP's?

Are you telling me none of these testimonials by people are credible? And that's a very specific search you can even be more broad than that.

Credibility isn't the issue. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I'm saying that any analysis as of now is woefully incomplete, and may be inaccurate as well.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Why does one of those videos have to be mine in order to agree with the commentary in the video? Plenty of people are capable of determining what I don't have right in front of me. Lets just agree to disagree because I can tell we will go in circles on this. I think the final build will lean greatly towards what we have already seen. You think we shouldn't talk about it until the game comes out. Which is a fair statement to make. On that note, I would suggest you just leave threads like this alone because there are plenty of people who want to talk about what they've seen so far. And how can you blame them?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Then they should make Block weaker.

Because right now, there's no reason to even try to attack at all, except to try to bump up the enemy's damage a bit while you wait out the timer.

Depends on shield stun, frame data etc.

Again, making grabs super rewarding marvel style is bad because it ruins the triangle, attack/block/grab makes.

Yes shields should't be so strong they trump everything but making grabs that rewarding is also not the answer.

Same thing with making shields so bad people get trapped everytime they shield so shielding becomes a terrible option.

Like Cassio and Amph said shields weren't the main breaking point did campy play in Brawl, it was the evasive and safety other aspects had that made it an issue.

Smash 4 can balance this and at worst, there is no way this game Wol be as campy as brawl was. Not with the changes they got now.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Most of the discussion here tends to boil down to what people want the series to be, since at this point it's too soon to tell for sure whether the mechanics for Smash 4 will be properly balanced, as most of the changes from the E3 build to the final build will be balance tweaks to the existing core game or cleaning up bugs and other refinements. It's pretty clear that this game, roughly speaking, is based on the Brawl template rather than the Melee/Smash 64 template, and the controversy is between those who have no problem with the general direction Brawl was trying to go in, but feel that the game was held back by a few broken mechanics and balance issues, and those who feel that a slower, more defensive game takes away what made Smash fun for them to begin with. These people don't necessarily oppose adding new elements to the series, but would prefer for the series to progress and be refined along the Smash 64/Melee template rather than the Brawl template. I feel that this game can be successful competitively assuming the existing gameplay elements are properly balanced, and early opinions on character balance seem to be encouraging, as almost all of the characters appear to be decent. I personally have high hopes for this game competitively, and feel that it is being designed with much more forethought than previous Smash games, but I understand that a lot of competitive players won't like this game because it's very different than the Smash they fell in love with.

 

[Cassio]

Yeah this threads turned into a lot of subjective discussion about what people want the game to have instead of whats necessary for it to be competitive.

Its understandable that theres going to be a decent amount of people that wont prefer the game to others. But so far no one's really presented anything that seems to indicate the game wont be competitive, and it seems like a lot of people are having fun with the game so far.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Depends on shield stun, frame data etc.

Again, making grabs super rewarding marvel style is bad because it ruins the triangle, attack/block/grab makes.

Yes shields should't be so strong they trump everything but making grabs that rewarding is also not the answer.

Same thing with making shields so bad people get trapped everytime they shield so shielding becomes a terrible option.

Like Cassio and Amph said shields weren't the main breaking point did campy play in Brawl, it was the evasive and safety other aspects had that made it an issue.

Smash 4 can balance this and at worst, there is no way this game Wol be as campy as brawl was. Not with the changes they got now.

Yeah, I see your point with the throws. But the problem is, shields look to be exactly that strong at the moment.

Maybe there should be more anti-shield attacks. Marth's Shield Breaker does seem to be designed to do exactly that if the PotD is any indication, but the drop speed is too fast for even that to work effectively... Huh...