After the SDCC tournament yesterday... I'm having doubts Smash 4 will be a good competitive game.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah, this is exactly why a lot of other gaming communities hate us. Because they think we hate change and want everything to stay the same, and we think melee is the greatest game ever. I remember hearing M2K say somewhere that he wants the new game as much as we do because playing a game for 12 years gets kind of boring. (That's just the general gist of what he said.) Anyway, you took the words out of my mouth.

It's actually quiet the opposite. We are hated because we veer away from the traditional format of fighting games. The fact that people claim that smash isn't a fighting game, though it clearly is, is a testament that you are stating the inverse.

 

[HammerHappy]

Could you show me specifically he says this? I actually gave the OP a second read and don't see any of that.

After I read the first sentence, I was going to apologize, then I read the rest. Brawl isn't failing, its dying. Because the next incarnation is coming out soon. It was played competitively since its release in 2008 until recently. That happens to every series, its normal. "Brawl isn't competitive" is totally asinine. Every game where the outcome isn't determined by pure luck is competitive (note 'pure', even games where luck play a heavy part can be competitive, such as poker).

Failing as in past tense. As in it already failed lol. As you mentioned, this happens with every series. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that every multiplayer game created isn't considered competitively successful.

From an unbiased design perspective, Brawl was not intended for competitive play. Mechanics were even added to hinder it. This isn't Brawl vs Melee, because Smash as a series isn't designed for typical fighter comp. Flawless balance and even playing fields are not the priority, it's just in Brawl that was even less so. Still doesn't make it a bad game, but don't point to the minority inside a minority and then say that Brawl was a competitive success. It wasn't.

The hope this time around is that the Devs will nurture comp instead of ignore it as they did for both Brawl and Melee. If it comes true, we can expect for Smash 4 to blow anything Brawl and Melee did combined clean out of the water.

And do you know what I find asinine? Comparing fighting games to card games as a reason for why luck should be a deciding factor in Smash.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Also, for those of you calling themselves casual players.

Being new to the competitive side of the game and/or being less skilled =/= Casual player.

It's like saying someone who buys and smokes cigarettes and knows of the various brands and flavors is a casual smoker.

 

[Pyra]

Also, for those of you calling themselves casual players.

Being new to the competitive side of the game and/or being less skilled =/= Casual player.

It's like saying someone who buys and smokes cigarettes and knows of the various brands and flavors is a casual smoker.

This, guys.

Also, I don't claim to be a competitive Smasher (yet), but I have no rhyme or reason to call myself casual just because I don't play on a competitive level and I don't get offended by the inclusion of items and gimmicky stages (and I like playing with/on both). I'm regularly on this site talking about the game with other people, occasionally discussing controversial topics. I figure if you're on this site arguing with someone about the game, then you're by no means a casual.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Also, for those of you calling themselves casual players.

Being new to the competitive side of the game and/or being less skilled =/= Casual player.

It's like saying someone who buys and smokes cigarettes and knows of the various brands and flavors is a casual smoker.

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm still casual.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Also, for those of you calling themselves casual players.

Being new to the competitive side of the game and/or being less skilled =/= Casual player.

It's like saying someone who buys and smokes cigarettes and knows of the various brands and flavors is a casual smoker.

I consider myself to be a Casual player because I play for fun and primarily against CPUs rather than people, because I have no friends who play Smash. I consider myself to be fairly skilled, but not to the degree where I could win tournaments; I follow the game competitively, but don't play it competitively. I think considering myself to be a casual is fair.
I'm not someone who enjoys 4 person FFAs with items, though. I try to emulate competitive Smash in a casual environment for fun and to pass the time, rather than to actually be competitive. Perhaps I'm different to other casual players but I'd consider myself to be "casual", as opposed to "competitive", nonetheless.

 

[FiXalaS]

I don't know how defensive gameplay is much stronger when ZSS can deflect those spiky things DeDeDe throws, and Pit deflecting a Full Charged-Shot from Megaman by his Upperdash arm. Projectiles are much worse in this game, their animations take too much startup time (See, Pit's arrow) or, not so great hitbox (and sadly long animation, Zelda's Din's fire), it just feels that the game wants you to go run to the foe and attack!

the shield mechanics, though, we won't know 'till the game releases, and hold the controller to feel it truly.

 

[micstar615]

I consider myself to be a Casual player because I play for fun and primarily against CPUs rather than people, because I have no friends who play Smash. I consider myself to be fairly skilled, but not to the degree where I could win tournaments; I follow the game competitively, but don't play it competitively. I think considering myself to be a casual is fair.
I'm not someone who enjoys 4 person FFAs with items, though. I try to emulate competitive Smash in a casual environment for fun and to pass the time, rather than to actually be competitive. Perhaps I'm different to other casual players but I'd consider myself to be "casual", as opposed to "competitive", nonetheless.

^ I'm almost the exact same way, we're middle men (and Lucina fans). Seeing all of these debates as middle men is interesting and irritating at the same time isn't it? xD

 

[Deleted member 245254]

It's actually quiet the opposite. We are hated because we veer away from the traditional format of fighting games. The fact that people claim that smash isn't a fighting game, though it clearly is, is a testament that you are stating the inverse.

No it's not. The "Smash isn't a fighting game" BS died out years ago. It might still flop around among a small minority, but in general when your game is at EVO 2 years in a row and pulls in the most viewers the event has ever seen, it tends to quiet that minority.

We DO veer away from the traditional fighting game format in that unlike other fighting franchises we refuse to move on to the newer game like they do, which is what the person your quoting is saying. And he's absolutely correct.

 

[pizzapie7]

Good question, to which most would just tell you to play whichever you think is better, seeing as how "better" is generally pretty subjective when the differences between games can be considered somewhat minute compared to other generation jump modifications many franchises go through.

If you have an argument or a suggestion for helping Smash 4 stand out as a brand new iteration of the franchise, with it's own potential to be held in its own right away from the predecessors, do please complain (constructively). Alas, that is not what you do, and don't try to act like it is. Instead it's nothing but cries and whimpers that this and this mechanic is not identical to Melee, why can't this be like Melee, why don't they have a Melee Mode (wtf), I mean for chemists sake, it's exhausting and downright pretentious.

Have you considered that many of us want exactly the opposite? That while we enjoyed Melee, that we seek something fresh and innovative because we are tired and bored of the same top players skirmish each other year after year, the same top % character match ups, the same exact techniques and old-gen style of Melee?

We appear to take offense to this nonsense for a pretty damn good reason, because we feel like you're being toxic to the general and necessary evolution of the Smash formula. A lot of us want something new and different, not more of the very old and same, no matter how well Melee's mechanics lended itself to its competitive following.

If you like Melee, play Melee, but please, try to keep quiet about a game you really have no bone in whether it succeeds or not simply because you've already decided Melee is still the best.

I've made no posts saying that crying about mechanics not being identical to Melee, but I've made posts arguing that they are worse than their Melee alternatives. I've posted arguing against a Melee mode today. What the hell are you talking about?

What makes you think we're so different? We seek something fresh and innovative to. Again, we seek improvements, like I said in the post you're quoting. Damn, I'm toxic for wanting a game to cater to my wants? Are the posters who want <character> in the game toxic too? Can I call you toxic being you don't care whether or not a change is good or not, just that it happens? I'm pretty sure being fine with devolution is being toxic toward the "necessary evolution" of the Smash formula.

Don't we all want a good game? I thought I made clear that what most competitive players seek is improvement. I don't know why you even quoted my post if you aren't even going to bother to read it. Of course I can keep playing Melee, but I'm a Smash Bros fan, why wouldn't I want a game that outclasses the rest of the series? Melee is the best game because it's better than 64 and Brawl. That doesn't mean another Smash game will not outclass it. It just hasn't happened yet.

What the hell is even up with this post? Serious strawmans out the ass. You're normally better than this man.

 

[Venks]

If the point of this thread is to hopefully make an impact on Smash 4's development then that has come to an end. The 3DS version of the game has finished development and the Wii U version will soon follow suit. The two games will play the same so if the 3DS version has high landing lag(which it doesn't IMO) then so will the Wii U version.

I like Smash 4. I've played it more than almost anyone in the world outside Nintendo and had an incredible time doing so. I like its balance between offensive and defensive play.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No it's not. The "Smash isn't a fighting game" BS died out years ago. It might still flop around among a small minority, but in general when your game is at EVO 2 years in a row and pulls in the most viewers the event has ever seen, it tends to quiet that minority.

We DO veer away from the traditional fighting game format in that unlike other fighting franchises we refuse to move on to the newer game like they do, which is what the person your quoting is saying. And he's absolutely correct.

So either move from Melee to Brawl and get criticized for playing a game that many players deem competitively inferior, or continue playing the solid competitive game and get ridiculed because we are playing an older game (Funny considering that many of the games like Street Fighter II, 3rd Strike and MvC1 & 2 are just as old, if not older)?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

**** that noise, everyone should play what game they want.

 

[SmashChu]

It's actually quiet the opposite. We are hated because we veer away from the traditional format of fighting games. The fact that people claim that smash isn't a fighting game, though it clearly is, is a testament that you are stating the inverse.

No. You're hated because the way you behave. SRK got ****ing tired of Smashboards trying to say "Oh, we are a fighting game, love us." and then going "It's all Brawl's fault. Everything is it's fault. But Melee is good."

You're a fool if you think it's just because the FGC has some secret jealousy or something. Yes, there are some people who try to argue that Smash isn't a fighting game (and why does it matter). But a big part is how the community behaves. The Smash community acts childish.

EDIT: Warning infractions means someones feelings got hurt. Smashboards has gone to ****.

 

[SweatshirtSwordsman.]

So either move from Melee to Brawl and get criticized for playing a game that many players deem competitively inferior, or continue playing the solid competitive game and get ridiculed because we are playing an older game (Funny considering that many of the games like Street Fighter II, 3rd Strike and MvC1 & 2 are just as old, if not older)?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

**** that noise, everyone should play what game they want.

That is the exact mindset we need to have as a community, and as individuals. We'll do what we want and we don't care what others say.

No. You're hated because the way you behave. SRK got ****ing tired of Smashboards trying to say "Oh, we are a fighting game, love us." and then going "It's all Brawl's fault. Everything is it's fault. But Melee is good."

You're a fool if you think it's just because the FGC has some secret jealousy or something. Yes, there are some people who try to argue that Smash isn't a fighting game (and why does it matter). But a big part is how the community behaves. The Smash community acts childish.[/

No. You're hated because the way you behave. SRK got ****ing tired of Smashboards trying to say "Oh, we are a fighting game, love us." and then going "It's all Brawl's fault. Everything is it's fault. But Melee is good."

You're a fool if you think it's just because the FGC has some secret jealousy or something. Yes, there are some people who try to argue that Smash isn't a fighting game (and why does it matter). But a big part is how the community behaves. The Smash community acts childish.

On the dot. I think its because of Smash Bros. target audience. I don't care how old anyone is (Well, I can't judge I'm not 18...) Its the way that people behave that I judge them upon.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

The fact that this thread is still going has made me lose even more hope for this forum.

 

[pizzapie7]

The fact that this thread is still going has made me lose even more hope for this forum.

Feel free to leave. You've yet to contribute anything of note other than incredibly long rants at people who have different opinions than you and you surely won't be missed.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Feel free to leave. You've yet to contribute anything of note other than incredibly long rants at people who have different opinions than you and you surely won't be missed.

Oh what and these threads don't contain long posts with different opinions?
I can't voice mine by saying these arguments are stupid and have no merit?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

So either move from Melee to Brawl and get criticized for playing a game that many players deem competitively inferior, or continue playing the solid competitive game and get ridiculed because we are playing an older game (Funny considering that many of the games like Street Fighter II, 3rd Strike and MvC1 & 2 are just as old, if not older)?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

**** that noise, everyone should play what game they want.

I agree with playing what you want, but the problem is the kind of immaturity that is shown in trying to denounce and falter the competitive potential of Smash 4 before it even releases. No one is even playing Smash 4 regularly yet nor can anyone just play it.

It's also quite worth noting that the Smash community is indeed subject to a low maturity average due to the somewhat low age common denominator. Very many issues that crop up on the tournament platform for smash tend to be related to extreme immaturity (heckling at events causing armada rage to be recent).

 

[Venks]

The fact that this thread is still going has made me lose even more hope for this forum.

The trick is to make your own constructive threads and only discuss the game with people who are being constructive. Ignore everyone else and you'll have a very good time. There are some real quality posters here. It's just a lot easier to make a thread where everyone complains then it is to make a thread where people agree with each other. If everyone agrees then the thread doesn't get many replies after the initial discussion and slowly makes its way off the front page.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No. You're hated because the way you behave. SRK got ****ing tired of Smashboards trying to say "Oh, we are a fighting game, love us." and then going "It's all Brawl's fault. Everything is it's fault. But Melee is good."

You're a fool if you think it's just because the FGC has some secret jealousy or something. Yes, there are some people who try to argue that Smash isn't a fighting game (and why does it matter). But a big part is how the community behaves. The Smash community acts childish.

First of all, I'm glad you are addressing the smash community as a whole instead of targeting a specific sanction in the community.

Second, there are always assholes or jerking people in every community; no one is exempt for it, but I feel that you can't lay blame of the segregation of the community by a select few, blame those who lack the skills to think critically, blame the people who take words out of context and extrapolate them into feuds, blame the trendsetters who cling on to the words of the few and take it to an extreme to make themselves seem superior, blame the assholes. Not yourself.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

The fact that this thread is still going has made me lose even more hope for this forum.

What are you talking about? Any real insults or rude remarks have died down pages ago. This is simply honest debate now. If anything you should have restored hope.

 

[pizzapie7]

Oh what and these threads don't contain long posts with different opinions?
I can't voice mine by saying these arguments are stupid and have no merit?

Constructive posts conducive to argument and debate is one thing. All you do is ***** and moan about how awful those wretched dirty whores known as Melee players are ruining your browsing experience by wanting a fun game.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Oh what and these threads don't contain long posts with different opinions?
I can't voice mine by saying these arguments are stupid and have no merit?

Dude.

No one said that.

If there is something on your mind, say it, because you are just defeating yourself if you think like that.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Constructive posts conducive to argument and debate is one thing. All you do is ***** and moan about how awful those wretched dirty *****s known as Melee players are ruining your browsing experience by wanting a fun game.

Brawl was a fun game.
It was meant to be a fun game.

You all want Melee 2.0

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Brawl was a fun game.
It was meant to be a fun game.

You all want Melee 2.0

Stop.

 

[Cassio]

From an unbiased design perspective, Brawl was not intended for competitive play. Mechanics were even added to hinder it. This isn't Brawl vs Melee, because Smash as a series isn't designed for typical fighter comp. Flawless balance and even playing fields are not the priority, it's just in Brawl that was even less so. Still doesn't make it a bad game, but don't point to the minority inside a minority and then say that Brawl was a competitive success. It wasn't.

The hope this time around is that the Devs will nurture comp instead of ignore it as they did for both Brawl and Melee. If it comes true, we can expect for Smash 4 to blow anything Brawl and Melee did combined clean out of the water.

And do you know what I find asinine? Comparing fighting games to card games as a reason for why luck should be a deciding factor in Smash.

Once again, youre incorrect and presumptuous. Is this grounded on anything besides the opinion of others?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Brawl was a fun game.
It was meant to be a fun game.

You all want Melee 2.0

That is an incredibly common misconception, but now that you mention it, I do want Melee 2.0.

I want individual Break the Targets

I want Race to the Finish

I want some the great stages like Peach's Castle and Fourside

I want that interface back

I want the Barrel, Parosol and Red Shell item back.

So I guess you can say I want Melee 2.0

lol

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

That is an incredibly common misconception, but now that you mention it, I do want Melee 2.0.

I want individual Break the Targets

I want Race to the Finish

I want some the great stages like Peach's Castle and Fourside

I want that interface back

I want the Barrel, Parosol and Red Shell item back.

So I guess you can say I want Melee 2.0

lol

Thank you for giving me a reason other than "better gameplay."
Very refreshing.

 

[pizzapie7]

Brawl was a fun game.
It was meant to be a fun game.

You all want Melee 2.0

Guess what, kiddo. Fun is subjective.

 

[The Slayer]

Hey, it's cool if this game is competitively interesting. And what the OP is a reasonable concern. To brush it off as "it'll be fixed later" is not an ideal thing to consider. Because if something like this is still in the final build, it could probably spell the same thing for other problems that people had listed concerns for it as well. Clearly, this Smash Bros is not perfect and will not be so when it comes out. However, it may do well with its current strengths. Otherwise, I'll just play it for what it is and not get too worked up on the competitive side of it like Brawl. It's just not worth of pressure to go through again.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Thank you for giving me a reason other than "better gameplay."
Very refreshing.

I'm glad you can see things from a different perspective, but what's wrong with wanting better gameplay? Everything that is enjoyable about the game encompasses the engine as a whole.

Having a solid engine just makes these things all the more enjoyable for everyone. That's the dream, man.

 

[JV5Chris]

It was disheartening to position well and attempt to follow-up on a combo only to come away with doing negligible damage to their shield and being punished; at times I felt like there was nothing I could do to break through their defense. Part of this is due to me not being good enough at the game, but part is also due to the strength of shields and airdodges.

It's just all around difficult to apply successful shield pressure with that Brawl power-shield in mind. I would agree that they took it too far, at least for my tastes.

Ultimately, I'm perfectly happy with a game where defense is a good option - so long as those defensive options aren't really frustrating to play against, don't nullify offensive options and don't limit the choices and options of the player. Excessively defensive play needs to be punishable just as excessively offensive play needs to be punishable. An ideal playstyle should maintain a healthy balance of both offensive strategies and defensive strategies.

Spot on.

I don't believe Smash 4 will have the same shield issues, but the increased presence of shield dropping is definitely going to factor into the gameplay. More out of shield attacks (or almost OoS) is not exactly a good thing, but if they keep it in check it, this shield does lend itself to some offensive options not present in Brawl. I just would rather not see something nasty like an OoS Peach down-smash come as a result.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

If the point of this thread is to hopefully make an impact on Smash 4's development then that has come to an end. The 3DS version of the game has finished development and the Wii U version will soon follow suit. The two games will play the same so if the 3DS version has high landing lag(which it doesn't IMO) then so will the Wii U version.

I like Smash 4. I've played it more than almost anyone in the world outside Nintendo and had an incredible time doing so. I like its balance between offensive and defensive play.

The development if the 3ds game is still ongoing, you were reading a mistranslation

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It's just all around difficult to apply successful shield pressure with that Brawl power-shield in mind. I would agree that they took it too far, at least for my tastes.


Spot on.

I don't believe Smash 4 will have the same shield issues, but the increased presence of shield dropping is definitely going to factor into the gameplay. More OoS attacks is not exactly a good thing, but if they keep it in check it, this shield does lend itself to some offensive options not present in Brawl. I just would rather not see something nasty like an OoS Peach down-smash come as a result.

Ugh. 60 damage just like that.

But, what if you Down Smash their shield first, causing a shield break (assuming there is adequate shield stun)?

 

[JV5Chris]

Ugh. 60 damage just like that.

But, what if you Down Smash their shield first, causing a shield break (assuming there is adequate shield stun)?

Scary thought isn't it?

You could attempt breaking the shield with a heavier attack, but that's a big risk right there. You'd have to have tons of confidence the shield would actually break too.

 

[S_B]

1. The game hasn't been released and is still being balanced. The shield will probably be adjusted.

2. The Tekken team is balancing this, not Sakurai, who couldn't balance his way out of a wet paper bag.

3. This is the first ever SSB game that will more than likely see post-release balance patches. They've patched Animal Crossing a number of times, FFS. I'm sure SSB4 will see patches as well.

4. They actually care about making the game competitive this time around. Any competitive capability in previous games was more than likely dumb luck (when ~5% of the roster is tournament viable, it speaks for itself, really).

5. Even if nothing was changed, people will figure out a way around it. They always do.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Scary thought isn't it?

You could attempt breaking the shield with a heavier attack, but that's a big risk right there. You'd have to have tons of confidence the shield would actually break too.

Super Smash Bros. Chicken for Wii U / 3DS.

 

[Senario]

2. The Tekken team is balancing this, not Sakurai, who couldn't balance his way out of a wet paper bag.

4. They actually care about making the game competitive this time around. Any competitive capability in previous games was more than likely dumb luck (when ~5% of the roster is tournament viable, it speaks for itself, really).

2. Lol I shouldn't have laughed but I did. Thanks Sakurai.

4. Felt I had to address this for melee. For characters I consider competitively viable we will include mid tier due to stand out players like HugS. And a few others who have recently shown that other characters can be good too.

25 characters in Melee. 26 if you count transformations
Marth, Captain Falcon, Falco, Fox, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Peach, Sheik, All popular.

Less popular but arguably still viable: Ganondorf, Samus, Doc Mario
A lot less popular but definitely not absolute trash imo: Yoshi, Pikachu.

If you count only the popular picks: 8/26. 30% of the cast ish.
If you count mid tier picks: 42%, if you count Yoshi and pikachu that is half of the cast.

Compare to Blazblue Chronophantasma release on console.
26 characters total.
Viable popular: Jin, Hazama, Taokaka, Litchi, Kokonoe, Valkenhayn, Hakumen, Rachel 8/26
Viable less popular this time around: Ragna(arguable), possibly Kagura. total 10/26
Rest of the cast isn't shown to be great in a lot of cases though you get a good enough player and anything can happen.
The amount of viable characters at least in melee is close enough to other fighting games where 1v1 is the way you play. This excludes marvel and skullgirls obviously. And street fighter 4 ultra feels like an anomaly to me since it combines the balance of several street fighter games into one.

Balance is not at all uncharacteristic of fighting games. That is just how it goes.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I've made no posts saying that crying about mechanics not being identical to Melee, but I've made posts arguing that they are worse than their Melee alternatives. I've posted arguing against a Melee mode today. What the hell are you talking about?

What makes you think we're so different? We seek something fresh and innovative to. Again, we seek improvements, like I said in the post you're quoting. Damn, I'm toxic for wanting a game to cater to my wants? Are the posters who want <character> in the game toxic too? Can I call you toxic being you don't care whether or not a change is good or not, just that it happens? I'm pretty sure being fine with devolution is being toxic toward the "necessary evolution" of the Smash formula.

Don't we all want a good game? I thought I made clear that what most competitive players seek is improvement. I don't know why you even quoted my post if you aren't even going to bother to read it. Of course I can keep playing Melee, but I'm a Smash Bros fan, why wouldn't I want a game that outclasses the rest of the series? Melee is the best game because it's better than 64 and Brawl. That doesn't mean another Smash game will not outclass it. It just hasn't happened yet.

What the hell is even up with this post? Serious strawmans out the ***. You're normally better than this man.

It's important to note that when I say "you" I'm not necessarily attacking you specifically, but everyone my post describes. It's just much easier to say although easier to misinterpret.

I think I'm just tired of repeating myself. As you see the same stuff roll out of the mouths of, literally, uninformed children who are jumping to conclusions and are incapable of forming educated and studied opinions of their own, it begins to feel worthless actually putting effort in to painstakingly logically worded posts when they are inevitably brushed aside immediately because TLDR, and continue to parrot nonsense simply derived off of the words of other more vocal entities.

If you are a reasonable person, I'm sure you can begin to understand why people want a new game, and to be blunt, want Melee to "die". Not as a weak appendage to the franchise, but for the good of the franchise. It's totally subjective what you enjoy, but it's absolutely true that many of us are tired of melee.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

1. The game hasn't been released and is still being balanced. The shield will probably be adjusted.

2. The Tekken team is balancing this, not Sakurai, who couldn't balance his way out of a wet paper bag.

3. This is the first ever SSB game that will more than likely see post-release balance patches. They've patched Animal Crossing a number of times, FFS. I'm sure SSB4 will see patches as well.

1) And the chances it will be adjusted are all the higher if people voice their concerns, so long as it's done in a constructive manner (which I must say has been fairly consistent for once in this thread. Good on those of you not bitterly bickering at each other like most of these sorts of threads turn into).

2) Ironically, Brawl was the first time Sakurai actually turned to a balancing team for help and we ended up with Meta Knight. Not saying Melee and 64 are balanced. Just an interesting tidbit.

3) I'm honestly a bit wary of this (assuming it does actually happen). How will Nintendo/Sora respond to feedback on a fighting game? With Mario Kart and Pokemon they were just patching out obvious glitches and obnoxious exploits, but balance patches are a bit different then that. And just how many patches will we get, if any? Time will tell...

In regards to the main subject, I am really quite curious at how shields will end up. If they're going to remain fast to the point where heavy hitters' jabs get punished (looking back at the GF did Bowser get grabbed MID JAB?!) I figure they need to buff shield damage ASAP. Seeing shields noticeably diminish when Bowser FSmashes is awesome, but he's gonna get punished for that anyways unless he has some way to dent a shield beforehand and the jabs and tilts weren't really doing that. Not saying heavy guys should eat shields for breakfast, but if they're gonna get punished for spacing FTilts I feel the defender should at least feel a little pressure via weakened shield. Does that make sense?