After the SDCC tournament yesterday... I'm having doubts Smash 4 will be a good competitive game.

[Cactusblah]

Another thing to note about Brawl's defensive play is that most attacks in Brawl literally do no damage to a shield. The only reason the shield shrinks from standard attacks is because of the natural decay from holding it out. Jab combos? 0 damage to shield. Mach Tornado? 0 damage to shield, but still ridiculous shield pressure because it forces you to hold it out. Only specific moves, like Marth's Shield Breaker, have any shield damage properties at all. If you were to go into every single character's files and add shield damage matching the attack's normal damage, that shield wouldn't hold up for anywhere near as long.

This is probably the entire problem. The shield either needs to take damage, drain faster, recover slower, or a combination of these. Shielding should only be an option to an extent.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The only problem with his statement is that he is not arguing against the fact that a competitive player may know balance better than he does himself. (Though the competitive player in question worded it fairly badly). What he is doing is poisoning the well and questioning the person's credibility rather than their actual point. It makes it a very uphill battle to try and argue against that when people no longer take you seriously because the opponent attacked you for an unrelated point.

I know you aren't saying competitive players have no idea but it was an irresponsible comment made by Sakurai imo. The part after where he said the team was full was fine, but that statement to me just screams of bad argument. It is like saying political scientists have no say in politics because they haven't run for office.

Be honest here though, if a player asked you. "hey can I balance the game better than you if I beat you in smash." I know the Canadian player didn't mean that offensively when he asked this but still...don't you think you would feel insulted even slightly by this?

I know the player who asked this did not mean to ask this in a mean spirited way, but still...don;t you think it's not unreasonable for him to take this like he did? A player saying this to a game developer for the smash series.

Like...damn I do think, on a personal level, competitive players can help balance smash 4 but still, can you see how this can be a bad question to ask int he sense it insult a person completely? Can you see me eye to eye here on this? Because I know you are, from what I have read, a very smart poster.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I'm glad the insults have died down in this thread. Some interesting discussion is going on. I always enjoy seeing everyone's different opinions. I'm not sure how I stand on all of this, other than that I remain cautiously optimistic about the new games.

 

[pizzapie7]

I do not believe I have said anything against Melee, it's mechanics, or anything of the sort. I merely pointed out the actions of certain members in the community that is disrespectful, rude, and detrimental to Brawls competitive scene and how something similar can happen to Smash 4(Brawl 2.0/this isn't going to be a competitive game). But as I have pointed out as well, certain individuals of the Brawl community have done similar things, and should not do the same to Melee's community. Although it is understandable to a degree for both sides it needs to stop. Furthermore, hate towards Smash 4 definitely needs to stop.

I know you said nothing about Melee as a game. I was being facetious for the sake of it. Brawl's competitive scene is floundering for reasons that are far bigger than "Melee stream monsters were rude about MK dittos in Twitch chat." Putting all the blame on Melee's community because of a few irrelevant bad eggs is really unfair.

I totally agree with what you're saying. Brawl was a great competitive game for a very long time and then it dropped dramatically once bashing on it for totally subjective reasons became the cool thing for Melee players to do. I think it's warranted for Brawl players that have to deal with constant trash talk about their game to want to fight back. I'm glad that there are threads like these that directly attack Brawl's value system so I can watch Brawl players tear people apart.

People were trashing Brawl for "subjective reasons" before Brawl's release. A whole lot, actually. Brawl was still competitive, and a bigger game for a long time. Brawl shouldn't be free from criticism. Smash 4 also shouldn't be.

 

[Senario]

Be honest here though, if a player asked you. "hey can I balance the game better than you if I beat you in smash." I know the Canadian player didn't mean that offensively when he asked this but still...don't you think you would feel insulted even slightly by this?

I know the player who asked this did not mean to ask this in a mean spirited way, but still...don;t you think it's not unreasonable for him to take this like he did? A player saying this to a game developer for the smash series.

Like...damn I do think, on a personal level, competitive players can help balance smash 4 but still, can you see how this can be a bad question to ask int he sense it insult a person completely? Can you see me eye to eye here on this?

I've already said in a previous posts that both Sakurai and the Competitive player in question were in the wrong. Competitive player worded his question rudely. Sakurai responded with a poisoning the well offhand comment.

Refer to the previous page.

 

[Veggi]

Lets be honest, brawl dropped off in popularity because the fanbase got bored with it. They didn't like the imbalance nor did they like the extreme defensive play. Blaming it on your so called "melee players" is nothing but a strawman argument. It succeeded for a while then died out on it's own merits, not because of what melee players said.

How can I have a strawman argument from agreeing with someone else and not attributing an argument to another member? What you should have called me out on was making a statement with only anecdotal evidence, which I totally did. However, you also just put up baseless information too so *high five*.

Something that we can argue to a conclusion on is that Brawl isn't a bad competitive game, which has been going really well and serves my argument that Brawl's decrease in popularity isn't due to it being a bad competitive game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can't help but feel this post doesn't understand why smash is competitive or the deep mechanics of how smash works....or is trying to relate it to other fighting games a bit too much. Marth was never stupid good, he was simple to learn hard to master. You cannot balance this game exactly like a standard fighting game because it IS NOT a standard fighting game. It still is competitive though.

Grab teching being nonexistant isn't a big problem in this game as grabs have almost never lead to extremely long combo followups. Not like marvel.

Where have I ever stated Marth is "stupid good"? I stated that he autorapes you in Melee if you don't wavedash out of shield. In general his gameplan has atrocious design and he's always been overloaded. So thus, he's a character that needed to be nerfed.

LOL, grabs don't lead to extremely long combo followups? Are we talking the same games? Grabs in Melee not only are one of the quickest ways to rack up REALLY HUGE DAMAGE from combos and chaingrabs, they lead to KOs. Throws in Melee are probably as a whole BETTER than throws in Marvel vs Capcom 3...unless your name is Magneto or Doom I guess. Grabs in 64 don't combo often but they hit like Smash Attacks. Only in Brawl a lot of the cast got shafted and can't guarantee really huge damage from throws, with some exceptions.

You're also missing the bigger point. Grab teching is necessary to prevent snowballing in ALL fighting games. It kinda doesn't matter in SF2 where you basically die in 2 combos anyway, and similarly in 64 you die in like 3 attacks. So who cares about grab teching in games where a touch kills you? But when you have to actually work for the KO, then the positional advantage you can create from a grab is OBSCENE if there is no reliable grab teching. Imagine SF4 if there was no grab teching. Right, and we want Cammy, Yun, C Viper, and Akuma to be more broken. It's also why Grappler characters tend to get shafted really hard in most respectable fighting games. Untechable throws are unfair to defend against, so thus, grapplers USUALLY have to be bad at getting in safely.

So what does no grab teching to in Smash? As I said, nobody cares about 64, given you die in 3 attacks anyway. In Melee, Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth are the only characters that get grabs in this game competitively, and Jigglypuff is also competitive because she can't be grabbed period. In Brawl as I recall, Metaknight is virtually UNCONTESTED by anyone except Olimar basically. I mean seriously, what do you do when Metaknight wants to grab you aside from HOPE he doesn't read your dodge given he can punish it SAFELY and for good damage?

 

[Turokman5896]

This is probably the entire problem. The shield either needs to take damage, drain faster, recover slower, or a combination of these. Shielding should only be an option to an extent.

Shield breaking seems way more effective this time around. One bowser down b equals a full shield break. Maybe shields are fast because they can be broken quickly as well?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

*picks Marth/Lucina, whose Shield Breaker was buffed in this version of Smash*

Hmm? Somebody mention something about shields being too strong in this game? Didn't notice.

 

[pizzapie7]

that Brawl's decrease in popularity isn't due to it being a bad competitive game.

Are you sure? Can you say that without a doubt that Brawl's incredibly overpowering defensive qualities aren't to blame for Brawl's decrease in popularity? Can you say that a player looking to get into competitive Smash can watch Melee, Brawl, and PM side to side won't see Brawl as a campy mess and prefer one of the other two? Melee's resurgence and new-found exposure only hindered Brawl's growth because Melee is a better competitive game than Brawl.

I think that Brawl's decrease in popularity is exactly because it's not as good of a competitive game as it's predecessor or even it's modded version, and I'd argue that had it existed in a Melee-less vacuum, it wouldn't be fairing any better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've already said in a previous posts that both Sakurai and the Competitive player in question were in the wrong. Competitive player worded his question rudely. Sakurai responded with a poisoning the well offhand comment.

Refer to the previous page.

my b didn't see that.

 

[Senario]

Where have I ever stated Marth is "stupid good"? I stated that he autorapes you in Melee if you don't wavedash out of shield. In general his gameplan has atrocious design and he's always been overloaded. So thus, he's a character that needed to be nerfed.

LOL, grabs don't lead to extremely long combo followups? Are you for real? Are we talking the game games? Grabs in Melee not only are one of the quickest ways to rack up REALLY HUGE DAMAGE from combos and chaingrabs, they lead to KOs. Grabs in 64 don't combo often but they hit like Smash Attacks. Only in Brawl a lot of the cast got shafted and can't guarantee really huge damage from throws, with some exceptions.

You're also missing the bigger point. Grab teching is necessary to prevent snowballing in ALL fighting games. It kinda doesn't matter in SF2 where you basically die in 2 combos anyway, and similarly in 64 you die in like 3 attacks. So who cares about grab teching in games where a touch kills you? But when you have to actually work for the KO, then the positional advantage you can create from a grab is OBSCENE if there is no reliable grab teching. Imagine SF4 if there was no grab teching. Right, and we want Cammy, Yun, C Viper, and Akuma to be more broken. It's also why Grappler characters tend to get shafted really hard in most respectable fighting games. Untechable throws are unfair to defend against, so thus, grapplers USUALLY have to be bad at getting in safely.

So what does no grab teching to in Smash? As I said, nobody cares about 64, given you die in 3 attacks anyway. In Melee, Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth are the only characters that get grabs in this game competitively, and Jigglypuff is also competitive because she can't be grabbed period. In Brawl as I recall, Metaknight is virtually UNCONTESTED by anyone except Olimar basically. I mean seriously, what do you do when Metaknight wants to grab you aside from HOPE he doesn't read your dodge given he can punish it SAFELY and for good damage?

Now I'm sure you don't get the game. And I can feel the Sodium levels from the comment.

Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Marth ok. So fox and falco have grabs that are pretty standard no real chain grabs but there are some combos out of them. Fox up air is one well known one. Marth and Shiek are completely based on reads for their grabs. Marth vs spacies is usually just knowing which way to turn to grab them as they fall due to how fast they do. Shiek is all about chasing where you are going. Jiggs can be grabbed.

I still think you don't know much about smash itself but are probably an avid fan of regular fighting games. In smash every action in melee has a response to be done by the player getting grabbed or hit in the form of DI, you DI and fake out your opponent right and they won't get you. If you get read by your opponent then you will get wrecked. It is much like if you did a reset on a combo in other fighting games by doing an instant TK overhead. They read you and it makes it seem like you can't get out of these combos but you can.

Marth can be contested in a lot of ways in melee through pressure and general good spacing and DI. He is by no means as good as you think he is. Again, he has high payouts early on because he is SIMPLE TO PLAY but at higher levels of play people can out play marth.

I'm not sure how much more I can explain. Honestly, learn the game better I don't think you know enough about smash and explaining to you why you are wrong would take much too long and might be like talking to a brick wall.

@ Veggi A strawman argument is not "baseless information" it is creating an imaginary group or group of people who you then tear down as part of your argument. To say that Melee fans are to blame for brawl's decline is wrong. It failed on it's own merits of being not that interesting to watch. Sure, might be just as competitive to some but in the end it was boring to watch and thus not well suited to the Esports scene. I often see street fighter cited here but it is more of an exception to the rule rather than the rule. And the rule being offensive games are more interesting to watch.

Also, everybody knows that Brawl's scene has been steadily declining as of late. Or at the very least not expanding.

 

[Veggi]

Are you sure? Can you say that without a doubt that Brawl's incredibly overpowering defensive qualities aren't to blame for Brawl's decrease in popularity? Can you say that a player looking to get into competitive Smash can watch Melee, Brawl, and PM side to side won't see Brawl as a campy mess and prefer one of the other two? Melee's resurgence and new-found exposure only hindered Brawl's growth because Melee is a better competitive game than Brawl.

I think that Brawl's decrease in popularity is exactly because it's not as good of a competitive game as it's predecessor or even it's modded version, and I'd argue that had it existed in a Melee-less vacuum, it wouldn't be fairing any better.

I can't. That's why in the post that you quoted, I said exactly what you're asking me to say. However, what I can do is make a great case for it to try and prove you wrong, which is how arguments work.

If Brawl is a campy mess, then why do the best players in the entire world play like this?

These are the APEX grand finals for the last three years:

2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRS7f7zMCo

2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0

2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0

Olimar is arguably the campiest character in the entire game and even when he was competing for best player in the world, there was still constant conflict.

This is why I believe that people have an imaginary perception of what Brawl is based on an incredibly small amount of matches that include things that were heavily nerfed in Smash 4 such as edge camping.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now I'm sure you don't get the game. And I can feel the Sodium ls the comment.

Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Marth ok. So fox and falco have grabs that are pretty standard no real chain grabs but there are some combos out of them. Fox up air is one well known one. Marth and Shiek are completely based on reads for their grabs. Marth vs spacies is usually just knowing which way to turn to grab them as they fall due to how fast they do. Shiek is all about chasing where you are going. Jiggs can be grabbed.

I still think you don't know much about smash itself but are probably an avid fan of regular fighting games. In smash every action in melee has a response to be done by the player getting grabbed or hit in the form of DI, you DI and fake out your opponent right and they won't get you. If you get read by your opponent then you will get wrecked. It is much like if you did a reset on a combo in other fighting games by doing an instant TK overhead. They read you and it makes it seem like you can't get out of these combos but you can.

Marth can be contested in a lot of ways in melee through pressure and general good spacing and DI. He is by no means as good as you think he is. Again, he has high payouts early on because he is SIMPLE TO PLAY but at higher levels of play people can out play marth.

I'm not sure how much more I can explain. Honestly, learn the game better I don't think you know enough about smash and explaining to you why you are wrong would take much too long and might be like talking to a brick wall.

You don't need to "read" people when grabbing people with Sheik or Marth. There's a reason why Mew2King is called the robot. Also Jigglypuff can't be grabbed if she's ahead and wants to time out the match.

Fox definitely has a chaingrab on himself that can lead to a 0-death on FD, and similarly, it doesn't actually require reads. Just trained reflexes. Only Falco looks like he loses out marginally simply because he only has a good Backthrow to work with, but then again...he has the best offense in the game.

Clearly, you also don't read my posts. I'm well aware of both Smash DI and combo DI, the latter of which is one of the better things of the Smash series. Combo DI isn't a get out of jail free card though, and while there are legitimately escapable situations, there are also plenty of completely inescapable ones.

I like that you're telling me that Marth is contestable, which is completely true. There's a reason he's not winning more tournaments. What's infuriating is that you COMPLETELY missed the point where I stated that Marth autorapes you if you don't wavedash out of shield. We're talking completely different things. Marth's design is legitimately one of the worst in the game if you analyze what options the game designers probably intended people to use. Basically if you don't have projectiles or insane run speed or items, Marth is broken casually. That alone warrants nerfs because that's unacceptable for game design standards. Doesn't matter if technically he's not broken competitively because advanced techniques make his spacing imperfect. However specifically, you cannot expect casual players to know to wavedash out of shield. And he ***** you if you don't.

Personally me, I believe you should read posts more carefully, because you're responding to completely unrelated things.

 

[JV5Chris]

THE ENTIRE SERIES IS NOT GOOD COMPETITIVELY.

Probably not the best statement to lead with if you were looking to make a persuasive case here. For that matter neither is the tone that followed.

What's infuriating is that you COMPLETELY missed the point where I stated that Marth autorapes you if you don't wavedash out of shield.

Using language doesn't help people take you seriously either. It's self-defeating.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Probably not the best statement to lead with if you were looking to make a persuasive case here. For that matter neither is the tone that followed.


Using language doesn't help people take you seriously either.

Right, and this discussion is so serious. It's a SPECULATIVE THREAD.

Am I the only one having fun here? I'm stating my opinion knowing full well that a lot of people won't acknowledge it. I only find it mildly annoying if responses are irrelevant.

 

[Veggi]

@ Veggi A strawman argument is not "baseless information" it is creating an imaginary group or group of people who you then tear down as part of your argument. To say that Melee fans are to blame for brawl's decline is wrong. It failed on it's own merits of being not that interesting to watch. Sure, might be just as competitive to some but in the end it was boring to watch and thus not well suited to the Esports scene. I often see street fighter cited here but it is more of an exception to the rule rather than the rule. And the rule being offensive games are more interesting to watch.

I never said a strawman argument was posting baseless information. I actually stated that my statements were not a strawman argument, but they were baseless. Not both of them. A strawman argument would be if I were to tie you to an easy argument that you never made and then attack that argument. Now you're also just displaying baseless information like you and I were before. However, you also hurt your argument by telling me that there was an exception to the rule, which I already knew. If there's an exception to the rule, then that means that the notion that defensive play makes a game boring to watch is flawed. Now you have to tell me why Brawl isn't fun to watch without using examples that I can counter by telling you that Street Fighter is the same thing.

 

[JV5Chris]

Right, and this discussion is so serious. It's a SPECULATIVE THREAD.

Am I the only one having fun here?

I'm sure you are having lots of fun ranting about stuff. I'll leave it at that.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Fair enough. I just think people need to lay off the "This isn't competitive Brawl 2.0 hurrduurrrrr" talk until they have the game itself and some mechanics have been tested in the lab. We can't jump to conclusions based off of what we saw from an early build demo being played by Nintendo PR people.

I haven't said anything about "Brawl 2.0" and what not. Plus, the conclusions I've made are not based on playstyle but based on mechanics visible while they play.

Whenever I see post like this, I'm reminded of the QNA Sakurai held where he was asked "would you want a competitive player to help you design the game" to which he responded "have you ever made a video game?"

While I'm not saying competitive players have no idea how to make a better game, I trust Sakurai and team a lot more than I trust most others to do something like this. I'm sure balance is a consideration, but so are the 100+ other things that go into making a game like this.

I've been working on a fighting game for the last 2 years. Soooo yeah.

Honest question.

Do we know how fast shield can go down after being hit and such? Because I get that shields still don't look as safe but still can be a tad hard to pressure. Even with Brawl's shields that wasn't the only issue, with more shield breaks and what looks like shields take more hits do you think this will be a main problems?

We don't yet. The topic has been brought up but without knowing things like shield recovery rate, shield natural decay, and if some moves have special properties that make them more effective on shield breaking. Its a solid question that we can't derive

"Unless Sakurai makes some changes (fingers are crossed here) from the E3 build that was being played at the San Diego Comic Con... then Smash 4 may end up being another title that the community forces to be competitive but won't actually be a very good game. "
It could be worded a lot better.

I learned a long time ago that when making threads, you have to be more decisive with your wording or nobody pays attention to you. I worded it strongly on purpose to spur conversation and interest, which I accomplished.

 

[Cassio]

@ Senario , @ A2ZOMG is actually correct in at least in how good grabs are throughout the smash series. Between the traditional Rock Paper Scissors of smash (Attack, Shield, Grab) grabbing has been the most powerful mechanic in each game, excepting perhaps spacies shine in melee which isnt exactly healthy either, lol. The bigger point though is shielding has not only not been good in past smash games its been actually pretty bad.

Also before I get criticized for just playing Brawl, I havent played Brawl competitively in about a year, mostly melee. Made it out of pools 1 in KoC4 though which I know probably no one else in this thread could do .

 

[A2ZOMG]

I never said a strawman argument was posting baseless information. I actually stated that my statements were not a strawman argument, but they were baseless. Not both of them. A strawman argument would be if I were to tie you to an easy argument that you never made and then attack that argument. Now you're also just displaying baseless information like you and I were before. However, you also hurt your argument by telling me that there was an exception to the rule, which I already knew. If there's an exception to the rule, then that means that the notion that defensive play makes a game boring to watch is flawed. Now you have to tell me why Brawl isn't fun to watch without using examples that I can counter by telling you that Street Fighter is the same thing.

The real problem with Brawl is the top tiers just do dumb things with hitboxes that shouldn't exist and grab you on the side. Melee also suffers from the same problem, just it's easier to screw up technically.

Street Fighter has some hard designed 2/8 matchups (Dhalsim/Seth vs Grapplers) and then SF4 created vortex characters who autopilot option selects on your wakeup. Otherwise there are far fewer cases of "hitboxes that shouldn't exist" and you can grab tech against standard hit/grab mixup pressure meaning where vortex isn't used, the game is overall less autopilot.

 

[Turokman5896]

I haven't said anything about "Brawl 2.0" and what not. Plus, the conclusions I've made are not based on playstyle but based on mechanics visible while they play.



I've been working on a fighting game for the last 2 years. Soooo yeah.



We don't yet. The topic has been brought up but without knowing things like shield recovery rate, shield natural decay, and if some moves have special properties that make them more effective on shield breaking. Its a solid question that we can't derive



I learned a long time ago that when making threads, you have to be more decisive with your wording or nobody pays attention to you. I worded it strongly on purpose to spur conversation and interest, which I accomplished.

So you tried to start a flame war by saying the game will not be good? I'm out

 

[SamuraiPanda]

So you tried to start a flame war by saying the game will not be good? I'm out

No, I worded my post more definitively than I normally would have. I also used words like "may" and "could" and "doubts" in order to express that this isn't a given that it'll happen.

You're just reading too much into intent and should be more focused on discussion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^ Jesus Christ, I knew this thread couldn't be serious.

I mean really, what else are you going to accomplish with a speculative thread? Hype and drama are basically synonyms.

I don't know yet if I should commend or criticize you SP. I'm thoroughly amused, but I still question whether or not this topic is productive.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

^ Jesus Christ, I knew this thread couldn't be serious.

I mean really, what else are you going to accomplish with a speculative thread? Hype and drama are basically synonyms.

I don't know yet if I should commend or criticize you SP. I'm thoroughly amused, but I still question whether or not this topic is productive.

To be honest, its always a toss up in these sort of threads. I actually think that much of the thread had very productive discussion and great opinions. Then a few people came in naysaying the thread, and complaining that I'm calling it Brawl 2.0 or something. There is still valuable discussion if those people are ignored, however.

What this thread accomplishes is quite simple. Just discussion about a single aspect of an upcoming game that everyone, even the people saying it looks bad, are excited to get their hands on. That's really all I want out of the thread. If it happens to fall on eyes who can pass it onto people that matter, then that would be the best case scenario but nothing I'm losing sleep over.

 

[Cassio]

No need to be so harsh guys.

Panda I think what peeps are trying to say has more to do with context since you mightve not been around. Certain members of the smash community have been trying as hard as they can to criticize the game with any poor argument or criticism they can come up with for the sole purpose of putting down the game. I know you're being genuine, but anything that seems to come with a hard tone sets off alarms for most peeps who have seen others try to do this.

Getting back to the main topic, I just feel like dash shielding or shielding as an approach was such a good option in Brawl compared to shieldings defensive uses, I think that something very drastic would have to change in the shielding mechanics for it to lead to stronger defensive play.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

To be honest, its always a toss up in these sort of threads. I actually think that much of the thread had very productive discussion and great opinions. Then a few people came in naysaying the thread, and complaining that I'm calling it Brawl 2.0 or something. There is still valuable discussion if those people are ignored, however.

What this thread accomplishes is quite simple. Just discussion about a single aspect of an upcoming game that everyone, even the people saying it looks bad, are excited to get their hands on. That's really all I want out of the thread. If it happens to fall on eyes who can pass it onto people that matter, then that would be the best case scenario but nothing I'm losing sleep over.

Gotta agree with him here.

this thread is not "OMG Melee vs Brawl" more so what the mechanics of the new game are. This thread is not a flame war, more so just discussion of what we have seen.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

You spurred some interest alright, maybe a bit too much for some people's own good, but this thread accomplished what it intended to achieve.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

No need to be so harsh guys.

Panda I think what peeps are trying to say has more to do with context since you mightve not been around. Certain members of the smash community have been trying as hard as they can to criticize the game with any poor argument or criticism they can come up with for the sole purpose of putting down the game. I know you're being genuine, but anything that seems to come with a hard tone sets off alarms for most peeps who have seen others try to do this.

Getting back to the main topic, I just feel like dash shielding or shielding as an approach was such a good option in Brawl compared to shieldings defensive uses, I think that something very drastic would have to change in the shielding mechanics for it to lead to stronger defensive play.

That would explain a few things. Admittedly, I only pop onto SWF occasionally and I don't spend time reading much so I've definitely missed a few things.

Your point of dash shielding as an approach to use the defensive options offensively may hold water when the game is actually released. I don't agree that it was a great option in Brawl, however. I think it was a great option for some characters or in some matchups, but wasn't an overarching strategy someone could use to win. I DO think though that it will be more viable in Smash 4 with shield dropping as fast as it is. How viable though is a big question mark at the moment though.

I do think that shield breaking/recovery/etc, along with more viably using defensive options offensively, are two strong counterpoints to my initial argument. Ones we should be keeping our eyes on when the game is released since they are difficult to answer with our current level of knowledge of the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Getting back to the main topic, I just feel like dash shielding or shielding as an approach was such a good option in Brawl compared to shieldings defensive uses, I think that something very drastic would have to change in the shielding mechanics for it to lead to stronger defensive play.

Also, aside from general mechanics, it's worth noting that when players actually get good at fighting games, top level play overall becomes more defensive, because consistency is key competitively. Most of the exceptions to that involve skill gaps, like Mango who has spacing that is literally impossible and can't be replicated competitively due to his reaction time.

More of the problem with Smash aside from REALLY obviously stupid things like ledgestalling, no grab teching, and airdodge hitstun timers is just...really hilariously bad character balance honestly lol. Though no grab teching makes bad character balance ESPECIALLY obvious.

Which is why I believe Namco deserves respect when I hear Marth has been nerfed, tether grabs aren't terribad, and other things.

 

[pizzapie7]

I can't. That's why in the post that you quoted, I said exactly what you're asking me to say. However, what I can do is make a great case for it to try and prove you wrong, which is how arguments work.

If Brawl is a campy mess, then why do the best players in the entire world play like this?

These are the APEX grand finals for the last three years:

2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRS7f7zMCo

2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0

2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0

Olimar is arguably the campiest character in the entire game and even when he was competing for best player in the world, there was still constant conflict.

This is why I believe that people have an imaginary perception of what Brawl is based on an incredibly small amount of matches that include things that were heavily nerfed in Smash 4 such as edge camping.

I'm not going to sit through hours of gameplay for you. Here's something noticeable from the very first video. I only watched until the first stock was taken, but it shows everything that I dislike about the game and why many of the complaints people have about it are completely valid. MK vs MK on Battlefield. After jumping around throwing out hitboxes and in general just looking menacing at each other for no real purpose for 10 seconds, neutral colored MK glides through dark MK into a full forward tilt auto combo into a forward air into... nothing. He essentially worked 12 seconds for chip damage. Dark MK then misses a down tilt and neutral MK punishes with a tornado which led to nothing again. Following more neutral game, dark MK hits a falling forward air, correctly reads neutral MK's air dodge and punishes with a short hop nair, and then misses the follow up. All the time between 1:28-1:36, where both players are just rolling and shielding and down tilting, may as well have been camping. The game consists of waiting out in neutral for extended periods of time, hitting/getting hit for marginal percent, and resetting the game back into neutral, until someone is at kill percent, at which case the other person begins fishing for kill moves. I don't have to watch more. I don't want to watch more. I understand the importance of footsies in Brawl, I understand how others may find the defensive game enjoyable. Hell, I found it enjoyable for the first few years of it's existence. But it doesn't entice me as a player to want to go out and do it.

Compare that to http://youtu.be/SOnYtXIyfW4?t=8m55s Similar situation, top level players at APEX 2014 playing on Battlefield with the best characters in the game.
Following Falco teching Fox's shine, Falco sh down airs Fox, which is immediately punished with a second shine leading into a tech chase for 50% with Falco finally escaping (more like Fox just ending it) but still in an unsafe position, a position where he's punished again which leads to a loss of stock. In the amount of time where neutral MK landed two hits, Falco is already dead. Brawl's offensive game stinks, and it doesn't make defensive gameplay enjoyable to watch either. That is why Brawl has a waning popularity. That is why people wrongly believe Brawl is an uncompetitive game. That is why people rightly believe that it is a worse competitive game than it's predecessor.

This is easily rectifiable in Smash 4 as long as offense is actually rewarding and defense doesn't dominate.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wish the best character in Brawl was Lucario, Lucario is always fun to watch.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Which is why I believe Namco deserves respect when I hear Marth has been nerfed, tether grabs aren't terribad, and other things.

Ehhhh I always felt Marth was probably the best balance point in Brawl. Like, if you were to balance the game so every character in the game were as strong as Marth then you would have a very entertaining game. I'd say the same for Melee but I don't really have enough knowledge of Melee to pretend to know that.

 

[kataridragon]

My two cents from what I skimmed through:

Brawl can be a competitive game. It is just horribly balanced. It's one of the most unbalanced fighting games I have ever played. This is typically the worst thing that can happen to a fighting game. Still competitive just shallow. Bad design choices.

Melee much better in terms of balance. Some nice tech. Easily the crowd favorite. Broken in the right ways. Very MvC2 like in this regard.

Smash 64 has good balance. Game is kinda odd compared to its predecessors just because the system itself has some flaws that were ironed out in future games. Still enjoyable.

This game is not Brawl 2.0. It's SSB4. We haven't even gotten are hands on it yet. We don't know what it will really be like on a competitive scale. Balance will probably be this games biggest obstacle. Hopefully certain design choices from brawl will be gone. Hopefully it will eclipse melee.

 

[pizzapie7]

I wish the best character in Brawl was Lucario, Lucario is always fun to watch.

I know right. Too bad there's always gonna be another character on the screen that is probably not fun to watch

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

.[/quote]

Be honest here though, if a player asked you. "hey can I balance the game better than you if I beat you in smash." I know the Canadian player didn't mean that offensively when he asked this but still...don't you think you would feel insulted even slightly by this?

I know the player who asked this did not mean to ask this in a mean spirited way, but still...don;t you think it's not unreasonable for him to take this like he did? A player saying this to a game developer for the smash series.

Like...damn I do think, on a personal level, competitive players can help balance smash 4 but still, can you see how this can be a bad question to ask int he sense it insult a person completely? Can you see me eye to eye here on this? Because I know you are, from what I have read, a very smart poster.

I think this is a really strange and ignorant comment from sakurai though. Street Fighter and tekken (as well as most other major fighters) not only hire retired pros to help them make their games (combofiend) they also often have active pros participate in private tests to check for balance....

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I think this is a really strange and ignorant comment from sakurai though. Street Fighter and tekken (as well as most other major fighters) not only hire retired pros to help them make their games (combofiend) they also often have active pros participate in private tests to check for balance....

Didn't someone from CT go to the Japanese Namco headquarters? I swear I saw a picture to that effect on Reddit...

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Didn't someone from CT go to the Japanese Namco headquarters? I swear I saw a picture to that effect on Reddit...

I saw that too. If he was really going there for balance checks that just makes Sakurai's statement even stranger

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ehhhh I always felt Marth was probably the best balance point in Brawl. Like, if you were to balance the game so every character in the game were as strong as Marth then you would have a very entertaining game. I'd say the same for Melee but I don't really have enough knowledge of Melee to pretend to know that.

Marth is fair in Brawl almost by accident. He was still overloaded but basically got nerfed really hard by system changes. Specifically, shielding not being nearly as terribad not to mention Marth's recovery remained pretty easily edgeguarded in spite of physics changes.

To be real though, Marth shouldn't have a 5 frameish F-air that hits crouching characters while rising AND one of the better walkspeeds and standing grab ranges simultaneously in addition to throws that actually have consistent followups even at high percents. And a legitimate reversal? Yeah...Marth is like...generically overloaded. Which is boring.

Realistically the best balance point in Melee is Captain Falcon. Falcon is able to outplay and beat anyone except Falco basically, but he never can really autopilot. If the entire cast was about as good as Captain Falcon in Melee, that would be a reasonable game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know right. Too bad there's always gonna be another character on the screen that is probably not fun to watch

Weird thing I like, I like playing againstr Falco/Snake/Olimar.They play campy as hell something, but I like playing against them. I really do in Brawl.

D3/MK/Ice Climbers **** those guys though, lol.