Aerial Canceling

[g-regulate]

Many of you have realized that l-canceling has been taken out of the game. However, many aerial moves still cancel, when performed with the right timing. In melee, you could simply press L while landing at any point of an aerial, and you would recover in half the time as normal. It is not like this in brawl, as many moves are quite laggy if you land while doing them. When you land certain aerials at the right point in the animation, certain ones WILL cancel, opening up new options for strategy to get moves out faster.

Not all moves have these "secret" cancels, or maybe they do, but the time you must cancel is contrary to the usefulness of the move. Certain moves seem to just cancel on their own, because they are really fast and good. I find most characters BAIRS to be extremely fast and cancel-able.

Try using Sonic or Wolf in a simple combo. Short hop NAIR an opponent, and try to UTILT as soon as you land. If you do it correctly it should cancel and the UTILT should come out fast. Other cancels can be harder. Landing on the ground with Sonic's UAIR often produces a laggy get-up, making the move slow. However, if you short hop, and start the UAIR immediately, you will land on the ground after doing the move, without the lag. This opens up for multiple UAIR combos.

Another example I'll use is Snake's NAIR. It's a long, slow series of 4 powerful kicks, with lots of lag when you land with it. If you land the move RIGHT after the last kick, the move will cancel immediately, opening up for an ftilt or jab combo, or even a grab.

I think learning the way everyones aerials cancel will be a huge part of the competitive game, and it will only advance over time as people get better at it. Learning how to "Cancel" will be just as important as learning how to l-cancel in melee. Doing it may not require as much finger work as melee, but will still require skill to pull off nonetheless.

 

[-Aether]

G-regulate has spoken. Sticky plz.
/end sarcasm

Yeah, I agree. If aerials are to become key in combos/approaches, autocanceling will be extremely important. The best example I can give is Ganondorf's D-air. If you use is as soon as you shorthop (within like, 2-3 frames of leaving the ground) you can land as the animation is ending and experience no lag. It's basically like you L-canceled it.

 

[g-regulate]

Yes @ Aether, the beauty is that moves have much, much more hit-lag on them, so you can hit people, wait for the move to complete, and still be able to combo into something else.

In melee, if your opponent had low %, they basically recover instantly from any move that isn't considerably strong.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Whoa, specific move canceling sounds crazy. Brawl just keeps exposing these new depths and that's a good thing. g-reg, are you still testing this out?

 

[-Aether]

The tournament scene will most certainly be alive, and things like this are going to facilitate longevity in the SSBB community. These kind of things that will put a gap between the dedicated and the casuals.

Speaking of the community, I need to start participating in more MD/Northern VA tournaments. I've been to a few in Baltimore (noticably pounds at UMBC) but driving is a *****.

Who's ready for WiFi? Hehe.

 

[OrlanduEX]

This makes it a bit more difficult to learn your character methinks. In Melee, once you learned to l-cancel, you were set, regardless of the character you used, but in Brawl, you have to learn exactly when to land during each aerial to get the cancel.

 

[ShortFuse]

Yeah, that's what the whole Auto L-Cancelling talk was. Drillkick can go right into dSmash, uTilt, Grab or Shine. Marth's fAir can go right into fSmash or grab. Ike's nAir can go right into Jab.
It's just like L-Cancelling in Melee, only you don't have to press L. It does it "automatically" (as in, not needed anymore)

I heavily abuse the drill kick with Fox. Shorthop drill kick backwards to land behind enemy into grab, or drill dSmash, really powerful.

I've had the game for 4 weeks now, and so have others, and we have caught on to things like this. What is also new is the fact you can dash immediately after landing (with a low lag attack or no attack), so with Fox I can nAir, into dash, uSmash. It's an inescapable combo if the nAir hits (and you're low %)

 

[VirtualVoid]

Umm, there aren't specifc cancel times for specific moves in brawl. Some moves barely have lag when you land while doing them and some moves that usually have lag when landing during the move can have the lag removed by completing the move before the shorthop (or a normal jump) ends.

 

[SynikaL]

Auto-Cancels existed in Melee. They're just more emphasized now because of the lack of L-Cancel. Snake's Nair is sui generis -- not every aerial has a frame specific/just frame lag cancel. There's probably others like it, but not many for sure (the multi-attack nature of the move is a dead giveaway for properties like that).

Some aerials lag-cancel naturally, something that has been known for some time. Every character has at least a few low/no-lag aerials.

But, yeah, this is nothing to get excited about.

-Kimosabae

 

[sesshomaru]

objection! kinda. clarify this a little for me, is it actually cancelling as in no lag time from the move OR the landing animation, or are u finishing the move before you land (maybe a few frames) and the landing animation just has very little lag?

i thought for the longest time any move could be JC from your shield but it turned out to be the shield drop animation had very little lag making this guy think he WAS jc into his moves, when he was just letting go and smashing.

 

[g-regulate]

Synikal you always post in such a matter-of-fact manner, i can never tell if you are agreeing with someone or arguing against them. You are pretty much an ***-hole haha <3.

and id say this is something to get excited about, because the people who know how to do it correctly will win in tournament, and the people who don't will be left behind.

 

[Kazooka]

I never used that anyway.

 

[g-regulate]

and regardless of how the mechanics work, bottom line is theres a way to be FASTER in this game, an actual strategy to get attacks out quicker and make the game more competitive. thats the point im trying to make here.

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

G-regulate thanks for the post even though i don't got the game yet i will be keeping this on my mind as one of the big things to test and use if it is efficient ! thanks man! great post!

 

[Kashakunaki]

Umm, there aren't specifc cancel times for specific moves in brawl. Some moves barely have lag when you land while doing them and some moves that usually have lag when landing during the move can have the lag removed by completing the move before the shorthop (or a normal jump) ends.

I agree with Virtual.

This whole "auto-cancel" thing is ridiculous. The moves have either short landing lag or the attack ends before you hit the ground. It doesn't cancel anything. Why you force yourself to believe this is a little ridiculous.

 

[sesshomaru]

yes it is a good find, u did get a tad jumped for it lol. answer me this real quick cuz this kinda pertains to auto cancels. do u find urself trading off blows alot in brawl? EX: match starts, ur both at 0, u SH nair ur oppenent then bang, ur hit back. i heard hit stun is low and this happened in melee even with l cancel. its gonna happen but have u noticed it being in brawl alot?

 

[DragonBlade]

I'd just like to point out, that there is a lot less hit lag overall in Brawl. I don't know why people are saying otherwise. Its so short that sometimes when your slower moves connect, your opponent will actually recover before you and be able to attack you. If you hit someone up and try to follow up an aerial, almost always your opponent will either be too far away because they know how to DI, air doge before you reach him, or aerial attack you as you try to approach him. It makes combos much harder to do and heavily dependent on how skilled your opponent is. Good players really won't get comboed in brawl, except for a few 2 hit combos, and maybe a 3 hit if your opponent is terrible.

Regarding the aerial canceling, it seems that many aerials will cancel lag if you land while the hit box is not extended, and there are also a few will cancel during it, but these are usually the faster ones that don't really need to be canceled much. Its not nearly as useful as you would think, since it limits the positions and times you can do many aerials, and its just not possible with some of them. Its not really enough to make up for what I said in the first paragraph.

But feel free to argue with me about how the game isn't even out yet and how its much too soon to say how comboing sucks in Brawl, I've only had the game for a month, so clearly I know nothing about the game yet...

 

[technomancer]

Don't argue with G-Reg, and every time you refuse to learn about something because you don't think you'll use it then you are put at a disadvantage.

 

[SynikaL]

Synikal you always post in such a matter-of-fact manner, i can never tell if you are agreeing with someone or arguing against them. You are pretty much an ***-hole haha <3.

lol, I don't like to think I'm an ******* >_>. I just strongly believe that sugar coating thoughts and opinions only prevents people from getting to the bottom of things -- so I don't do it. People often mistake my directness for offensive intentions when none exist.

and id say this is something to get excited about, because the people who know how to do it correctly will win in tournament, and the people who don't will be left behind.

I guess it's exciting when contained within the context of Brawl alone (if Brawl is your thing), but looking at the franchise as a whole, AFAIK, Auto Cancel existed in 64. My post was mostly directed to those exhibiting some quite delusional traits by implying Brawl is somehow deeper than its predecessors simply because you have to rely more on such a base mechanic of the franchise (although somewhat obscure up until now).

-Kimosabae

 

[g-regulate]

and regardless of how the mechanics work, bottom line is theres a way to be FASTER in this game, an actual strategy to get attacks out quicker and make the game more competitive. thats the point im trying to make here.

. yea

 

[Vegeta214]

I agree with you g-reg. This IS a reason to be excited - it makes the game more competitive and that's what most of us want. I'm looking into different characters to find more moves that can be cancelled in this way.

 

[Tristan_win]

Well this is grand and all but what about when you hit your opponent shield? In melee I had to learn the timing for the faint delay for hitting my opponents shield but with moves that only auto-canceling only on a few select frames wouldn't this be **** near impossible?

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

You'll see when you get the game and try it out yourself, I guess.

 

[VirtualVoid]

I've been testing landing various aerials at various times and it all comes down to this:

1. Every aerial attack (Not including specific B moves done in the air) will cause your character to do some animation if you land during the animation of the aerial. During this animation you cannot do anything. Some aerials have a longer landing animation (Read: lag when you land) and some have very short landing animations that you can barely notice (Read: you can react almost instantly after you land).

2. Lots of aerials, including the ones with lots of landing lag can be fully completed during a shorthop, completing the aerial before landing will result in 0 frames of lag.

What it means for the tournament scene? It means that you should know which aerials you can "safely" land with and still prevent enemy attacking back / shieldgrab. You should also know which more laggy aerials you can complete in a shorthop and if you can get more than one.

Example: Luigi's uair has some lag if you land while doing it. It's not alot but it's noticeable. However, you can shorthop, do two uairs and land without any lag because the 2nd uair will be already completed.

All this info can easily be tested in training mode 1/4 speed.

 

[ChaosKnight]

srry kusha and virtual but there are certain specific ways to cancel the moves it has been done.. ive actually done it in tourney before.

nah its not really impossible if sheild is up since you can space it and cancel if you know the timing down

 

[VirtualVoid]

srry kusha and virtual but there are certain specific ways to cancel the moves it has been done.. ive actually done it in tourney before.

nah its not really impossible if sheild is up since you can space it and cancel if you know the timing down

Can you give me one move that if I land while doing it (normally) I'll have lag and if I land it during a specific time I wont have lag?

 

[Tino's White Horse]

What can you tell me about Mr. Game and Watch?

 

[VirtualVoid]

What can you tell me about Mr. Game and Watch?

What do you mean? What do you want to know about G&W that is related to this thread?

 

[g-regulate]

@ virtual, i give you an example in the first post about Snake

 

[VirtualVoid]

@ virtual, i give you an example in the first post about Snake

That is incorrect sir, in the example you gave the lag is gone because the move is already completed while you land, it's the same thing as jumping and not doing anything at all.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Proof please. A vid or something.

 

[g-regulate]

if thats how it works, then thats how i mean it. doing aerials in that fashion into other moves makes your character faster and more fluid while playing.

 

[I.T.P]

but that was allready existent in both Melee and SSB64, if you finish the animation before landing, you only get landing animation, it's obvious...

 

[VirtualVoid]

Like I said, the only way you will not have lag from an otherwise laggy move is finish it before you land, you cannot cancel any lag in any way from aerial moves, they all have a set ammount of lag when you land while doing them be it big or small.

 

[Tino's White Horse]

What do you mean? What do you want to know about G&W that is related to this thread?

What can you tell me about aerial cancelling for Mr. Game and Watch?

 

[g-regulate]

yea, but in brawl, its useful and actually works into combos. l-canceling was the best and only option for high level competitive play in melee

 

[VirtualVoid]

What can you tell me about aerial cancelling for Mr. Game and Watch?

There is nothing specific for G&W his aerials have some lag if you land while doing them, the nair has very little and it's the only move you can complete in a shorthop which means you can shorthop nair and double jump before you hit the ground.

Also, if you do full jump then at the peak use your double jump and at the peak of that use upB and straight away use the Dair, it will end just before you hit the ground and it will have 0 lag, might be usefull, dont know.

 

[SynikaL]

Like I said, the only way you will not have lag from an otherwise laggy move is finish it before you land, you cannot cancel any lag in any way from aerial moves, they all have a set ammount of lag when you land while doing them be it big or small.

Most laggy moves will "Auto-Cancel" if landed towards the end of their animations. Some Auto-Cancels aren't that practical, such as Ganon's Fair, which would require you to perform it very high in the air in order for it to AC on landing. A Short Hop Up Air/Dair (has to executed very quickly), however, should be more flexible.


-Kye

 

[I.T.P]

yea, but in brawl, its useful and actually works into combos. l-canceling was the best and only option for high level competitive play in melee

not really, you can play high level with after animation uses, lots of characters use it, it's just much more apparent now that the alternative has been taken out.

this still doesn't make this into AN IMPORTANT NEW ASPECT or DISCOVERY that you made it to be, it was blatantly obvious to anyone that ever played smash without knowing what L-Canceling was, and learned it while advancing.

you might say this is a step backwards, but it's actually a step forward, cause it forces the players to deal with the original in-game balance, and work it to their favour skillfully.

 

[DragonBlade]

if thats how it works, then thats how i mean it. doing aerials in that fashion into other moves makes your character faster and more fluid while playing.

Not trying to be rude, but its sort of obvious that you will have less lag if you land after finish the move. Did it really deserve its own post (especially how you worded it)? Its rather annoying seeing every minor nuance being over exaggerated as if it was an AT. People actually think these are ATs like WDing and Lcanceling, and thus they fail to realize or admit that brawl is a less technical game as of now.