Advanced patch

[LordLocke]

Because an advanced techniques switch would imply that it's there for the sole benefit of the game, when we have no idea yet what Brawl plays like at high levels. Nobody would ever give the game a try without it, because everyone would be 'hey, real players use these techniques- can't play a tournament without them.' Even if it's not how Brawl was intended by the developers, nobody would give the game a chance without them around, stuck in a Melee mindset how THAT game needed them in order to be a real, competitive title, not even considering that Brawl might have been built from the ground-up with the vision that L-canceling and Wave Dashing weren't going to be there.

Brawl does not equal Melee. It's just like any other new game in a fighting franchise- some things stay, some things go. L-canceling and Wavedashing were left out. Now, to see how Brawl was built to adapt to some of these changes.

Come back and rant about how the loss of L-canceling ruined Brawl in six months, when you might actually have an effing clue about whether or not it actually did. Right now, it's just the worst kind of information- barely-informed speculation. You got enough knowledge to start to form an opinion- but you still don't have a clue what you're really talking about. Just enough to act like you do.

 

[edde]

amen

10landmasters

 

[Zenjamin]

As you can see, they're two different codes.

Yes, i understand and agree

You can't just "insert" those new code lines into the original code at will--you'd have to change the entire gameplay code

why?
we have metal melee, lightening melee, slo-mo melee, giant, metal, low gravity, lightening, melee.

they change the code for different modes all the time, you cant be telling me the simple code you mentioned above could be harder then all of the unique modes (that you can customize all at once) listed above.


LordLocke:
your argument is that we cant have a switch like that because too many people in the completive community would use it?
ya, sorry, that argument doesnt really fly.

I would much rather play the best way i can, with as much virsitle options avalable to me as possible then to conform to some simple fixed code designed to limit my options in gameplay.

 

[m0dredus]

Alright, I suppose I understand your argument Zen. However, like it seems everyone else doesn't, I don't agree with your argument. I think that the idea of creating an Adv.Tech button would mess up the online play. Which is an obvious goal with this game. While the competitive community might want to play at a higher level with Adv.Tech, we must admit that we are a minority, and the majority of players are much more casual, and don't know what an L-Cancel is, let alone actually perform one. Also, with internet lag and such things, it would be impossible to time these things perfectly enough for them to work reliably.

 

[Papapaint]

why?
we have metal melee, lightening melee, slo-mo melee, giant, metal, low gravity, lightening, melee.

they change the code for different modes all the time, you cant be telling me the simple code you mentioned above could be harder then all of the unique modes (that you can customize all at once) listed above.

Because those change character attributes, not gameplay attributes. Those say

Character (variable)= 100

And then that figure is independant through the rest of the game.

 

[Zenjamin]

Because those change character attributes, not gameplay attributes. Those say

Character (variable)= 100

And then that figure is independant through the rest of the game.

Im still not getting it.
when you make a mode for low gravity, it specifically has a code for charcter=less gravaty. it doesnt actually change the gravaty, right?

so why couldnt you do the same charcter specific thing for a specific mode? dont change the whole codding. (which i think happens quite abit with all the unique modes and stages we can build.)
just say "charcter=no landing lag when charcter does X"

Alright, I suppose I understand your argument Zen. However, like it seems everyone else doesn't, I don't agree with your argument. I think that the idea of creating an Adv.Tech button would mess up the online play. Which is an obvious goal with this game. While the competitive community might want to play at a higher level with Adv.Tech, we must admit that we are a minority, and the majority of players are much more casual, and don't know what an L-Cancel is, let alone actually perform one.

well, tahts why i was in favor of LagCanceling being done by fast falling. Verry easy for everyone to discover on their own and use.

But regardless, even if the people who perfered to use the switch were in the minority... so what?
competive players will be playing with friend codes anyways, and they would both have the stitch on, and it would be disabled for "for everyone" online play as its a specific mode.

i dont see the conflict.

 

[7734]

Zenj.. Eventually people will find advanced techniques to exploit in brawl. Maybe not the same as melee, but enough to determine the noobs from the pros. When melee came out everyone sucked and it seemed really slow. This is why I rejected melee for the 64 version for so long....

....And this is why I'm still going to be playing melee a year from now.

 

[Zenjamin]

O, I know that the Noobs will still be Noobs and the Pros will still be pros.

But I dont see Pro battles being as fun, much slower and restricted it is looking.


and normally I would be with everyone else saying that Lcanceling and the other advanced techs would soon be discovered,
but they were already discovered in the Demo, and then taken out.



PS, do you know anyone in Texas who will have the *** version of brawl soon? if so, we could play within the week. Jordon is getting his soon and he has a moded Wii.

 

[sffadsad]

Zen the thing about custom melee is that the switches in fact activate certain item codes, which should work a bit like triggers. Slow-mo melee could be added simply by adding a code that would cause a slow down of time in the whole match if a certain trigger was activated.


What you are suggesting requires the changing of the core of the game. Honestly, the only way to have advanced techs in and be able to choose to use them or not is if they're coded in from the beginning. A "switch" to change the game mechanics is simply not possible in game. In order to do so you would have to change the game code everytime you wish to have advanced techs on or off.

Besides you're worried that taking out L-canceling takes away from the game am I correct? Well in my opinion it actually forces the player to think more in terms of strategy during battle. Instead of developing a reflex to simply make every move effective and reduce the consequences of using an attack in a certain situation, a player is forced to ponder, "If I use Link's Dair in this situation would the resulting recover time give the enemy an opening or would I be able to use it without worry?" On the flip side the enemy is also forced to think, "OK he just used this attack against me, how can I recover and can I possibly use his resulting recovery time to my advantage?" This, to me, adds more depth than an advanced tech that causes a slightly more mechanical train of thought like, attack, L-cancel, follow up with a combo, and KO.

 

[jdub03]

Zen the thing about custom melee is that the switches in fact activate certain item codes, which should work a bit like triggers. Slow-mo melee could be added simply by adding a code that would cause a slow down of time in the whole match if a certain trigger was activated.


What you are suggesting requires the changing of the core of the game. Honestly, the only way to have advanced techs in and be able to choose to use them or not is if they're coded in from the beginning. A "switch" to change the game mechanics is simply not possible in game. In order to do so you would have to change the game code everytime you wish to have advanced techs on or off.

Besides you're worried that taking out L-canceling takes away from the game am I correct? Well in my opinion it actually forces the player to think more in terms of strategy during battle. Instead of developing a reflex to simply make every move effective and reduce the consequences of using an attack in a certain situation, a player is forced to ponder, "If I use Link's Dair in this situation would the resulting recover time give the enemy an opening or would I be able to use it without worry?" On the flip side the enemy is also forced to think, "OK he just used this attack against me, how can I recover and can I possibly use his resulting recovery time to my advantage?" This, to me, adds more depth than an advanced tech that causes a slightly more mechanical train of thought like, attack, L-cancel, follow up with a combo, and KO.

Well lag canceling was in the game in the beginning. It was in the demo. They removed it for the final game. I'm 99% sure they looked at all the things being discovered in the demo by pros and decided what could stay and what could go. L-canceling was one of those things that got the axe.

I would have loved for brawl to at least have l-canceling in it, and be a lot less floaty. It has online and seeing as how I'm not in a position to attend tourneys regularly this will be my only option for competitive play. I'll just have to deal with it.

 

[Zenjamin]

sffadsad, you seem to be saying that slower gameplay equates to more mindgames... thats not quite true, but what you said about the possibility of a switch... I didnt understand it.

so right now i have no choice other then to trust that you know more about the possibility of the code then me... which gives me an excuse to work on the 3 papers i have due monday.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

1 vs. 1 in brawl will still be fun/competive cuz ganon can tech-chase with his side b........

 

[Zenjamin]

[sarcasm]Ya, i saw that. looked real exciting.[/sarcasm]

this is my point.
that was all ganon was able to do.
sideB, and have a 50/50 chance that you can sideB again.

where as in melee you had the option to dashdance around, wait for the read, follow up with a SHFFLed stomp, and continue from there.

the more options you have in any given situation, the more options you have for a mindgame and to lead into a stock.
instead of a game of risk/chance.

 

[Magus420]

Ganon's side-B was more effective as a techchasing move in melee. It covered all but just one landing option for them, and that option and all others but a different one were covered by using it in the other direction. Beastly.

 

[veil222]

I only have one reason for not having a tech button... people would get abused online for not using it, especially here. If you even suggested NOT using the tech button in an online match you'd get called a noob 50 times before you could leave the game.

Zen, you keep saying you're open to arguments and alternate solutions but you keep taking the same stance that everyone that are pissed at the roster are. "I want everything I want in the game, I don't want anything I liked about melee taken away even though this isn't melee, and unless they do this this game will be nothing but casual and can't possibly be complex or deep". You're setting yourself up to not like this game no matter what kind of argument people find to show counter to it.

Just today I watched a Ganon fight a Marth, and the Marth kept trying to sheild grab/spot dodge grab his fair. Out of the 30 times he tried it maybe 2 worked and this is why: the new sheild encounter and ariel physics made that tactic less effective. When the marth sheilded he got shoved further back than a mewtwo taking a Cfalcon knee to the face while sheilding in melee. He was so far away the Ganon even landed with full lag time and was able to hop again before the marth could chase with an attack. When the marth spot dodged, the Ganon used his extra floatie-ness gained from the slower engine to DI away as he was still rising with his fair. Because he rose with the attack, he had no lag when landing just outside of marths attack range and could get away or press the attack again.

This game will be competitive whether you like it's changes or not, and even here on smash boards where most of the population is competitive, most people are dis-agreeing with you. If you're outnimbered on your ideas *here*, there's no way the idea would get enough merit to ever impliment.

This is another "I wish brawl was like this instead" thread well disguiesed as a realistic suggestion.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

So you want the option to change the game physics wow that makes no sense you actually no nothing of how all this works sakurai did not just say "hey lets take out the advanced techniques" the techniques are out for various reasons wavedashing because the air dodge system was changed L-canceling was taken out to prevent online lag, simply saying give us an option to turn on advance techniques is selfish and would take alot of time to do it.

 

[Dantarion]

GLM, where did you hear that L-Canceling was removed to prevent lag?

Don't speculate on reasons and state them as fact. Unless you have a link to a official source talking about this, don't try to give reasons why things are removed.

 

[Zenjamin]

@veil222:
while i 100% disagree with the idea that the switch would be unfair because people who didnt want to use it would be afraid of being called a noob, that match you mentioned sounds verry interesting. (even though, Lcanceling, and DDing would not take away form that situation, only add to it.)

could you please provide the link?

L-canceling was taken out to prevent online lag

You got a source on that, or are you just pulling it out of your ass?

 

[XDead Sexy]

(Facepalm.gif) SURE HE PUT IN MOVES HE PURPOSELY REMOVED sorry but i think we got a better shot of getting characters if anything at all.

 

[tutata]

This is real good thread please to flame it with, "stop crying about adv techs being off" This is smashboards.com! This one of the best things ive heard so far in the forums.

 

[cynar]

The threads get dumber and dumber. You're asking Nintendo to put bugs in their game. If you're good enough you'll be able to find new stuff and compete. **** kids.

 

[veil222]

Zen, let me see if I can find a link of someone doing it. I was watching a live stream, and that's where that match happened. I was lucky to find a guy who knew what he was doing, but he was only casting for 3 hours or so. I think one of the vids in one of the posts on the board has it, I'll dig that up for ya and see if it's a good example of what I'm talking about.

 

[veil222]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mxfh5MyMdXY&feature=user

This one isn't a bad example of what I was talking about. Just watch when someone gets hit while sheilding by anything. At about 1:18 Falco even uses his a combo to push ganon too far away to sheild grab, if that can do it, just imagine what a strong ariel would do. Well, you don't need to imagine, at 2:35, ganon lands his fair on falco *and shoves him clean off the edge*. Even if that falco wasn't pushed off the edge, it would have been really hard to try to punish that. By the time he could close the distance the Ganon would have recovered. Again, at 3:02 there's a great example, Ganon lands his fsmash on falco's sheild and shoves him too far back to even punish, let alone sheild grab.

 

[Kentalish]

i bet youill stop QQing a month after brawls out in america cuz were going to find new ones... and most characters have barly any lag... hell dedede is the pwnage

 

[Gojithefox]

Yes, and normally I would not jump to conclusions...
But the advanced techs were already found in the Demo... they were taken out.


If it were not for the demo, i would make no assumptions about what was or wasnt taken out, or how hard the code for those techs were.

Advanced techniques... depth... I'm beginning to believe that these things are imaginary. If they were taken out of the game, then they were clearly *not* intended to be there, meaning that rather than be purposeful, they were oversights in the coding. Anything not intended to be in the game is an exploit, and I share the opinion that use of these exploits does not deem a person 'professional'.

As long as this game is immensely enjoyable to the general population, I will agree with Sakurai's decisions.

 

[The Mark]

I think the best thing that can be said in this situation is this.

Given the fact the sakurai and crew deemed the advance techs found in the demo unworthy to be in brawl, I don't ever see them just turning around and releasing a patch to "turn off and turn on" advance techniques. If anything what would be the point of ever having the switch turned off? to a newbie player, the switch being off and on wouldn't even go noticed to him so basically, what your asking is for sakurai to add a useless content switch for the small group out of millions who play this game

The vaild arguement would be for 1 v 1, no items, random match Wi-Fi. Or voicechat or something.

In a nut shell, if sakurai had any plans for the advance techs to return then he would have had them in the finished game already.

As much as we all would like them to return, sakurai for whatever reason favors the casual crowd. Who is to say that tomorrow, a month, or even a year from now that maybe L-canceling or other advance techs won't be found? We just have to wait, after all the game has been out for 3 DAYS and these threads are popping up.

Face it. It's too early, the advance techs as we know them are gone, and nobody here will ever be able to give you a valid reason as to why the techs are gone.

/Thread.

 

[veil222]

The mark... I gave a valid reason why the L-Cancel tech is gone... are you one of those people who just read the first post of a topic then reply to it thinking the convorsation has gone nowhere since then?

 

[Zenjamin]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mxfh5MyMdXY&feature=user

This one isn't a bad example of what I was talking about. Just watch when someone gets hit while sheilding by anything. At about 1:18 Falco even uses his a combo to push ganon too far away to sheild grab, if that can do it, just imagine what a strong ariel would do. Well, you don't need to imagine, at 2:35, ganon lands his fair on falco *and shoves him clean off the edge*. Even if that falco wasn't pushed off the edge, it would have been really hard to try to punish that. By the time he could close the distance the Ganon would have recovered. Again, at 3:02 there's a great example, Ganon lands his fsmash on falco's sheild and shoves him too far back to even punish, let alone sheild grab.

@1:18 there was no combo... in fact, i have yet to see an actual combo besides auto-a spamming moves


anyways, I see what your saying about sheilds being used as a defensive move rather then an offensive move.
ya, good. i agree. whats your point?
I dont doubt anybodys ability to point out good things about the games completive potential.

But that doesnt mean it couldnt be better, improved on.
none of the things that were removed from the demo would take away from the situation you mentioned, only add to the possibilitys.



and to those of you who are saying "why would you add something only for the minority?"
I hate to point out the obvious... that i have already pointed out, but Id say people who play as giant metal firebreathing charcters in low gravaty are in the minority as well *rolls eyes*

 

[ace_skoot]

brawl is not melee, get over it !

 

[greenblob]

I'd first wait for some zero-to-death combos to be discovered. If none come about, I'll join in.
If Sakurai made it so that you can't combo effectively, to me Brawl will be forever known as the most disappointing game in history.

 

[Zenjamin]

"brawl is not melee, get over it !"

... the stupidity of the Brawl boards is starting to get to me. no more logical discussion, no more respect...

 

[Ebony Princess]

"brawl is not melee, get over it !"

... the stupidity of the Brawl boards is starting to get to me. no more logical discussion, no more respect...

You are one of the people bringing stupidity. He's right, Brawl is not Melee, so you're going to have to get used to it.

 

[Papapaint]

I'd first wait for some zero-to-death combos to be discovered. If none come about, I'll join in.
If Sakurai made it so that you can't combo effectively, to me Brawl will be forever known as the most disappointing game in history.

0-death combos don't make a game good. They make it flashy, but they don't make it good. If you play smash to push buttons fast and impress people, stick with melee.

This is a thinking man's game.

 

[wagnerelli]

By the way, I must compliment you on completely ignoring arguments that destroy yours. Including "MELEE's METAGAME WASN'T FOUNDED THE FIRST THREE DAYS!"

 

[ComradeCanada]

 

[Gojithefox]

What I most like about that video is that it seemed that, though Falco was faster, Gannondorf managed to hold his own, which is what I believe the intention of the game was.

 

[Lunaretic]

But PLEASE. Sakurai, If you ever had any respect for the completive community, PLEASE add a patch with the option to turn advanced techs on.

Now, first, my knowledge of advanced smash is quite minimal, that said, my knowledge as a game-dev is quite extensive. From a pure business standpoint, this is one of -the- most atrocious ideas I've seen. Lets look at our options here:

1) No 'advanced tech' patch/switch is added. The community then has 2 responses.
1a) The community never finds any way to compete for some reason with the lack of the specific techs in question, such as the wave-dash/l-Cancel, however, this is such an unlikely event as to almost be not worth considering.(-Look- at the kinds of games that have competitive bases, some of them are ridiculous. To say a game as popular a brawl won't have a competitive group unless it uses a specific skillset is nonsense.)
1b) The community as known before dies out and a new community based around a different skillset arises, this affect the big N not at all, as there's still a high-tier community to keep the game/metagame fresh, and it still sells well to casuals.

2) They create an 'advanced tech' patch/switch and send it out. Again, 2 options.
2a) The competitive community suction-cups themselves to the advanced tech option, this causes an entire string of issues. First, we kill player's abilities for someone who doesn't have an internet connection for their wii's ability to play competitively(No patch = no competitive play?). Second, we cause a huge concrete rift between casuals and comptitives, causing the transition between the two to be long, and painful, resulting in an ever diminishing size of competitive players. Like it or not, the casual circle is where the best smashers came from at some point, you didn't pick up a controller knowing how to wavedash, cut them off and you cut off your own head. Third, we have the potential to split the Competitive base itself into two groups, one pro-techs and one anti-techs, based upon which players feel is more fun and better balanced.
2b) The competitive community rejects the switch, in which case the big N has gone through the entire effort of adding this switch for something that will most likely never really be used beyond one 'hey lets try this out!' match.


Any way you slice it, there's high potential for the big N to lose either respect, time, or money by producing the switch, where as not producing it has almost no chance of them losing any significant amount of the above.

 

[Azamgi]

Well, this may be a bit selfish of me, but I'm glad advanced techniques are gone because I could never do them!

I am personally sick of the way Melee relied on them. Let them bring on a new game! I will learn to master this one for sure.

 

[Zenjamin]

You are one of the people bringing stupidity. He's right, Brawl is not Melee, so you're going to have to get used to it.

no logic or reason stated, proof that you have not read my previous posts where I have mentioned that i support a new game, but change should mean additions or eveolotion, and not reductions.

0-death combos don't make a game good. They make it flashy, but they don't make it good. If you play smash to push buttons fast and impress people, stick with melee.

This is a thinking man's game.

So was Melee, extra options DO NOT limit your mind games, it expands them.

What I most like about that video is that it seemed that, though Falco was faster, Gannondorf managed to hold his own, which is what I believe the intention of the game was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLLWj83nRyY&NR=1

again, the things i mentioned do NOT take away from any positive aspect of brawl, it only adds to them

By the way, I must compliment you on completely ignoring arguments that destroy yours. Including "MELEE's METAGAME WASN'T FOUNDED THE FIRST THREE DAYS!"

umm, no i havent.
I mentioned how Lcanceling and dashdancing and every other advanced tech that was in the 64 version was found verry quickly.

I mentioned how the advanced techs were found in the demo and there is no logical reason why they would take them out and add them in every aspect of the game in a different format.

QFT




ive requested that Gimpy lock this thread.

the maturity and quality of posts here is starting to hurt my head.

 

[Coen]

Closed due to thread owner requesting a lock. I see what you were talking about Zenjamin.