Adept Vantage ~ Marth / Lucina Custom Specials + Optimisations

[Shadestars]

I've tried da in a tournament to tremendous success. It opens up so much more punish and string options it's crazy. Like, it has to be objectively better, sb's only true advantage is the shield pressure right? Which is useful, but not 'I can punish and set-up from anywhere on stage' useful. Yeah you can spot dodge and punish da, but sb is objectively worse for getting punished. I had no trouble with people blocking/punishing da, cause I'm not a dumb using it in front of projectile spam and used it to punish well so I ended up being VERY annoying with it lol, destroyed this Ness who was trying to set up pk fire the whole game but I was constantly in his face, up in Marth town. I think some people see the higher reward for sb and trick themselves into thinking it's better, Eehh it's not that great. Something can be said for sb killing early but I use crescent slash aswell, which is a more reliable kill option against shields, Sssooo...don't really need that shield pressure.

 

[Random4811]

I've tried da in a tournament to tremendous success. It opens up so much more punish and string options it's crazy. Like, it has to be objectively better, sb's only true advantage is the shield pressure right? Which is useful, but not 'I can punish and set-up from anywhere on stage' useful. Yeah you can spot dodge and punish da, but sb is objectively worse for getting punished. I had no trouble with people blocking/punishing da, cause I'm not a dumb using it in front of projectile spam and used it to punish well so I ended up being VERY annoying with it lol, destroyed this Ness who was trying to set up pk fire the whole game but I was constantly in his face, up in Marth town. I think some people see the higher reward for sb and trick themselves into thinking it's better, Eehh it's not that great. Something can be said for sb killing early but I use crescent slash aswell, which is a more reliable kill option against shields, Sssooo...don't really need that shield pressure.

Its not only good for shield pressure though. It does good damage to open players as well. It also has good knockback, and is a good poke for edgeguarding. It either forces your opponent to try to FF then recover, or try to go over our heads, both of which is dangerous for them. If they overshoot their recovery by a little bit and dont grab the edge, you can take your opportunity and kill really early.

 

[Shaya]

Dash Assault is a punishing move. You can still use shieldbreaker for a punish, and I do, and it's good.
But dash assault is vastly superior as a punishing move.

Smash is all about punishing and neutral. Everyone aims to have a perfect neutral so there are no holes for punishment. Neutral is broken through pressure or respect. If my opponent knows that for any move they use from almost any distance with 20 frames or more of lag (i.e. like every move) I can punish it.
The moment my opponent has to fear being punished doing actions which would otherwise be safe, their neutral is shattered, and they have to adjust/adapt.

Dash assault is poor on shield, but I tend to not have issues over coming spot dodges with it (and they tend to have more lag than shield dropping).

People are using shield breaker as a mixture of some aerial charged smash attack (hint: charging smash attacks is pretty gimmicky) or as an extra long range spacing/punishment tool. Dash assault out does the latter by far. If you're using 20 frame start up melee-range moves in neutral with 30 frames of lag, you're doing something wrong. Using dash assault in neutral is equally as bad/dumb.

Marth is a character with some of the best (in terms of consistency) punishment options in the game. That's the stem of Marth's neutral, the opponent having to respect/fear this.

 

[Kinslayer]

Rogs super in ST is the best super in the game, has incredible damage, can be comboed into, can blow through virtually any attack save for dragon punches, and is SAFE ON BLOCK.

Did you really compare one of the greatest supers in fighting game history to an attack that has almost 20 frame start-up and is completely unsafe and nowhere near on the level of game changing as the former?

Tell me you didn't.

BTW SB and DA both have horrible shield stun. Neither is truly safe. DA is overall safer thanks to moving away from your opponent.

No one said st emblem Talking about sf4. In st ryu didn't best rog to begin with it was 5-5 even without meter.

You are completely missing the point. It was an example showing how the threat of an option can be better than or just as good as the options itself but you apparently didn't read that.

Also if both are unsafe why are you reaming someone for having a prefrence in SB rather than DA?
You're hoping that gliding behind someone will make it safe but in reality it will most likely be punished just as badly if not worse depending on how the person chooses to evade it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was explaining why the threat of said option exist to begin with. SB creates no such threat. DA however immediately puts opponents where Marth wants them. It's another option in his trap game, that actually makes his trap game kind of braindead. That's why the damage is low. Put them in an air to ground trap where they have to land then let DA rip. If done perfectly within the right circumstance they can't stop it. They eat it and get carried to the ledge. They would have to take a risk to avoid this trap scenario which plays right into Marths hands and opens up other options.

The way you use SB, it sounds like a ghetto mix-up. High risk/high reward. Which is fine. But DA is low risk/moderate to high reward when used correctly. And its far easier to see results with.

 

[Shadestars]

Its not only good for shield pressure though. It does good damage to open players as well. It also has good knockback, and is a good poke for edgeguarding. It either forces your opponent to try to FF then recover, or try to go over our heads, both of which is dangerous for them. If they overshoot their recovery by a little bit and dont grab the edge, you can take your opportunity and kill really early.

Eeehh that's still not substantial enough considering marth has other options that do kinda the same thing. DA doesn't remove those options you've listed either, just makes them weaker while adding a plethora of new ones which are more useful.

 

[Kinslayer]

I was explaining why the threat of said option exist to begin with. SB creates no such threat. DA however immediately puts opponents where Marth wants them. It's another option in his trap game, that actually makes his trap game kind of braindead. That's why the damage is low. Put them in an air to ground trap where they have to land then let DA rip. If done perfectly within the right circumstance they can't stop it. They eat it and get carried to the ledge. They would have to take a risk to avoid this trap scenario which plays right into Marths hands and opens up other options.

The way you use SB, it sounds like a ghetto mix-up. High risk/high reward. Which is fine. But DA is low risk/moderate to high reward when used correctly. And its far easier to see results with.

Nothing again you miss the point. It's not a mix up and there is nothing about it that is Ghetto, It is simply yomi. You having an option able to pop or punish someone and you showing them you aren't afraid to use it does amazing things. Punishing people for using a defensive option like a shield, poke people being overly aggressive at a distance, just suprising the opponent at times makes people approach differently, and makes them not shield as much in close ranges. What does this do for us? It opens us up to go in the offensive and allows us to start bull dogging a bit with the all american (or japanese) classics with slightly less risk.

Don't get me wrong dashing assault is a good move, but I think it will be more a matter of match up when we use it rather than "this is the absolutely best of our neutral b options, we must use it all the time."
Shield breaker is a move that has a presence simply by being present. Think of wake up Dragon punches. New people may see them as random and scrubby, but if you watch any pros play Ryu in any game you'll always see one early to mid round because they want you to know they aren't afraid to stick it out in that situation. All it takes is for you to eat 1 or 2 and you will begin respecting their wake up. They don't even have to do it again because you respect the option that is there.

 

[Shaya]

What stopped Marth means using Shield breaker as effectively as you make it out to be in previous iterations of Smash (specifically Brawl)?

When considering:
1. They both have 80% shield damage
2. They both the same start up
3. They're similar reach/range (if not the same)

 

[Kinslayer]

What stopped Marth means using Shield breaker as effectively as you make it out to be in previous iterations of Smash (specifically Brawl)?

When considering:
1. They both have 80% shield damage
2. They both the same start up
3. They're similar reach/range (if not the same)

That never stopped it from being solid

I just believe in brawl we has far more offensive options that outclassed it a few of which have been hit pretty hard. Like are air moves in brawl really left nothing to be desired so be didn't really need to play this way. It's not that it wasn't viable as an option or even unused (Neo has used it a few times in brawl) but it's just outclassed by tons of other moves that controlled space, didn't have much recovery, and allowed us to disengage or approach. We just didn't really need it.

 

[Random4811]

Eeehh that's still not substantial enough considering marth has other options that do kinda the same thing. DA doesn't remove those options you've listed either, just makes them weaker while adding a plethora of new ones which are more useful.

For me, when I've got my opponents at higher percents its pretty useful. I can whiff it while jumping backward away from my opponent, prompting them to respond giving me time to aptly control the situation, or I can go for light pokes, which do quite a bit of damage even at low charge, and have a considerable amount of knockback allowing me to further force reactions out of my opponent from there. I like it. I don't like DA. Its damage and kb are abysmal. Its good for spacing, but it isnt an end-all be-all move that is universally useful and impossible to punish. When it comes to space control, I prefer baiting my opponent, or taking advantage of the foxtrot, which is quite sexy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why would you WANT to whiff a move thats almost an entire second? That's not a bait. It's ridiculous is what it is. DA is not impossible to punish. It IS universally useful. Also...space control is a concrete aspect of the game. Baiting is yomi and has to do with player mentality and reads. They are two different things.

I feel as though, you are just posting things to validate your reasoning. Which is ridiculous because if you like something then you don't need a reason to choose it over something else.

Also a shoryuken is infinitely superior to SB for a multitude of reasons. I see what you are trying to say kinslayer but the comparison does not work at all. shoryukens are a core aspect of the shoto gameplan and are useful for several different scenarios. And when used in certain scenarios, is perfect for controlling your opponent due to fast start-up, invincibility and solid damage. It's a risk only when used in maybe 2 situations, but overall its a pillar of shoto gameplay. I could not the say the same about SB. It lacks the utility of a dragon punch and requires reads. You compared it to a DP in one situation and thats not doing DPs justice at all. Also in ST dps are pretty safe on block when you use the light version and its spaced well. Decent in footsies. In SF4 they can lead to huge conversion with meter and until the recent update they were very safe when FADCed. Cammy's is still pretty safe as well as a few others that belong to chars with good backdashes.

Yeah, no...the comparison falls apart. SB is less effective as anti shield tech at higher levels and more of a high priority poke and if thats the case DA is certainly the better option.

Also I personally will not respond to anything regarding this argument. I feel like the arguments being made for SB are faulty at best and out right nonsense at worst. Ultimately it's not my job to convince anyone of anything. That is not the role I chose for myself within the Marth community.

I have said my piece on this particular subject matter. Now I'm done.

 

[Shaya]

The extent at which I play for glory recently has me using shield breaker and developing it more than before.
It's a really high skill cap move. It's range is genuinely huge, like, well beyond the stab you see (Marth seems to do this little blue shade effect much like ZSS Down-B and strikes like A THIRD of his sword length extra)... I would not be surprised if in that case of spacing it is virtually impossible to punish on shield or otherwise, roll ins at that spacing is actually putting them in front of you (interesting spacing quirk). But holy moly none of you should even dare to stipulate you're actually good enough to use this move consistently that well.

But then I look at a few match ups that would be hard for Marth usually (imo) like and how Dash Assault is necessary to be able to actually have a consistent reward against characters who can dominate us at mid and long range. We also cannot ignore the advantages we can press against so many others with it too. Shieldbreaker has a preference niche, but I think you won't be successful in tournament in many match ups without dash assault. And that's what we're all about here. Tournaments.

 

[Random4811]

The extent at which I play for glory recently has me using shield breaker and developing it more than before.
It's a really high skill cap move. It's range is genuinely huge, like, well beyond the stab you see (Marth seems to do this little blue shade effect much like ZSS Down-B and strikes like A THIRD of his sword length extra)... I would not be surprised if in that case of spacing it is virtually impossible to punish on shield or otherwise, roll ins at that spacing is actually putting them in front of you (interesting spacing quirk). But holy moly none of you should even dare to stipulate you're actually good enough to use this move consistently that well.

But then I look at a few match ups that would be hard for Marth usually (imo) like and how Dash Assault is necessary to be able to actually have a consistent reward against characters who can dominate us at mid and long range. We also cannot ignore the advantages we can press against so many others with it too. Shieldbreaker has a preference niche, but I think you won't be successful in tournament in many match ups without dash assault. And that's what we're all about here. Tournaments.

I agree with you on a lot here. Past some experimentation with it last week, I havent done much recent testing with DA. I can see where it may have some validity and use as you guys have been saying. I don't think its necessary for these matchups, but it'd certainly help with spacing against characters like Link.
As for those matchups, I'll agree with Lucario, Sonic, Villager, Link, and Yoshi definitely being harder for Marth. I think the rest really depend. ZSS isn't hard for Marth to go against in my experience, and Ness has been a joke so far (other than that back throw. Damn.) Bowser can be scary, but well placed counters and his slower speed make him fall apart. Every Charizard I've ever seen so far has been a joke. I've already said my thoughts on DDD as a matchup for us in another thread, and I don't have any opinions on DK. DHD isnt by my book either, just annoying. I've never played against Mii Gunner.

 

[Kinslayer]

Why would you WANT to whiff a move thats almost an entire second? That's not a bait. It's ridiculous is what it is. DA is not impossible to punish. It IS universally useful. Also...space control is a concrete aspect of the game. Baiting is yomi and has to do with player mentality and reads. They are two different things.

I feel as though, you are just posting things to validate your reasoning. Which is ridiculous because if you like something then you don't need a reason to choose it over something else.

Also a shoryuken is infinitely superior to SB for a multitude of reasons. I see what you are trying to say kinslayer but the comparison does not work at all. shoryukens are a core aspect of the shoto gameplan and are useful for several different scenarios. And when used in certain scenarios, is perfect for controlling your opponent due to fast start-up, invincibility and solid damage. It's a risk only when used in maybe 2 situations, but overall its a pillar of shoto gameplay. I could not the say the same about SB. It lacks the utility of a dragon punch and requires reads. You compared it to a DP in one situation and thats not doing DPs justice at all. Also in ST dps are pretty safe on block when you use the light version and its spaced well. Decent in footsies. In SF4 they can lead to huge conversion with meter and until the recent update they were very safe when FADCed. Cammy's is still pretty safe as well as a few others that belong to chars with good backdashes.

Yeah, no...the comparison falls apart. SB is less effective as anti shield tech at higher levels and more of a high priority poke and if thats the case DA is certainly the better option.

Also I personally will not respond to anything regarding this argument. I feel like the arguments being made for SB are faulty at best and out right nonsense at worst. Ultimately it's not my job to convince anyone of anything. That is not the role I chose for myself within the Marth community.

I have said my piece on this particular subject matter. Now I'm done.

The comparison works fine, you're attempting to look at the two particular moves and compare them where I am just using the shoryuken as an example, not a true comparison.

I disagree with that statement of Sb becoming less frightening at higher level for shields. Again I've seen players sticks it out only once or twice and it has an immediate better start dodge rolling more of his moves/pokes effect.
I prefer SB also because as you said it is a high priority poke and I prefer getting more damage for less charge time, I like the knockback and I don't really like the concept of sliding myself toward my opponent for a poke. That's not what pokes are for they are for controlling/attempting to gain control of an area/defending a space. I see DA as a punish tool not a poke at all. That's like cslling psycho crusher a poke. Except the pay out is way less for a DA than PC.

 

[Kinslayer]

The extent at which I play for glory recently has me using shield breaker and developing it more than before.
It's a really high skill cap move. It's range is genuinely huge, like, well beyond the stab you see (Marth seems to do this little blue shade effect much like ZSS Down-B and strikes like A THIRD of his sword length extra)... I would not be surprised if in that case of spacing it is virtually impossible to punish on shield or otherwise, roll ins at that spacing is actually putting them in front of you (interesting spacing quirk). But holy moly none of you should even dare to stipulate you're actually good enough to use this move consistently that well.

But then I look at a few match ups that would be hard for Marth usually (imo) like and how Dash Assault is necessary to be able to actually have a consistent reward against characters who can dominate us at mid and long range. We also cannot ignore the advantages we can press against so many others with it too. Shieldbreaker has a preference niche, but I think you won't be successful in tournament in many match ups without dash assault. And that's what we're all about here. Tournaments.

I must admit I don't think duck hunt, gunner, Zard, dedede, donkey kong, link, nor lucario, ness, or bowser outright beat us with our standard set. But I must admit even having a prefrence forr shield breaker, dashing assault is very anti dedede and sonic.

 

[Satan-]

Haven't really read the thread, honestly too lazy to. Just wanted to say that you should almost always use Dolphin Jump. There's really no reason not to. It makes it so you can recover from almost anywhere and allows you to go super deep for off stage edge guards.

In fact, I gimped a Zard by using DA off stage and still managed to recover.

The other two options are vastly inferior to DJ. Welp, that's all I wanted to say. Carry on with whatever convo you guys were having...

 

[Kinslayer]

Haven't really read the thread, honestly too lazy to. Just wanted to say that you should almost always use Dolphin Jump. There's really no reason not to. It makes it so you can recover from almost anywhere and allows you to go super deep for off stage edge guards.

In fact, I gimped a Zard by using DA off stage and still managed to recover.

The other two options are vastly inferior to DJ. Welp, that's all I wanted to say. Carry on with whatever convo you guys were having...

Not even talking about dolphin slash really.lol

 

[Shaya]

Yeah DA use off stage is probably the main reason I'd take DJ over DS.
But hmm, I think I still see potential use for that 5 frame OoS option. It may not have much more range than grab (but it can be angled a lot though, it just won't be able to hit shorties in this scenario; but still makes it strong on people using aerials or grounded mid height+ characters poking), but I'm sure there are tons of things we can punish with this game for a long time to come (early meta / poor controlling of the character by others), and it's definitely a lot safer in this game than it was in Brawl. I mean, if you're on battlefield it's almost as free to use as Shuttle Loop was in Brawl. WiiU has more platform stages where it'll have even more emphasis.

People multi jab on shields right now, and many have repetitions likely shorter than 3 frames (the time it takes before we're invincible).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bumping

My opinions on Crescent Slash have changed. I now consider all 3 of his up b customs to be good for different reasons.

CS feels like it has much better invincibility. The grab combo forward throw > CS resets a trap situation. Marcina lands before the opponent and it gives them enough time to close in attempt to pressure while staying fairly safe and force a bad response. Then an easy re-grab or DB to another trap is a great response.

Even if it doesnt kill, the ability to gain consistent reward for doing what Marth is supposed to do is reason enough to use CS. DA brings his ground game together and some chars have to change their gameplan when he has it. Sonic can't bully Marth anymore the same way and the aerial footsie monsters like wario and Jiggz need to be weary as well.

CS and DA bring amazing stage control to Marth's game. After a CS grab combo, if you see your opponent do something stupid while landing you can bust out a DA and catch them. This pushes them even closer to the ledge or off stage if they were close already and again this is what Marth wants.

These two customs give Marth the tools he needs to bully people off the stage like he is meant too.

 

[Wilyen]

3113 should be a standard