Adept Vantage ~ Marth / Lucina Custom Specials + Optimisations

[Shaya]

Custom specials are fantastic, and make many characters in this game more potent/option rich in ways that enhances the game's depth and overall character viability. Most events I'm aware of are willing to run customs legal, and if you plan on winning, and happen to want to do so with Marth or Lucina, you likely want to know what your best choices are.

I personally go with a 3113 load, retaining Dolphin Slash and using Iai counter. However, this is by personal choice. What is "safest" to use for any player not too certain or experienced with all their options should go with:

3131. Dash Assault, Regular Dancing Blade. Dolphin Jump because of it's obscene reach, allowing us to basically always recover, and be able to go very deep to edge guard or gimp, honestly, I will likely find myself switching to it in tournament due to the overall increase in safety I'll garner by taking it. Regular Counter will be more effective in "aggression", while Iai counter steps forward and knocks people behind them (but at stronger power), meaning it's definitely more defensive. Iai counter may be an easy choice to take up and never switch away from, but if you don't have it available don't fret!

Move | Notes

|Still a very potent move with a lot of potential. Switching to this move off of what would be the likely default of Dash Breaker will require adaption from your opponent that you can abuse. Still capable of getting you a guaranteed kill move. However, I think despite all this, the best use case of someone shielding a 19 frame move (which is very easy to react to) is going to be not as likely as one would hope.

|In short, pretty mediocre. Very low damage on the blade, with no damage on the windbox, killing it's perceived potential for zoning. May have some unique match up merit against those which a windbox could score a kill (Little Mac's Side B?). But even then other options seem vastly superior.

| Best call it DASH BREAKERRR because BREAKER is a cool word~ Best move in the game, your go to choice for turning Marth and Lucina into extremely potent threats against everyone. Slighter shorter in range than two of our rolls, or 1/3rd of FD. Retains transcended priority and seemed to just have extra hitboxes hitting all over the place. Fully charged it goes just short of 3 rolls, and has an extra hitbox in front of it that lingers; I believe some of the fully charged hitboxes have shield breaking properties, not as potent as the regular shield breaker.

| Standard and most versatile. Kills upwards and forwards on tippers. Always use upwards variations to ensure hits combo.

|*obtained with on page 3 of challenges* Haven't personally tested, but potentially allows for more consistent dancing blade hits for Marth due to tippers allowing escapes relatively easily. Does less damage though, which is probably not worth it. It's easier to use, but definitely weaker in every way, if regular dancing blade is hard to execute, then this is a fair choice in the mid term.

|A lot slower, but slightly longer range. Individual hits won't combo in between each other. If you can somehow get these hits out, then yeah, scary. But I don't think there's really any reason to use it.

| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uZWArSOmCc Still has invincibility on it, but it feels a lot less usable as an out of shield move this game. But still likely very good with multi hits on shield, beating out other things as an all in. Good damage, does have a bit of kill power on it.

|Totally changes the character, theoretically gives him amazing follow ups on nearly all of his attacks in a way that combos, however vectoring up seems to kill most of these sweetspotting, and it otherwise completely guts our recovery, I don't think it's a viable choice, although it does have interesting game play involved.

|Nearly infallible recovery. Will come back from everything, seems to have a lot of invincibility. As I mentioned at the start, allows us to go deep and always get back. A very easy choice to take before all the others just because of the recovery potency.

|1.2x damage, with a minimum of 8%. Knocks people away as you would expect. Can definitely kill.

|0.7x damage, with a minimum of 4%. Not personally used, but could actually have competitive merit depending on how "EASY" easy is. If it has almost no cooldown so we can spam it? maybe. But either way, currently a suboptimal choice as we use counter either for reads or certain option-select like scenarios (recovering), this doesn't help either much at all.

|1.4x damage, with a minimum of 6%. This move seems to be a lot stronger, but it may not be always optimal depending on the type of enemy you're against. However, makes us step forward (kinda like Shulk/Mac) and knocks opponents behind us, very very hard (as the 1.4x indicates). Counter as a move for us was always most successful as a deterrent for perusing us off stage, as we could use it's invincibility and trap to cover immediate attacks, and as we are off stage/falling and we have such a fast vertical recovery, it is almost always safe. Iai counter accentuates this usage significantly, making taking that hit off stage (or when we're backed into a corner, i.e. closer to a blast zone) so so scary. I personally enjoy this choice the most because of this, and I think that even in other situations, the drawback of them maybe flying in a non-optimal direction isn't stopping this move from otherwise being better (from what I can see).

this is just to avoid having the extra tab with all the 'attached' files. take a gander if you care to see all the above images again

Spoiler

 

[Foodies]

I don't really understand the statement of regular Counter being more aggressive than Iai Counter. Iai Counter has a very low number of active frames and it won't be covering your recovery (at least, it covers a lot less than the other 2 variations). The way you describe Iai Counter's use for offstage/falling is more suited for Easy counter. Easy counter is really bad in my opinion though, since it has what looks to be the same amount of cooldown as the other two counters (the whole move just lasts longer) - meaning if you mispredict with it your opponents have more time to grab you or charge a Smash.

I personally am probably going to be running something like 1/3, 1, 1, and 1/3 depending on the MU. I like the hitbox on DS and I'm not that great at offstage edgeguarding.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Iai Counter for covering your recovery is optimal due to its high potential to reverse gimp your opponent.

My personal load out is 3133 or 3131. I'm a huge fan of Dolphin Jump although I personally thought it would be the worst. I was so so very wrong. I like it more than all his other customs as it virtually eliminates one of his greatest weaknesses and accentuates his greatest strength.

Going for those deep edgeguards basically locks a stock out anytime your opponent is knocked off, and early stock lead is huge in this game.

 

[Shadestars]

I believe you may have underrated crescent slash. It's recovery isn't actually -that- bad, it gains an absurd amount of horizontal reach which can be used just as effectively as the default with a litte practice. Also, it seems to be a garanteed combo out of a forward throw between 0-70% and any grab release, which actually kills somewhere at 70-80% if your near the ledge, sends opponents off the edge VERY easily and you can use it to gimp high recovery really well 'cause it's so fast your opponents cant typically react with an airdodge.

You can just stand on the edge and up+b when the opponent is in range, killing around 60-80% and still grab the ledge, it's pretty damn deadly, with the recovery aspect not being as bad as it seems at all, I actually prefer the horizontal reach compared to default. Just gotta practice it a bit so you don't keep SD'ing yourself on Omega 3D land like I used to do ALL THE TIME lol

 

[Shaya]

I played horizontal dolphin slash excessively, and am aware you can use it on a stage ledge and still drift backwards without dying.
However, Marth recoveries vertically. If he doesn't have a jump, there's no coming back with crescent.

And yes, it does true combo out of a lot of things, but opponents I played against adapted to just DIing in specific ways to avoid the sweetspot of the move or any follow up at all.
I did try to summarise it with all that in mind, it adds a kill option at a low enough percent that it's crazy, but you are definitely gimping your recovery significantly.

Although it isn't killing people, dash breaker is covering the same horizontal range, doesn't gimp your recovery, is safer and can be combo'd out of. If dash breaker wasn't in the game, I'd likely consider opting for crescent because having a fast horizontal tool like this is pretty invaluable to his pressure and forcing opponent's to respect you. He has it covered with a safer/better tool.

 

[Xinc]

I feel that Nintendo took a look at the B- Marth and said, "Hm... that looks like a good idea. Let's nerf that a little bit and slap it on!"

Seriously though, I really like the properties of that custom. It allows good approach while still attacking.
I like keeping the default side b and up B.

One question though, I was under the impression that Iai brings the opponent behind you and is weaker according to the description. But Shaya, you said that the Iai deals 1.4x instead of 1.2? The description only refers to the base damage?

 

[Shaya]

Seems so, yes.
Default counter is 8% base while lai is 6%
A move needs to deal more than 6.6% to increase base counter, while Iai only needs 4.3 to break its base, or 5.7 to be better than default counter.

 

[Xinc]

Seems so, yes.
Default counter is 8% base while lai is 6%
A move needs to deal more than 6.6% to increase base counter, while Iai only needs 4.3 to break its base, or 5.7 to be better than default counter.

So in short, Iai has a slightly smaller window of countering, but has a far more rewarding counter.

Spoiler

Roy's here in spirit, I see.

 

[Random4811]

My personal loads are all default, 3111, 3113, and 1113. Dash breaker isnt a shield breaker, though. Thats my biggest beef with it. its weaker, and I prefer how I use shield breaker for my momentum driven charge attack. Its stronger, and more potent if you hit with the tip- even at low charges- against characters in shield and OoS alike.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Although I have broken some high level players shields, Dashing Assault is simply too consistent to ignore. It aids Marth across all aspects of his gameplay. It is too good not to use.

Only hopeless custom imo is Heavy Blade, but the range is enormous. The color trail extends far beyond his actual sword. The range is definitely comparable to Melee Marth range. But its stupid unsafe and his unwieldy start-up time thus killing its usefulness imo.

 

[Moydow]

"Iai Counter"
No wonder I keep getting confused whenever anyone mentions this - for reference, it's referred to as "Rush Counter" in the PAL English translation. For whatever reason, it's the only one with a different name - all the others are the same.
I really like Shield Breaker in this game, although Dashing Assault just looks too useful for approaching to overlook. Which version of UpB to use will probably depend on who your opponent is, in my opinion - you're not likely to need Dolphin Jump against Little Mac, for example. (that said, what are his custom UpBs like for recovery?)
Default Dancing Blade looks the best of those.
Don't have much of an opinion of the counters yet.

 

[Random4811]

Although I have broken some high level players shields, Dashing Assault is simply too consistent to ignore. It aids Marth across all aspects of his gameplay. It is too good not to use.

Only hopeless custom imo is Heavy Blade, but the range is enormous. The color trail extends far beyond his actual sword. The range is definitely comparable to Melee Marth range. But its stupid unsafe and his unwieldy start-up time thus killing its usefulness imo.

Dashing assault is okay, but personally shield breaker is more consistent. Even just slightly charging it leads to racking up some good damage, especially with a tipper hit, and its really good for cracking open shields and punishing characters. Its a pretty good punish option, because it seems to have higher priority than most smash attacks at the very least. Like, I was just fighting falco and he tried to do his Fsmash way too much, so I punished him by short hopping and poking him with a barely charged shield breaker.

 

[Emblem Lord]

More consistent at what? They are not made to do the same thing. SB gives Marth an option against defense. DA gives him more...uhhh everything else and aids him in every way that matters.

 

[Shaya]

Just think of the range that dash assault gives.
It's 2 of our rolls in length, or 1/3rd of final destination.
That doesn't include the amount of range the move has in it's completely horizontal stab-like state.

If a Falco is charging forward smashes at me, I can punish with a lot of things, with dash breaker I could punish them doing that from the other side of the stage, in the same amount of frames it takes for shield breaker to come out. In other words, I can be outside of their range for every single action they have, and be able to punish it all the same. If the enemy is only doing forward smash, then sure, shield breaker will suffice, as will fully charging a forward smash.

Dash Assault loses to shields but beats just about every other action in the game. Shieldbreaker is scary on shields for sure, but it still actually isn't frame safe, and can be shield drop punished by most of the cast with dash grab or dash attack, just because people on wifi always roll away from it doesn't mean it wasn't punishable.

We were always a mid range zoner who can handle CQC (close range) with his own rules well enough due to spacing, but he always prefers in neutral to be about 2-3 swords length away. Dash Assault allows us to control a mid to long range better than nearly everyone in the cast, expanding our capabilities DRAMATICALLY.

Would you take Falco's Side B in Brawl over your Side-B? Nearly everyone would say yes. Now ask me if I would choose to replace my neutral B, or shieldbreaker, a move which isn't smart to use in neutral (it's a 19 frame move, easy to react to) that isn't actually safe nor guaranteeing an advantage if it hits someone shield over Falco's Brawl Side-B...
THE ANSWER IS EXTREMELY OBVIOUS.
This move is genuinely better than Falco's Side-B in Brawl too... lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not just that but it aids all aspects of his gameplay. Better recovery, better at getting out of air traps, another ledge jump option, another option to help his own traps.

This move literally augments Marth's game across every spectrum and truly gives weight to the theory that Marth is now a ground oriented character because no one can challenge this move head on. It loses to shields and projectiles, but when used correctly neither one of those things is truly an issue. It does poor damage, but its damage isn't why it's good in the first place so this is negligible.

 

[MarioMariox2]

I understand that this is a discussion on loadouts but on the topic of customizations, I have found that even the slightest of equipment stat boosts give Marth/Lucina new tech.

With a minimum of +6 speed, you can shorthop Fair -> uair

With a minimum of +20 speed, you can shorthop double Fair.

It might not be worth noting, as I highly doubt equipment would ever make it into competitive play, but it was something interesting I found.

 

[Random4811]

More consistent at what? They are not made to do the same thing. SB gives Marth an option against defense. DA gives him more...uhhh everything else and aids him in every way that matters.

its a great option and aerial mobility tool without charging me to a clearly readable position at the edge of the battlefield. Its stronger, smaller charges do more damage and are generally safer in my experience to perform, dashing assult has a lot of active frames and no armor, and can be easily punished from every side but infront of it. If reacted to right, it can be stopped and quickly punished. An aerial shield breaker provides forward momentum for the better damage [by quite a bit at higher charge] and you can't be easily dashgrabbed or shield punished.
SB just in general does more for me. Its more damaging. It can K.O. at 70% on a ledge. It can edgeguard crazily well, heavily punishing recoveries. It can be used sort of like Jigglypuffs pound in the air, but more damaging. It is made to pray on the imperfections and forgetfulness of your human opponents- because most people try to shield block it as if its an aerial when used from above. For me, SB beats dashing assault in everything but mobility- but in terms of mobility, Marth's dash dance is a good enough option for me, because in doing it I can dash attack, dash grab, pivot ftilt, and if I stop for a frame I can Fsmash easily. It also has some good combo potential, lower charges can be used at the end of combos like a neutral dancing blade (I use it sometimes in place of the 4th hit). Its a good aerial poke option too, because it thrusts you forward slightly, so you can wait until your opponents attack is done after moving out of range, then use a low charge SB to knock them away. then you can land-> jump -> tipper fair for an easy K.O. or if they try to fast fall below you and recover you can land-> charge SB on the edge -> let go right before they hit the edge to knock them far into the blast lines and likely kill them, or lead into a dair, meaning an early K.O.
For me, Dashing assault gets stopped too much by everything. Especially counters. It moves behind counters, yes, but the amount of active frames of DA after completion leads to the counter being done before I can move, meaning I get grab punished or smashed. It does next to no damage, and literally doesnt K.O. ever. [Seriously though, I was fighting Luci who was at 160%, and it didnt even knock her far enough for the audience to gasp. She was just barely off screen. And she recovered no problem. Then I tried to edge guard with it, and I ended up flying off stage, nearly dying.] It'd be like if Falcos Side B sucked. Its slow, its easy to predict and punish, and the only thing it has going for it is that it goes far. Thats it. Which we can accomplish much safer by dash dancing or short hopping to our opponents.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are objectively incorrect.

Also who cares that it doesnt kill. Thats not its purpose. You grossly overestimate SB and you posted plain falsehoods. SB does not combo into or out of anything. Yes its weaker. I saud that already.

You posted a huge wall in order to say alot of nothing. DA is space control plain and simple. It basically invalidates his dash attack. You keep trying to make it SB when it clearly isnt.

Also SB is NOT safe on block. Not even close

 

[Random4811]

You are objectively incorrect.

Also who cares that it doesnt kill. Thats not its purpose. You grossly overestimate SB and you posted plain falsehoods. SB does not combo into or out of anything. Yes its weaker. I saud that already.

You posted a huge wall in order to say alot of nothing. DA is space control plain and simple. It basically invalidates his dash attack. You keep trying to make it SB when it clearly isnt.

Also SB is NOT safe on block. Not even close

SB actually does combo out of neutral dancing blade, fairly well. try it sometime.
SB is pretty safe on block, because unless they manage to get a perfect shield, they're worm food. DA is incredibly dangerous to use for anything but movement, and Marths dash dance gives many safer, more reliable options. Personally, like I said, DA is garbage to me. And no, I'm not objectively incorrect. One move is not vastly superior to the other. Its all about how you use it. It doesnt fit into my playstyle, it just doesnt work for me. A baby SB does lead into you being able to perform a lot of moves, and a full SB can kill at 70%. Thats pretty low for this game, getting an early stock means everything. DA literally does nothing but let you move across the stage faster. It sounds like it'd be much better for Lucina than Marth. I literally never want to suddenly be on the other side of the stage as Marth. It ruins any spacing that I was setting up, and leaves me crazy open for a good chunk of the cast to have their way with me. I mean, if a Bowser is near the edge and shields against DA, I'm Bowsercide bait.
Really, a move is only as good as the use I can get out of it. When I can get crazy amounts of use out of SB and little to no use out of DA, I might as well stick with what I can use, right? Just because you can use something doesnt mean I can. It really boils down to that. I never said any of what I was saying was solid evidence. I specifically said in my experience.
Also, it seems to me that we're comparing fully charging SB to fully charging DA. Because baby SB's don't take very long to dish out. They're pretty good for poking, and wonderful for edge guarding at the very least. In my experience with DA, its only good for moving. Again, its nothing special when I can dash dance much more safely across the screen, and have more options at my disposal with the ability to properly space myself. When I use DA, it seems like the opponent can always close the gap between us too quickly for my liking if I'm dashing away from them, and they always seem to be able to punish me pretty consistently if I'm dashing into them. So, let me ask you this: How are you using DA to be getting this idea that it is so vastly superior to SB?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I dont think you know what a combo is.

I also don't think you know what safe on block is.

With that said, i wont continue debating you. Its clear you lack some understanding about what you are saying.

 

[Random4811]

I dont think you know what a combo is.

I also don't think you know what safe on block is.

With that said, i wont continue debating you. Its clear you lack some understanding about what you are saying.

The difference between a combo and an attack string, to me, is semantical at best. Yes, I realize attack strings arent air tight and arent as safe as combos. But they're close enough to the same thing, and combo is much shorter to type. Its like, In this iteration, there isnt a true Ken Combo. There is a Ken "attack string", though. Performs the same basic function, but it isnt the same thing.

What is safe to one person isnt the same as what is safe to another. That one is truly objective. SH SB's are relatively safe on block, because you're assuming your opponent isn't a machine, and they will make mistakes. I've had far less punishes in the hundreds of games I've played from people blocking shield breaker than I have from people blocking DA.

and also, I am legitimately interested in what you have to say on this: How are you using DA to be getting this idea that it is so vastly superior to SB? I really want to know in what way you are using DA to make it so good, as you say.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Safe is defined by numbers. Make no mistake about that. I will post more later

 

[Random4811]

Safe is defined by numbers. Make no mistake about that. I will post more later

Safe is a relative term, its not something that numbers should be used to define, because the concept of safe in it of itself is relative.

 

[Jeos]

Safe is a relative term, its not something that numbers should be used to define, because the concept of safe in it of itself is relative.

Um no, a move is safe because an opponent can't punish you, ex. if you hit a tipper Fair on a shield, you have to count shield stun, shield hit lag, air time and landing lag. So using brawl Marth's frame data, it's like:

Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -28 (including air time)
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8 (since it's FF'd you don't include air time)

the advantage means how much frames of advantage to move you have after your move, since the number is negative, that means that your opponent has 28 frames to punish you (without FF), wich is HUGE (half a second) so that means IS NOT SAFE. If you FF, your opponent has 8 frames to punish you, but since it's tippered, the range doesn't allow any move to work on Marth because you're out of range of grabs (tether grabs are slower) and a DS OoS doesn't reach you wich is the fastest move OoS, making it SAFE.

So deal with it, a safe move is a fact, is not something relative, because IN THIS GAME, the concept of safety IS a matter of numbers.

 

[Shaya]

Yes, safety is relative to the cast/opponents. Some characters cannot punish certain things while others cannot.

But, otherwise, no. When we're talking safety, we're talking the ability to use a move properly and not get punished by anyone.
Retreating and rising forward air, down tilt and jab take a lot of work for an opponent to punish, and that's because they're reading our actions AFTER those, not because they're punishing those moves proper; it's because THEY'RE SAFE.

Now, dash breaker, with it's massive range, hitting at the same frame as shield breaker, means that it's a lot more likely to combo out of your moves (in fact, I "combo" into dash assault all the ****ing time with forward air, down tilt, ftilt, dancing blade) but all those means send way too far for an immediate shield breaker to ever do anything at all.

Anything you've said about shield breaker as being better doesn't make any sense, dash assault does all those things but better.
Yes it doesn't kill.
But it doesn't need to. We have many many kill options.
It drags you and your opponent towards the edge of the stage with a frame advantage to you every time you hit with it. At medium percent, dash assault combos into every move you have because you still find yourself on top of them/within follow up range after the attack sends them far.
Marth destroys people trying to recover and get off the ledge with near impunity. A set up move that forces opponents into that situation is infinitely more useful than a 19 frame kill move if it tippers that is otherwise only good as a hard read shield punish.

Dash assault has hitboxes above and below him, it only loses to projectiles. It has transcended priority, meaning it won't clash with any attack.

Anyway, I feel there's enough information out there that having us repeat ourselves over and over again just to break through your comprehension barrier is infuriating. Do some ****ing research and stop being lazy, arguing semantics of specific words (a noticeable sign someone hasn't done critical thinking in high school) or just ignoring everything to spout things we've told you are wrong is a waste of ours and your time.

It's not wrong for you to prefer Shield breaker, it's a move with a much higher reward, but with significantly less usability / higher risk. However, in competitive play, lower risk / medium reward is almost always preferred. I think the ability to punish any opponent's lag from 1/3rd of FD away to vastly improve all of our capabilities, and Shield breaker has literally nothing on that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Basically for me Dash Breaker immediately puts an opponent in a trap situation when used correctly. Shield Breaker only does this at higher percents and you need to condition your opponent to block. Not saying I havent broken shields. I have. I broke high level players shields in brawl too. But Dash Breaker is simply too consistent and too useful in various ways to say SB is it's equal.

And yeah since you are actually arguing the meaning of the word safe, its pretty clear that you lack knowledge on some subjects which is fine.

We are all here to learn and grow with one another.

 

[Kinslayer]

Um no, a move is safe because an opponent can't punish you, ex. if you hit a tipper Fair on a shield, you have to count shield stun, shield hit lag, air time and landing lag. So using brawl Marth's frame data, it's like:

Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -28 (including air time)
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8 (since it's FF'd you don't include air time)

the advantage means how much frames of advantage to move you have after your move, since the number is negative, that means that your opponent has 28 frames to punish you (without FF), wich is HUGE (half a second) so that means IS NOT SAFE. If you FF, your opponent has 8 frames to punish you, but since it's tippered, the range doesn't allow any move to work on Marth because you're out of range of grabs (tether grabs are slower) and a DS OoS doesn't reach you wich is the fastest move OoS, making it SAFE.

So deal with it, a safe move is a fact, is not something relative, because IN THIS GAME, the concept of safety IS a matter of numbers.

In all games saftey is a matter of numbers because something's are always safe (things with 0 or + frames) however somethings are only safe in some match ups.

For example some things I do vs donkey kong I can't do vs sonic because of sonic's faster movement speed and priority.

It is a numbers game to an extent, but more goes into it than that such as spacing, start up, recovery, and timing (look up the term meaty in fighting games e terms). The numbers go both ways and by this I mean defensive (reactive player) and offensive (initiator/attacker)
numbers both matter when determining if something is safe. These things are what make each match up different.

In King Of Fighters for a more technical example.

Hwa Jai's 214+b can be as low as negative -1 on block (depends on how many hits if the Dragon Tail land). -1 isn't truly safe because all throws in then game are 1 frame but you can ALWAYS TECH IN KOF. So say he does this move to kyo and kyo blocks it, hwa is -1 on block and kyo has no 0or 1 frame moves so he can't punish it. In that match up a properly spaced dragon tail can't be punished on block. He can however punish it before it connects with him because kyo has an invincible dp he can hit it with, neo max, or a level 2 super. Let's focus about on block though.
So hwa can try the same thing in Clark still, but Clark has a move that starts up in exactly 1 frame and that is his C command grab. So, hwa's dragon tail is unsafe on block vs Clark but it is safe vs kyo.

 

[Shaya]

In this game I doubt there are many true frame advantages, it's just there are certain factors that make things safe:
7 frame shield drop for every action other than:
Jumping, Up Smash, Grab, Up B. Most characters jumps are around 5 frames start up, still need to use an aerial. The rest of those options are usually relatively easy to space around. This is what people tend to consider "safety" in Smash, if you land right in front of someone's face, there really are not too many scenarios you aren't liable to get grabbed.

In other words, safety in this game is usually someone who has a move that's around -10 on shield. This was the case for most of the good characters in Brawl. Marth was like one of three characters in the game with up to -3 on block for fast fallen aerials (super ****ing crazy). A few characters had true positive frame advantages, but only on auto cancelled aerials (Peach's entire arsenal, Marth's neutral air) and some projectiles (technically ZSS' dsmash was a projectile ).

Marth's fair in this game is around -21 to -25 on block from a full hop. He's still basically safe due to the amount of aerial mobility he has that allows him to retreat considerably, and the shield push from the tippers. A perfectly fast fallen fair can be up to -13 or so on block in this. But that's placing you right in front of someone's face.
Now a character like Sonic, Fox or Falcon, due to their amazing ground speed can likely easily cover the space required to negate that "spacing advantage" if they power shield (parrying). That negates the shield drop lag, hence allowing a lot more punishment options.

 

[Kinslayer]

In this game I doubt there are many true frame advantages, it's just there are certain factors that make things safe:
7 frame shield drop for every action other than:
Jumping, Up Smash, Grab, Up B. Most characters jumps are around 5 frames start up, still need to use an aerial. The rest of those options are usually relatively easy to space around. This is what people tend to consider "safety" in Smash, if you land right in front of someone's face, there really are not too many scenarios you aren't liable to get grabbed.

In other words, safety in this game is usually someone who has a move that's around -10 on shield. This was the case for most of the good characters in Brawl. Marth was like one of three characters in the game with up to -3 on block for fast fallen aerials (super ****ing crazy). A few characters had true positive frame advantages, but only on auto cancelled aerials (Peach's entire arsenal, Marth's neutral air) and some projectiles (technically ZSS' dsmash was a projectile ).

Marth's fair in this game is around -21 to -25 on block from a full hop. He's still basically safe due to the amount of aerial mobility he has that allows him to retreat considerably, and the shield push from the tippers. A perfectly fast fallen fair can be up to -13 or so on block in this. But that's placing you right in front of someone's face.
Now a character like Sonic, Fox or Falcon, due to their amazing ground speed can likely easily cover the space required to negate that "spacing advantage" if they power shield (parrying). That negates the shield drop lag, hence allowing a lot more punishment options.

Trust me I'm aware, however Im trying i get him to understand how punishment and frame data are relative to the match ups and not set in stone.

 

[Wraeith]

I understand that this is a discussion on loadouts but on the topic of customizations, I have found that even the slightest of equipment stat boosts give Marth/Lucina new tech.

With a minimum of +6 speed, you can shorthop Fair -> uair

With a minimum of +20 speed, you can shorthop double Fair.

It might not be worth noting, as I highly doubt equipment would ever make it into competitive play, but it was something interesting I found.

That's actually very interesting, I wasn't aware such an important option would be enabled by a that insiginificant of a number. If equipment does somehow manage to make its way into competitive, we can all pray +7 Speed -7 Defense Smooth Lander, Hard Braker, and Dodgy Dodger becomes the required standard set. This would also help the speed of the game quite a bit, allowing for earlier kills and faster gameplay. Hopefully a few early tournaments try to experiment with this as it might resolve the issues Smash 4 has currently, also totally not biased at all.

 

[Random4811]

Basically for me Dash Breaker immediately puts an opponent in a trap situation when used correctly. Shield Breaker only does this at higher percents and you need to condition your opponent to block. Not saying I havent broken shields. I have. I broke high level players shields in brawl too. But Dash Breaker is simply too consistent and too useful in various ways to say SB is it's equal.

And yeah since you are actually arguing the meaning of the word safe, its pretty clear that you lack knowledge on some subjects which is fine.

We are all here to learn and grow with one another.

I'll agree with you that DA can be used to force opponents into traps much easier than SB. I'll disagree that SB only does so at high percentages, and its usefulness extends past shields depending on how you use it. Its a valuable tool to use when coming back from the ledge, because when you start charging it near the ledge, most players go for a fsmash, usmash, or shield. You let it go right as you get in range of their hitbox, and you'll out prioritize their smash, and also do very good amounts of damage and KB. Aside from that, the momentum from a fully charged aerial SB will surprise most opponents and unless blocked pretty perfectly, will land some crazy damage (24% on tipper) and a possible shield break, or even a K.O..

I can understand where you are coming from with DA, but I just prefer SB significantly more.

 

[Shaya]

Fully charged aerial SB won't be surprising opponents for long (i.e. in tournament). It isn't very good. Very much a "free hit" for any one who's seen it more than once or twice.

But a thing about fully charged shieldbreaker, is that just like dash assault, I assume there's an extra hitbox at the end that extends the range quite a bit? (haven't sat down to test but spotted it in passing)

 

[Random4811]

Fully charged aerial SB won't be surprising opponents for long (i.e. in tournament). It isn't very good. Very much a "free hit" for any one who's seen it more than once or twice.

But a thing about fully charged shieldbreaker, is that just like dash assault, I assume there's an extra hitbox at the end that extends the range quite a bit? (haven't sat down to test but spotted it in passing)

Yes, Its not something you can overuse, but in the heat of a match at high percentages, it can surprise good players, especially if you havent used it in a while. (sort of like if you don't counter all game until the end when you are both at high percents, leading to an easy kill off sides.) Its the type of move meant to prey specifically on human error. A lot of strategies involve assuming your opponent is perfect, and this just isn't one of them. I did manage to use it successfully in a twitch tourney a couple of times. (Managed to make it to round 3 before being eliminated, would have atleast gone Semifinals if it wasnt for fighting an absolutely terrifying Bowser and known bowsercider with the custom Side B that turns it into a grab.)

I believe it works the same, yes, but I'm not 100% certain. I imagine it does, because I imagine they took the code from that as a basis for DA, but of course that is just an assumption.

 

[Shaya]

What one can achieve in lag is always going to be different, but I really really cannot stress how obvious it is to your opponent what could possibly happen if you're going to use the momentum boost of a fully charged shieldbreaker (which takes around a second and a half to come out) to "surprise" people at that range in which it goes.
Any fast character can be at around the position at which a fully charged shieldbreaker would propel you towards for a free punish, while also covering you releasing the charge early by just dashing in with a grab, up smash or up air.

Counter on the other hand comes out in 5 frames, while it can be obvious, it's at the very least a fast option.

 

[Random4811]

What one can achieve in lag is always going to be different, but I really really cannot stress how obvious it is to your opponent what could possibly happen if you're going to use the momentum boost of a fully charged shieldbreaker (which takes around a second and a half to come out) to "surprise" people at that range in which it goes.
Any fast character can be at around the position at which a fully charged shieldbreaker would propel you towards for a free punish, while also covering you releasing the charge early by just dashing in with a grab, up smash or up air.

Counter on the other hand comes out in 5 frames, while it can be obvious, it's at the very least a fast option.

I agree its not a reliable tactic by any means, but its an option. When used at the right time from the right place, it can be a game changer. Its very predictible, but its banking on the fact that your opponent is human, the natural response to things is a shield, and you'll get them before they realize the error of their ways. (which is literally what happened in the tournament. they remembered shield breakers namesake qualities too late, and got punished hard for it.)

 

[Shaya]

I've been playing Marth in tournament for a very long time, the amount of shieldbreaks I've had in tournament probably number less than 10, you know what beats a shieldbreaker coming towards you? Rolling, spot dodging, or power shielding it, which negates the shield damage completely. On wifi I'm getting shield breaks all the time because people aren't reacting properly to the move, and also you're forced to hold shield for longer this game. At the level in which I played in both Brawl and Melee, power shielding is essential and the techniques for getting them are not as reliant on reaction speed as you would think.

The move is the same start up as in Brawl, and gave shield breaks in similar scenarios (its been buffed in other ways mostly; like the really short animation on it's charge release I think). It's a use, I'm not denying it exists, I'm just saying from personal experience that it'll cost you matches.

 

[Kinslayer]

Fully charged aerial SB won't be surprising opponents for long (i.e. in tournament). It isn't very good. Very much a "free hit" for any one who's seen it more than once or twice.

But a thing about fully charged shieldbreaker, is that just like dash assault, I assume there's an extra hitbox at the end that extends the range quite a bit? (haven't sat down to test but spotted it in passing)

My thing about shield breaker is it gives us more damage, is the farthest reaching move we have, and it must be dodged if charged even slightly because it will break shields. Now don't get me wrong DA is Awesome for punishes, recovery, and putting the fear of God into people who like to roll but it doesn't scare people to stop shielding. Shield breaker even if it doesn't land tell people you are willing to do it. You are willing to do the turn around bait shield breaker so no where around you is particularly safe. It makes them want to dodge roll which them opens up for down smash punishes, dancing blade punishes, turn around tilt/smash punishes, and etc.

Any single move that changes how someone plays simply because it exist is a move worth using and keeping. Shield breaker is that move for me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Any move that gets me closer to my characters actual win condition is the move for me. Screw being scared. Them being scared is meaningless. DA acts as a bridge for Marth's entire gameplan. SB does not do that. SB, as much better as it is compared to Melee, will never be a cornerstone of Marth's gameplay due to certain limitations. DA however, due to it's ground dominance and how it lends itself well to Marths overall gameplan, is a too powerful an addition to ignore.

As opponents get more and more used to SB they will simply roll out of the way and punish. Much harder to do that to DA since it rushes forward and past the opponent.

 

[Kinslayer]

Any move that gets me closer to my characters actual win condition is the move for me. Screw being scared. Them being scared is meaningless. DA acts as a bridge for Marth's entire gameplan. SB does not do that. SB, as much better as it is compared to Melee, will never be a cornerstone of Marth's gameplay due to certain limitations. DA however, due to it's ground dominance and how it lends itself well to Marths overall gameplan, is a too powerful an addition to ignore.

As opponents get more and more used to SB they will simply roll out of the way and punish. Much harder to do that to DA since it rushes forward and past the opponent.

Dashing assault They just kinda spot dodge and punish, shield and punish, jump back punish, etc.
That dashing past people crap will work only until learn the distance a certain amount of charge time will push Marth.

People are making it seem as if this move is the end all be all when it isn't. The primary purpose of dashing assault isn't what a lot of people think it is. Dashing assault is a punish tool not really a hyper offensive one. It leaves us far to open to just stick it out as if it is some God move. Emblem lord DA would be the better option in my mind if shield stun wasn't able to be acted out of so quickly.

Also for someone to say "scaring an opponent into changing their playstyle/options they use doesn't matter," sounds like someone who doesn't understand the intricacies of fighting games. Making someone overly respect an option or making them afraid of something so much so they completely give up on a move/strategy is what high level players do all the time. In fact some options are important to try to eliminate early on. I play high level King of fighters (tournaments etc) if I can get you to give up sayyy blocking low because i just run up throw you now I can hit you with run up lows because you can't touch tech in kof. Say you knock me down and I dp on wake up and you block it. I may have been punish, but at least now you know I'm willing to stick it out in that situation so now you have to give me room on my wake up or possibly eat a dp that can lead to a 40% or higher combo. Sometimes the threat of an option is good enough to open up other better options.

Example of that is balrog vs Ryu in SF

That match up is in ryu's favor up until the point where balrog gets his super meter full. With full super meter ryu can't really chuck hados, stick out random footsies, and over all is forced to i change his game plan which in turn makes balrog have more offensive options and opens up an easier approach.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Rogs super in ST is the best super in the game, has incredible damage, can be comboed into, can blow through virtually any attack save for dragon punches, and is SAFE ON BLOCK.

Did you really compare one of the greatest supers in fighting game history to an attack that has almost 20 frame start-up and is completely unsafe and nowhere near on the level of game changing as the former?

Tell me you didn't.

BTW SB and DA both have horrible shield stun. Neither is truly safe. DA is overall safer thanks to moving away from your opponent.