Adaption ~ Stage Discussion [Halberd] Updated - 12/09/10

[Zhamy]

Yo. I summarized YI above. Someone put it in the OP.

 

[KillerJawz]

Sorry I've been away and didn't even notice that post. I'll put it on there after I've finished doing some other updates.

We are now discussing Castle Siege.

 

[Dakrah]

I think Castle Siege is a bit weird for Fox, and to talk about it, we need to break it down into three stages.

The first part of the stage is small, not flat, and has two very low platforms. While the platforms aren't so bad, this stage, in general, accomplishes two things: 1) it nerfs Fox's camping game (no real laser game and nowhere to escape to) and 2) it helps characters with a strong zoning game shine, i.e. Marth.

One would think the flatness of the next part of the stage would be of some more help, but it isn't. First of all, you have those two giant statues that need to be destroyed before you can force any approaches through your laser game. HOWEVER, these statues can be lasered like hell in order to replenish your moveset, which is a nice consideration. If they are destroyed, you can officially camp your opponent and force approaches on a pretty big stage and have a lot of space to work with. Fox's speed can shine here in both his camping game and his approach game, as opposed to the previous part of the stage.

The last part of the stage is mostly like FD except for the constant tilting of the stage, which can mess with your laser game. Otherwise, this part can be treated much like FD, thus making this a pretty good part of the stage for Fox.

 

[Zephil]

I agree with the post above... CS is not a good stage for fox in general but is also not bad.

The first stage reduces Fox's camping game but is not impossible and you can kill faster but also you can die faster.

Second stage sucks hard because of the stupid statues that destroys fox camping game, most of the time I just keep running waiting for the stage to change.

The third stage is FD practically so is great for Fox only that with some issues on the recovery section because is like recovering in Lylat because the stage tilts from one side to the other

 

[Kuares]

I love reviving dead threads.

At the smashfest, I played a fair bit more CS than usual. Every 45 seconds or so the stage starts loading the next part of the level. Knowing that I can just laser the statues on the second part, I used Upsmash and Dsmash whenever I could. Then on the second part neither me nor my opponent wanted to move. If he did approach I could just escape to the platforms(flags?) that are easily in Fox's jump height. Then nothing too special about the third stage.

Quick something about Yoshi's Island(I guess it's any place with a wall of the side), a neat trick I've done twice now is to wall shine against the side of the stage. Basically Fox falls slowly enough to keeps floaties pinned to the wall(I dunno if it works on faster fallers or if they can tech). I need to get it on video and show it. It's situational like crazy but hey!

 

[luke_atyeo]

given that you are moving downwards, wouldnt someone with decent sdi be able to escape?
if not thats kinda cool.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

I love reviving dead threads.


Quick something about Yoshi's Island(I guess it's any place with a wall of the side), a neat trick I've done twice now is to wall shine against the side of the stage. Basically Fox falls slowly enough to keeps floaties pinned to the wall(I dunno if it works on faster fallers or if they can tech). I need to get it on video and show it. It's situational like crazy but hey!

yup, that works quite well against most character.

 

[KillerJawz]

Castle Siege has been added. We are now discussing Halberd.

 

[luke_atyeo]

hal's bread is a great stage, in a nutshell- early kills, platform works well in our favor, all the usual things that make a stage good, but the downside is the ledge, which can **** up your side B recovery, so because of that I'd much rather battlefield.

still, its a great faux level.

 

[M@v]

Anyone who knows me knows I've been this stages biggest advocate since the old days. This is fox's best stage. Anyone who sees me play in tourney knows I always cp here when I'm going fox. In my most recent tourney(also my first one back maining fox), I cp'd halberd every time I went fox, beat Coney here(although he won the set and tournament), and almost beat logic here. There are so many good things about this stage for fox I don't know where to begin. The only time this may not be fox's best choice is vs snake, since this is also one of his best stages for similar reasons to fox. I guess I'll break it down by phases.

Phase 1:

Although this is the weaker part of the stage, there are many things to take advantage of.

-Staying in the lower part makes it safer to camp
-Easier aerials to top platform
-Super early kill percents here, including fair kills
-can drop off stage and attack through the bottom

Vs characters like mk and rob, you need to be careful here because they actually have a slight advantage on the first part. You can still utilize your early kill potential and camping abilities to hold them off until phase 2.

Also, watch out for side b glitching through the stage and dying, similar to delfino. Make sure not to hit the ledge too low to prevent this.

Phase 2. Image FD, + a battlefield platform, and a low as hell ceiling. Thats what this is. All you could ever ask for as fox.

-Easy camping
-Stupid early kills
-Platform to help with recovery
-Fox's speed makes it really easy to avoid halberd weapons. and the energy cannon is easily manipulated due to fox's speed.

the beauty of this stage is besides all of fox's good things here, it entertains both aggressive and campy playstyles. Both will work here. Any questions about this stage, including mu specific, ask away. Like I said, this is fox's best stage and I'll be standing by that statement.

 

[Hanzhou]

I wouldnt say this stage is bad verse snake. I have played jbandrew's snake here enough times. It's still about even as it on a neutral just be careful.

 

[M@v]

Its not bad vs snake. You just don't get the advantages you do vs other characters.

 

[Kuares]

Bump, so Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium 1 are pretty meh in the concern to Fox. So I'd like to discuss Brinstar.

I love combo'ing with the acid, and the close edges and low ceiling are cool too. The inclines make for sliding all over the place. The tendons on the side platforms are also neat to Drill.

What isn't there to like about this stage?

 

[Airborne]

Bump, so Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium 1 are pretty meh in the concern to Fox. So I'd like to discuss Brinstar.

I love combo'ing with the acid, and the close edges and low ceiling are cool too. The inclines make for sliding all over the place. The tendons on the side platforms are also neat to Drill.

What isn't there to like about this stage?

Pocket Metaknight; it's the reason why I stopped playing the stage in general. =\ I love the stage to death, especially with Yoshi and his mobility, but I honestly just can't think about fighting on the stage with pocket Metaknight being in the picture.

My opinion about the stage is now going to be through past experience on the stage as Yoshi and just brainstorming on paper:

Fox seems like he's able to control the center of the stage purdy well, and he can unstale his Usmash by hitting the tentacles/bubbles.

However, he's unable to shark like a few characters are able to, putting him at quite the disadvantage on the ledge. I also feel like this stage would f*ck with Fox's illusion like similar stages do to spacies.

Also, even though fox can kill WAY earlier than others on this stage, he's also going to die WAY earlier, especially with his light weight. Then again, he's prone to die early in most situations anyways. =\

The right side of the stage is a great place for drawing out hitboxes, seeing as that most moves in this game can cover both the bubbles and the tentacles. I'm not quite sure what moves out of Fox's arsenal would be most useful for drawing out his hitboxes, but my guess would be that bair, dsmash, and usmash can prove to be very devastating here.

There's my 3 cents. 2's outta style.

 

[Kuares]

I have yet to play a good metaknight here. I heard Nakat likes this stage even against Metaknight. I also know from experience, double mk's suck fighting against here.

Dair and shine are really helped by the extended hitboxes the other's are helped only slightly. Usually only electric attacks are helped a ton, things like Ness' PKT2, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon's Knee you got to really watch out for.

Fox is fast enough to follow up a lot of things after an opponent gets hit by acid. Fair can kill because of the low ceiling.

Sometimes if the acid is in high tide you can get saved from Horizontal knockback.

 

[NAKAT]

Brinstar is amazing. That is all.

 

[Airborne]

Brinstar is amazing. That is all.

... I love you. How do you manage to fight Metaknight there though?

 

[Exceladon City]

... I love you. How do you manage to fight Metaknight there though?

I would imagine fighting MK there makes SL's mad obvious. Plus Fox doesn't get super gayed by nado because he can just jump the **** out.

TL;DR MK becomes mad obvious and obvious **** gets destroyed.

 

[NAKAT]

... I love you. How do you manage to fight Metaknight there though?

Lets see....

Pros:

-Low Ceilings (Makes Dsmash really useful and a kill move)
-The Meat (extended hitboxes)
- Lava (Yes it can be a good thing, it forces MK to move to a higher platform so it's easier to pressure him with lasers and possibly star KO him if you get next to him. It also sets up fair combo's lol.)
-Weird platforms
- If you airdodge MK's shuttle loops it's easier to punish him because the stage is so small or he may get hit by lava.

Cons:

-Lava can also get you killed.
-The low ceiling can get you killed by shuttle loop early.
- DO NOT side B on to the edge, it is very hard to do because one you can go right through the stage and lose a stock like I did once. Side B above the edge, Fox copter, or just up B.
- MK will shark you (we can beat that -_-.)


I am waiting to get taken to RC.

 

[Kuares]

Real quick, who should and shouldn't Fox take to this stage?

-Metaknight, you might get CP'd here depending on if the MK is just going off the stereotype or you banned RC.
-Falco, most of Fox's common CP's are just as good for Falco. This stage hurts his recovery and camping game while still being good for Fox.
-Pikachu, if anything Pikachu can be played against without making mistakes for less time because of killing being easier. That and there's an alternative source of damage so you can get to non-CG percents.

-Ness, this is his CP. Extended hitbox's are killer. Close edges make for easy killing with Bthrow.

-Snake, the Snake main ban'd this against me : (
-Wario, can he air camp all day?

 

[GUARD]

Ill speek of what the topic name still says....Halberd.

as previously mentioned, the above platform is great for Fox, but mostly when the moving stage lands on the Halberd ship.

However, I really REALLY don't see this as Fox's best stage. When compared to a stage like Japes... Fox dies MUCH earlier on Halberd and it's a real pain to kill Fox on Japes. Fox Kills people VERY early whether the ceiling is huge or not.

That being said, Fox is good on Halberd, but I would not overestimate Fox there.

On Halberd, Fox's AMAZING momentum cancel sometimes feels completely useless because of the super low ceiling.

I used to CP this stage all the time but not anymore. I find Fox has WAAYYYY better stages.

 

[Rizk18]

Bump it up.

Edit:

Ill speek of what the topic name still says....Halberd.

as previously mentioned, the above platform is great for Fox, but mostly when the moving stage lands on the Halberd ship.

However, I really REALLY don't see this as Fox's best stage. When compared to a stage like Japes... Fox dies MUCH earlier on Halberd and it's a real pain to kill Fox on Japes. Fox Kills people VERY early whether the ceiling is huge or not.

That being said, Fox is good on Halberd, but I would not overestimate Fox there.

On Halberd, Fox's AMAZING momentum cancel sometimes feels completely useless because of the super low ceiling.

I used to CP this stage all the time but not anymore. I find Fox has WAAYYYY better stages.

The problem is that Fox is so light that halberd can work against him really good as well. MK up-b, Snake u-tilt, Luigi in general, etc. If Fox was at least mid-weight, it would help us alot more.