About Brawl's leaks and future SSB4 leaks...

[Curious Villager]

People questioned Ness because of the whole "Up until now" debacle that arose when Sakurai was discussing Lucas's moveset.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Well Ness in that matter was among the first 12 Originals... BUT Sakurai Intended to cut Ness from Melee in favor of Lucas, but it was too far in devolopment to change it (Heard it on "Did You Know Gaming" which only is based on facts)

Well yeah, Lucas was planned to replace Ness, but the problem was that Lucas' game, EarthBound 64, was cancelled. And the cancelation was announced almost a year before Melee's release, so it wasn't "too far in development to change."

I don't think Ness was ever in risk of being cut in Brawl, maybe I just think like that because I'm a huge Mother fan.

People questioned Ness because of the whole "Up until now" debacle that arose when Sakurai was discussing Lucas's moveset.

Oh right, I remember that.

 

[Neanderthal]

The Pac-Man rumor has been debunked a while. Sakurai himself said Mega-Man is a special case.

How is it that you interpret Sakurai saying Megaman is a special case as debunking Pac Man?
You have very selective hearing.
Pac may be a special case too. He in no way said there won't be any more third parties. In fact if there weren't going to be any more there's a good chance he would have said so.

Know, it pretty much ios false. Here are the issues

1. He never had a source until after the game was shown which is suspicious to say the least. All the other leakers up their *** on the line. It's not suspicious at all. He didn't want to lose credibility on what he thought was probably a bad source to begin with. Can you blame him for doubting the source when it told him ridiculous characters like the Wii Fit trainer?
2. The leakers had actual information on what characters could do and other things in the game. This guy has a few characters and nothing more (not even info on what they can do). This makes it seems like a guess. He was only told characters by the source. Not moves.
3. The rumor specifically said the characters were to be shown at E3. You want to believe it's just semantics, but it's a pretty big deal. At the very least, it brings everything into question. I can agree that it brings it into question. But getting one small detail wrong which could have been changed or misunderstood does not compare to the unlikelihood of guessing what he said. No logical unbiased person would consider it entirely debunked based on this.
4. Sakurai has come out and said Mega Man is a special case and not to expect more third party characters. He has even said Namco characters don't get any special treatment. This makes Pac-Man unlikely. He did not say there won't be any more third parties and this does not rule out Pac.

First, developers don't matter. We do. Is that right? Past data shows this to be incorrect.

Second, you don't get it. Snake was the first third party character and was meant to be the only one. Sonic and Megaman were added because they were the most wanted characters. You're making up things to win an argument. You couldn't possibly know this.

The reason the popularity matters is adding Pac-Man will ruin the integrity of the game. Is that right? Did Snake ruin the integrity of Brawl?
Mega Man is a very popular character character, but most fans do not care about Pac-Man (most gamer don't. Pac-Man hasn't been relevant for 20 years). Not true. Firstly there's plenty of support for Pac on the boards. Secondly, the casual side of gaming not heard on internet forums tend to be bigger fans of well known icons like Pac Man.

Lastly, Pac-Man has just as much history with a pizza parlor in the 80s than he does with Nintendo. See Snake. In the current console gaming market Pac is only affiliated with Nintendo rather than its competitors.

 

[SmashChu]

I guess if he specifically said that Namco wont be getting any special treatment his chances are shot. I know what you mean about PSASBR. However, I was content with Sweet Tooth. I was a huge Twisted Metal fan. Anyways... R.O.B... fun? I despise that little robot more than you could ever know. If I had the choice to cut one character it would be him. I know where you are coming from though. I am sure Sakurai will take it easy on the third party characters. I just think out of all of the possible third party characters Pacman would not only not be a bad choice. He would also be pretty easy to add seeing as it is being co-developed. He also looks easy enough to animate. I mean he is just a ball.

First, sorry if I've been argumentative.

With PSBAS, they would have been better off with no third party characters. It is their first game and Sony has made a ton of games. I think the developers though "Oh hey, everyone loves these characters, they will work great in our game." They ended up adding 4 outside characters and 1 though DLC. In the end, the characters feel forced. No one really get excited for any of them even with Tekken being a long time Sony game. So Sweet Tooth is good. Drake is good. Spike is good. Sir Danial is good. Issac. Not so much. Fans may have been more excited for Tomba or Legend of Dragoon characters. They don't feel forced. This is why you can do characters like Ice Climbers, WFT and ROB. You run the Nintendo gambit. When you add too many outside characters, it feels forced and not that interesting. Fans would have yawned has they shown off Megaman, Bayonetta and Pac-Man. It would not be Smash.

Megaman works because fans say it's OK. This is why people requested him. So Megaman being in is not an issue. But fans don't support Pac-Man which is a signal that they do not think it is OK for him to be in Smash. Lastly, people have to understand this: This is a Nintendo All-Star game and third party characters are going to be more heavily scrutinized and play by different rules.

I know lots of people have requests and their own ideas about third-party characters that would work, but I want people to understand that adding a third-party character like Mega Man is a very special situation"

 

[SmashChu]

Double post.

Honestly Neanderthal, I'm not sure how you don't get it after all of this time. I feel like you want the rumor to be real more than anything.

It's not suspicious at all. He didn't want to lose credibility on what he thought was probably a bad source to begin with. Can you blame him for doubting the source when it told him ridiculous characters like the Wii Fit trainer?

Go to a new site and you'll probably see "RUMOR: X and Y in new Smash." Site do this all the damn time. So there is no issue with "Oh I didn't trust the source." Just say you don't know the validity of the source. It's pretty sketchy when he makes a good prediction and says "OH LOOK, I had a source the whole time. I didn;t make it up. What? Why didn't I post it before which would have given documented evidence of my information. Because I didn't trust the source. You say new sites do this all the time? Well, clearly I had INTEGRITY where all these much larger and more fequented sites do not. I'm special." You must also be very gullibal Neanderthal.

He was only told characters by the source. Not moves.

Go look at other leaks, even the one in this thread. They don't just arbitraily give characters but other facts as well. Take a look at this one which turned out to be true

http://gamerant.com/marvel-vs-capcom-3-twitter-leaks-dyce-57636/

See how he says far more than just characters. This is because he actually knew something. The NeoGAF doesn't know more than you and I. Was there an actual leak, he would have had more information probably including what they could do. This guy just posted six names. Leaks post other information to give them validity when proven right. As I said above, he never had a source till after the fact which is suspicious (why not just post it before). Then he has no new info. You'd think, if this guy knew what characters were going to be shown, he would have known something else like an attack. This shows he knew nothing and is running with a lucky guess.

I can agree that it brings it into question. But getting one small detail wrong which could have been changed or misunderstood does not compare to the unlikelihood of guessing what he said. No logical unbiased person would consider it entirely debunked based on this.

If you had inside information about the characters, you'd figure you'd at least know the right name the game is using. Please show me a leak where they got the names wrong.

He did not say there won't be any more third parties and this does not rule out Pac.

But it strongly suggest it wont happen.

OK, big picture. The guy got lucky and made it a "I got inside info." You see, had he actually gotten a leak, he would have probably gotten real information. Leaks don't show just characters but multiple elements from the game. Example: The guy that leaked stuff for Super Street Fighter 4 also knew the name of Dhalsim's move. A leaker for Brawl described the Dragoon. The leaker could had said "The 3DS characters have black outlines. Megaman uses the metal blade and crash bomb. Those are hard to guess. And had this leaker knew the reveal, he could describe what happen and what is shown off (like stages, character moves, look, ect). This would because a leaker would know these kinds of things because he knew some info. Take the Brawl leak. These came from testers or people who knew testers so they would have seen a good amount of content. They would have known stuff about the characters. Mr. NeoGAF just gave characters. Had he gotten a real leak, he would have had real info. Then there is the fact he doesn't say it's a leak until after his unlikely guess happened to be right. If that were the case, he would have posted all the info on his site and simply labeled it a rumor. See, the reason why the source after the fact is such a big deal is that sites post rumors ALL THE TIME. One rumor in another thread was from GoNintendo and he posted it because a lot of people were telling him about it. So when a news site desires not to post something and decides to do it later saying "I had a source the whole time, but I needed to verify the rumor." it sounds fishy at best. A lot of things add up and his validity is questionable. He also made an account here to defend himself and he back peddled pretty hard.

 

[Starphoenix]

People questioned Ness because of the whole "Up until now" debacle that arose when Sakurai was discussing Lucas's moveset.

This is partly why we cannot dogmatically cling to every word Sakurai utters as any kind of indication on which way the roster will end up. A lot of people take for granted that Sakurai's native tongue is Japanese. Everything he says needs to go through a translator; with that things inevitabely get lost in translation. "Up until now" being a poignant example. You also have the fact that Sakurai tends to be wishy washy in what he says one game and does another. Look at Villager.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Any reasoning that people can provide for the inclusions or non-inclusion of any character is quite. literally. absolutely. useless.

The sooner people realize that, the better...

 

[Neanderthal]

Double post.

Honestly Neanderthal, I'm not sure how you don't get it after all of this time. I feel like you want the rumor to be real more than anything.

It's not suspicious at all. He didn't want to lose credibility on what he thought was probably a bad source to begin with. Can you blame him for doubting the source when it told him ridiculous characters like the Wii Fit trainer?

Go to a new site and you'll probably see "RUMOR: X and Y in new Smash." Site do this all the damn time. So there is no issue with "Oh I didn't trust the source." Just say you don't know the validity of the source. It's pretty sketchy when he makes a good prediction and says "OH LOOK, I had a source the whole time. I didn;t make it up. What? Why didn't I post it before which would have given documented evidence of my information. Because I didn't trust the source. You say new sites do this all the time? Well, clearly I had INTEGRITY where all these much larger and more fequented sites do not. I'm special." You must also be very gullibal Neanderthal.

He was only told characters by the source. Not moves.

Go look at other leaks, even the one in this thread. They don't just arbitraily give characters but other facts as well. Take a look at this one which turned out to be true

http://gamerant.com/marvel-vs-capcom-3-twitter-leaks-dyce-57636/

See how he says far more than just characters. This is because he actually knew something. The NeoGAF doesn't know more than you and I. Was there an actual leak, he would have had more information probably including what they could do. This guy just posted six names. Leaks post other information to give them validity when proven right. As I said above, he never had a source till after the fact which is suspicious (why not just post it before). Then he has no new info. You'd think, if this guy knew what characters were going to be shown, he would have known something else like an attack. This shows he knew nothing and is running with a lucky guess.

I can agree that it brings it into question. But getting one small detail wrong which could have been changed or misunderstood does not compare to the unlikelihood of guessing what he said. No logical unbiased person would consider it entirely debunked based on this.

If you had inside information about the characters, you'd figure you'd at least know the right name the game is using. Please show me a leak where they got the names wrong.

He did not say there won't be any more third parties and this does not rule out Pac.

But it strongly suggest it wont happen.

OK, big picture. The guy got lucky and made it a "I got inside info." You see, had he actually gotten a leak, he would have probably gotten real information. Leaks don't show just characters but multiple elements from the game. Example: The guy that leaked stuff for Super Street Fighter 4 also knew the name of Dhalsim's move. A leaker for Brawl described the Dragoon. The leaker could had said "The 3DS characters have black outlines. Megaman uses the metal blade and crash bomb. Those are hard to guess. And had this leaker knew the reveal, he could describe what happen and what is shown off (like stages, character moves, look, ect). This would because a leaker would know these kinds of things because he knew some info. Take the Brawl leak. These came from testers or people who knew testers so they would have seen a good amount of content. They would have known stuff about the characters. Mr. NeoGAF just gave characters. Had he gotten a real leak, he would have had real info. Then there is the fact he doesn't say it's a leak until after his unlikely guess happened to be right. If that were the case, he would have posted all the info on his site and simply labeled it a rumor. See, the reason why the source after the fact is such a big deal is that sites post rumors ALL THE TIME. One rumor in another thread was from GoNintendo and he posted it because a lot of people were telling him about it. So when a news site desires not to post something and decides to do it later saying "I had a source the whole time, but I needed to verify the rumor." it sounds fishy at best. A lot of things add up and his validity is questionable. He also made an account here to defend himself and he back peddled pretty hard.

You can call me gullible all you want for believing someone might have inside info because they named all three E3 reveals including the unpredictable Wii Fit. But you're deluding yourself if you're completely sure that this leak is 100% debunked. Absolutely deluded.

Everything else you've said I have already responded too and you are just taking us in circles.
All that's left now is to wait and see if Pac, Mii and Little Mac make it. But knowing you, you'll just say it's a coincidence if they do .

 

[Morbi]

You can call me gullible all you want for believing someone might have inside info because they named all three E3 reveals including the unpredictable Wii Fit. But you're deluding yourself if you're completely sure that this leak is 100% debunked. Absolutely deluded.

Everything else you've said I have already responded too and you are just taking us in circles.
All that's left now is to wait and see if Pac, Mii and Little Mac make it. But knowing you, you'll just say it's a coincidence if they do .

Yeah. To be honest Little Mac is pretty likely because of the Punch Out stage. I mean they RARELY make a stage without a playable character. Pac-Man was kind of given the moment Namco began co-developing the game. Miis... I don't even know what to say. I that is the one that I am a little disappointed in. I wouldn't mind if they made Villager the default Mii and you could change him up. He already looks like a Mii to me. Either way, if this guy predicted Wii Fit Trainer he seems pretty credible right off the bat. Villager is the same kind of thing. Megaman was given though. I think I believe this leak. I mean they are all likely candidates. I mean Sakurai was alluding character customization. One of the only ways I can see that working is through picking the pallet swaps or Miis. Little Mac was already an assist trophy now we have a stage. It seems like the stars are lining up for Mac.

 

[bballstar23]

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...brawl-roster-does-get-leaked-on-topic.134204/

Here's a nice read up on melee's leak. Anyone recall how the brawl leak went down? I think there were three leakers that were telling the truth.

And for examples of how people reacted to the leak.

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/chronobounds-thoughts-on-the-brawl-roster-very-long-read.139579/

We can expect this reaction when 4 comes out.

I remember being swept up in all the pre-Brawl hysteria, especially when it came to character speculation. There were plenty of characters that seemed to be guaranteed (Krystal, Ridley, K Rool, etc), so when the final roster was leaked it wasn't surprising people when into an uproar. Looking back though, Brawl's roster was actually pretty solid overall. Aside from some of those characters I mentioned, no one was really missed at all. I actually remember reading ChronoBound's post back then and generally agreeing with most of what he said. I'm sure people will be up in arms again when the SSB4 roster is revealed, but I've learned my lesson to be cautiously optimistic, rather than buying into the definitive statements people make around here. I never went crazy over the leak, but I can't say I wasn't initially disappointed. However, I was also excited to finally find out who made it into the game.

 

[TheTuninator]

Of course he will! Come on you guys, Sakurai knows what he's doing! We got ****ing Mega Man in the trailer, when Capcom didn't even have **** to do with the game before.

Unless he throws us a curve ball, in addition to Mac, well be bathing in our Mewtwo's and K. Rools and Ridleys and Palutenas (Ohhh myyy) before too long.

I'm sure he'll give u a good amount of popular characters, but let's not set ourselves up for disappointment here.

On the subject of the OP, I look forward to wading through leak ****storms in the coming months. Should be fun. Very curious to see if the possibly legit E3 leak pans out. I'd hate having Mii, but Nintendo has been shoving him into everything as of late, and if he's in, he's in.

Any reasoning that people can provide for the inclusions or non-inclusion of any character is quite. literally. absolutely. useless.

The sooner people realize that, the better...

Well sure, but it's still fun to argue about.

 

[bballstar23]

People questioned Ness because of the whole "Up until now" debacle that arose when Sakurai was discussing Lucas's moveset.

Haha I totally forgot about that whole debacle. Those Dojo updates were glorious, but they used to cause fits among people in the community. Just another example of people overanalyzing Sakurai's words as others have already done in this thread.

 

[volbound1700]

The leaks were before the release (about 3-4 weeks before). The Dojo Updates on the very last characters were after release. But Dojo updates were never leaks they were always just spoilers .



Let me put it this way.

You shouldn't say that something won't or will happen. You do not know if it will or will not happen. For all you know Namco actually negotiated a price drop on their services to get Pac-Man into the game in order to promote him even further. (Namco has been working hard this year to promote Pac-Man through very different medias, and making a new tv series, new game and they even had an entire (albeit small) booth dedicated only to Pac-Man at E3).

You don't know with certainty how Sakurai thinks, neither what has been going on or has been planned for Smash 4. And please don't give proof for something that you aren't sure its true. You can say you "believe" or "think" something because of this "analysis" based on this "speculation", but don't go ahead and say "he isn't in and here's the proof why he isn't", you will be very sorry if you are proven wrong.

Now this is just conjecture but I seriously doubt that Sakurai/Nintendo pays royalties for third party characters to be in Smash. I think it is voluntary on the part of the 3rd Party because it provides the character with free advertising.

Now I do believe that Nintendo pays the third party for contractors to support the development of these characters so the Third Party company does get the benefit of having a project for their employees to work on and get paid for doing that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Brawl´s leaks where pretty dissapointing for me. I first knew about Lucario being in, and Mewtwo being out. And then Sheik´s confirmation...

 

[volbound1700]

With regard to third party. In another interview, Sakurai stated that Megaman was added also because he had a unique moveset that wasn't present in the Nintendo Universe. He had abilities that stood out. Sonic is likely in the same boat with Spin Dash, etc.

Not only is popularity a factor but also uniqueness and moveset potential apparently.



The only dissappointment I truely had with Brawl's roster was the cuts (although I could live with Pichu and I didn't consider Young Link a cut just a change to Toon Link) and I was hoping for Megaman which I get in this game.


This game, I really do not care about any newcomers although I would like Pac-Man. I would like to see the Vets return. If I got the entire Brawl roster back, I would be more satisfied than getting a bunch of newcomers and a large roster but having cuts.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dr.Mario, Pichu and Young Link where always considered the most likely characters to get cut. Roy came second to all. And some haters asked for Ice Climbers and Mr.Game & Watch´s removal.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Wow, thanks to everybody who compiled this. These conversations were a great read.

They made me think back to my history with the series. I got into Smash 64 really late, and was super excited for Melee, but I never saw any message boards on it until about a year after its release, so I completely missed all the character debates for that game.

As for Brawl, a lot of that conversation makes a good point. I was honestly disappointed with the final roster of the game, as were a lot of people... not really from the size of the roster (35 is pretty great), but the unimaginative nature of most of the newcomers. And I really think the Smash team blew it with their information reveals... Snake was an excitement builder at e3. ok no problem. but they really should have held Pit, PokeTrainer, and Sonic (and maybe a couple others) a bit closer to their chest... so they had an excitement builder a few days or weeks before release. As it was, there was a huge initial excitement, then every other reveal was very stale (iirc, Wolf was one of the final reveals... uh ok)

That said, I'm already more excited about SSB4's roster than I ever was about Brawl.
WFT looks like a hilarious character (who was added no doubt because they realized what kind of moveset she could have, rather than just as a joke "surprising" character), Villager and all his memes are great (really can't tell about gameplay, but it's worth it for the memes), and freaking Megaman blew me away. I never thought I would be excited if he were added to the series because A) I didn't expect it to happen AT ALL, and B) I honestly thought the character was mostly dead now, and C) Every time I saw him suggested, I pictured the MM7/8/MvC style megaman, who killed the character for me (and that voice...gah). The way they introduced him, and the fact that his character model is probably the best I've seen since the NES games is amazing for me.



A few funny things that I saw in the past conversations:

-Megaman has been mentioned a lot for EVERY Smash sequel
-Geno has been mentioned a lot for EVERY Smash sequel (really should rename that Skullkid argument the Geno argument)
-Ridley has been mentioned a lot for EVERY Smash sequel (Sakurai seems to like trolling Ridley's fans)
-Ganondorf's sword has been mentioned for every smash sequel
-Joanna Dark was requested for Melee
-People were apparently really excited for SSE... I never knew that. Sucked to be them.
-Our community apparently consists of extreme optimists, EXTREME cynics, and people who like to play jokes on them by "leaking" fake info
-Nearly nothing we use to justify our opinions ever turns out to be accurate (Ness will be cut because.. etc etc)
-Saying something is absolutely NOT going to happen usually just makes you look stupid...