Abandoning Rosaluma :<

[ZombieBran]

I'll use who I damn well please.

Also Rosalina is so easy to use, people say. Is that why she was mid tier on so many players' early tier lists?
Maybe she's easy to win with. But she is likely the most difficult of the top/high tiers to use well.

I play a crapton of Ganondorf and have faced enough rubbish from projectile users and fast characters on Omega stages that I play Rosalina guilty-free.

Replace Ganondorf with Zelda and you have a situation almost like mine.

 

[Clemente]

Also Rosalina is so easy to use, people say. Is that why she was mid tier on so many players' early tier lists?

Because people put "I don't know, I haven't used them much" in "mid tier". It's stupid, but it always happens.

Anyone with half a brain can use Rosalina in practice mode and realize how good she is.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll use who I damn well please.

Also Rosalina is so easy to use, people say. Is that why she was mid tier on so many players' early tier lists?
Maybe she's easy to win with. But she is likely the most difficult of the top/high tiers to use well.

Ironically, it feels harder to use fighters like Mega Man, Sheik, and Greninja correctly, than it does to use Rosalina correctly. But I guess it really helps when Rosalina has the Luma by her side to give herself more diverse combat options.

 

[ZombieBran]

Ironically, it feels harder to use fighters like Mega Man, Sheik, and Greninja correctly than it does to use Rosalina correctly.

I disagree about Sheik. Sheik half of the time feels like autoplay. And iirc she has the most victories of the cast so far? If that's true even though Rosalina is the best character, then Sheik is either easier to use or has more good players.
Mega Man is harder to use effectively but he's a mediocre character and that sorta goes hand in hand.

Because people put "I don't know, I haven't used them much" in "mid tier". It's stupid, but it always happens.

Anyone with half a brain can use Rosalina in practice mode and realize how good she is.

Actually I agree. I remember half of the tier lists being "I dunno, seems mid tier".

It was obvious that she was good. And really it should've been a warning. As people keep saying, puppet fighters are almost always either amazing or trash tier.

But I wouldn't say she's easy to use well. I guess that makes it worse because as people get better and more intricate Luma stuff is discovered, she'll only get better and better. Probably faster than the rate at which her competition does.

 

[Darklink401]

Yeah, Sheik is autoplay, she's by far the easiest top-tier character to use, as Yoshi needs a bit of technique, and Rosalina needs to be in the right hands.

EDIT:

Then again, Bowser's pretty easy to use too.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I disagree about Sheik. Sheik half of the time feels like autoplay. And iirc she has the most victories of the cast so far?
Mega Man is harder to use effectively but he's a mediocre character and that sorta goes hand in hand.

One thing that is certain is that Greninja's reputation is very overrated once you start comparing it to Sheik. Unlike Sheik, Greninja really lacks any safe approaches, as just about all of its specials can easily be punished, including Substitute. Greninja also lacks KO power outside of its smash attacks, and even its standard third jump is hard to use correctly.

These are all flaws that Rosalina doesn't suffer from, as most of her combat options can be quite tough to counter, and the Luma can even KO things with just its 3-hit combo. Of course, Rosalina does have her fair share of weaknesses, but it's nothing like what Greninja has to deal with most of the time.

 

[Doval]

I urge anyone who says "<some character> is <too good/too easy/autoplay/whatever>" to test that theory by winning major tournaments consistently. It's not that easy.

Of course if you don't play competitively you can play or not play a character for any completely subjective reason you want.

 

[MitoRequiem]

Take it from someone who played Chun-Li in 3rd Strike(She was a freakin broken mess lol) If you legit like the character just play it who cares about tiers(I mean at a certain point it does matter for tournament play) but you get what I mean. I love Marth he's like my favorite videogame character, played all 4 of his games and no matter how good or how bad I'll always play him guilt-free. If you love the character Rosalina just play her man.

EDIT: I don't think Rosalina is broken/OP at all I dunno why people keep tossing those words around but we'll see when Wii U comes out~

 

[icraq]

topic has certainly expanded the discussion from the OP.. and it has got me thinking about stuff.

it feels like i always gravitate to these characters people love to hate, i dont know if i'm just a bad player or unlucky or what. before ssb4 i stuck with marth, but he plays so differently now it's really hard to kick old habits which aren't effective anymore.

the thing that caught my attention with rosalina, from the first time i played her, was just how much potential she had. she is so unique in so many different ways. im not sure i'd be as into ss4 without her moveset. even though separating luma is typically a bad idea in most MUs, that's part of what i love about her, ping ponging enemies and such.

i dont particularly like the flow of the current meta, nothing wrong with it, i just dont like it. but rosalina kind of disrupts things, she is her own unique matchup for most characters. you can't fight rosalina like you do anyone else. and something different from marth, i dont play rosalina the same vs all the characters. i pretty much just played marth the same every time in melee/brawl.

anyways, i like her because she is, well, exploitable, and i intend on figuring out all the shenanigans she's capable of. and damned if she doesn't look good kicking ass. and as a bonus, she makes people rage quit in for glory like no other character i've seen, it's great.

 

[Clemente]

But I wouldn't say she's easy to use well. I guess that makes it worse because as people get better and more intricate Luma stuff is discovered, she'll only get better and better. Probably faster than the rate at which her competition does.

The disparity between Rosalina and other characters is large even before advanced techniques.

You've said repeatedly that Rosalina will be a character that's tough to "use well", or master, on the other hand. I don't know about that. I don't doubt the possibility of many advanced techniques being discovered for her. She has a whole extra layer to her play that no other character has. You might be right. But she is still on top when used poorly.

Besides Rosalina being strong, the puppet Luma is way too powerful. It makes you scratch your head. Silly hitboxes are one thing, but the concept of "balance" was definitely not present when discussing how to implement Luma. That's the part which is pathetic and sad.

topic has certainly expanded the discussion from the OP.. and it has got me thinking about stuff.

it feels like i always gravitate to these characters people love to hate, i dont know if i'm just a bad player or unlucky or what. before ssb4 i stuck with marth, but he plays so differently now it's really hard to kick old habits which aren't effective anymore.

the thing that caught my attention with rosalina, from the first time i played her, was just how much potential she had. she is so unique in so many different ways. im not sure i'd be as into ss4 without her moveset. even though separating luma is typically a bad idea in most MUs, that's part of what i love about her, ping ponging enemies and such.

i dont particularly like the flow of the current meta, nothing wrong with it, i just dont like it. but rosalina kind of disrupts things, she is her own unique matchup for most characters. you can't fight rosalina like you do anyone else. and something different from marth, i dont play rosalina the same vs all the characters. i pretty much just played marth the same every time in melee/brawl.

anyways, i like her because she is, well, exploitable, and i intend on figuring out all the shenanigans she's capable of. and damned if she doesn't look good kicking ***. and as a bonus, she makes people rage quit in for glory like no other character i've seen, it's great.

You're wondering if you gravitate towards hated characters or if you're just unlucky, but you explained it yourself later.

You assessed the character and you realized that she has a lot of potential. There's nothing wrong with using a character for that reason.

 

[icraq]

You're wondering if you gravitate towards hated characters or if you're just unlucky, but you explained it yourself later.

You assessed the character and you realized that she has a lot of potential. There's nothing wrong with using a character for that reason.

yeah, I guess that was why I was writing, just kind of self analyzing. good observation.

 

[Steam]

I dunno if I'd call rosalina tough to use. half the reason she's so good is because luma can bail her out half the time when she's getting punished.

 

[Darklink401]

I dunno if I'd call rosalina tough to use. half the reason she's so good is because luma can bail her out half the time when she's getting punished.

She's not hard to use, but she's got unbelievable untapped potential.

 

[Ceph]

I'd say Rosaluma's easy to pick up, hard to master.

 

[Shiliski]

I dunno if I'd call rosalina tough to use. half the reason she's so good is because luma can bail her out half the time when she's getting punished.

Using her with Luma at her side is no more difficult than playing any other character.

Trying to master the character when Rosalina and Luma are separate is a bit harder.

I'd put her in the "easy to learn but hard to master" category.

 

[Steam]

in a lot of matchups separating is a bad idea in general.

but she has unique mechanics, but she also gets unique things that just bail her out for free. So she has to be mastered in different ways, but is really no more difficult than anyone else.

 

[Warlock*G]

I urge anyone who says "<some character> is <too good/too easy/autoplay/whatever>" to test that theory by winning major tournaments consistently. It's not that easy.

Of course if you don't play competitively you can play or not play a character for any completely subjective reason you want.

Or, if you play competitively...

 

[ChikoLad]

in a lot of matchups separating is a bad idea in general..

I entirely disagree. It's bad in some match-ups, but in most, it has a lot of uses. If not for directly attacking the opponent, then by creating a wall which they have to maneuver around, leading them to play right into Rosalina's hands.

 

[Steam]

I entirely disagree. It's bad in some match-ups, but in most, it has a lot of uses. If not for directly attacking the opponent, then by creating a wall which they have to maneuver around, leading them to play right into Rosalina's hands.

when luma's separated from rosa I feel like she's playing into my hands because I can actually properly punish her then LOL

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

when luma's separated from rosa I feel like she's playing into my hands because I can actually properly punish her then LOL

You'd think that, until you realize that Rosalina can call back the Luma. To stop that, you need to send the Luma flying into an abyss.

 

[Steam]

You'd think that, until you realize that Rosalina can call back the Luma. To stop that, you need to send the Luma flying into an abyss.

or put out aura sphere charge : D

Either way any character would still have the time to go for a mixup that would otherwise be impossible because luma would generally stop it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

or put out aura sphere charge : D

Either way any character would still have the time to go for a mixup that would otherwise be impossible because luma would generally stop it.

Something that's easier said than done if Rosalina is very evasive.

 

[warionumbah2]

Or, if you play competitively...

Thus this will lead to the same characters appearing in every tournament, it seems like a comedy video but its 100% true. If tournament players are salty about Rosalina and play to win, hell to the yeah start maining Rosalina,Sheik,ZSS,mac,Yoshi and some other beast character.

"I want priority, i want damage, i don't want a gg it was close, i want the win, i want the money" - Truth if you wanna beast in every tournement.

@OP Use who you wanna use, if you're not enjoying using a strong character let it go. We can't help you man only you can decide at the end of the day.

 

[ChikoLad]

or put out aura sphere charge : D

Either way any character would still have the time to go for a mixup that would otherwise be impossible because luma would generally stop it.

Down B says hi, forcing you to approach.

And if I use her Down B while close enough to you, that Aura Sphere will actually swing around and hit you. Especially easy to do when you are at high aura, meaning you are much easier to launch too.

Lucario is only a threat when he is at high aura, meaning he in particular does get better at dealing with Luma at high percents. However, at that stage, Rosalina just changes her tactics to not send Luma out. And instead, uses Luma for the extra range and his KO power, which is bad for Lucario who is already at high percents.

 

[Darklink401]

Rosalina isn't helpless without Luma like Olimar used to be without Pikmin. She can still grab, do some attacks, do her aerials, etc.

Her being separated just adds range to her attacks and allows her to follow up once she f-throws you.

 

[Steam]

Something that's easier said than done if Rosalina is very evasive.

well yes she's very slippery, she's top tier for a reason. but when luma's not on her is when she's most open. you have to capitalize on those windows.

Down B says hi, forcing you to approach.

And if I use her Down B while close enough to you, that Aura Sphere will actually swing around and hit you. Especially easy to do when you are at high aura, meaning you are much easier to launch too.

Lucario is only a threat when he is at high aura, meaning he in particular does get better at dealing with Luma at high percents. However, at that stage, Rosalina just changes her tactics to not send Luma out. And instead, uses Luma for the extra range and his KO power, which is bad for Lucario who is already at high percents.

I meant throw out aurasphere charge as in, if luma's behind lucario and trying to return to rosa. Luma will get trapped in Aurasphere charge and just sit there and eat damage. I'm fully aware that aurasphere sucks against rosalina at anything other than trying to kill off luma.

Lucario's rolls and counter are good enough that luma zoning only works situationally and it's honestly better to keep luma for the extra hitboxes because outspacing lucario is so easy in this game.

 

[ChikoLad]

I meant throw out aurasphere charge as in, if luma's behind lucario and trying to return to rosa. Luma will get trapped in Aurasphere charge and just sit there and eat damage.

That's EXTREMELY situational though.

Plus, focusing totally on trying to take out Luma like that is one of the worst things to do against Rosalina. Just leaves you open to Rosalina herself. Damaging Luma does not damage her, so you actually are not progressing the match in your favour at all, even if you do take out Luma, since a lone Rosalina is perfectly capable of standing up to you.

 

[MitoRequiem]

Or, if you play competitively...

This video is a classic think you for posting this lol

 

[Steam]

That's EXTREMELY situational though.

Plus, focusing totally on trying to take out Luma like that is one of the worst things to do against Rosalina. Just leaves you open to Rosalina herself. Damaging Luma does not damage her, so you actually are not progressing the match in your favour at all, even if you do take out Luma, since a lone Rosalina is perfectly capable of standing up to you.

it's not situational at all, it's useful anytime lucario is between the two because AS charge is disjointed for some reason.

Lucario has to take out luma because she's essentially untouchable as lucario when she has luma on her, and I assume it's a similar situation for most low range characters. I mean have you seen her nair?

 

[ChikoLad]

it's not situational at all, it's useful anytime lucario is between the two because AS charge is disjointed for some reason.

Lucario has to take out luma because she's essentially untouchable as lucario when she has luma on her, and I assume it's a similar situation for most low range characters. I mean have you seen her nair?

High Aura Lucario has range to rival Rosalina. Dat Force Palm.

And that charge is still very situational. Lucario won't often between the two. And again, only hitting Luma does nothing for you. You should focus on both, not just one.

 

[Steam]

High Aura Lucario has range to rival Rosalina. Dat Force Palm.

And that charge is still very situational. Lucario won't often between the two. And again, only hitting Luma does nothing for you. You should focus on both, not just one.

hitting luma buys lucario some time to have rosalina to himself. going for both often doesn't work out because luc has tiny hitboxes.

high aura FP is good for pressure on luma but an easy powershield punish for rosalina if not used in only certain situations

 

[asd_]

while i've yet to play smash 4, playing competent mewtwos, links, sonics etc in pm is just downright annoying. it's not fun to play against characters that require much less effort to provide insane results. the beauty of melee's top tiers (at least the spacies) is that they take the most effort to play at a high level. fox can't grab someone standing literally behind them and upthrow them at 70% to kill them like pm mewtwo

for that reason I never play PM top tiers because I know how annoying it is to go against them. i'd rather put up a fight as a more balanced character than win feeling like I only won because I'm playing a character that's clearly not well balanced. if there's money involved, it's a different story

as the game progresses I get the sense that rosa will be the pm mewtwo of smash 4. the character design is just ******** from a balancing standpoint

 

[Ceph]

while i've yet to play smash 4, playing competent mewtwos, links, sonics etc in pm is just downright annoying. it's not fun to play against characters that require much less effort to provide insane results. the beauty of melee's top tiers (at least the spacies) is that they take the most effort to play at a high level. fox can't grab someone standing literally behind them and upthrow them at 70% to kill them like pm mewtwo

for that reason I never play PM top tiers because I know how annoying it is to go against them. i'd rather put up a fight as a more balanced character than win feeling like I only won because I'm playing a character that's clearly not well balanced. if there's money involved, it's a different story

as the game progresses I get the sense that rosa will be the pm mewtwo of smash 4. the character design is just ******** from a balancing standpoint

I play PM too and I know what you mean about Mewtwo. However, puppet characters can work in a balanced game, it's just hard to do. I think with the right tweaks Rosalina can be balanced; for example, removing her ability to attack even when stunned.

 

[AetherStorm]

Just remember that you're not playing her just because she's OP. I played Metaknight in Brawl before I knew how OP he was, simply because I thought he was cool and fun to play. After learning that a lot of people hated him, I kept playing him because, well, he's my main. I'm not just going to drop him because of someone else' opinion. I decided I was going to play RosaLuma in Sm4sh from the moment I saw her gameplay. If she ended up being OP (or completely sucking), I was still going to play her.

 

[Merkabo]

Clemente
Why do you put out such a negative attitude regarding the story? Being critical only gets you to a certain point. Cx

Onnnnn toopic. If you think a characters mechanics are fun, play the character. If you no longer like a specific character for whatever reason don't play that character. Smash is a game we all play to have fun. Don't feel like you gotta do anything to take the fun away just because of the perception that this character or that character is easy or hard to play. Shiliski's story put that out there very well. Play who feels right to you.

 

[asd_]

I play PM too and I know what you mean about Mewtwo. However, puppet characters can work in a balanced game, it's just hard to do. I think with the right tweaks Rosalina can be balanced; for example, removing her ability to attack even when stunned.

we're talking about nintendo, the chances of a balance pass are as likely as the sun exploding

granted if luma took ~20 seconds to respawn and you couldn't attack with luma while in hitstun, nerfed upsmash a bit and lowered her priorirty a bit on her aerials since the spacing is already insane she'd probably be top tier but not as ridiculous.

the whole 8 second respawn and being able to attack with luma while in hitstun really makes me question what the hell they were thinking


the problem is rosa is really not dependant on luma. rosa is probably better than some characters WITHOUT luma

 

[Augi Jr.]

I've been having similar feelings. I really like Rosalina. I'm really good at using her.

But I'm almost too good... Sure, every now and then I run into a really skilled player who is just simply superior and beats me royally. But most of the time I wipe the floor with people when I use Rosalina, and I do it so easily. I don't have to even try very hard, and it kind of bothers me. It has gotten to the point where I almost never use her because I want an actual challenge...

I have no problem with Rosalina's many advantages or the fact that she's High Tier. I just win so easily with her against most people. The last couple weeks I've actually been searching for a "secondary" character to play as so that my fights don't feel so "slam dunk". Currently, Pit is looking like a really fun choice. But yeah, I rarely play her now, it's just too easy to win, and I don't feel like I'm winning because of superiorly polished skills, but because of her advantages. So I don't feel like I can grow effectively and become better as a player unless I use someone else.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't see how Luma being able to attack when Rosalina is in hitstun is any more ridiculous than Little Mac being able to shrug it off entirely.

 

[Steam]

I don't see how Luma being able to attack when Rosalina is in hitstun is any more ridiculous than Little Mac being able to shrug it off entirely.

because you have to commit to little mac's super armor before you actually get hit.

 

[ChikoLad]

because you have to commit to little mac's super armor before you actually get hit.

So? That's still a lot more useful than being able to attack with a little tiny fella when Rosalina has already been sent flying. Little mac can prevent himself from being sent flying in the first place.