a way for items to be in competive brawl.

[SiD]

Okay then Zen, I support your Idea. It should be in the game. In tournaments, who know, but a great grea great idea that should be in the game.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I agree with the TC, however I have a few alterations. For items to be legal all the following would have to happen...

No broken items allowed (hearts, baseball bats, stars, etc.).
Consistant spawn locations with consistant spawn times (most important, otherwise things turn into luck. "It just happened to fall at that time...")
Able to change frequency of a speific item (this is very important, this means items could apprently almost never but a mr. saturn still appears way more often than a bomb).
Able to turn off (exploiding) boxes and crates
Items only allowed if counter picked unless both players agree on having them in the match.

 

[THEmSHAKE]

I understand where you're going with this, but there will always be issues of randomness that players will complain about.

Ultimately, I think theres only one real solution to the problem. That would be if standard tournaments and tournaments with items were to be considered and treated as two separate type of events. Such as the hammer throw and ice skating are in the olympics.....two completely different type of events.

If someone wants to put money down on a item tournament, then they obviously know there is a randomness risk that they have to accept. This would be due to the type of event they chose to enter.

For this to be possible two things have to happen.

1. Rules must be created for item tournments.

If its a separate event it wouldn't necessarily have the same rules as standard tournaments now would it?

2. Winners of item tournaments would need to be recognised by swf.

Currently, this doesn't happen because official item tournament don't exist. So why is this important? Well, why not grow as a community? If meta-mario is facing lordkirby in an item tournament, I'm pretty sure it won't effect your battle with marthvader in a standard tournament. Also, if its treated like it doesn't matter then we're back to the old "lets add items to tournaments" discussion. You do want them to end, don't you?

Its a simple solution. Why not make happen? And by that I mean give a good logical reason.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes it should, because of how powerful FS appear to be. It is different than a smash a attack it appears to deal MASSIVE damage, and therefore you analogy is irrelevant.

How powerful it appears to be is irrelevant, what's at issue is random advantage. Ultimately, there is no random advantage involved in Final Smashes, therefore they are fair.



And you can't just say an apology is irrelevant, you must prove it, what is so unique about final smashes that makes the analogy poor based on what I was using it to convey (namely, the fact that both players ultimately get the same ability to use it), how are smash attacks different in that respect?

ok. im going to bed.

but before i go i must ask adumbrodeus and everyone to PLEASE stop talking about items themselves be balanced to be used in the completive scene. there are many other threads like that. just either support or reject the idea in my original post.

not in comparison to something else just...

just please stay on topic and use logic.

I already made my opinions known, nobody was interested in discussing them, what does that say about hot-button issues I wonder.

Also, singling people out you disagree with is a BAD idea if multiple people are doing the same thing....

 

[SiD]

How powerful it appears to be is irrelevant, what's at issue is random advantage. Ultimately, there is no random advantage involved in Final Smashes, therefore they are fair.



And you can't just say an apology is irrelevant, you must prove it, what is so unique about final smashes that makes the analogy poor based on what I was using it to convey (namely, the fact that both players ultimately get the same ability to use it), how are smash attacks different in that respect?





I already made my opinions known, nobody was interested in discussing them, what does that say about hot-button issues I wonder.

Also, singling people out you disagree with is a BAD idea if multiple people are doing the same thing....

It is a bad analogy because characters have 4 smash attacks, so while one's up smash may be better than anothers, they will still have one smash that is better at least. Characters only have one FS.

And no matter how you look at it, the way your saying it should be would be random. No matter what the spawn rate is, one player will ALWAYS get it before the other, which could potentially give them an advantage, a random advantage, so there.


And he didn't single you out, sure he only used your name but he said everyone, probably only said your name because you started this tangent.

 

[SmashChu]

tournamnts=/=RL

While some may want it differently, tournamnts will always play by their own rules. In RL, their is no tier list or advance techniques.

 

[Varuna]

"only items that do not inherently give either player an advantage but instead increase the amount of strategy involved"

no such item can exist. unless both characters have the exact same item, at the exact same time.

That seems to be the biggest point you are missing. Both characters having the same item at the same time does not ensure balance! Jiggly puff with a screw attacks ***** many many things. Even you were to rig the game to where each character has equal chance at all items dropped, chances are that alot of those items are going to be simply too dangerous with that particular character. Add in that there is still a chance of a player only getting his/her worst possible drops throughout the entirety of the game and his/her opponents getting all the best drops.

Another way this system could be abused is if A player a gets a drop, then playing as a character like falco and remembering the timings of when his opponent is due for a drop after his, he SHL's toward him stunning him and preventing him from picking up the drop and thus stealing it from him or making him pay dearly for it.

 

[SiD]

That seems to be the biggest point you are missing. Both characters having the same item at the same time does not ensure balance! Jiggly puff with a screw attacks ***** many many things. Even you were to rig the game to where each character has equal chance at all items dropped, chances are that alot of those items are going to be simply too dangerous with that particular character. Add in that there is still a chance of a player only getting his/her worst possible drops throughout the entirety of the game and his/her opponents getting all the best drops.

Another way this system could be abused is if A player a gets a drop, then playing as a character like falco and remembering the timings of when his opponent is due for a drop after his, he SHL's toward him stunning him and preventing him from picking up the drop and thus stealing it from him or making him pay dearly for it.

But it still isn't random, which is what the problem with items is anyway.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Further reactions to the topic: The given spawn rate is too low, the match probably won't be seeing more then one item so it's really not a particularly interesting match type.

30 seconds perhaps, or maybe adjustable so people could tailor it to the intended match-up?

It is a bad analogy because characters have 4 smash attacks, so while one's up smash may be better than anothers, they will still have one smash that is better at least. Characters only have one FS.

And no matter how you look at it, the way your saying it should be would be random. No matter what the spawn rate is, one player will ALWAYS get it before the other, which could potentially give them an advantage, a random advantage, so there.


And he didn't single you out, sure he only used your name but he said everyone, probably only said your name because you started this tangent.

*Resists urge to continue discussion on fairness of final smashes*

Zenjamin was right, this is way off-topic, there's a perfectly good thread to take this discussion if you want to continue, post this there if you so desire, and I shall respond properly .

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=115126

(In case you didn't realize it, the only reason that I made that post was because I didn't see the later reply, hence the edit with response to Zenjamin, after made I don't delete posts except in truly rare cases).



Edit: The same goes for anyone else who wishes to continue the discussion.

 

[LanKaN]

If there are no random exploding boxes/capsules and you can still choose which items to use/how often they appear, items will be used.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

There will be no items in tournament play.

Ever.

 

[SiD]

There will be no items in tournament play.

Ever.

Don't be arrogant dude.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Don't be arrogant dude.

I'm not trying to be arrogant. It's a fact.

Even though you can control the spawn time of an item/ where they spawn, that variable will still exist. Characters who have advantages over others will be able to gain more of an advantage if they were able to manipulate items. Character balances are hard enough, but with items, it makes tings that much more imbalanced for the lesser/better characters.

And personally, I rather not play with items. I like a good old fashion Brawl (Pun intended).

 

[THEmSHAKE]

There are certainly alot of interesting points and counterpoints being made here. Honestly, though, there may be no need to get into a heated discussion about this. (although its entertaining) I posted a possible solution to this item in tournament issue that might cool things down a bit.

 

[SiD]

I'm not trying to be arrogant. It's a fact.

Even though you can control the spawn time of an item/ where they spawn, that variable will still exist. Characters who have advantages over others will be able to gain more advantage if they were able to manipulate items. Character balances are had enough, but with items, it makes tings that much more imbalanced for the lesser/better characters.

And personally, I rather not play with items. I like a good old fashion Brawl (Pun intended).

It's not a fact, don't be a jacksas. The had items in Melee tourneys originally too. You CANNONT PREDICT THE FUTURE, don't act like you know everything.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It's not a fact, don't be a jacksas. The had items in Melee tourneys originally too. You CANNONT PREDICT THE FUTURE, don't act like you know everything.

Ok then...

Since i'm being such a douche, let me ask you this.

Even if items are tournament legal, what would make you think people would want to play with them? Even if we had the choice to play with them, why would we? Just so we can appeal to a wider audience?

Items suck. All anyone ever did when playing with items was camp and throw them.

 

[SiD]

Ok then...

Since i'm being such a douche, let me ask you this.

Even if items are tournament legal, what would make you think people would want to play with them? Even if we had the choice to play with them, why would we? Just so we can appeal to a wider audience?

Items suck. All anyone ever did when playing with items was camp and throw them.

Items sucking is purely your opinion, and is based on Melee. Others may not share your opinion, and they may "suck" less in Brawl. Regardless, it still isn't a fact that they won't be used in tourneys, just probable.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Items sucking is purely your opinion, and is based on Melee. Others may not share your opinion, and they may "suck" less in Brawl. Regardless, it still isn't a fact that they won't be used in tourneys, just probable.

The way I see it, brawls probably going to have 2 competitive scenes. One with items, one without.

It would have been that way in melee, and there were some items on tournaments in melee, but not enough people supported it.

I know a lot of people wont want to start playing with items, even if crates and capsules are gone, just because they're used to fighting without them.

Likewise, given that its a new game, people will want items in brawl tournaments maybe.

thing is, 99 perecent of the people who post on the brawlboards probably couldnt even make it out of pools in melee, so they should shut their big n00b mouths and play melee more instead of B****ing al the **** time. It just goes to show that you scrubs are bitter about your lack of ability to win in melee, nothing more.

As for items on tournaments in brawl, I support them. But I think that if they exist, they shouldnt be the only method of holding a tournament. We just have to wait a few months, then we'll see.

And the first year, two years of brawl tournaments are going to be boring anyway, the meta-game is going to be very shallow, someones going to find a really cheap tactic and stick with it, and my prediction is that Ken is going to play brawl for the money and annoy yet again, thousands of smashers. And I'll laugh.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Items sucking is purely your opinion, and is based on Melee. Others may not share your opinion, and they may "suck" less in Brawl. Regardless, it still isn't a fact that they won't be used in tourneys, just probable.

I wasn't trying to establish my opinion as a fact in the first place.


As Demon Machine stated, having two tournament scenes is a pluasable idea, but could potentially become a waste of space in my opinion.

 

[SiD]

I'm not trying to be arrogant. It's a fact.

This isn't trying to establish your opinion as a fact? Anyway, yeah, it is a plausible idea to have two different scenes, but most likely, I agree that items probably won't be used in tourney play. But not a fact, just what I persoanlly think is likely.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This isn't trying to establish your opinion as a fact? Anyway, yeah, it is a plausible idea to have two different scenes, but most likely, I agree that items probably won't be used in tourney play. But not a fact, just what I persoanlly think is likely.

I meant the whole "Items Suck" thing. Not that.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

I'm not going to read the first post..

But I thought that items were taken out because of the crates etc....

Smash ball I'm not sure though.

-Onyx

 

[SiD]

I'm not going to read the first post..

-Onyx

You should, it's not what you think.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Sounds like and idea I've heard many times before.

-Onyx

 

[Neokun]

Fail. Fail. Fail.

 

[Adi]

It depends how the items turn out in brawl. But chances are the ones that are more useful than simply throwing items are going to have too great of an imbalance to include them.

Also regardless of how you look at it, it would still turn the match into a camping battle over control of the items to thereby control the flow of the battle. Not even the most hardcore of item lovers could attest to that being more fun than a straight up brawl.

 

[Zenjamin]

Sounds like and idea I've heard many times before.

the please. direct me to the link. because i have never heard this idea nor ahve i heard anyone mention this idea.

It depends how the items turn out in brawl. But chances are the ones that are more useful than simply throwing items are going to have too great of an imbalance to include them.

no. thats the whole point. it isnt even unfair if an item automaticaly takeses a stock away. because that item was earned by a test of skill. no excuses for jhoning. dont like it? dont be a noob, keep the other guy away from it.

Also regardless of how you look at it, it would still turn the match into a camping battle over control of the items to thereby control the flow of the battle. Not even the most hardcore of item lovers could attest to that being more fun than a straight up brawl.

you mean you think people would be camping the top platform for the item? serously? thats the worse place to camp. it makes you quite vunerable from attack from below.. everyone in competive smashknows that. the goal would be to keep the other guy as far away from the middle as possible. when it drops, you have a head start.

now think about it. what are you almost alwys trying to do in current competive smash? keep the other guy as far away from the middle, and as near to oblivion, as possible. (simplified of corse)


but you did respond with logic and stayed on topic, thatnks.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Regardless of the first post, i'm starting to hate the "Search button assault squad". With a passion.

 

[Caael]

I like your idea, and if there were exploding crates or barrels, you would know to stay away before they appear. Of course, this would have to be an option in special Brawl, as it would be annoying to have to wait for a while for items to appear

Call me a scrub all you want, I really dont care.

 

[Kashakunaki]

They won't becuase Americans have no balls, and blame people for being cheap with items. Are you going to blame God for gravity too for falling allowing you to die?

Amen.

While I think you have a some what neat and plausible idea, I'm going to have to disagree with you because of one thing:

You are thinking about the game as a tournament only game.

Smash isn't made to play competively. It is made as a party game to be enjoyed by you and your friends, so you can pick your favorite Nintendo character and rep yourself and its franchise while having a ball with your friends. Not just so you can "combo" them.

 

[O D I N]

how about u dont consider a smash ball a item how about u just turn it on or off in the options menu.

for example...

Time Limit: 8:00
Stock: 5
Final Smash: On


just somthing like that

I find something like this more likely than having items turned on.

Who knows; Final Smash may just be on by default.

 

[Zenjamin]

hey kash! hows it going? have you improved at all over the summer? i see you havent allowed yourself to forget that MM.
i didnt play once this summer. dont even have a GC since Duha and 9 left the DSC.

have you heard about the now weekly play n trade tournys? thats off topic though. so either PM me or post
here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=116702




by he way. that guy you responded to was an obvious troll

 

[blayde_axel]

With the amount of customization that we've seen so far, it seems like we'll be able to turn off Smash Balls. At least, it seems like.

 

[Njs523]

They won't becuase Americans have no balls, and blame people for being cheap with items. Are you going to blame God for gravity too for falling allowing you to die?

Gravity applies to everyone you scrub-face. People would only complain about it if it effected people unevenly and made the match unbalanced.
The entire item debate stems from the fact that items are random and unpredictable with regard to location and contents. Nobody cares about being 'cheap' with items, because you should play to win; the complaints are that items can spawn anywhere and potentially detonate - killing you out of the blue, and detracting from the skill element of the game. Tournaments are about determining skill, not about determining who is luckiest enough to not have a bomb spawn over them in mid-attack.

On topic: I think the idea could actually be viable, although I personally would still prefer playing with items off. It could definitely work for tournaments though for people who enjoy them being on.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Hmm. There are a lot of stubborn people on these forums, aren't there.

This idea has in fact been presented before in a more generalized thread about items, but I think it would've been a little hard to search for, as it would be some post in some thread which was about items in brawl.

First, about your stock idea that nobody has mentioned- I think that would be cool, but I think that it's not too likely... even though that'd be a much better handicap than the current handicap system.

So, here are my thoughts about the items in short.
- As items have a known spawn location and warning is given, the person nearest to the spawned item will be whoever was able to reach the area through skill.
- As items have warning, there is no chance of an item popping in front of you and ruining everything via explosions.
- This would be an option for how items spawn, and in fun casual play in which randomness is wanted, it could be turned to the normal spawning mode.

So that basically summarizes what you said.

- In tourney play, there would have to be some items that aren't tourney legal. While the opportunity to pick up the item is the same, certain items, recovery items mostly, would turn the tide of the game too much for a single item, which comes off as stupid.
- Turn barrels and crates off, even if they won't pop in front of you and explode they still get in the way of projectiles and even normal fighting.
-I don't think we know enough about final smash balancing yet. It seems clear that some are focused on injuring one person and others are focused on being able to hit more, but it could still end up being balanced ok.
-Someone said that items would be unfair because certain characters are better at manipulating them. If that's how the character was designed then I imagine the developers had that in mind when balancing them. When fighting certain characters you have to change your techniques, so it's not really that weird at all to make the decision to not throw things at people who can reflect.

 

[Team Giza]

In my opinoin this would kill the fun in any item match I've ever had.
YAY BOMB-OMBS on very high. Oh wait....10 sec. later... A bom-omb.... 10 more sec..... woohoo(sarcastic)

I don't think it means wait 10 seconds for each item to appear... I think it means the sparkles will start to appear (and possible show the item) but it takes 10 seconds for the items to actually solidify and become usable. However, this does not limit them to one appearing at a time. There could be one that starts up and another that starts 2 seconds later.

I would like it to be like this but it won't happen.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

I think its a pretty neat idea.

Geez, some of you guys need to lighten up!

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This idea still sucks. Call me troll if you need.

Is it that crucial to have items in competitive play? Why change the competitive (In this case worsen) scene that has worked perfectly for 5 years?

Why do we need items?

 

[Team Giza]

EPF... how would this worsen the the competitive scene? Not to sound rude, I just really don't see how it would.

 

[SiD]

This idea still sucks. Call me troll if you need.

Is it that crucial to have items in competitive play? Why change the competitive (In this case worsen) scene that has worked perfectly for 5 years?

Why do we need items?

Why do we need to not have items? You are being a troll, yeah. Your opinion isn't the same as all other competitive smashers, nor is it based on anything besides melee.