a way for items to be in competive brawl.

[OnyxVulpine]

This idea still sucks. Call me troll if you need.

Is it that crucial to have items in competitive play? Why change the competitive (In this case worsen) scene that has worked perfectly for 5 years?

Why do we need items?

Why do we need to not have items? You are being a troll, yeah. Your opinion isn't the same as all other competitive smashers, nor is it based on anything besides melee.

Yeah, some people actually want items in competitive play. I haven't counted, but I haven't encountered much people that actually don't want items in competitive. I don't think your opinion and personal reasons won't be a valid reason to take items out.

-Onyx

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

EPF... how would this worsen the the competitive scene? Not to sound rude, I just really don't see how it would.

The competative scene is a enviornemt based on stability. Rules are established and we play based on what has been established as a "Balanced" enviornment. The curent meta-game as of now is based on the rules. Character counter picks, stage counter picks, advantages, disadvantages etc. Everything that we know evolves based on the current rules we have established.

The competative scene is at a complete opposition regaurding items in general because of the inevitable changes that they will bring. The exchange of attacks with skillful execution wouldn't be of a greater priority; the ability to get items from spawn points and knowing when they arrive would be in priority. Putting items into the mix wouldn't cause any eveolution in the competative scene, but a change.

Spawn time: If a player can easily tell when an item will appear based on the spawn time. If you were able to control the actual spawn, you would be able to tell when the next item will appear based on the time in the match. If an item spawns every 25 sec. and the item itself spawned at 7 min. 50 sec. in the match, the next item would appear at 7 min. 25 sec. . With this method, a person would be able to get items at a controled rate.

Character Advantages/ Disadvantages: What if a character such as Fox got his hands on a Pokeball? That would be unfair wouldn't it? It's obvious that the better character will recieve the item because of his ability a manuever aound the stage.

Tactical changes: If you and your opponent were at 100% damage and you had a bat in your hand, what would you rather do? Throw the bat, or come within striking range of your enemy? Personally, I like to do what works, so I would throw the bat. To KO an opponent, it takes intelligence, dexterity, mindgames an technical skill. An item has the ability to replace the needs for these skills. A majority of strategic play would simply revolve around keeping your opponent busy until the next item spawns rather than putting emphasis on getting your oponent out of the ring. Playing with items brings balance of the conventional level, and extreme unbalance on an advanced level.

Items in general were never designed for use outside of conventional play in Smash Bros.

Playing with items can't make the scene any better, just worse. Why do you want to play with them anyway? I wouldn't want to stop a heated fight just to run for an item.

@SiD: This isn't simply based off of Melee, but on Smash Bros. and the competative scene in general. A game franchise can only evolve so much from its predescessor because it's based of the same engine. Because this game "isn't the same game" doesn't mean that the changes in the game will be drastic from the franchise in general. If anything, most of the changes are aesthetics.

If you don't think my opinion is the same, go ahead and test me. Make a topic in the Melee forums and see how much people will agree.

 

[SiD]

But saying this idea sucks in not right behavior.

And if you remember, items WERE USED IN TOURNEYS. They only took them out because of the explosding barrels/capsules.

Not to mention, this idea doesn't only apply to competitive smash, so saying it sucks it a ******* thing to say. Having the option to do this would be awesome, because at least some people, myslef included, would occasionally use it in friendlies.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

But saying this idea sucks in not right behavior.

And if you remember, items WERE USED IN TOURNEYS. They only took them out because of the explosding barrels/capsules.

Not to mention, this idea doesn't only apply to competitive smash, so saying it sucks it a ******* thing to say. Having the option to do this would be awesome, because at least some people, myslef included, would occasionally use it in friendlies.

Just a question.

How long ago was it when items where used in tournament play? Was it in Melee of N64?

Either way, the no items change has become a staple to competative smash, and I doubt that the option to play with items wouldn't be as popular as others assume.

That's just my personal take on it though.

 

[Xenesis]

I believe the last item tournament was run in 2006 for Melee.

 

[SiD]

Yeah it was in melee. And that's fine to have your opinion, I just thought it was unfair to say this idea sucks because you don't want items in tournaments.

 

[TastelessRamen]

EDIT:
dont post with out reading the first post.
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hello.

to my knowledge, this has not been suggested this before.



what if there was an option to change how items spawn on the stage to make it fair?

my idea is to make it so no matter the circumstance each character has an equal chance to get an item and skill determines who gets the item first.



picture this above the middle of the stage a smash ball starts to appear. but it is transparent, like the ghost of an item. slowly the item starts to solidify, both players see it. vying for control of the top platform below the item... or perhaps keeping the other character combed near the edge, but not killing them as you dont want them to spawn by the item when i becomes usable.



it could take anywhere from 10-60 seconds for an item to solidify and drop to the ground. both players have equel chance to prepare for it and try to get to it first.



P.S.
i origionaly thinking of this idea to allow smash balls, and thus Zsamus into brawl.




what do you guys think...





and because i dont want to make a separate thread, there should also be an option to select stocks individually to aid crew battles and handicaps

I suggested almost this exact same thing a couple weeks ago.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=98368&highlight=item&page=2

I think it's an awesome idea, needless to say. If two different people thought of it on their own, then it must be good. Right?

I gotta ask though, what's with all the item haters? Nobody is saying that items should be an element in every competitive match. I consider myself a very advanced player (wave-dashing, l cancelling, shffling ect...) and I can say that you're right, most of the time I would want items off. But what is wrong with suggesting a format that would allow items to help keep the game fresh without destroying the competitive aspect.

Yes, the matches would not be the same as non-item matches. That's why you could still do non-item matches.

I don't get it.

What's wrong with allowing players the choice of a competitive item based game as well. There could be singles, teams, and competitive (flash box) item matches at the major tournaments, it'd only be one more mode of play, i'd be willing to bet, a lot of people would play it too, if only a little bit.

 

[susu_atari]

It's a fine idea. There really ought to be an option to make items not random, so that tourneyf*gs (yes, i said it) could actually play the game properly. I've thought about it myself many times.

Just to clarify, if such an option existed, I'd probably practice Smash Bros. to tournement standard myself. I just don't like having to play a limited game. Melee isn't suited to tournements, simple as that.

 

[Team Giza]

Good points and I see your arguements but...

The competative scene is a enviornemt based on stability. Rules are established and we play based on what has been established as a "Balanced" enviornment. The curent meta-game as of now is based on the rules. Character counter picks, stage counter picks, advantages, disadvantages etc. Everything that we know evolves based on the current rules we have established.

It is a new game though, so all of those are going to change anyway. If items were to come in the timing section that the topic implies it could still work for tournaments.

The competative scene is at a complete opposition regaurding items in general because of the inevitable changes that they will bring. The exchange of attacks with skillful execution wouldn't be of a greater priority; the ability to get items from spawn points and knowing when they arrive would be in priority. Putting items into the mix wouldn't cause any eveolution in the competative scene, but a change.

Actually this is incorrect. Not all of the competitive scene is in complete opposition to items. I have meant many players at my time at tournaments who wouldn't mind it. I have become one of them, and by the way, I bought super smash bros melee specifically for competitive play. I see that items, if balanced properly, could be used in serious competitive play and according to the mods who post here now and then the people who host the big tournaments in the backroom are supposedly going to allow items in the early Brawl tournaments if crate and capsules do not explode.

Spawn time: If a player can easily tell when an item will appear based on the spawn time. If you were able to control the actual spawn, you would be able to tell when the next item will appear based on the time in the match. If an item spawns every 25 sec. and the item itself spawned at 7 min. 50 sec. in the match, the next item would appear at 7 min. 25 sec. . With this method, a person would be able to get items at a controled rate.

Yep.

Character Advantages/ Disadvantages: What if a character such as Fox got his hands on a Pokeball? That would be unfair wouldn't it? It's obvious that the better character will recieve the item because of his ability a manuever aound the stage.

Depends on how characters are balanced out and items themselves. What if when Bowser throws and items it does more damage then when Fox does? With the ten second rule the topic implies, it will also give more then enough time for both players to change there strategy around the item.

Tactical changes: If you and your opponent were at 100% damage and you had a bat in your hand, what would you rather do? Throw the bat, or come within striking range of your enemy? Personally, I like to do what works, so I would throw the bat. To KO an opponent, it takes intelligence, dexterity, mindgames an technical skill. An item has the ability to replace the needs for these skills. A majority of strategic play would simply revolve around keeping your opponent busy until the next item spawns rather than putting emphasis on getting your oponent out of the ring. Playing with items brings balance of the conventional level, and extreme unbalance on an advanced level.

This is brawl and not melee, items may have different properties on hit. Throwing the bat will get you a bit of an advantage but with the rule that the bat needed 10 seconds to drop the other player should be more than ready for that to happen.

Items in general were never designed for use outside of conventional play in Smash Bros.

In melee I don't even think they put much thought into items, just though them in last minutes without even trying to balance how they work into the overall gameplay. Again this could change in Brawl.

Playing with items can't make the scene any better, just worse. Why do you want to play with them anyway? I wouldn't want to stop a heated fight just to run for an item.

Most of the time you don't, even in melee when a lot of items were powerful. Have you seen item tournaments with good players, they are quite interesting. The only real problem that comes from it is some edge guarding issues and the exploding boxes and capsules... stuff that easily could be fixed in Brawl.

@SiD: This isn't simply based off of Melee, but on Smash Bros. and the competative scene in general. A game franchise can only evolve so much from its predescessor because it's based of the same engine. Because this game "isn't the same game" doesn't mean that the changes in the game will be drastic from the franchise in general. If anything, most of the changes are aesthetics.

Even though this isn't directed at me I will reply to it anyway. Melee and SSB64 were much more rushed then Brawl is. It is possible that items will be more balanced this time, exploding capsules/boxes have the possibility to be removed, and the trajectory on item hit could easily change (this actually happened from 64 to melee too, maybe brawl will do it right).

If you don't think my opinion is the same, go ahead and test me. Make a topic in the Melee forums and see how much people will agree.

But the topic is strictly about items in Brawl. It is kind of stupid to go either way on this. I don't want to push items into it if they are as bad as the problems that melee items can cause. But I don't want to rule them out right away since we don't really know if they will fix the balance issues.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Thanks for the response Team Giza.