GrownManJones
Smash Cadet
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- Oct 3, 2014
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A TOs perspective on venue fee whiners.
- Thread starter BombsOnBombs
- Start date
Maybe I'm just a stubborn old man, but I grew up with Smash tournaments being a community-driven initiative that was ran by valued community members and volunteers for the love of the game and community. Having people do it for profit just seems distasteful and tarnishes my view of the Smash community. My opinion of course comes from being a TO for my region for nearly 8 years running weekly locals of upwards to 100 players (I have described in more detail of my experiences in a previous post).
I understand seeking profits for organizations like EVO and APEX for obvious reasons, but for local tournaments there will always be an alternative available where hosts do not pocket any amount of the admission costs and community building is the primary initiative.
I understand seeking profits for organizations like EVO and APEX for obvious reasons, but for local tournaments there will always be an alternative available where hosts do not pocket any amount of the admission costs and community building is the primary initiative.
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Tin Man
Smash Hero
Seems like a controversial topic.
I think that a TO can make a profit while keeping the growth of the community as its main goal.
Just like any business, they usually need to re-invest a majority of their earnings into their industry in order to make more coin. Restaurants will always need to purchase more food, retailers will need to grab more stock, and events are going to have re-occurring costs as well. And since profit would rely on a sufficient level of service from the TO, it can essentially ensure that they perform to a certain standard which can prove to be good for the community.
Beyond that, it also allows the TO to generate resources that they can use to host larger events while getting more people on board with their initiatives which is also good for the community. Pretty much most of the entities in the community that you see nowadays re-invest to be able to keep going and growing (VGBC, Apex, CT, EVO, CEO etc). They wouldn't be where they are if they didn't. In fact you could say that they rely on it for the success of their businesses.
That being said, if a TO doesn't decide to invest essentially a majority of the income to the community, their series will not really grow. And I imagine that it will take more than just money to motivate someone to TO consistently in the first place. A certain level of desire for the position is needed or else their effort may not be enough for them to successfully run a tournament.
I think that a TO can make a profit while keeping the growth of the community as its main goal.
Just like any business, they usually need to re-invest a majority of their earnings into their industry in order to make more coin. Restaurants will always need to purchase more food, retailers will need to grab more stock, and events are going to have re-occurring costs as well. And since profit would rely on a sufficient level of service from the TO, it can essentially ensure that they perform to a certain standard which can prove to be good for the community.
Beyond that, it also allows the TO to generate resources that they can use to host larger events while getting more people on board with their initiatives which is also good for the community. Pretty much most of the entities in the community that you see nowadays re-invest to be able to keep going and growing (VGBC, Apex, CT, EVO, CEO etc). They wouldn't be where they are if they didn't. In fact you could say that they rely on it for the success of their businesses.
That being said, if a TO doesn't decide to invest essentially a majority of the income to the community, their series will not really grow. And I imagine that it will take more than just money to motivate someone to TO consistently in the first place. A certain level of desire for the position is needed or else their effort may not be enough for them to successfully run a tournament.
GrownManJones
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2014
- Messages
- 50
Deleted comment.
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Tin Man
Smash Hero
It isn't a sudden development though. There are entities that have been profiting of gamers (and specifically smashers) for years now as well. And generally in life, people can find success by pursuing mutually beneficial endeavors.
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Most of these people would be spending all day playing anyway. Making a few bucks is icing on the cake.
I don't know if people that can't even attend a tournament without making an ass of themselves could handle running one.
GrownManJones
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2014
- Messages
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Deleted comment.
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Anyone can do most things. Some get it done. I respect TOs a lot and even if you didn't clarify, it would be easy to tell that you've never tried.
Also, why don't people just stay home? why show up knowing the terms and then cry? That kind of goes against the claim that there is an excess of free tournaments all over town.
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GrownManJones
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2014
- Messages
- 50
You literally don't know who I am at all. I have ran many tournaments in my life time just not for Smash bros. I used to work at a Gamestop and I hosted their silly tournaments and have had over 50 people in them. I also worked in a card store and have hosted tournaments many, many, many times.
Thanks for letting me know that you know nothing
btw way to ignore my challenge.All i know about you is that you joined this month and have worked at gamestop. you think im just going to walk into a match against the next evo champion!?Thanks for letting me know that you know nothing
GrownManJones
Smash Cadet
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- Oct 3, 2014
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Ashkon Honardoost
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2014
- Messages
- 13
I'm personally fine with a TO making a profit as long as the tournament is well run. TO's often get very little respect for the hardwork they do. I don't however like tournaments that are obvious cashgrabs (fixed prize pools etc)
M@v
Subarashii!
Preach my TO brethren, Preach!
TO's always get respect, when they volunteer their time, and do an amazing job.
TO's get A LOT of respect from the community, at all levels.
Ex: Juggleguy, CrimsonBlur, KishSquared, etc
Logsmash
Smash Journeyman
I've never hosted or been to a Smash tournament before (my experiences with the attitudes of "competitive Smashers" in general have been off-putting), but personally I'm surprised to hear that torunaments cost so little to enter. If the problem attendees have with the entry cost is that half goes to venue fee/administration, then make it 15 dollars and put 10 in the pot, 5 in the venue/pocket. If they expect food and drink, adjust costs so that those are covered as well.
People have been mentioning that TOing is essentially volunteer work, and that they shouldn't be making money. But the thing is, TOs are already investing their time as a resource to help the community grow. Why should they also have to invest their own money to pay for food, set-ups, or other expenses? I don't know about the rest of you, but I can't remember ever having to pay the costs of an organization just so I could volunteer for them. In this case of the game store especially, if that same space could be used for a MtG or other tournament where the business would actually make some kind of profit, why should that space be made available to Smashers if they are going to end up costing the business money?
If TOs aren't running tournaments then there is no scene, so paying them a little bit so that a scene can exist seems like a fair deal, particularly with such modest costs. If I ever do attend a Smash tournament I will be glad to pay an entry+venue+food+profit cost if necessary, because all the Smashers tossing a little money into the tournaments is what makes a scene grow.
People have been mentioning that TOing is essentially volunteer work, and that they shouldn't be making money. But the thing is, TOs are already investing their time as a resource to help the community grow. Why should they also have to invest their own money to pay for food, set-ups, or other expenses? I don't know about the rest of you, but I can't remember ever having to pay the costs of an organization just so I could volunteer for them. In this case of the game store especially, if that same space could be used for a MtG or other tournament where the business would actually make some kind of profit, why should that space be made available to Smashers if they are going to end up costing the business money?
If TOs aren't running tournaments then there is no scene, so paying them a little bit so that a scene can exist seems like a fair deal, particularly with such modest costs. If I ever do attend a Smash tournament I will be glad to pay an entry+venue+food+profit cost if necessary, because all the Smashers tossing a little money into the tournaments is what makes a scene grow.
Food is not provided and if it is, is often sold at the venue. From experience, smashers usually go for food together during and after tournaments and it's during this time that a lot of socializing and community relationship building happens. Set ups are brought by community members.
I enjoy volunteering to run and organize tournaments, as do a large number of players in my community. We get together to put together an event, players often help out to have events run smoothly. I guess in my region no one is running smash to turn a profit. We all have careers and other things in life where we earn an income, and smash is a hobby and community experience that we share on our time off. When money is required, we make sure that we are fully transparent about where it goes, such as venue costs, printing posters, meeting university club fees, etc. There will be players willing to step up as community leaders and many players will then follow suit.
At a local scale, It's a community effort by the community, for the community.
I enjoy volunteering to run and organize tournaments, as do a large number of players in my community. We get together to put together an event, players often help out to have events run smoothly. I guess in my region no one is running smash to turn a profit. We all have careers and other things in life where we earn an income, and smash is a hobby and community experience that we share on our time off. When money is required, we make sure that we are fully transparent about where it goes, such as venue costs, printing posters, meeting university club fees, etc. There will be players willing to step up as community leaders and many players will then follow suit.
At a local scale, It's a community effort by the community, for the community.
Morbi
Scavenger
Whining about whiners is always productive and fun! Honestly, I would probably not attend an event with a venue fee, but that is my prerogative. Obviously there is nothing inherently wrong with venue fees, I have no idea why anyone would complain about such if they were informed prior that there was a venue fee (and that should always be the assumption). If they do not like it, they do not need to participate. Simple, too simple perhaps.
B0NK
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,282
lol
If you're TOing to make a few bucks, you might as well just spend your time doing something else.
TOing is not a job for anyone, it will never be unless you're picked up by MLG or similar. If you want to actually profit off of tourneys ever, open up your own LAN center/Card Shop/Video Game Store of sorts. (Though your man source of income wouldn't be tourneys then).
The TOs who actually make money at the end are fortunate enough to be the biggest TOs in the community. Even then, they don't make any money off of their locals, they're just lucky enough to be able to host a successful national every now and then. (Not something easy to do, it's really difficult to put so much down for a giant venue and know you'll at least break even). In the long run, even the most successful TOs are still only breaking even.
TOing isn't for everyone, it's for those that legitimately want to grow their community and don't mind the work it takes to run a tourney. In fact, successful TOs rarely see it as work cause they enjoy it.
I don't think TOs should take a loss, but hey, it happens to all TOs at one point or another. That's just the nature of TOing.
afk
pants the terrible
Smash Cadet
people have such a lack of sportsmanship.they don't want to converse with the admins because of their lack of self appraised worth, so they back off and feel like they are just another piece of the crowd and not a person.
let me tell you something:
we are all important. the admins are just as important as you are and they deserve the respect and money they get for their effort and passions.
don't be cynical or snobby about fees because we all need to contribute to this. we are all in it together.
let me tell you something:
we are all important. the admins are just as important as you are and they deserve the respect and money they get for their effort and passions.
don't be cynical or snobby about fees because we all need to contribute to this. we are all in it together.
BombsOnBombs
Smash Cadet
Yeah, I have enough setups so people bringing them is actually a burden since I have no place to put them. I had a lot of people who were shocked by this when they showed up with their CRT in their arms, but the tournaments weren't so big that we needed 10+ setups, the 8 I had was plenty. Instead, I offered to waive venue fees for people who brought food and drink. When nobody even bothered to do that, and then had the audacity to give me ****, I have to admit that I was a little more than livid and I probably didn't handle it well.
It was pretty clearly advertised, not to mention consistent since I did the same structure every time. What blows my mind is that there are grown-ass adults that go out into the world with only $5 in their pockets. If that's all the money you have in the world, you should really just stay home.
There isn't much. I mean, nobody is asking you to be a shining beacon of morality for the community, just be a decent human being while you're there.
1.) Be on time. Unfortunately you aren't special. If the tournament is set to start at noon and you show up at 12:30, do not be upset that it started without you. It would be unfair for the TO to hold everyone else up because you couldn't be bothered to be on time.
2.) Be respectful of how much goes into running a tournament. This means not sitting around playing friendlies on setups that are being used for the tourney, being responsible for where you're supposed to be when your match starts, etc. Don't make people hunt you down.
3.) If you can bring something, (food, setup, recording equipment) let the TO know ahead of time if you can. They'll appreciate it a ton if they know what to expect.
4.) Give legitimate feedback. If you didn't like how something was done, let them know after the tournament is over. You don't have to be whiny about it, just say "Hey, this was kind of inconvenient/I didn't like it/it could be done better if..." I wouldn't have minded constructive criticism in the least.
I agree with some of the stuff the original poster said, but the original poster is also being a whiner as well.
Its important to find an appropriate venue for the community you are in. I would gladly pay a venue fee to recoup costs for renting the actual venue. that is what the venue fee should be for in the smash community. Its not to recoup time/money for setups/tvs. That was the TO's choice to volunteer just like any one else could have, except recouping costs for them means the TO is literally pocketing money due to an increase in his own assets. In my experience in the smash community, the community is extremely helpful for bringing setups and even helping out TOing. If you don't enjoy hosting smash tournaments like many people are willing to, then you really shouldn't be hosting tournaments. For some tournaments I have been a part of, both TOing and helping out in my local area have had 100% free venue. We didnt not charge and additional moneygrabbing "venue fee" regardless of all the hard work and hours the members would have spent hosting it. In order to encourage setups at larger tournaments, we had the policy that a setup gives a few dollars off, regardless whether we use it or not, and all the money goes into the pot for the players. In this same sense, if there was a venue fee and the number of players exceeded the amount required for the venue, I would put the rest into the pot and not pocket it. I would put the players and the smash community first, as TOing is a volunteer job i would enjoy helping out for in the community.
Its important to find an appropriate venue for the community you are in. I would gladly pay a venue fee to recoup costs for renting the actual venue. that is what the venue fee should be for in the smash community. Its not to recoup time/money for setups/tvs. That was the TO's choice to volunteer just like any one else could have, except recouping costs for them means the TO is literally pocketing money due to an increase in his own assets. In my experience in the smash community, the community is extremely helpful for bringing setups and even helping out TOing. If you don't enjoy hosting smash tournaments like many people are willing to, then you really shouldn't be hosting tournaments. For some tournaments I have been a part of, both TOing and helping out in my local area have had 100% free venue. We didnt not charge and additional moneygrabbing "venue fee" regardless of all the hard work and hours the members would have spent hosting it. In order to encourage setups at larger tournaments, we had the policy that a setup gives a few dollars off, regardless whether we use it or not, and all the money goes into the pot for the players. In this same sense, if there was a venue fee and the number of players exceeded the amount required for the venue, I would put the rest into the pot and not pocket it. I would put the players and the smash community first, as TOing is a volunteer job i would enjoy helping out for in the community.
BombsOnBombs
Smash Cadet
Oh, okay, so now I'm not just volunteering but I should also be footing the bill, too. What an abusive relationship that seems like.
Here's the thing, what if I told you that the venue fee doesn't really even cover the venue? A lot of venue fees at stores are generous because of the fact that they're aiming to also make money off of concessions. When a smash player walks up to my counter, asks for a water, and then when the employee asks for money the guy says "I don't have to pay, I paid a venue fee" the sense of entitlement is now over the line. (This is an actual thing that happened more than once, by the way.)
I mean, it came down to this; if people wanted to continue enjoying the service we provided, it wasn't going to be free. We're a ****in' business. They abused the already low price to the point that we've decided as a group that it isn't worth our time and money. If someone else can convince a local business to do something for nothing, all the power to them, but we won't be taken advantage of.
Magic players, and to a larger extent board game players at least pay for the food and space that they consume. We'll be dedicating our time and space to them.
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Tin Man
Smash Hero
I must say, I'm not under the impression that a TO can/should rely on the community for setups. Some areas are completely dead and relying on the community can be extremely inconsistent.
Additionally
Regardless about how anyone feels on both ends (TOing is volunteer work vs paying to volunteer being an abusive relationship) the fact of the matter is TOing is already a business as mentioned before (large events/sponsors/other entities that make money off it) so it's inconsistent to say that it isn't :/
Additionally
Regardless about how anyone feels on both ends (TOing is volunteer work vs paying to volunteer being an abusive relationship) the fact of the matter is TOing is already a business as mentioned before (large events/sponsors/other entities that make money off it) so it's inconsistent to say that it isn't :/
B0NK
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,282
Yeah it's a business, but it's a business that you start off breaking even or taking many losses before it becomes profitable. Even then, your location is a huge factor, just like any business.
I don't think it's the equivalent of volunteer work. If I was TOing as volunteer work, I would likely hold a charity event since more money going to charity is a better cause than money going to only top players just for "community growth."
I just feel that expecting a profit from TOing Smash is unrealistic. It's the same as expecting to live off of playing at Smash tournaments to me. It's almost impossible in the long run, and more likely than not, no one in our community actually is doing that. Aspiring TOs and players have to realize that it isn't always as it appears for top players and top TOs. They have a life outside of Smash too.
If providing food or lowering your venue fee is what it takes to grow your community in a small region, you may have to accept that as a TO. Essentially, TOing is about as profitable as volunteer work. Whether it is volunteer work or not.
I'd love to see a day when venues like bars pay to have TOs set up a free tourney, like there is for poker and trivia. But I believe it'll be a long time until smash is that mainstream.
afk again
I don't think it's the equivalent of volunteer work. If I was TOing as volunteer work, I would likely hold a charity event since more money going to charity is a better cause than money going to only top players just for "community growth."
I just feel that expecting a profit from TOing Smash is unrealistic. It's the same as expecting to live off of playing at Smash tournaments to me. It's almost impossible in the long run, and more likely than not, no one in our community actually is doing that. Aspiring TOs and players have to realize that it isn't always as it appears for top players and top TOs. They have a life outside of Smash too.
If providing food or lowering your venue fee is what it takes to grow your community in a small region, you may have to accept that as a TO. Essentially, TOing is about as profitable as volunteer work. Whether it is volunteer work or not.
I'd love to see a day when venues like bars pay to have TOs set up a free tourney, like there is for poker and trivia. But I believe it'll be a long time until smash is that mainstream.
afk again
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You arent supposed to be footing the bill. The venue fee should just go to paying the venue, and other costs should not be subsidized. Yes, im well aware a lot of stores are there to make money of concessions, merchandise, and enticing people to go to the store.
You are basically attacking instances of an individual being bad, which most would agree is bad and then claiming something else about the venue fee and being taken advantage of. People should not expect food for the venue cost. I dont see a distinction between magic and board game players and smash players that would determine whether one demographic is willing to pay for food. If there is a venue fee, then people should pay for it. If there is food, then they should pay for that as well. It has nothing to do with smash or magic or board gaming people.
You claim that people are "abusing the low price point." I don't see how anyone can abuse a low price point. This is just a ridiculous complaint.
You arent being taken advantage of at all. you are just whining and being butthurt. If you/your group is not making enough profit and thats your groups goal, then don't run smash tournaments if the other games make a better profit. Thats such an easy decision to make with how few profit you claim to be making. As for management/people skills, you/your group are clearly lacking. If someone says "I don't have to pay, I paid a venue fee," why havent you confronted this person. If more than one person has done this, why haven't you made this clear at tournaments. Whining about your local community to the internet does much less than actually communicating what and why you have rules to your local community of whatever hobby, be it magic, smash or board gaming.
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Agreed. Many smash players may come from perspectives where this is the norm, though, so it demands communication.
Agreed again. I don't think we should demonize the rare TO who makes money, nor give undue sympathy to those who managed an event poorly and lost money--or worse, sabotaged the pot.
I can't emphasize enough how much communication is key to everyone arriving and leaving happy.
Alex Strife
Smash Hero
Hi all!
I think the short answer to a lot of this ( just skimmed as I am at work) is just do what you love.
In the end anything I run is for the community not to fill pockets. At the same time I know there are costs/budgets/etc that go into an event that make it impossible to do for free at times ( I won't count Apex cause of the size ).
What I always urge new TOs to do is think ahead. Do not think about one event think about the first 3-5 events that you are doing. Why are you doing events and how do you want to help the community after that first event? Make a budget and see about creating a great experience in the space you have.
I think the short answer to a lot of this ( just skimmed as I am at work) is just do what you love.
In the end anything I run is for the community not to fill pockets. At the same time I know there are costs/budgets/etc that go into an event that make it impossible to do for free at times ( I won't count Apex cause of the size ).
What I always urge new TOs to do is think ahead. Do not think about one event think about the first 3-5 events that you are doing. Why are you doing events and how do you want to help the community after that first event? Make a budget and see about creating a great experience in the space you have.
I wonder if everyone saying the TO should forfeit their profit and solely do what they do for the love of the game would say the same thing to everyone placing top 3.
BombsOnBombs
Smash Cadet
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm not even sure how this makes sense.
Please elaborate so i can better understand your point of view.
This makes absolutely no sense.
All I have to say is, any tournament host who wants to profit off the (local) tournaments they host, get a real job to find real income. There's plenty of volunteers (myself included) who are willing to take your place.
The fact that the op has so many likes is disgusting. This community is no longer the community I have grown up with.
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Upwards to a 100 players at each event. Smashers coming together to put on an amazing tournament with the lead of a handful of community leaders and tournament organizers. Thousands of dollars in cash prizes split amongst the top 3/5/8/16, even more have been donated to charities. Over my 8 years as a TO for local-sized, provincial-sized, and national-sized tournaments, I have made $0. But I've made and experienced more than I can even begin to write down.
That's Smash to me.
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BombsOnBombs
Smash Cadet
Are you implying that I don't have a real job because I think my time is worth money? Are you being intentionally obtuse? It's clear that you don't like my opinion, but attacking me personally is a joke. Grow up.
The fact that the community is changing beneath you probably suggests that it wasn't inherently structured well to begin with. People want to see Smash on a bigger stage, and the freeloading attitude needs to go if it's ever going to get to that point. It's a burden.
Clearly there aren't many volunteers willing to take my place, because the tournament scene here is dying, and the playerbase is the reason.
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Astraea31
Smash Apprentice
Hey! I see you acquired our player Lights/Foot. He just moved there. How's he doing? He was like our 3rd best PM player lol.
Upwards to a 100 players at each event. Smashers coming together to put on an amazing tournament with the lead of a handful of community leaders and tournament organizers. Thousands of dollars in cash prizes split amongst the top 3/5/8/16, even more have been donated to charities. Over my 8 years as a TO for local-sized, provincial-sized, and national-sized tournaments, I have made $0. But I've made and experienced more than I can even begin to write down.
That's Smash to me.
Your tournament entrants have invested a lot of time, effort, energy, and resources to get to their current skill level. The best of these players are rewarded with payouts. TOs do the same for what they contribute to the community, and let's face it, without them, players would have no means to be receiving prizes in the first place.
TOs and players both do what they do because they love the game. But let's not pretend there's no double standard - when the former isn't compensated, he or she is simply told they're a piece of **** for wanting compensation of any kind. When the latter isn't compensated, even in the most extenuating of circumstances, it's the TO who is, once again, made into a pariah.
People in this thread have a hard time accepting that the smash community takes TOs for granted. (No, seriously, think of everyone who complains about tournaments and were coincidentally absent during tournament setup? For a community that thinks everyone should be grateful for the opportunity to do thankless volunteer work, I sure don't see many of you doing it. Do you guys think the "house cut" option in Tio is just there for decoration or something?)
I'm a TO for Smash 64 (in one of only 5 active regions for the game), I purposely charge a low venue fee to help out poorer entrants, I invested a lot of time and personal funds into promoting my local smash community, doing complete tournament uploads for melee and 64, building usb adapters for keyboard players, etc etc. I might be the only mainstream TO in my region who doesn't see a penny for my efforts, which is my choice to directly benefit my players. The other TOs think i'm nuts for this. I do appreciate the few people who at least take the time to thank me for my efforts, but there are more people who show their respect by stealing my equipment and personal belongings, ****ing around with my uploads on a community-based tournament archive, holding up bracket for no reason, complaining about tournament dates and then not showing up when I change it for them, etc etc. It's mostly thankless work that people have no idea how they're making it needlessly difficult for the TO, and once you tell them, start getting offended in threads like this and going off about how we should just be happy for the opportunity.
I am the team lead for the TO team of /r/smashbros. They are all volunteers. I make a concentrated effort to encourage and show appreciation for their work, especially when extreme circumstances arise where they need to think fast on their feet. It's the least I can do to counterbalance unrealistic criticisms from people who, once again, never offered to help to begin with.
I'm not looking to be compensated for my efforts, and am not about to start. But the attitudes in this thread toward TOs who are understandably less generous with their time and energy is so disappointing it'd be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.
Your glasses might be a little more rose-tinted than your choice of font colour.
Hundreds of entrants at apex, guess how many I saw volunteering to help set up the night before?
We had 2 years of no smash 64 tournaments in my region until I started hosting.
Plenty of volunteers, indeed!
If this isn't the community you grew up with, it's not for the reasons you think.
Jams.
+15 Attack
He's Watermelons022 now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I would say he's in the top tier of P:M players in the region, but it's hard to say where he stands exactly as the top P:M players are pretty close, apart from the top 2.
@
victra♥
I don't think it's fair to compare Alberta's situation with those of other communities. Due to the work of community leaders such as yourself and fortunate circumstances, we've grown into a financially sustainable and volunteer-driven community that's free of most of these problems. However, that doesn't mean that these aren't issues for other regions, as indicated by the comments in this thread. Personally, I think that TOing can be a difficult and stressful job and I don't mind TOs being compensated for their hard work (within reason); however, this isn't really a discussion in our community because we've got a lot of motivated people willing to share the burden of TOing, as well as the means to host tournaments without a financial burden on any individual.
BombsOnBombs
Smash Cadet
I'm thankful for the fact that I never had any of my stuff go missing, but then again with the way I had everything set up it would be pretty difficult to walk away with anything. If anybody had, however, it would have made the choice that much easier.
Sorry about that, though. That sucks.
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Tin Man
Smash Hero
Toronto :'(
Sorry to hear that too. Regardless what you decide to do in the future, I'm still very impressed with the feats you've accomplished ^_^. Better security does need to be implemented as a community grows. Definitely don't wanna try leaving something behind at any nationals lol
.