A tier list will ruin the Diversity of tournaments.

[Deathcarter]

NOTE: I partially understand why tier lists exists. Some characters are better than others and that needs to be pointed out. I also want to say that the vast majority of people who are against a tier list for brawl don't even go to tournaments and that tiers overall do not apply to them.

I actually support a tier list. Something about rankings just makes me feel better inside. The one drawback to tier lists is newer tournament players who have not picked a main may go to the top tiers instead of their favorite character. This happened in melee with all the Foxes and I am afraid this will happen in Brawl.

This does not include those players who are sticking to their main now or those who choose their main because they like them or that the character fits their playing style (even if they are top tier). I talking about the players who pick a (potential) top tier to have the best chance of winning.

Honestly, I hope people newer to the tournament scene and people familiar in the tournament scene go to tournaments for the experience and the chance to play better players. If your primary goal is to win a tournament, then you would be more likely imo to use a character because they are top tier.

I just hope people stick with their favorite character and not switch to a top tier just to win.

 

[Ekul]

There's always low/mid tier tournaments.

 

[DrewbyDewby]

i guess that's true,
but once people go to tournaments they'll figure out themselves whos good and who isnt,

 

[ph00tbag]

Tier lists cannot ruin tournament diversity, they can only reflect a ruined tournament diversity due to a character that is truly broken.

 

[choknater]

In the end it is up to the players who choose their characters according to their own will.

If players choose according to the tiers, more power to them.

There are always gonna be those low tier enthusiasts who stay true to their main for the sake of sentimental value or favoritism.

A tier list would not ruin brawl tournaments, that's a flawed observation. Besides, a lot of characters are more balanced anyway!

 

[J0K3R]

A tier list is a statistic that changes, and maybe the n00bs playstyle is more of a Link than a (overpowered character). I played a melee tourney at my school and there was only one fox, and most people's mains were mid-low tier. Tiers are trends and shouldn't govern your playstyle/main.

 

[Crizthakidd]

the tier list is way better this time tho a looot more balanced. there was this guy i met on the boards whos suc ha beast with game and watch like WTH why coudlnt i beat him. but a tier list will come out regardless. its all good stuff

 

[Brightside6382]

the tier list is way better this time tho a looot more balanced. there was this guy i met on the boards whos suc ha beast with game and watch like WTH why coudlnt i beat him. but a tier list will come out regardless. its all good stuff

stop talking this game is unbalanced up the ***. MK and G&W are going to run the tourney scene

 

[S_B]

It's still far too early to be nailing down tiers as well.

Melee's tierlist wasn't brought into finality until after years of tourneys.

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

stop talking this game is unbalanced up the ***. MK and G&W are going to run the tourney scene

Don't worry about it; Jigglypuff to the rescue!

 

[FiRa]

I actually went to a local tournament yesterday and it made me laugh..35 characters to pick from and I might have seen 5 throughout most of the tournament. Fox/Ike/Marth mainly though. So sad when they were getting beat by Olimar and Wario.

 

[RBinator]

\The one drawback to tier lists is newer tournament players who have not picked a main may go to the top tiers instead of their favorite character. This happened in melee with all the Foxes and I am afraid this will happen in Brawl.

It's already happened, without a tier list. At the GameStop tournaments I went to, people mostly picked characters they felt like would do the best, not just playing as who they wanted to for the sake of liking that character.

 

[Shoop70]

I think it's too early to worry about this...also I think Brawl gave quite a few more characters better opportunities...balanced? Not entirely. Moreso than melee? I think so

 

[Syde7]

I partially agree. I started off in Melee maining Link. I loved him, and it was fun to play as him. But making it out of pools was a task with him, and advancing deep into a tournament with him was next to impossible.

And so I picked up Sheik. Why? My exact reasonings where because I "needed a High Tier wh*re in my life". And my performance improved.

All that being said, winning is always more fun than loosing. I enjoyed *going* to the tournaments and meeting people and playing better people, but in the end it was a lot better to have WON.
I did enjoy being the "Link guy" at tournaments, but I moreso enjoyed winning. If there wasn't a tier list, I would have had no idea as to who to pick up to be more competitive- but at the same time because of that list, there were tons of foxes/marths/sheiks and the like. So, its a double edged sword.

With brawl having 9-10 more characters, and each one being more *overall* balanced than in melee, I don't think a tier list will effect things so much. I have a feeling that even w. a list there are going to be obvious counters (a fair amount) to 'top tier' characters, and those counters will be mid-low tier.

Also because of the numbers there should be more chars in the top/high tiers than in melee. So, while you may see the same characters, it might be the same 6-8 characters instead of the same 3-4 characters.

 

[funkdoc23]

I definitely agree. Three smash games have been on three different consoles, usually with a seven year life span. Brawl is still in its formative stages and it appears there is a greater character balance than in melee so we'll see.

 

[redgreenblue]

the tier list is way better this time tho a looot more balanced. there was this guy i met on the boards whos suc ha beast with game and watch like WTH why coudlnt i beat him. but a tier list will come out regardless. its all good stuff

Game and Watch is almost certainly going to be Upper tier...

 

[Crappular]

Tournaments determine the tier list, not the other way around.

 

[Taymond]

This, I think, is a misconception. A tier list will only reinforce any discrepancies that already exist in tournament diversity. While it is sometimes possible to argue that the tier list reinforces itself by drawing new players to the upper tiers, and such an argument could probably be made for Melee, the differences between the tiers in Brawl seem like they will be less staggering, because of the general way Brawl was made. Loads of games have tierlists. In some, it's suicide not to play as top/god tier characters, in others, low and even bottom tier characters have a feasible chance at winning, particularly if they have a couple good matchups against top tiered characters.

Brawl, I believe, will be one of those games where it's less necessary to play the high tiers. Sure, some new players might automatically pick higher tiered characters, but anyone who's taken the time to get to now the game pretty well before deciding, and anyone who's put in the research to realize the gap is less profound in Brawl, will make their decision independently.

 

[BigRick]

Tier list or not, the diversity will always be affected because ppl will pick the character that feels the strongest.

There is no tier list right now, but you still see a majority of Pit, Marth, MK players

 

[shadydentist]

The tier list is not the cause. The tier list is merely a reflection of whos winning. People will naturally gravitate towards good characters. All the tier list does is speed this process along.

 

[Ørion]

I dont feel that a tier will occur in brawl on the same level in melee. From playing every character, it seems to me there will be a lower tier consisting of about 5-10 characters, and an upper tier with everyone else. This will keep diversity and force people to get strategies for every character.

 

[E_Ress]

Diversity, as the TC defines it, will never be even. Preferences have already been developed, and were being developed before release. Ike and Marth had a much larger fan(boy) base than, say, Wario and now the difference is evident.

The addition of a tier list for Brawl will not cause a great change in diversity, certainly less than it did for Melee. As Taymond says, it will only reinforce the general consensus. That being said, I agree with the point of view that a defined ranking of the characters will lead to new players choosing the best. This isn't any different than the current phenomenon (Pit and MK mains know), though, and all a tier list does is strengthen it.

Fortunately, the Smash community is full of zealous low-tier mains who go against the mold. A tier list will have an impact on diversity, but not as frightening of one as some are making it out to be.

 

[Gary]

Tier lists are based on tournament results, so a tier list will only show us a "ruined" diversity, not cause it. But does it really matter? Brawl seems to be a fairly balanced game, so that a character can beat every other character given a high enough skill level. So what if there are lots of high tiers flying around? Just get good with your character and beat them.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Dude, I had my characters picked out before I knew what a "Tier List" was, and stuck with them. Trying others out along the way. Anyhow, back on subject.

For Brawl, a Tier list won't make much of a difference. I mean, by all means of what everyone has been saying, there's no way that Peach should be able to beat Diddy, Pit, Ike, Marth, etc. I **** with Peach, *shrugs* I play Peach because I like Peach. (Melee or Brawl). Sad thing is, when it comes to Brawl, I can play LITERALLY whoever I feel like, and still gain victories. This is due to the fact that the game is just way too balanced. I can get away with doing gay stuff and mindgaming people to gain victories with characters I can't use or don't care about. There are a few truly broken characters, but, in essence, a Tier list wouldn't really affect anything.

People already know who they're going to use when they see the game. At my gamestop tourney...god....I was one of the few unique players. I saw a bunch of Fox, Diddy, MK, Pit, and Lucas players. I went Peach, my other friend went Zelda/shiek. There was almost an Ike Ditto, and almost a Link ditto. (they missed each other 'cuz they lost) Tier lists won't affect Brawl....people know who they want. It's cut and dry with Brawl. Most people in Melee play characters because they like them. Don't just automatically assume they did it because of the Tier list. BEFORE there was a Tier list, there was always an unspeakable amount of Fox/Falco players, Marth Players, and Shiek Players. People thought Peach sucked until some Peach players brought her game into light, and even now, people still thinks she sucks and don't use her. *shrugs*

Btw, I didn't just start playing Fox and Marth because I was told. I never liked Fox...and only ever played Marth if I couldn't win with Roy. (This is before I found out about advanced stuff) I always knew Marth was better, but I couldn't stand using him. I always dabbled in Shiek...just never cared. I wanted to play Peach from the begining, and despite the problems I'm having since I seem to end up against a lot of annoying Marths/Foxes, I still play her. I didn't give up Roy because he sucks.


People will choose their characters.


"Crank that Roy"

 

[really_calm]

I sincerely applaud the people who choose the characters they like and stick with them.

But for the people who've been playing since before brawl and play to win or the people who just got into brawl and don't like to lose, they're "always going to look for that edge." (cookie if you get the reference ^^)

I'm trying really hard to stick with DDD cause he's a funny mother ****er and I love his play style. He's buckets of fun. But everytime I'm easily combo-ed because being big and slow, I have the urge to pick up a more efficient character. And the most efficient characters will be at the top of the tier list.

I HOPE the tier list will be delayed for as long as possible. It will prevent the competitive spirit in many, but not all, players to succumb to temptation by picking up their top tier character for the joy of winning. If the tier list is released it will cause this to happen to some degree and shrink diversity. If the tier list comes out later, then people have more time to solidify through practice their initial choices of characters and less likely to switch over to a new character immediately. ^^

(I played mario in melee, but for some reason I find him really boring in brawl =/)

 

[Deathcarter]

I can see from your guys point of view and I (somewhat) beleive there will be more tournament viable characters. My mindset was that because people were different, each player would have a different character that they were either best at or was their favorite. That would, in theory, have lead to more different characters in tournaments. I did not factor in that a character would be better on average for a new player (e.g. Marth) than others.

I do not entirely agree with that the tier list only reflects what already happens. That probably may have applied to Shiek and Marth, but Fox or Falco were not as common early on as they were after the recent melee tier lists. My beleifs do not apply to the active members of the brawl community, who have been with the game even before it was released or those who are casuals and never even go on the internet to find out more on smash but more towards the new guy who recently has gotten into smash and decides to broden his horizen on smash.

I'll just enjoy the game for now and not worry about tournament diversity until after a few major tournies.

 

[Vandom6]

way too balanced

How is that even possible?

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

i fail to see how brawl is more balanced than melee. no one has made one good point concerning this. all i see is "omg foxwhoars in melees was like OMG FAREAL" **** when they were probably just bad players who don't know what many of the low tiers actually had decent matchups vs fox because of how much you can combo him. game and watch, dk, luigi, jigglypuff.. I loved playing vs foxes with these chars. I seriously thought melee was actually a fairly balanced game for how deep it was. There were the strong characters that were popular but then there was definetly others who could compete. Best player in ny mained DK, best player in seattle mained luigi, one of best in socal mained puff, there were **** gannondorfs and docs, taj was ridiculous with mewtwo, chu was insane with pika and young link..spacies dominated some tourneys but not unless they were ridiculously good players to begin with because if you make mistakes with the spacies its easy to punish and gimp them. It just seems to me that people are saying statements with little to no backing or evidence. I believe brawl will have the exact some kind of division between tiers once the tournament scene gets going and people see what works. Its practically inevitable.

 

[AcidRain]

I agree with funkdoc. Although it's still too early for a complete tier list, it's clear that the game is more balanced than its predecessors. And because of that, there will be diversity in tourneys.

 

[Klixx]

Even if it does influence people to change their mains to high tier characters to win more it does not mean people with mid or low tier characters can not win tourneys.

Take a game like 3rd strike for instance RX plays Urien a mid tier characters and he beasts most top tier characters with no problem at all

Tier will influence people who are serious about playing but will not stop the diversity

 

[Lavos]

i fail to see how brawl is more balanced than melee. no one has made one good point concerning this. all i see is "omg foxwhoars in melees was like OMG FAREAL" **** when they were probably just bad players who don't know what many of the low tiers actually had decent matchups vs fox because of how much you can combo him. game and watch, dk, luigi, jigglypuff.. I loved playing vs foxes with these chars. I seriously thought melee was actually a fairly balanced game for how deep it was. There were the strong characters that were popular but then there was definetly others who could compete. Best player in ny mained DK, best player in seattle mained luigi, one of best in socal mained puff, there were **** gannondorfs and docs, taj was ridiculous with mewtwo, chu was insane with pika and young link..spacies dominated some tourneys but not unless they were ridiculously good players to begin with because if you make mistakes with the spacies its easy to punish and gimp them. It just seems to me that people are saying statements with little to no backing or evidence. I believe brawl will have the exact some kind of division between tiers once the tournament scene gets going and people see what works. Its practically inevitable.

I love this post. It contains 96% more reality than the rest of the posts in this topic.

 

[Catfish_Mike]

Tier list or not, the diversity will always be affected because ppl will pick the character that feels the strongest.

There is no tier list right now, but you still see a majority of Pit, Marth, MK players

This is true; how many Pit/MK/Marth players do you see who are actually any good? Every Pit I've fought has been HIYIYIYIYIYIYA! or arrow spammer, most Marths are obsessed with Down-B, and MK players spam that tornado like it's their job.

 

[VideoGamerJ]

It seems to me that even at this point a tier list is going to change constantly before it really settles. Sure, players will pick a character they think they have the best odds using, but there are still so many individual character techniques that have yet to be discovered. And Brawl's roster is so large that there are already quite a few hardcounter characters (sure to also vary with time). If people want to pigeonhole their character based on an early, primitive tier list...why not let them? To be honest, the online matches will influence what characters people want to play as just as much as the tier list will.

`Jammin' Jobus also brings up some awesome points. Those 'hardcounter' characters have always been the underdogs : )

 

[E_Ress]

i fail to see how brawl is more balanced than melee. no one has made one good point concerning this. all i see is "omg foxwhoars in melees was like OMG FAREAL" **** when they were probably just bad players who don't know what many of the low tiers actually had decent matchups vs fox because of how much you can combo him. game and watch, dk, luigi, jigglypuff.. I loved playing vs foxes with these chars. I seriously thought melee was actually a fairly balanced game for how deep it was. There were the strong characters that were popular but then there was definetly others who could compete. Best player in ny mained DK, best player in seattle mained luigi, one of best in socal mained puff, there were **** gannondorfs and docs, taj was ridiculous with mewtwo, chu was insane with pika and young link..spacies dominated some tourneys but not unless they were ridiculously good players to begin with because if you make mistakes with the spacies its easy to punish and gimp them. It just seems to me that people are saying statements with little to no backing or evidence. I believe brawl will have the exact some kind of division between tiers once the tournament scene gets going and people see what works. Its practically inevitable.

Good point (Edit: VideoGamerJ, you too).

Fox did indeed have even match-ups with low tiers and high tiers alike. Taj, Chu, Bum, and Ka all did excellent jobs bringing characters out of ambiguity and into the tournament scene. That being said, where Brawl is now it stands as unexplored and (in some peoples' eyes) untainted by imbalances. Characters are not fully developed gameplay-wise.

Consequentially, technical advantages (waveshining, pillaring, etc.) have not yet begun to dictate the characters' positions on the tier list. What they mean by "balanced" is that on the whole no one or two characters dominate (Edit:for lack of a better word, it really should be "do as well in") competitive play to the extent Fox and Falco did.

I do agree with you that over time technical advantages will be developed and we will see something similar to Melee. Fortunately, as we've both mentioned, there will be people who can overcome the tiers and still place in tournaments.

 

[Jewdo]

Tier lists cannot ruin tournament diversity, they can only reflect a ruined tournament diversity due to a character that is truly broken.

My sentiments exactly. Melee did have a tier list, and there WERE a lot of entrants using high-tier characters just because they were high-tier. However, there were always top-ten players who used characters NOT in the high tiers, who simply played with who they liked and learned how to win with them. Simply using a character who wasn't high-tier didn't doom them to failure - it just meant that they had different advantages and disadvantages from the other players. Did your state have a Bowser champion, a Ganondorf master, or a Ness destruction machine? If so, you know what I know - that terrific play doesn't come from the character, but the player behind it.

Let there be tiers. If you play with who YOU like and play them well, who is high-tier and who is low-tier won't have an impact on how your own play-style evolves. The only ways that a tier list will ruin tournament diversity are (1) if there are overly-broken characters, or (2) if everyone becomes a tier-***** when the first tier ranking is released. Just have fun, people, and don't worry about it!

 

[UltraDavidSRK]

It's weird to see people acting as if tier lists are created and not already in existence, floating somewhere out there in the Forms. Writing down a tier list is just codifying something that already exists.

 

[DiegoBlanc]

This is true; how many Pit/MK/Marth players do you see who are actually any good? Every Pit I've fought has been HIYIYIYIYIYIYA! or arrow spammer, most Marths are obsessed with Down-B, and MK players spam that tornado like it's their job.

thats right, but i dont see whats wrong with that.

i mean, when melee was out, i knew tons of players that started using mewtwo cause they tought he was super strong and all that. this was before the top tier list was created...so many of them became very good mewtwo players

im an ice climbers player...and i think im very good. i dont care if the climbers become top tiers or bottom tiers or whatever, i can still kick butts with them.

the tier list must be right, but it also depends in how good the player is.

 

[Evilpenguin]

Most serious tourney players will have a good idea of who they like/main by the time the first tier list is out.

 

[Dragonzealot]

Tiers will defiantly be harder to make in this one, due to how balanced this game is compared to Melee. Though the list wont ruin tourneys.

 

[shadydentist]

Again, everyone keeps saying the Brawl is a more balanced game. On what basis is this claim asserted?