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A struggling Toon Link user...

Kalm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
496
Location
Enterprise, Alabama
NNID
Unibias
3DS FC
1650-2449-3447
Okay, so far I've got down the projectile usage very well. However, I'm having a very hard time using Toon Link well in any melee situation against a good opponent. Once the opponent works through my projectiles I find myself constantly blocked until I'm either shield grabbed or end up leaving myself open. And I'm always afraid to try and grab because I'm severely punished do to the massive lag of whiffing a grab.

Whats the best method of keeping pressure on an opponent safely, and what are the best methods to counter pressure against you? What is Toon's fastest ground and air attacks, what are his safest?

I realize that his Bair is one of his best attacks and I'm working on it, but its proving difficult to get the Bair off in fast action situations. Is the Bair so important I need to focus on it and almost nothing else, or are there other ways to work while in close range with an opponent?
 

MrPhox

Tamed Beast
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Messages
203
Location
Boston, Ma
NNID
Mr.Phox
3DS FC
0318-7803-7610
good horizontal aerial movement
+
airdodge
+
zair
=
safe poking my friend

just keep a boomerang out and a bomb in hand
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
No matter how good you are at long range pressuring, eventually your opponent will get to you...But don't worry, Toon Link has a ton of ways to battle up close. To begin with, like very other character, he has out of shield options. Basically, you let your opponent attack your shield, and then drop it and immediately use a move to punish your opponent while they are in the lag from their attack. Generally, you want to use the most damaging moves with the most knockback to punish your opponents out of shield. Toon Link happens to have 2 semi strong attacks to punish with, his Forward Air, doing 13%, and his Usmash, doing around 15%. Both deal around the same damage, so you can use either really. However, if your opponent is in killing range, choose your attack based on the stage/position on the stage. If you are on Green Greens and you are in the middle, it doesn't make sense to Fair since the stage is pretty wide, and there are blocks blocking the middle section off from the other two sections. You're going to want to Usmash, since the ceiling is very low. Toon Link's grab can do around 10% damage if you feel like shield grabbing or you want to grab your opponent when their shield is up. Make sure to always press A to smack them once while you hold them before throwing them to achieve maximum damage. Utilt is amazing for beginning combos, however after the first few your opponent is likely to airdodge the next...Use this to your advantage by pressuring them when they land. If they airdodge into shield, you have 3 frames in between to hit them. Use this to your advantage, and attack during those 3 frames. Uair isn't really the greatest of killing moves, but definitely should be taken into consideration for juggling. The duration of this attack is what makes it so great. It stays out for awhile, making it a prime candidate to punish airdodges with. Follow their DI with your own, and you can probably hit them when as their airdodge ends, if you timed it right. Dsmash works very well for punishing rolls and spotdodges, since it hits behind and in front of you, so keep that in mind.

Toon Link is a combo machine. Mainly his Utilts and Bairs. Utilts, as stated before, can really get the damage going. You can do 2 Bairs in one shorthop, and then you have more jumps to do a few more. Again, airdodging ruins this, so play a good mixup game by predicting the airdodges, using your Uair to punishes airdodges, if you're close to the ground, land and pivot grab if they land into shield. Just remember to mix it up and keep it fresh, haha.

If you want to regain your space, there are many ways to do this. Rolling and running works if their shield is up, most of the time. If their shield is not up, you can use the jab series to quickly knock your opponent away, as it's Toon Link's fastest move and faster than a lot of moves your opponent will be using against you. Jab series also counts as 3 hits toward attack deterioration, so it will regenerate your moves quickly, and furthermore regenerates itself. You can attack their shield with an aerial, and then DI away to retreat and gain your space back...Even better, you can attack with an aerial, DI back, and before you hit the ground, shoot an arrow to prevent them from chasing you. Hot ****. Also, you can attack their shield with an aerial, DI back, and then airdodge into shield...They have literally 3 frames to punish you between your airdodge and shield. It's a very safe option.

To kill them, normally you're going to want either Usmash, Fair, or Fsmash, however the 2nd hit of Fsmash can be DI'd out of, if they DI away and jump. This makes the move much less useful, as the higher percent your opponent gets, the easier it will be for them to avoid the second hit, since the first hit will knock you farther away the higher your damage is. Basic gameplay strategies apply to getting off your killing moves. Wait for a spotdodge, Usmash when your close. If you space your Fairs in the air, you should be able to outrange a bunch of characters, so opponents may end up dying to random aerial battles. Toon Link's ground game isn't really all that stellar. He can use jab series for a quick attack with enough knockback to regain his spacing. His Hookshot outranges a lot of your opponent's attack, but shouldn't be spammed due to it's riskiness. As stated before, his Fsmash is good, but at higher percents, it's killing ability becomes more and more useless, however it's still a good attack for it's range and unpredictability. Sometimes if you hit an opponent's shield with the first attack, they let go of their shield and get hit by the second. If they shield the first attack and you know they will shield the second attack, you can simply not attack, which is a safe option. His Dsmash, while not the greatest killing move, has range. It hits in front and behind of Toon Link, making it a good option for punishing rolls.
That's taken from my general analysis thread, this is the section dealing with up close combat. Here's the thread if you're interested. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168630
 

Kalm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
496
Location
Enterprise, Alabama
NNID
Unibias
3DS FC
1650-2449-3447
Thank you very much Jes, with the lack of a "everything about Toon Link" stick I found myself at a severe loss of advanced tactics. I'm going to study your post and see what I can put to work, the RARow idea seems solid enough to make a full time tactic as well. Thanks again!
 

XxXBlueKillaXxX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Bethesda, MD
Big Combo

My Favorite combo is this...boomerang, bomb, while there stunned, pull out another bomb and jump up. Just when you are about to come down for a pogo, throw a bomb down so they cant dodge your pogo. Dont bounce on them a secomd time, Instead take out another bomb, stun them, and run up and do a down grab, followed by his two side smashes. Remember, the easiest way to land big attacks on them is to use the bomb. This srategy usually works.
 

Rawrness

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
202
Location
Cary, NC
Bair can be like combo machine but don't rely on it too much. Try Nairs as they are easier to connect and retreat with. Also try aerials -> cancelled arrows
 

YumClock

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
148
^I just noticed what your picture said, pure awesomeness.
Out of curiousity, does Jesiah even play Snake? I've never been to the Snake boards, but he's here so often I can't imagine where he gets the time to discuss any other character besides TL.
This is going to be taken as an insult, isn't it? >.<
 

samizdat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
33
One problem some people have with TL (myself included) is camping and spamming projectiles just a bit too much, and getting suddenly caught at the edge of a stage without time to boomerang (or it might be simply out of hand), or without time to draw a bomb (you'll always have enough time to throw a bomb in hand, of course, and that, along with z-drop, is what's key about the bomb metagame IMO), and they hesitate and find themselves, against a skilled player, pretty much screwed. At this point a quick bow-cancel may not be worth it, as it is punishable via precise aerials. This is what makes it hard for TL, getting stuck in situations where you don't keep the spacing and momentum changes up to a maximum.

To keep the pressure on, always be threatening to do a SH nair. A SH nair is your friend because it's easy to use (as in, you don't have to RAR, and it has a very straightforward hitbox) and very difficult to punish by using good DI away or, to mix it up, through opponents (the classic way to set up a bair combo). This DI (as well as the SH nair to bow-cancel) can really frustrate an approaching opponent, keeping them at a safe distance. Sometimes they will retreat a bit too much, or they will (better yet) get hit horizontally by a nair (that was bow-cancelled out of, nonetheless), at which point you will set up some bairs via RARing, dash and follow up with more nairs, or follow up with a projectile game. Which you choose depends on how far you've knocked back your opponent and other considerations of spacing/momentum. What's really nice about SH nair, of course, is that you can make continuous use of all three of your projectiles, as you'll be facing the opponent and not have to re-RAR, as it were, after throwing a projectile.

So, I'm basically saying that the best way to get out of those sticky situations is to learn how to avoid getting into them in the first place. This requires a dynamic game, and finding a fluid style is (I think) the hardest thing about playing TL. But nair is key in keeping up the threat (as I believe bombs are, as well)

That was a bit ranty. Hope it helps.
 

Coselm

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
548
Location
Gainesville, FL
Try to play a few matches with no projectiles. Once you are able to be a decent TL player without his projectiles, you will be so much better when you apply them. Projectiles are not all of TL, they are barely a part of him. 3 moves out of 15 or however many.

In tight situations, I find neutral a combos, up tilts, and down tilts are your best friends.
 

Kalm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
496
Location
Enterprise, Alabama
NNID
Unibias
3DS FC
1650-2449-3447
I use up tilts a lot but seldom down tilts, they seem too slow and easy to punish with not enough reward.

Thanks for the advice im going lets both of the last two posts affect my play.
 
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